FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: CV355 on October 21, 2021, 07:41:03 AM
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The Mach 1 was fired up for the first time in over 2 years. The whole car was stripped down to unibody last year and we did a complete rebuild from scratch (with the exception of the 428 block).
The engine sounds downright nasty. But, there are a few items I need to address:
1) Starter is bogged down, voltage drops to 9v when cranking. New solenoid and battery are in the trunk. 2ga cable runs to the starter through a post-style bulkhead. I had it running through a large bus bar straight off the battery, but there must be some stupid amount of resistance along that circuit. The ground was to frame. The tech added a temporary 2ga cable ground from the starter back to the main ground lug from the battery, which seemed to help a little. He said I should go with 0 gauge instead of 2 on the +12 running up to the starter. The same starter and arrangement fired up the old engine no problem. It's a Powermaster gear drive unit that we used to crank the old engine maybe 3-4 times total before we tore the whole car apart. They can start the engine, it just doesn't turn over as fast as it should with that much voltage drop. I don't think the engine is too tight or bound in any way.
2) Cooling. I have a single Spal pusher fan on a Northern 428 radiator. The tech and tuner are concerned that it won't be enough. I'd like to stay electric. I love the look of this setup- does anyone have any experience with them? Single big puller with a shroud:
https://speedcooling.com/product/1967-1970-mustang-aluminum-radiator-22-ds-outlet-3391/
If all goes well, we get the car back from the tuner tomorrow. I then get to put our Halotron extinguisher in it and take it for some test drives up the street and back
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I ran a #2 ground cable from the battery to the rear frame rail and also one from the front rail to the engine. Turns over nicely even when hot. Can't have too many grounds on something pulling that many amps. Also have a single puller electric fan with shroud that covers almost the entire radiator within the shroud. Cools good except extended periods of red lights but cools back down when moving. Each vehicle and engine is different on cooling needs so you will have to experiment if it runs too hot. Example - same car ran hotter with a 428CJ than a 427 Side Oiler.
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I ran a #2 ground cable from the battery to the rear frame rail and also one from the front rail to the engine. Turns over nicely even when hot. Can't have too many grounds on something pulling that many amps. Also have a single puller electric fan with shroud that covers almost the entire radiator within the shroud. Cools good except extended periods of red lights but cools back down when moving. Each vehicle and engine is different on cooling needs so you will have to experiment if it runs too hot. Example - same car ran hotter with a 428CJ than a 427 Side Oiler.
That's what we have running up to the starter. It had no problems before, but I did add the bus bar and the bulkhead. I can't imagine those would have enough resistance to cause this.
I will be adding a full-length ground just to be safe.
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I'd run 0 or 00 for cables if coming from the trunk and be sure to ground to the engine, and then run a ground to the body. The engine needs the direct ground.
As far as the fans, I would say that there is no way the current fan setup is enough. I also doubt that the setup you linked will work with an FE, the water pump is very close compared to a small block. Hard to make make room for room for a single centered electric fan and motor
That being said, it is hard to beat a stock style fan for cooling if it's a street motor. May want to consider it with the current radiator for a while, then if really desired, look for dual Spals as big and bad as you can get
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Do a point-to-point voltage drop test. Start at the battery positive with the DVOM on DCV with the + lead on the battery. Put the - lead on your first union and crank the engine. Observe the voltage under load. It will show you the actual drop, not circuit voltage. So, if you were seeing your system drop to 9V while cranking, the DVOM will show you something like 3.6V. Yes, I know this sounds stupid and won't work since you're not testing + to -, but this is how you see where your electrons are backing up. Test the negative side too.
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FWIW, I'm a firm believer in 00 and full length cables. I've never had a slow starter since I began going that way. (I did have a bad starter one time. I had it re-wound and "Voila"
KS
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I Know It Sounds Too Simple, But Is There Paint On The Rear Of The Engine, Or Is The Seperator Plate Painted? Biggest Cause Of Slow Starters Or Starter Problems With An FE Is Paint On The Mating Surfaces Of The Block, Seperator Plate, And Bell Housing. It Causes High Resistance, I've Seen It Happen To Friends Firsthand Many Times. Seen It Prematurely Burn Up a Lot Of Startere As Well. Just A Thought.
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I will upgrade the cables to 00 Gauge and do the test GerryP recommended
I Know It Sounds Too Simple, But Is There Paint On The Rear Of The Engine, Or Is The Seperator Plate Painted? Biggest Cause Of Slow Starters Or Starter Problems With An FE Is Paint On The Mating Surfaces Of The Block, Seperator Plate, And Bell Housing. It Causes High Resistance, I've Seen It Happen To Friends Firsthand Many Times. Seen It Prematurely Burn Up a Lot Of Startere As Well. Just A Thought.
I'm wondering that myself. I thought I ground down the surface a bit by hand but it's possible that I didn't do a well enough job. That's the first thing I'm checking when I get the car back in my garage tonight. They said it turned over better when they added a temporary ground straight from the starter back to the battery. Leads me to believe there is some crazy resistance somewhere there shouldn't be.
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I don't think you're gonna like the pusher fan at all. First issue is they cover a lot of the radiator. Second issue is they sound terrible, guess it's because
they are deadheaded trying to blow through. All the ones I've been around sound like a jet engine. Steve
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I do not think the fan setup you have will work keep your stock parts
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Pusher fans never work depending on space you have but https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-16927 have a look see if there is a set up that will work for you heat is a big problem where i live and night time temps can sit at 35deg c day time over 40's i run one if those set ups and works a treat never had a drama. Nothing is worse then having to watch temps all the time
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Put the battery in the bed of my 65 F100
Ran 0 or 00 to the solenoid on the inner fender, then the same to the starter ( plus )
Ran 0 or 00 to one of the starter bolts ( minus )
Engine spun faster than it ever did
Ricky.
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Put the battery in the bed of my 65 F100
Ran 0 or 00 to the solenoid on the inner fender, then the same to the starter ( plus )
Ran 0 or 00 to one of the starter bolts ( minus )
Engine spun faster than it ever did
Ricky.
So, instead of a typical engine ground to frame, you ran a dedicated ground from the starter bolt to the battery? I was considering that.
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Aye
Adds but a bit of weight
There is a place close that sells all sorts of wire, they have barrels they put shorter lengths in
They found some pieces a bit longer than I needed and a nice price as well
On the plus cable, I used red shrink wrap over the crimped lugs, black on the minus
Ricky.
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This is the fan setup we run on the cougar, just bought the same setup for our Mustang race car. They move a ton of air, fits well too. You can buy this same fan with our without the relay setup. I'm going to run this same setup on my '62 Galaxie and I'll have the Holley Sniper unit control the fan relays, so I'll have the Sniper stage the fans based on engine temp.
https://www.oldairproducts.com/product/50-5067-dual-fan-assembly
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CE Auto Electric in AZ makes very nice kits for all sorts of auto applications. These are 1/0 cables that are part of a battery relocation kit Tony put together for me.
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Ditch the pusher fan , get the biggest dia puller you can fit on the engine side.
If your upper pulley is limiting you in regards to available space between the radiator and pulley , there is a fan called sidewinder (made by Fanman) where the motor is not in the middle of the fan but off to the side where you normally have tons of room, and im pretty sure you can rotate the fan motor location to best available space.
Many other factors can hurt and help cooling:
Burp system properly to remove all air after the thermostat opens while filling cooling system you want to remove all air before installing the Rad cap..
Ive always drilled a small 1/8" hole at 12 oclock on the thermostat flange to allow air to escape while filling, starting it with the cap off watch or feel when the thermostat opens and slowly top off. You can also give it some rpm at idle to force any trapped air to the highest point in the system (the radiator filler neck).
if you live in a climate where theres no chance of freezing overnight , run more water than coolant (antifreeze). On the west coast Ive always run 80% water and 20% coolant , the coolant will be used for anti corrosion. Nothing dissipates more heat than water.
Run the highest pressure radiator cap that your system will allow , instead of a 12lb cap run a 16lb or slightly more depending upon your build and reliability of your system.
Proper Timing and properly adjusted carburetor always help.
If it runs hot on the street, but cool on the highway, then you usually have a fan issue.
If it runs cool on the street, and hot on the highway, then you usually have a radiator that is not big enough or has some flow restriction within the tubes
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Ditch the pusher fan , get the biggest dia puller you can fit on the engine side.
If your upper pulley is limiting you in regards to available space between the radiator and pulley , there is a fan called sidewinder (made by Fanman) where the motor is not in the middle of the fan but off to the side where you normally have tons of room, and im pretty sure you can rotate the fan motor location to best available space.
Many other factors can hurt and help cooling:
Burp system properly to remove all air after the thermostat opens while filling cooling system you want to remove all air before installing the Rad cap..
Ive always drilled a small 1/8" hole at 12 oclock on the thermostat flange to allow air to escape while filling, starting it with the cap off watch or feel when the thermostat opens and slowly top off. You can also give it some rpm at idle to force any trapped air to the highest point in the system (the radiator filler neck).
if you live in a climate where theres no chance of freezing overnight , run more water than coolant (antifreeze). On the west coast Ive always run 80% water and 20% coolant , the coolant will be used for anti corrosion. Nothing dissipates more heat than water.
Run the highest pressure radiator cap that your system will allow , instead of a 12lb cap run a 16lb or slightly more depending upon your build and reliability of your system.
Proper Timing and properly adjusted carburetor always help.
If it runs hot on the street, but cool on the highway, then you usually have a fan issue.
If it runs cool on the street, and hot on the highway, then you usually have a radiator that is not big enough or has some flow restriction within the tubes
That sidewinder looked perfect but it seems to be out of production. I'm in the process of going through every available fan/shroud combo and measuring for fit. I sort of shot myself in the foot with the piggyback pulley system for the blower, so I really only have 2.875" to work with. I can fit a fan motor on the passenger side of the engine bay just fine since nothing is really going on over there, but the driver's side is almost all blower. Either the fan motor would hit pulleys or belt. There are low profile fan combos but the flow rates are sad by comparison.