FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: ChiefDanGeorge on December 22, 2021, 07:14:15 AM
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My end goal is to get discs up front, but wanted to start off replacing the single bowl MC with a dual bowl setup.
I've never done this before so I'm trying to figure out what all I will need to do.
I am thinking of going ahead and getting a setup with the proportioning valve so that will be there when I start with the discs. Is there an issue doing that? Is the master cylinder going to be the same for drum/drum, or will that be different for a disc/drum setup? I have seen mention of residual valves, is that something I've got to have as well?
For the lines, how are the current lines tied back in since the distribution block is not going to be used?
Thanks for any and all pointers!
Dan
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I say don't.
Keep in mind that the choice of disc brake determines the bore size of the new dual master, not the other way around. Put another way, if you merely wanted a dual master (and retained the OEM drums) then doing the change over now would be fine. BTW, more than a few posters here have added front discs somewhat inexpensively by using Ford discs and masters to 1963 rides.
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My thought process was it will get the brake lines tackled. I have to re-route lines no matter which way I go, in other words moving the lines off the distribution block(which is in a not easy to get to spot).
If I did put the dual bowl on with drums, then go to discs, is the MC the only thing(other than the brake parts) that would change in the fluid end of things?
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Personally, I would wait until you are ready to do the disc brake conversion, so you don`t need to change the master cylinder, and possibly the lines from it, twice. In addition to bore size, also dependent on manual vs power brakes, the reservoir sizes are different, as are the threaded holes for the fitting. Also, a drum brake master cylinder will likely has residual pressure valves.
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I've done this on several cars and agree that you should do the swap to the front discs and dual master cylinder at the same time. I like Wilwood stuff, and if you call them and give them your application, they will point you in the right direction in terms of master cylinder size for the brakes you select. I think the master cylinder for drums and discs will be different, and you will need a proportioning valve between the master cylinder rear reservoir and the rear brakes with a disc setup.
Pretty sure I was using either a 7/8" or 15/16" bore on the master cylinder when I did the swap on my 64 Galaxie, and just used the Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve to the rears. The size of the master cylinder bore is important; a smaller diameter will require more pedal travel for a specific brake pressure, but also will be easier to push the pedal. I did one once with a larger bore master cylinder, and the pedal was nice and firm and high, but took a LOT of pedal pressure to lock the brakes. Wilwood can get you in the right ballpark there.
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Thanks for the advice, it looks like I'll plan to do discs and MC swap at the same time. The MC and lines part looks the hardest to me. I've watched some wilwood installs and the hardware at the wheels looks more straight forward, mostly because you can get to everything. I'm not sure how I'm going to get at the distribution block yet.
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I've done this on several cars and agree that you should do the swap to the front discs and dual master cylinder at the same time. I like Wilwood stuff, and if you call them and give them your application, they will point you in the right direction in terms of master cylinder size for the brakes you select. I think the master cylinder for drums and discs will be different, and you will need a proportioning valve between the master cylinder rear reservoir and the rear brakes with a disc setup.
Pretty sure I was using either a 7/8" or 15/16" bore on the master cylinder when I did the swap on my 64 Galaxie, and just used the Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve to the rears. The size of the master cylinder bore is important; a smaller diameter will require more pedal travel for a specific brake pressure, but also will be easier to push the pedal. I did one once with a larger bore master cylinder, and the pedal was nice and firm and high, but took a LOT of pedal pressure to lock the brakes. Wilwood can get you in the right ballpark there.
Jay, I have a similar setup on my 59, Wilwood front disc setup, with a 15/16" bore manual brake master cylinder from a 70s Maverick, and an adjustable proportioning valve between the rear chamber of the master cylinder, and the rear brakes. (I have mine located inside the frame rail, below the drivers seat). With drums on the rear, I have found leaving the vale wide open works best, with no lockup difference between the front and rear, but each application should be "dialed in" for best results.
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Thankfully the distribution block is easily accessible from underneath. Did you guys replace all the hard lines front to back?
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A strong consideration is for you to use cunifer for your hard lines. This is a DOT approved nickel, iron, copper alloy hard line. It is used broadly in Euro brake systems. It is corrosion proof, very easy to bend, and flair. Ford uses 3/16 line, but measure yours to be sure. I suggest you also get a nice, complete flair nut kit for that 3/16 line. There are various nut sizes used throughout the brake system and you will need the nut kit. Also, get some stainless brake line shield to protect the hard lines. As to the master cylinder, I would suggest a Dorman 39567 for power brake, or 39568 for manual brakes. Both are 15/16 bore cylinders made of aluminum with a plastic reservoir. These master cylinders are a more modern version of the iron Maverick master cylinder referenced above, but retrofit goes all the way back to when dual reservoir master cylinders came out in '67. The Dorman master fits just like the older masters with the exception of where the lines attach. The two bolt holes are in the same location and the piston depth is also the same as the iron cylinders. When I installed my line lock in my '67 Fairlane, I used the 39567 master, and cunifer lines. It was a very easy installation and everything fit and works perfectly. The cunifer line will make the biggest difference in the work involved. You can buy it on Amazon along with the nut kit and the master. It's all pretty cheap.
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Not sure if the material is the same, with just a different name, but I made all my 59s brake lines, (as well as fuel lines), from a nickel/copper alloy called Ni-Cop. The tubing is available in different diameters and lengths, I found a 25 foot roll each of 3/16" and 3/8" was adequate for the fuel and brake lines, and as Gerry mentioned, much easier to make nice bends and double flares with. Having never been really satisfied with the double flares while using my regular Snap On flaring tool, I bought an inline double flaring tool, which made much cleaner double flares. It is faster, and easier to use, plus is more compact, so much nicer to use in tight confines under the car. The inline flaring tool I have is only one size (3/16"), so I used my regular multi size flare tool for the fuel lines, since it was typically the smaller brake lines that I had trouble with anyhow. In my case, since I was doing a fairly involved rebuild on my 59, (although I did not remove the body from the frame, as the floors were perfect), I chose to replace every piece of brake and fuel line, as the car was 60 years old, and a previous owner had replaced a section of the long main line, with 2 pieces of that pre flared tubing, with connectors, I imagine, due to rust or damage. But if your other lines look good, I suppose you could reuse some of them.
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Ni-Cop is the same as cunifer. If someone wants to flair steel lines, you have to use a flair tool for steel. Most of the cheaper ones are for copper or aluminum.
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I have used the Ni-Cop line on several cars/trucks, and agree with the praise everyone has given, BUT, I also had a critical and potentially dangerous failure. The teeth of my flaring tool bit too deeply into the line and created a stress point at the base of the flair that cracked from vibration and broke while I was driving. One pump everything was fine the next pump nothing. Make sure there are no chances of vibration in your lines, if they can't be well secured at one location or another I would use steel there........Jim Kramer
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I have recently learned....
Beware there is Ni-Copp sold various places online that is NOT actual Ni-Copp.
Cheap inferior material.
Best to buy it from a reputable place.
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I do have a flaring tool, got a Lisle off Amazon. Although I am not 100% sure the line size through the car yet. Front area looks to be 3/16". I'd been reading about the Ni-Cop and had planned to try that. Thanks for all the info!
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I have recently learned....
Beware there is Ni-Copp sold various places online that is NOT actual Ni-Copp.
Cheap inferior material.
Best to buy it from a reputable place.
You could do us a solid by identifying those stores/vendors selling counterfeit product. I'm sure there are folks here who would want to use this material, and getting inferior product unknowingly could be bad. Do you know how the product was being counterfeited?
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I have recently learned....
Beware there is Ni-Copp sold various places online that is NOT actual Ni-Copp.
Cheap inferior material.
Best to buy it from a reputable place.
You could do us a solid by identifying those stores/vendors selling counterfeit product. I'm sure there are folks here who would want to use this material, and getting inferior product unknowingly could be bad. Do you know how the product was being counterfeited?
Please note I have NO first hand experience with counterfeit ni copp tubing.
I learned of this from another forum.
The member there claimed to have encountered the bogus tubing.
Places cited were evil bay and amazon.
ebay I understand, esp if from China.
Amazon I'm not so sure....
but probably still best to buy from a place like McMaster Carr, or other reputable place.