FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: zukinut on June 01, 2013, 06:20:57 PM
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I posted on fordfe as well. After workin the $400 Craigslist 390 hard I was impressed by its power but it would be nice to have a little bit more power. Forgive me for the ignorant questions but I'm trying to learn.
After searching on here and throughout the web, I think a 410 build will be plenty, plus it shouldn't break the bank. I figure if I ask now I can start looking for used parts (carb, intake, etc)
I would like to build a separate engine so I can keep the truck running while doing this.
Can I use a 360 block? They are dirt cheap around here.
If I can use the 360 block can I use the rods from the 360. If not what rods should I get. I would like to use ford rods (maybe save some coin)
I know I need a 428 crank. Do I buy new or used. If new,what brand is preferred. I hear bad things about eagle in the sbf community, but have no idea if those are true. Also, how hard is it to internally balance a 428 crank? I would really like to keep my front pulley setup.
What pistons should I use? Is there a preferred brand here? I believe I should keep the cr to around 9:1 for a truck correct?
What cam do y'all recomend. WhatI makes a cam make good torque. I've studied other builds on here but for the life of me I don't understand what the numbers mean. I understand duration and lift but not lca or lsa, and I can't figure out what numbers are good for certain builds. I do know that when I messed with internationals that there was more intake lift than exhaust and they made gobs of torque.
Which intake and carb do yall recommend? I would like to use my 4100 if possible.
I think I can assemble it myself. I've assembled a few stock rebuilds but no performance stuff.
Do any of y'all know of a machine shop in east/Northeast tn that are good with fe's. I know Blair is close but is hate to bother him with a stockish build.
Thanks again for all the help. It's greatly appreciated. I've learned a lot and hope to learn tons more.
Will
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I'm in johnson city tn i use blair on some builds but i have a local shop i use a lot . If i can help you at all i will. i also have a torq. plate for fe.
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Chris thanks for the post and the pm. I'll definitely be in touch.
Anybody have any advice on building a 410 for good solid grunt.
Will
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I know, I say this a lot maybe too much but the stroker kit seems the best deal around. All new parts configured to your budget. And the 445 cubes can't be beat for about 1200 bucks. All balanced and ready to go with the crank, rods and pistons with rings. I am a believer in the shortest and most bang for the buck approach is all....Jon
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Where do you want the power?
Are you using the truck for towing?
Drag Truck?
These are the questions you have to answer for the correct cam.
A RV type cam will work great at low speed off idle to 4000ish rpm.
A big soild roller will really come on at 5000 rpm and pull hard to 8000 rpm, but may be a bit soft at 2000 rpm. ::)
Same for the intakes.
A Victor hogged out will work great in the upper rpms, but not so good down low.
The Edelbrock 390 Performer will work great in a towing truck, but will fall off a lot past 4500ish rpm.
If you have to actually buy a 428 crank you may as well step up to the 4.250 crank.
The cost is pretty much the same and the torque potential is much more with the long arm.
If you can get a good 360 block for dirt then go for it. It's a 390 block. It just has a short stroke.
The 360 rods are a no go. They are a longer and skinny rod.
It is really hard to beat a stroker kit for cost and ease. By the time you source all the bit and bites of the correct
Ford stuff and then have them machined to spec and balanced you going to be close to or even more than a kit.
Now if you find yourself a cheap (HA HA HA) 428 and rebuild it you can save a bunch.
Never under estimate a good working 390. Can be done on the cheap and make real good power.
Yes I'm a die hard 390 fan. ::)
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Just realized I left some important info out, I apologize. Building the truck for low end power for towing. If it falls on its face at 5k that's perfectly fine with me. Cruising rpm will be 3k at 70. It's a 2wd dually with a 235/85-16 rear tire and a 4.10 gear.
When it comes to cam selection what do you look for to know it will be a good cam? I've never understood how to select a cam.
I saw that the 4.250 crank kit could be gotten for a good deal, but I think thats more power than I'm gonna need, and won't it take more fuel to make more power?
I was very impressed with my 125 psi cranking pressure unknown craigslist $400 390 (the block cracked on the original 360 and that's all I could afford at the time). If I could rebuild it to make more bottom end grunt that would be fine by me. It made plenty of power on the flats but had a hard time maintaining on the steep inclines. I would rather just be able to put my foot in it than have to up/down shift a big clunky truck 4spd.
What kind of power can I get out of a 390?
Thanks for your time.
Will
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Given your intended RPM range, horsepower numbers should not be of any concern to you. You should be looking to maximize peak torque, and have that happen around 3000 RPM, if I understand your requirements correctly. For the intake manifold I think I would recommend the Edelbrock Performer 390 (not the Performer RPM). That manifold will maximize torque in the range that you are interested in. For a cam, you want a low duration, higher-than-stock lift RV or truck cam. Something like a Comp 260H would work well for you.
The reason that the stroker kits are so popular is that more cubic inches means more torque and horsepower. For your application, the additional 50 cubic inches will mean about an additional 50 lb-ft of torque. Your 390, if built as described above, will probably make around 440 lb-ft of torque. Adding the stroker kit will give you a 10% increase in that torque, which will be very noticeable. It will also take more fuel (probably about 10% more) to feed the bigger engine. So that is a tradeoff you have to consider.
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Jay,
You are correct, hp numbers mean nothing to me. Are you sayin that by building a 410 amd using the intake and cam you suggested I will be in the 440 range and if I go to a 445 it will be 10% on top of that.
I really am sorry for my ignorance but I would like to learn about this rather than jus drop my engine off at a shop and hope they understand what I want.
Thanks again
Will
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Oops, forgot that you said it was going to be a 410 and not a 390. I guess I would figure more like 455-460 lb-ft with the 410. So the gain from a stroker kit would still be significant, but not as much as I had originally stated.
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Here are a couple of builds that Barry has posted.
A 390 and a 445.
You could do these at home with some good planning and thrift.
In your case you would want to keep the compression down around 9 to 1
and a small duration cam like the 260H Jay mentioned.
http://fefordtech.com/index.php?topic=40.0
http://fefordtech.com/index.php?topic=29.0
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Here is how I would do it
1 - Pick a displacement, 390, 410, or 445, as big as your budget allows
2 - Pick a piston combo that matches the head you want to run to end up at around 9:1 static compression with no more than .010 deck clearance
3 - Pick a cam to match the RPM range, erring on the small side, but watch DCR. As a WAG for your use, a 445 will be happier with 260-ish advertised duration, a 410 will want less, and a 390 even less.
4 - Regardless of displacement, have the heads pocket, or bowl ported. The small change in port volume will not reduce torque as much as you will gain from good cylinder fill. If you want to save money on seats, go with CJ valves, valve sizes will not reduce torque, port volume again wont change significantly. Alex's Parts sells a nice combo for valves that will work great at the RPM you want
5 - Bolt a Performer 390 and a 600 Holley on it, or even a CJ or 428 PI intake would work well, especially for a 410 or 445
I recommend you internally balance, easier in the long run, but not required, but regardless whatever you do "should" be balanced
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Here are my thoughts. Tell me if I'm wrong. If I go 410 I'll have to buy a crank. If I can't find a good used 428 crank, I will have to buy One new. I get killer deals at a local speed shop. What brand should I buy. If I buy from barry it looks like there isn't that much difference between a 3.98 crank and a 4.25. I personally don't think I need the extra cubes. What do y'all think. Hell, if a 390 can make 440ft lbs, I might go that route. Also, would my best money be spent buying on of Barry's kits or can I find stock parts cheaper.
With pistons, can I use a stock 360 rod and a custom piston or will the piston be to short. Will a 390 rod work better? Which brand of piston do y'all suggest.
Which head do I look for, or will a c8 or d2 work ok? I have all the time in the world to look for parts, and I'm pretty good at it too.
What do you mean by "if you want to save money on seats, go with CJ valves". Wont cj valves need seats as well. I know absolutely nothing about heads. But want to learn.
I'm not gonna lie, I'm doing this build for 2 reasons, the truck needs more torque, and I want to learn a little about building a performance engine.
I'm gonna check out those builds now.
Thanks again for all the help
Will
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Here are my thoughts. Tell me if I'm wrong. If I go 410 I'll have to buy a crank. If I can't find a good used 428 crank, I will have to buy One new. I get killer deals at a local speed shop. What brand should I buy. If I buy from barry it looks like there isn't that much difference between a 3.98 crank and a 4.25. I personally don't think I need the extra cubes. What do y'all think. Hell, if a 390 can make 440ft lbs, I might go that route. Also, would my best money be spent buying on of Barry's kits or can I find stock parts cheaper.
With pistons, can I use a stock 360 rod and a custom piston or will the piston be to short. Will a 390 rod work better? Which brand of piston do y'all suggest.
Which head do I look for, or will a c8 or d2 work ok? I have all the time in the world to look for parts, and I'm pretty good at it too.
What do you mean by "if you want to save money on seats, go with CJ valves". Wont cj valves need seats as well. I know absolutely nothing about heads. But want to learn.
I'm not gonna lie, I'm doing this build for 2 reasons, the truck needs more torque, and I want to learn a little about building a performance engine.
I'm gonna check out those builds now.
Thanks again for all the help
Will
I'd buy a SCAT cast crank if I were buying new, regardless of stroke. Although some people have had good luck with Eagles, many haven't. In my opinion what you are doing doesn't require a forged crank.
If you go 3.98 stroke, you can use 6.49 (390, 428, 427) connecting rods, if you go 4.25, the most common size is 6.70 and it uses a Chevy rod dimension. With a 4.25 stroke, the cheapest way is probably SCAT I beams, Probe pistons and the SCAT cast crank, but it will be very tough to keep compression low with the C8/D2 heads and a stroker. The one I just did was a bear to keep under 10:1 with D2 heads and off the shelf parts and that's too much compression for your intended use.
My opinion is still what it was on the FE forum, if you are staying on a budget, get a good 1.77 compression height cast piston and build a zero to -.010 deck 9:1 390, a high 250's advertised duration cam and Performer intake.
I do think head work will help you significantly though, not drag racing, high dollar head work, but head work that doesn't add much port volume, just cleans up obstructions in the guide area and blends the bowl cleanly to the valve seat combined with a good valve job
Going to 410 would be easy too, but it adds the cost of a crank and a balance, but there are plenty of cast 1.66 or 1.67 compression height 410/truck 390 pistons out there, ebay is loaded with them, so the price would be more than a 390 but less than a 445. Again though, you'll need to watch compression as stroke adds it pretty quickly and you'll need to keep it around 9:1 for the type of cam you'll want.
As others have said though, if you want the MOST power, the 445 will get you there.
As far as my comment on saving seats on the heads, you can cheat if you are building a budget motor and add 2.09/1.67 valves and just cut new seats and then blend the bowls. Its decent for a budget motor, but if you were going 445 I'd probably put a set of seats in too.
The D2/C8 head is fine with some work, I run D2s on my 445 that flow 277 cfm, that's much more than an out of the box Edelbrock, but they are only opened up to medium riser size intake runners with CJ valves The heads don't really need to be opened up even that much though, the real gains are in the bowl area and the valve job on those heads, especially on a build like yours, from the factory they are the worst flowing heads, improving those areas make power with no downside However, like the ones on my 445. they can do well with relatively little work.
I would not use a 360 rod only because a custom piston would cost more than finding a good set of 6.49 rods and using an off the shelf piston.
The 360 rod is not long enough to use a 390 truck/410 piston with a 390 crank and too long to use a 390 car piston with a 390 crank, so no real benefit.
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Thank you very much. I will start hunting parts.
One other question I have is just a general engine build question. If you're building an engine and there is a target rpm should you plan peak just a tad beyond that? For example I'm gonna build an engine that makes peak power at cruising rpm, 3k. Would it be smart to actually move the max to about 3500 so there is something left after I hit cruising speed? I can see why yes and why no.
Also, short duration Higher lift for torque because it keeps the pressures up, correct?
Thanks again
Will
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Wow I guess you guys got that one covered LOL.....Jon
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Thank you very much. I will start hunting parts.
One other question I have is just a general engine build question. If you're building an engine and there is a target rpm should you plan peak just a tad beyond that? For example I'm gonna build an engine that makes peak power at cruising rpm, 3k. Would it be smart to actually move the max to about 3500 so there is something left after I hit cruising speed? I can see why yes and why no.
Also, short duration Higher lift for torque because it keeps the pressures up, correct?
Thanks again
Will
I don't think you will be able to cam it down enough to peak horsepower that low, you would have to drop compression so much to run that short of a cam that a gas motor just wouldn't have any real torque or power. Yes it would be low in the curve like you want, but the overall peak would be less too, defeating the purpose. I would build it for a 4600-4800 (a total WAG) hp peak, which should put the torque peak right about where you want it.
I like what you are trying to do, but remember it will never be a diesel, even with a naturally aspirated diesel, the torque from a diesel comes from double the compression and different fuel. Most modern diesels though have a turbo on top of that to make real power in the 2500 rpm range.
As far as the cam, short duration and less overlap will make it more efficient at lower RPM at part throttle. In terms of lift, yes more is good, but as your duration gets shorter, its hard to snap the valve open and closed in the short time you have, so generally, lift gets shorter with duration too.
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Thank you for the responses. I'll start looking for parts.
Thanks again
Will
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Thank you very much. I will start hunting parts.
One other question I have is just a general engine build question. If you're building an engine and there is a target rpm should you plan peak just a tad beyond that? For example I'm gonna build an engine that makes peak power at cruising rpm, 3k. Would it be smart to actually move the max to about 3500 so there is something left after I hit cruising speed? I can see why yes and why no.
Also, short duration Higher lift for torque because it keeps the pressures up, correct?
Thanks again
Will
With a truck engine, the work begins when you are pulling a grade, WOT for the duration. Usually (depending on how many gears you have) the engine will settle in and pull the grade at the designed maximum torque. A little rpm overlap is good so that you have time to shift gears. (horsepower rating at a little higher rpm than the torque) But a broad powerband is what you want, and this will be determined by the cam.
Cruise rpm is not so important, you want to be able to cruise with a relatively strong vacuum signal.
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Ive had all kinds of diesels. My worn out 390 will walk the don my old fresh 7.3 idi. That thing would pull a house but good god it was slow. Had a obs and a super duty 7.3 and a 6.0
I know my gas engine will never get close to what my turbo diesels were, but it's much cheaper and easier to maintain.
I've jus gotta decide whether I wanna stay with my original 410 plan or step up to the 445.
Will
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Fwiw, this is pretty impressive for a stockish rebuild. That's why I'm thinking I might be happy with a 410
http://fefordtech.com/index.php?topic=40.0
Will
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You should try one of those 390's with a bigger cam ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S8mriRKzUc
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I can only say that if you're happy with the 410, then you'd be more happy with the 445. Of course the wallet does have to be taken into consideration. ;)
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I don't see how the price difference between a 410 and a 445 is THAT much different. Why go through all the trouble to get 20ci when you can get 55ci for what, an additional $400?
Especially with your intended usage, the larger engine will not labor nearly as much as the smaller engine making the same power.
I think I'd just be driving the heck out of the 390 and saving money for the larger engine, do it once. With a 410 I'd always be wondering "what if i went bigger?"
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I don't see how the price difference between a 410 and a 445 is THAT much different. Why go through all the trouble to get 20ci when you can get 55ci for what, an additional $400?
Especially with your intended usage, the larger engine will not labor nearly as much as the smaller engine making the same power.
I think I'd just be driving the heck out of the 390 and saving money for the larger engine, do it once. With a 410 I'd always be wondering "what if i went bigger?"
Then again to go from 445 to 458 is a relatively small increase in CI but also doesn't cost all that much more either. I'm thinking it only cost me maybe $500 extra. But the 458 setup has a forged crank and upgraded rods over the Scat setup too. Blair can help with that stuff. Also if I ever decide it's still not enough I'll be able to re-block it and use my crank and rods for 1000 HP or more. Good stuff for speed junkies for sure =)
Hey Howie, what cam have you got in that beast? Sounds friggen awesome man!
Whoops, reading back through the thread I see this is way overboard from what Z was looking for. But I will say that from my experience it does apply. I started out just wanting a nice reliable stock rebuild on my 352 and a few upgrades "here and there" has led me here so far. Good luck keeping your foot out of it Z, I seem to have a hard time with that part ;)
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Yea builds do that.
The samurai was supposed to be a small lift and 32s. It left the garage on 35s. Then a year later 38s. Then a simple suspension redo turned into a full custom build derived from my knowledge and imagination. Then a bigger 4 banger that got sold before I ever fired it up cuz I decided I needed a small block.
Will
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Funny how they do that. I didn't think about the 4.375 stroke just because it isn't as cheap and drop in.
Will, we're traveling the same path bro, I remember when you were working on that 7.3 idi over at the other place :P
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Drew,
That's funny. I knew I had seen your name before. I loved that idi. It hated to fire up but by god it was a mule. I had literally replaced everything. Slow and loud that's how it rolled. I offed it for 3k. Best and worst move ever.
What are you building these days.
Will
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Yeah, my handle on most forums is DeepRoots.
Had an 89 f250 xtended cab 7.3idi Ats turbo, zf5, moose pump, etc etc. It was fast for an 8000lb truck (0-60 in 11 seconds, heh)
Mine was in perfect condition as far as running goes.
When I went out of business and went offshore to work, it didn't make sense to have an old, boring expensive to keep diesel in the yard 8 months a year. I didn't tow anything anymore and the wife couldn't drive it whatsoever.
I bought a "core" 76 F100 and took 2 years fixing it up. 390, c6, and rebuilt about everything in it. Truck weights 3800lbs, so even if I put an inline 6 in it, it would have *felt* fast after the diesel. Sold my diesel after I got the 76 running well enough and used the oney toward my dream car.
I like that little car with a little engine I've been working on for a little while now. It's not "Fe Power Forums" friendly tho (I'm too poor to afford a 427 block)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_0732-1.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/user/DeepRootsNursery/media/IMG_0732-1.jpg.html)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_0958.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/user/DeepRootsNursery/media/IMG_0958.jpg.html)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_0956.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/user/DeepRootsNursery/media/IMG_0956.jpg.html)
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Hey man, a 429/460 ain't nuthin ta sneeze at! ;)
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Hey man, a 429/460 ain't nuthin ta sneeze at! ;)
No sir! Not a damn thing wrong with that in my opinion. Sweet Galaxie either way :)
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Drew,
That's the same thing I started thinking with my idi. The idi was new from the ground up. It wasn't atlanta city traffic friendly. Plus being part of a land cruiser shop, I bought a 94 land cruiser. It towed faster than my idi, but didn't like heavy loads. I built internationals in high school but always wanted a 1 ton bump. So I bought one.
You're sent is cool. The galaxie is even cooler.
Will
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Hey Howie, what cam have you got in that beast? Sounds friggen awesome man!
It's an old Crane Hyd 296H. That's what's stamped on the end. I have not seen the card for many years.
Seems to work pretty good in the 390.
RIP Harvey.
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Will,
I bought that truck as a "core" in Maryville Tn. (I'm in Douglas Ga just north of Valdosta)
I remember driving my 89 f250 towing the F100 through Atlanta at noon in traffic.
Oddly enough everyone gave me a wide berth :-)
a POS truck hauling a POS truck must have been too much for the city folks.... I stuck the zf in 2nd and idled through town
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When I first moved to Atlanta all I drove was the buggy. A built samurai on 38s with no top doors it windshield. I got all the room I wanted.
Will
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Zukinut Where in atl. do you live ?I am on the southern end in Griffin .If you are ever on my side of town look me up .I might be able to help you with your 410 build .Doug 678 603 8400. :D
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Doug,
I believe we have actually already left each other voicemails. I'll try to give you a call back this afternoon.
Will
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yeah, go check out Doug and his awesome cars.....
I had two kids, Doug has three cyclones. Jury is still out on which is the better investment :P
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I spoke with Doug on the phone. He's a cool cat. Once this baby shows up, I'll be able to go check out his cars and chat with him in person.
Thanks again
Will
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Well Drew I dont know about investment but sometimes I could use a little help with the cyclones !And ole Zuk there is the first rock crawler I have ever spoke with .Sounds like he knows rock crawling Too.I enjoyed talking with you Zuk Keep your fe build simple and you will be happy.And Drew seems to me you are enjoying your galaxie Keep with it young man .I have been focusing on my 69 cyclone lately .After I got my engine going I have been working on some other areas.I rebuilt my 9" and I have been breaking it in .I have about 200-250 miles on it now .Not a peep out of it .I went with a motive gear.First time using them so far so good .Still thinking of selling my mercury I just havent made up my mind .Thanks for the kind words guys.Good luck to you both .And hows the baby Zuk ?Doug 8)
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wish I lived closer.... you'd never get me outta the shop :-)
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The baby is doin well. 2 weeks old tommorow. We had a boy. A 9# boy to be exact. Momma is doing well too.
Moving to tn Friday. Well the family is, I'm already here.
The truck hauled another load from Atl to Bristol last weekend. Even in it's tired oil burning state that 390 is impressive. Can't wait to get the cash flow together to build it or a 445.
Next time I visit I'm gonna head down to griffin to "swap howdies"
Will
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Drew have you heard wheather or not Sol is having the ODRR ? After last year I am not sure I want to go or not .Maybe the racing will be better .Will you are welcome to come visit any time And I have a rebuilt 390 short block i would part with .It would be nice if we all lived closer not many around my town work on fords much less FEs .Happy fourth to you all !!Doug Congratulations on the baby boy !!
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zukinut,
I haven't answered this post before but after building a 410ci engine for my 57 Fairlane I will tell you I am tickled to death with the way it turned out. I can get at least 18mpg on a trip and I can assuredly enter the 13 sec bracket through the quarter mile. But, the engine was engineered to accomplish what I wanted. I listened to my most knowledgeable associates on this forum to a degree. I actually took most of the advise when building my engine. But, I didn't go to extreme's that would make the intended use of the car unattainable. That's what you need to think about. Think of the budget you have and then think of the engines intended use. It makes no sense to try and put 15,000 miles a year on an engine that has 1000 HP, can't sit in traffic over 15 sec without overheating and gets 4 mpg gas consumption while idling at 1500 rpm just to keep it from stalling. Bigger is not always better. Like I said, my engine is exactly what I was trying to accomplish and it still costs be $8500 for parts and machine work with me having the block to begin with. I feel like that is great for what I got. I'd have been really pissed if I'd have spent $3000 on an engine build and then been dissatisfied with how it turned out. Good luck and congratulations on the new addition to the family. Jim
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If it were me if your going to stroke it STROKE IT the 4.25/4.375 stroke crank is the same price as the 3.98 crank.
http://racingpartsmaximum.com/forgedsteelsae4340-2.html
RODS http://racingpartsmaximum.com/sae4340steelhbeam-2.html
The cam I would suggest whatever you go with on a 390 build add 10* duration, and tighter LSA instead of a 112/114 go for a 110/108 The idle will be a bit more choppy but it also bleeds down the CR. 92 octane will then live in this environment. As the cranking pressure won't be crazy @1-3k
Hope this helps