FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: gregaba on June 13, 2022, 12:19:02 PM
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I was able to get back to work on putting together my 428 today and decided to degree the cam and button up the bottem end.
I ran into a problem I am not sure how to fix.
Barrys book says I need .005 of end play. I have .277.
I have the Ford D cam and am using jays timing set.
Barry's book says there is a way to adjust the endplay but doesn't explain how to do it.
Would I use hardened washers behind the thrush plate or?
Thanks
Greg
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.027" or .277"?
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.277
Greg
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No, something is bad wrong somewhere.
Make sure the cam gear is fully seated on the cam. Make sure cam bolt isn't too long, etc.
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Will do.
I have never had this problem and was a little surprised to find it. I will go out and recheck.
Thanks
Greg
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you did leave out the factory spacer between the cam and gear , all aftermarket units come as it being part of the gear , that spacer is around .277 thick
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Thanks for all the suggestions. A big help.
I went and checked the new ARP cam bolt and it was ro long. I had another new one and it worked. .005 end play now.
Both the ARP cam bolt's were for a FE engine but one was longer then the other by quite a bit.
Guess I will have to mike all my after market bolt's from now on.
Thanks again.
Greg
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I always measure and check thread depths on every fastener. You just never can tell with aftermarket parts.
If you haven't yet, check the length of the thrust plate bolts. The lower right one is always too long and will block off the oil feed to the distributor shaft.
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Thanks for the tip. I had not thought of that.
A good one to know.
It has been a few year's since I retired and it is amazing how much I have forgotten.
Being old kind of suck's.
Greg
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Went ahead and found another problem.
When I would torque the cam bolt to 50 lb's the engine would lock up. and I would have zero end play. I e mailed brent and he suggested the thrush plate might be to thick.
I pulled it apart this morning and checked the thickness with some of my extra's I had in the shop and they were the same thickness. I decided to coat the back of the cam gear,bolts and thrush plate with blue dye. found the plate screw's were hitting the back of the cam gear when torqued. See picture.
I hit the heads of the plate bolt's with my belt sander and removed .006 from the heads.
This cleared the problem up to 45 lb's torque.
At 50 it would get really hard and again no end play.
I was about to quit when I had an ideal. I don't get many of them but once in a while they work.
I had been useing my 1/2 inch Snap On torque wrench [which I had just hed recalibrated last year] and decided to try my 3/8 wrench which I had calibrated at the same time.
Torqued to 50 lb's and now I have .004 end play and no lock up.
Now to go out and get that last .001 end play and I will be good at that end.
I will go and retorque my rods and mains while I am at it.
Greg
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If that's Jay's timing set, he includes thrust plate bolts to use with it that clear the timing set.
The difference between 45 and 50 lb-ft of torque is really negligible, Greg....all you're doing is essentially stretching that cam bolt, you're not changing any other specs.
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You are right.
I remember them coming with the set. I will go though my part's room and see if I can dig them up.
I started buying part's for this build 20 year's ago and sometime's find it hard to keep track of the part's.
I didn't think 5 lb's of torque would make any difference on the lock up and think it had to do with my wrench being way off.
And thanks for taking the time to help.
Greg
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Your wrench may be fine, but a torque wrench typically does not have a linear calibration. At the bottom and top of the scales they are less accurate. So if you use a 250lb wrench at 30-40-50lbs it will be off more than it will be at 200lbs. The digital wrenches are a bit more linear, but they still suffer from the same problem, just less severe.
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Thanks
I didn't know that.
I think my problems steem from useing the stock thrush plate screws and not the one's that came with Jay's kit.
I am still going to recheck my torque settings just to be sure.
I found my instruction's and found I am using to much torque so will use another new cam bolt I have since I may have to much streach in the one I am using now.
Greg
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I always measure and check thread depths on every fastener. You just never can tell with aftermarket parts.
If you haven't yet, check the length of the thrust plate bolts. The lower right one is always too long and will block off the oil feed to the distributor shaft.
The information above is one of the reasons, my fellow fepower observers, that this is such a good place to visit regularly. My first FE engine came in a '64 Custom, a 427 in my first new car. In the years since I have very often had my fingers on the insides of an FE performance engine. I didn't learn that bit that Brent mentioned about the retainer bolts on an FE until quite recently. If we keep talking about it, probably someone will know why the factory bolts require a Phillips driver to tighten them. Does anybody know---or want to hazard a guess. ???
KS
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[/quote]
If we keep talking about it, probably someone will know why the factory bolts require a Phillips driver to tighten them. Does anybody know---or want to hazard a guess. ???
KS
[/quote]
No idea but I reuse them, why not?
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How true.
I was a line mechanic in the early 70's of the local Ford dealership and we were all ways going to classes on the latest repair procrdure's on Ford product's.
We were never told about the plate bolt's blocking the lower feed. I wonder what else we were not told about.
Brents mention of this is the first time I had heard of it myself.
I will admit this is the first FE I have buildt since the middle eighty's as I was working on 351's-429-460's, sbc's,bbc etc as those we the hot engine's of the day. There just weren't many affordable preformance FE part's around then.
I think the reason for the phillip's head screw's is the head engineer for bolt's, stud's and fastener's had a hangover that day and just didn't want to in the effort to design a hex head screw.
Greg
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I hate those Phillips bolts. Almost impossible for me to get the torque spec on them that I feel is appropriate with a roller cam setup. I torque those 7/16-14 thrust plate bolts at 55 lb-ft. Hard to do that with a big fat Phillips bit.
A lot of this FE stuff is left over from 1958 ways of thinking.
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I hate those Phillips bolts. Almost impossible for me to get the torque spec on them that I feel is appropriate with a roller cam setup. I torque those 7/16-14 thrust plate bolts at 55 lb-ft. Hard to do that with a big fat Phillips bit.
A lot of this FE stuff is left over from 1958 ways of thinking.
Not at all difficult to torque. I pull the adapter and I think its #2 bit out of my impact screwdriver set, pop it on the torque wrench and done. Bit fits perfect and the feel is the same as a regular bolt when torquing. Figured this one out few weeks ago set wrench for 50ft-lb. Honestly after doing it I decided that's how I would it here on out, it worked that well.
This is the set I keep around for stubborn screws/bolts but first time I ever used that honking Phillips bit. Really fit perfect.
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-29200-Hand-Impact-Tool/dp/B0002NYDRG/ref=asc_df_B0002NYDRG/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309807921328&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10434914323829841396&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017807&hvtargid=pla-762199117352&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-29200-Hand-Impact-Tool/dp/B0002NYDRG/ref=asc_df_B0002NYDRG/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309807921328&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10434914323829841396&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017807&hvtargid=pla-762199117352&psc=1)
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My guess: bean counters. At the time, I'll venture an off-the-shelf Phillips screw met the clearance needs and avoided the need for a thin headed cap screw, likely a special that cost two cents more!
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I always measure and check thread depths on every fastener. You just never can tell with aftermarket parts.
Have learned this lesson well. The most excellent advice.
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FYI and just for the record....
Those are NOT Phillips head screws for the cam retainer, they are "Pozi-Drive" screws.
A "normal" Phillips bit will foul the head,
you need to use the proper Pozi-Drive bit, it will grip the head properly and you should be able to torque them too!
Google search Pozi-Drive vs Phillips, they ARE different!
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See---
You ask the question, you get an answer. :)
KS
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Questions answered that nobody asked.... ;)
To be further pedantic about this.. (sorry about that...)
Here's some pics... should be self explanatory...
You can see the Phillips #3 bit fits quite poorly in the Pozi-Driv screw.
Should be obvious by now, but I'll say it anyways...
The Pozi-Driv screw is easily identified by those 4 little "hash marks" between the slots where the bit goes in.
Phillips screws were originally designed to intentionally "cam out" of the screw head.
The purpose was (maybe still is) production line speed.
The tools back in the day of the assembly line did not have the finesse and control capable today.
So imagine an assembly line worker with many Phillips screws to install...
... but we don't want the screws over torqued or even broken off...
So he grabs his power tool and the screws and quickly installs them...
and as the screw tightens up the bit "automatically cams out" of the screw head...
and he knows it's installed with as much torque as it needs..... on to the next....
BTW these are best for trim pieces and such....
Phillips are a very poor choice for a fastener that needs significant amount of torque.
Thus Ford used the Pozi-Driv screws for the cam retainer.
These don't cam out and can be torqued quite a reasonable amount.
BTW I've had that Snap-On Pozi-Driv bit since the early 80's when I built my first FE.... :)
Ford also used Pozi-Driv screws on 60's (and probably 70's) cars door latch striker plates.