FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: bulletpruf on July 18, 2021, 01:25:01 PM
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Buddy of mine is a hardcore Ford guy who has been around a while. He recently picked up some FE bits including an NOS 3.98 stroke crank with the $ sign. Basically a 427 steel crank but with the 428 stroke. He doesn't know if he wants to use this in a max effort build or sell it/trade it for a stroker crank.
I haven't heard of these, but did find this thread when I searched - http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/fe-talk/39236-stock-428-steel-crank.html
Anyone have any info? Any ideas on value?
Thanks
Scott
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The “$” is the trademark logo of the Wyman-Gordon company, the company that made the raw crankshaft forgings for Ford. It’s actually not even a dollar sign, it’s a symbol that has another name, but I don’t remember what it is actually called, maybe someone else remembers.
Is there an engineering number on the crankshaft? Often it’s hand stamped on, or partially hand stamped. Does it have an “SK”, “ASK” or “XE” number on it? Any pictures of the crankshaft rod journals? Full picture of the crank?
It’s certainly possible that Ford could have made a few 3.98” stroke forged cranks from raw forgings, maybe for the Drag Team members, having something like an “SK” number that matches some Ford documentation would be nice. You might want to check with Jay Cushman at Cushman Competition in Maine, he has quite a collection of rare Ford parts, as do a few of our members here.
People have offset ground 391 FT forged cranks to 3.98” stroke cranks also.
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Kevin - Thanks for the info and the questions. I forwarded to my buddy. I'll post details once I hear back.
Scott
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More pictures.
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More pics...
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Another possibility is a welded and stroked 361 or 391 crank,that wouldn't be the first one done, back in the days before the availability of the stroker cranks we have today it wasn't unheard of for someone to take a steel 361 or 391 FT crank have it welded and stroked and have the snout turned down for pass car use.Thats how the whole stroker crank business got its start.Some of the more reputable shops did such fine work that it was hard to tell anything was done.
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What’s the size of the crank bolt?
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It not a welded crank. I have the same crank and they started a C4 steel crank but they non cross drilled.
Rob
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The subject of the C4AE-6303-G forged cranks has come up here, and on the old FE Forum, in the past, and last summer I posted these pictures of one that was in our local friend Kurt G’s collection. To be clear this particular one, and the others I’ve heard of are 3.78” stroke cranks. From information in the past the C4AE-6303-G cranks were part of a 7000 rpm kit Ford offered racers for the 427 High Riser. I asked last year if anyone had a copy of the original Ford memo, since it’s disappeared from the old FE Forum post, but no one posted a copy. I would guess maybe Dennis K. has a copy of the memo. These were a non-cross drilled crank, unlike most of the later 427 forged cranks. This one has the grooved mains which were common on 427 cranks at the time. Hard to tell just from the pictures, but the rod journal on this seems to not be quite as close to the edge of the crank, which would maybe be expected if the other crank was either ground as a stroker, or welded and offset ground. All just speculation at this point, but possible the C4AE-6303-G crank Bulletpruf posted was a raw C4AE-6303-G crank that was finished in 3.98”, or possible it was modified. In any case, a C4AE-6303-G crank wouldn’t normally be a 3.98” stroke crank, so why it still has that engineering number would be more speculation lol.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5y3Pb5FM/7-F3-A3-B4-C-3-D0-C-4-C81-8-B01-2685-F2-F9-F36-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QX5mC3P)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNk53Rzh/1-FBF18-B8-0-EDA-4-A4-E-916-A-60-BA686-D12-D6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sj1DzyrT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdwpR1SB/7-F347998-E2-EE-48-E9-8-BB5-FC5393-F905-C8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/McYYZxHY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t47rGxqL/91-A24973-8052-4-EF4-8-D89-4-B2277-C3558-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9D5PGzqp)
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I had one of those C4 steel cranks, swapped it to Bobby Spears for his Lightweight. It was std and cherry, don't remember if it was cross-drilled, no grooves. In the possession of Cragar Wenger now
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Notations in the SK log book are often as simple as
"Crankshaft S/A ( same as) C6AE-? but use forging C4AE-G" others say "except billet material". I don't have any early crank information only '68 and later.
Randy
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I had always suspected that the steel crank as part of the 7000 rpm kit but didn't know that the initial versions weren't cross drilled.Was the early version of the Lemans rod a part of that too or was it later?
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The "cap screw" rods were developed for the Cammer initially. They were given to "select" Nascar teams to run and test. There were two different SK numbers on the forgings followed by the C5 version and the last version , the C6AE. The C7OE Nascar rod was totally different as we all know. There were MULTIPLE revisions to the rod's manufacturing but the forging numbers were as I noted. If you had all four varieties in a row , the differences are obvious.The rods that went into LeMans engines used SPS rod bolts , not the failure prone tri lobe stock bolts.
Randy
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Another possibility is a welded and stroked 361 or 391 crank,that wouldn't be the first one done, back in the days before the availability of the stroker cranks we have today it wasn't unheard of for someone to take a steel 361 or 391 FT crank have it welded and stroked and have the snout turned down for pass car use.Thats how the whole stroker crank business got its start.Some of the more reputable shops did such fine work that it was hard to tell anything was done.
Regarding this, the 361 that I have and the 391's I've seen (3 of them), have distinct counter weights, that have a large radius.
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Another possibility is a welded and stroked 361 or 391 crank,that wouldn't be the first one done, back in the days before the availability of the stroker cranks we have today it wasn't unheard of for someone to take a steel 361 or 391 FT crank have it welded and stroked and have the snout turned down for pass car use.Thats how the whole stroker crank business got its start.Some of the more reputable shops did such fine work that it was hard to tell anything was done.
Regarding this, the 361 that I have and the 391's I've seen (3 of them), have distinct counter weights, that have a large radius.
Here you go
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I had one of those C4 steel cranks, swapped it to Bobby Spears for his Lightweight. It was std and cherry, don't remember if it was cross-drilled, no grooves. In the possession of Cragar Wenger now
MeanGene -
Was it a 3.78 or 3.98 stroke?
Scott
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The subject of the C4AE-6303-G forged cranks has come up here, and on the old FE Forum, in the past, and last summer I posted these pictures of one that was in our local friend Kurt G’s collection. To be clear this particular one, and the others I’ve heard of are 3.78” stroke cranks. From information in the past the C4AE-6303-G cranks were part of a 7000 rpm kit Ford offered racers for the 427 High Riser. I asked last year if anyone had a copy of the original Ford memo, since it’s disappeared from the old FE Forum post, but no one posted a copy. I would guess maybe Dennis K. has a copy of the memo. These were a non-cross drilled crank, unlike most of the later 427 forged cranks. This one has the grooved mains which were common on 427 cranks at the time. Hard to tell just from the pictures, but the rod journal on this seems to not be quite as close to the edge of the crank, which would maybe be expected if the other crank was either ground as a stroker, or welded and offset ground. All just speculation at this point, but possible the C4AE-6303-G crank Bulletpruf posted was a raw C4AE-6303-G crank that was finished in 3.98”, or possible it was modified. In any case, a C4AE-6303-G crank wouldn’t normally be a 3.98” stroke crank, so why it still has that engineering number would be more speculation lol.
Kevin -
Thanks for taking the time to post the details and the pictures. I really appreciate it.
Scott
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We need to redefine this being not a Ford OEM 3.98 stroke crank but an OEM forging. My understanding is they were shipped as unfinished cranks.
I'll try to drag mine out to see if they is any vendor stamp like Hank the Crank, Reath , Velasco or H&M on it.
Rob
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We need to redefine this being not a Ford OEM 3.98 stroke crank but an OEM forging. My understanding is they were shipped as unfinished cranks.
I'll try to drag mine out to see if they is any vendor stamp like Hank the Crank, Reath , Velasco or H&M on it.
Rob
Thanks for the clarification. Please let me know what you find.
Scott
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I have one of those C4AE-6303-G steel high riser cranks as well, 3.78” stroke and the early cap screw rods that go with it.
I am fairly sure this forging was used through 67 with different final machining instructions, thus the modified (ground and re-stamped) versions used for later 427 versions.
I wonder if this was just a raw forging that somebody had ground with 3.98” stroke. If it had been a Ford cheater crank it would likely have had the casting marks modified like the later cranks to match.
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MeanGene: Cragar Wegner? or Eric Wengen in Elizabeth Colorado? Quite sure he bought Bobby's car and installed a SOHC. He's now building a SOHC Willy's coupe.
Thread on HAMB.
Stopped by his place once because my In-Laws are only 5 miles away.
Richard >>> FERoadster
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I just checked my crankshaft and the only stamping I have found is on the bottom of the the front counterweight,
4134 (NFW, stacked).
Rob
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Richard, Cragar and Eric are the same . Mene Gene is using his nickname , out of his love of Cragar SS wheels.
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Another possibility is a welded and stroked 361 or 391 crank,that wouldn't be the first one done, back in the days before the availability of the stroker cranks we have today it wasn't unheard of for someone to take a steel 361 or 391 FT crank have it welded and stroked and have the snout turned down for pass car use.Thats how the whole stroker crank business got its start.Some of the more reputable shops did such fine work that it was hard to tell anything was done.
Regarding this, the 361 that I have and the 391's I've seen (3 of them), have distinct counter weights, that have a large radius.
Frank when one of the shops welded and stroked factory cranks there was usually some amount of reworking the counterweights too,in some cases they even added counterweights where there wasn't one before.Its also not uncommon to cut down the counterweight radius to make the crank fit into a smaller crankcase,an example being reworking a forged steel y-block crank to fit into a 289 block or a 454 chevy crank to use for a 348 stroker crank.
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It not a welded crank. I have the same crank and they started a C4 steel crank but they non cross drilled.
Rob
Unless you have closely inspected his crankshaft thats a pretty bold statement to make,while I agree that some of the unfinished forgings were likely finished with a 3.98 stroke as yours was many more were finished with a 3.78 stroke and probability is good that some of those were welded and stroked later.
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John, we are talking about the OP's crank, right and it's origin?
If you'll look at Mikes pictures of the FT cranks, you'll see that there is no way that the OP crank could have been made from a FT crank. It doesn't have the markings or crank flange of the OP's and I don't think they would have welded up the radius on the counter weights. Plus the FT cranks are light and use external balance. Lastly, as someone else inferred, the crank bolt would be larger.
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the FT cranks are light
Really? I have a 391 crank that was welded and stroked to 3.98. Want to come and carry it around a bit? That mutha is heavy
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[/quote]Unless you have closely inspected his crankshaft thats a pretty bold statement to make,while I agree that some of the unfinished forgings were likely finished with a 3.98 stroke as yours was many more were finished with a 3.78 stroke and probability is good that some of those were welded and stroked later.
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Well John it's not a bold statement at all. I've owned it over 30 years and looked at it very closely when I posted about the stamping on the counter throw. It is NOS, 3.98, 2.438 rod journal and not a welded stroker.
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Buddy of mine is a hardcore Ford guy who has been around a while. He recently picked up some FE bits including an NOS 3.98 stroke crank with the $ sign. Basically a 427 steel crank but with the 428 stroke. He doesn't know if he wants to use this in a max effort build or sell it/trade it for a stroker crank.
I haven't heard of these, but did find this thread when I searched - http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/fe-talk/39236-stock-428-steel-crank.html
Anyone have any info? Any ideas on value?
Thanks
Scott
Hey Scott! Good to see ya here!
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What I find interesting is that every $ forged FE/FT crankshaft that I have ever looked at did not have that half moon cutout in the flange.
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John, we are talking about the OP's crank, right and it's origin?
If you'll look at Mikes pictures of the FT cranks, you'll see that there is no way that the OP crank could have been made from a FT crank. It doesn't have the markings or crank flange of the OP's and I don't think they would have welded up the radius on the counter weights. Plus the FT cranks are light and use external balance. Lastly, as someone else inferred, the crank bolt would be larger.
Yes Frank at the time of my post about the FT crank possibility the C4AE forging number had yet to be disclosed and when I clicked on the pic thumbnails to read the forging number the pic becomes so large and grainy I still couldn't read it.While the C4AE forging number does exclude it being an FT crank,the appearance of the counterweights on a crank that had been stroked wouldn't necessarily.Also when FT cranks were converted for pass. car use it was normal for the flywheel flange to be thinned to match the pass car version to allow compatibility with car flywheels and bellhousings.As far as welding up the radius on the counterweight the weld was added on the outer half of the throw to increase the stroke including the arms of the throw to allow offset grinding back to the original journal size to increase stroke,the additional weld on the arms of the throw and the outer half of the journal was to allow them to form a new radius when offset grinding it.Any weld added to the inner half of the throw would be ground back off when offset grinding to a longer stroke,and would typically only be required when repairing a badly damaged journal.There was a ton of labor involved which made it expensive and explains why stroking didn't become really common until the availability longer chevy rods that allowed offset grinding to a smaller journal size and the relatively inexpensive cast stroker cranks.
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Unless you have closely inspected his crankshaft thats a pretty bold statement to make,while I agree that some of the unfinished forgings were likely finished with a 3.98 stroke as yours was many more were finished with a 3.78 stroke and probability is good that some of those were welded and stroked later.
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Well John it's not a bold statement at all. I've owned it over 30 years and looked at it very closely when I posted about the stamping on the counter throw. It is NOS, 3.98, 2.438 rod journal and not a welded stroker.
[/quote]But you were commenting on his crankshaft,and while it is the same number as yours others have posted that they have that same number crank in 3.78 stroke and others have said that they have seen them as welded strokers.While I am not disputing that is what yours is,the statement can't be made that because that's what yours is,thats what all of them are.
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Yes Frank at the time of my post about the FT crank possibility the C4AE forging number had yet to be disclosed and when I clicked on the pic thumbnails to read the forging number the pic becomes so large and grainy I still couldn't read it.
Just a tip: When you click on the pic and it gets super large, right click on the big picture and choose "open image in a new tab". It will come up as a full screen picture, not the super large pictures that people post.
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Yes Frank at the time of my post about the FT crank possibility the C4AE forging number had yet to be disclosed and when I clicked on the pic thumbnails to read the forging number the pic becomes so large and grainy I still couldn't read it.
Just a tip: When you click on the pic and it gets super large, right click on the big picture and choose "open image in a new tab". It will come up as a full screen picture, not the super large pictures that people post.
Thanks I knew it was probably something I was doing wrong,my computer skills are limited.
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I have one of these cranks as well along with the story that went along with some of them. Apparently a handful were obtained raw and then cut to 3.98 . I know of a couple more in the area here with old timers.... There was a crank shop in the DC area that did these....