FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Joe-JDC on November 02, 2022, 08:42:06 PM
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Retirement has allowed me to get back on one of my favorite engine builds, and I finally have the proof that the design can work with good parts and lots of preparation. I was able to spend two days on the dyno at Ted Eaton's shop in Lorena, TX and tested 4 intakes and 6 different carburetor combinations. The engine is 3.862" bore x 4.000" stroke for 374.86 cubic inches, and I tested my ported heads, ported intakes: dual plane, single plane, single plane-dominator, tunnel ram. The single plane intakes are new, and I have one of the first with the Dominator carb pad. It is a real improvement for those wishing high rpm performance with a Y. Anyway, it was fun, lots of work, and very tiring but satisfying. Here are a couple of pictures of the results. Joe-JDC
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This forum really needs a "Like" button....
So I'll just give a big "Thumbs Up" :)
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Outstanding job Joe! A couple of questions of you don't mind.
1. Did you start with a 312 block?
2. I understand you ported the heads, did you start with the Mummert aluminum versions?
3. I've seen on a Y forum that Ford of Argentina developed a head in later years that didn't use the stacked intake arrangement. Have you had any experience with those heads?
Last, what version of Y are you installing in your T-Bird? ;D
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This started life as a C2 (1962) 292 block. The 312 has larger main journals which is not as good for serious horsepower. I used a Moldex custom forged crankshaft with Honda rod journals, Crower 6.300 rods, JE forged pistons, Jones custom camshaft with 268/274* .409/.395" lobe lift, Trend tool steel lifters, Smith Brothers push rods, Mummert heads, Mummert intakes that I ported. FPA headers for TBird, and I have a .500" iron block girdle for holding that 4" stroke together at 7500 rpm. I did a half fill of the block, added an electric water pump motor, and complete MSD ignition. So, really it is not a true Y Block, but newer Y block parts. LOL
I have not seen the Argentina heads in person.
My '55 Tbird has a 345 Y all iron making 402 hp. It is low compression and small cam for street with AC.
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That engine is impressive.
one of my favorite engine of all time.
I just wish they would have keep them longer and developed them to their full potential.
Greg
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Good job, Joe. Little engine runs hard.
Glad you're getting to do some playing now.
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Joe, how many cfm, did you get out of the Mummert heads?
Unbelievable, what the old Y-block will do and keep together!
I have to admit, that I didn't like them in the '60's, when I was a mechanic. I had to put a lot of over head oilers on them, had a 312 with a cracked block (main to cam) and they were heavy. Do you know how much your weighs or how much the aluminum timing cover, saves in weight?
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Impressive numbers Joe. Keep up the good work.
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I have ported several sets of the Mummert aluminum heads to flow 290/200, let's just say these are better than that, and the DP intake flows 340 cfm, the SP flows 348, the SP-D flows 355, and the TR flows 355 cfm. The engine weight has not been established with aluminum heads, valley cover, timing cover, intake manifold, valve covers, headers. It is not much heavier than a SBF, if any, this way. I can slide it into the bed of my truck by myself on furniture slides. The LS block is strangely similar to the Y in design. Joe-JDC
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It's great to see a master craftsman in his element.
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Wow !! .. thanks for info Joe
Digs this " My '55 Tbird has a 345 Y all iron making 402 hp. It is low compression and small cam for street with AC. "
Ricky.
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Dual 850s on top of the TR? Dang. Good power + torque. What jetting on those beasts? I need to tinker with a TR more on my 351C
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https://www.fordmuscle.com/features/car-features/video-joe-cebes-600-horsepower-all-motor-y-block-ford-thunderbird/
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Dual 850s on top of the TR? Dang. Good power + torque. What jetting on those beasts? I need to tinker with a TR more on my 351C
The carbs are Pro Systems 860 cfm carbs jetted this time with #81s square in both carbs. The torque with my Isky camshaft was 567, and with the Jones camshaft the highest was 546. However the Isky was installed at 101*, and the Jones camshaft at 105*. I am sure there is another 10 horsepower available if we had tried different spacers or multiple spacers on the various combinations. Ted is recovering from surgery on his arm and rotator cuff, so I didn't want to inconvenience him with resetting the throttle on the dyno for adding spacers with each combination. Joe-JDC
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Thank you Joe. I think I continually underestimate the amount of carb that a tunnel ram will work with on even a moderate size engine. I know the cam makes a lot of difference and especially on a 351C the install angle makes a difference, sometimes a big one. I have also tended to undersize cams in my engines, why I started letting Brent spec in things.
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Joe, what was the vacuum reading at WOT?
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Vacuum reading with dual plane was 1.4-1.5", with single plane 4150 was 1.1", and with single plane-dominator and tunnel ram .8-.9". Changing break-in oil to Amsoil 5W-20 did not make a difference in horsepower. I am still amazed at how the Y Block responds to traditional hot rodding principles and makes easy horsepower. All the Y block needed was a head with the combustion chambers over the cylinder, and a good distributor to be competitive with anything of the time period. Joe-JDC
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...............competitive with anything of the time period.
Our old-guy round-track (short-track) customers whom we used to talk to decades ago described that in their experience back in the day as participants, that the 292 & 312's did just fine against the 265's & 283's, up until the 327's started showing up then it became a little tougher. :)
Scott.
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It sounds like this Y-block is getting close to an maximum, all-out build?
What do you think would be a max-effort? More RPM with an even bigger cam? 700 horsepower? Supercharging?
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The only thing that I can think of to make more horsepower with this engine is to up the compression another point or so, add a vacuum pump, and try to get more lift with a steel rocker arm system. The 1.7 aluminum roller rocker arms deflect ~.020" at maximum lift with the PAC dual springs. The lobes are .409/.395" which would give me .695"/.672" lift. I measured it at .679"/.666". I don't know why the exhaust did not deflect as much unless it is valve weight difference. Getting more lift can only be accomplished with rocker arms, not the camshaft base circle. I use a +.100" longer lifter to keep the lifter from cocking in the bore at zero lift with the 1.100" base circle on this camshaft. These heads are maxed out, there is not enough room for larger valves unless a person would go "Jon Kaase" on them, and I don't have his pocketbook to do that. I am considering building another similar engine but with low compression and Pro Charger with intercooler to see what is possible with the Y. Joe-JDC
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Vacuum reading with dual plane was 1.4-1.5", with single plane 4150 was 1.1", and with single plane-dominator and tunnel ram .8-.9".
The only thing that I can think of to make more horsepower with this engine is.............
Well no doubt a forced-induction option could push the power up; but if I were determined to strive for that which can be achieved naturally-aspirated, and particularly when referencing the vacuum reading statement, then I would be looking at eliminating the carburetor(s) and switching to a fuel injection effort. :-\
Notice that I didn't say 'electronic' fuel injection, as I don't think that the electrics would be required for your effort, or for the drag racing environment; and this also isn't a statement that mechanical fuel injection isn't possible for anything else either. :)
The problem (well yes, everything costs to much money ::)) is that there isn't a 'good' (for making power ;)) fuel injection manifold out there available; the old Hilborn and Argon examples just don't have the internal cross-sectional area necessary, so a manifold would need to be constructed. And this would prove difficult, this particularly due to the 'Y'-Blocks' "stacked" inlet port presentation layout. :P
But, since I have the Bridgeport, lathe, welding equipment, etc, and have dove into similar frustrating efforts before, I would probably begin by picking-up from somewhere a used larger throttle bore (e.g. Kinsler) I.R. manifold casting, something with spread ports might prove more flexible in the end, but perhaps just the more common S.B.C. stuff might prove cheaper to acquire, and start starring at it, for possibilities, cutting-up, welding, perhaps sectioning and grafting to one of the carb manifolds and shaping, attempting to establish if it could be made into something useful, or just as a pattern, if only to aid in the thought process for a next better effort. It would most likely prove to be somewhat unconventional, but.......... :-\
And if at first you don't succeed.................. ; and I know to well of this scenario! But then, who doesn't like a good challenge! ::)
Scott.
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Everything I've ever read or seen says that fuel injection will not make more power. Lots of back to back testing out there to back that up as well. Theory is that the fuel cools the air, and cooling equals denser charge. Driveability and low speed improves dramatically, but not maximum power, or even the power over and under maximum. If talking about a throttle body style injection, I still don't see it making more power at peak.
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He is talking about mechanical stack injection with ram tubes. Royce B has a working Y Block with one of those systems and it performs quite well. I am not going to change over just yet to EFI. I want to change the camshaft and try some different spacers and valve lash settings before I tear it apart. The dyno has Bosch AFR readings, and if those are maximized for ~`12.9-.13.1 AFR, then I don't see FI or EFI making any more power over the carbs. Joe-JDC
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Opinions vary on this, but many intakes have a shallow grid pattern on the plenum floor and I see yours have dimples installed. What do you think that is doing performancewise? Most would say it's to prevent or collect and re-atomize fuel that comes out of suspension.
Best,
Kellly
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In back to back testing on a 400 hp engine, with identical intakes except for the dimples, the dimpled intake increased the torque average by 3lb/ft, and average horsepower by 3hp. Was repeated backward with intake change and lost the 3lb/ft, 3hp. Yes, the dyno can be that specific if the operator does everything the same way and within a few minutes of each test. The Y Block intakes are easy and quick to change if you use white lithium grease on the intake gaskets. I can change one in about 5 minutes and be back and up running, even with a partial water drop on the dyno tower. Joe-JDC
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In back to back testing on a 400 hp engine, with identical intakes except for the dimples, the dimpled intake increased the torque average by 3lb/ft, and average horsepower by 3hp. Was repeated backward with intake change and lost the 3lb/ft, 3hp. Yes, the dyno can be that specific if the operator does everything the same way and within a few minutes of each test. The Y Block intakes are easy and quick to change if you use white lithium grease on the intake gaskets. I can change one in about 5 minutes and be back and up running, even with a partial water drop on the dyno tower. Joe-JDC
<0.75% repeatability and accuracy is quite attention getting for dyno and engine testing.
When you say average, was it uniform increase across the range or better at some engine speeds?
Maybe yours is not to reason why but I'm a curious soul and cant help myself. To what do you attribute the performance gain? Obviously the dimples but what's the mechanism/forces at play?
Best,
Kelly
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7-8 hp difference at certain rpm, but the average increased overall in both torque and horsepower. I don't have the dyno sheets here now to show you, but I am a firm believer that the dimples help with keeping the fuel in suspension and not clinging to the port walls or floor. When you have a flat bottom to the plenum, the fuel splatters and can come back up out of the secondaries. Joe-JDC
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Here is my Hilborn injected Y .. Joe Craine ported iron heads,11:1, 333 inches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hpz3qPlpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hpz3qPlpI)
Dyno pull.. 462 peak I would have to go back and look to see how this compared to a single 4 intake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGq0udWwXBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGq0udWwXBA)
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Here is my Hilborn injected Y ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hpz3qPlpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hpz3qPlpI)
That's quite a nice setup you have! And not to hy-jack this thread (perhaps start a new one :-\) please do describe your system! :)
Scott.
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Not to take away from Joe's thread but, that's a beautiful looking engine!
I can't remember seeing such a late model FI for a Y- block. Are you using a dual by pass on it or the old single?
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Briefly, the injector is a cut up and re-oriented SBC unit.. To make it work required a linkage with a lot of monkey motion and fabbed adapters to mate the injector to the head.. It worked quite well, and i ran it on my race car for a while.