FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: AmerigoHauler on July 07, 2021, 09:15:21 PM
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Hello all, I have a question. What could be the problem with an FE that started oil smoking badly and used 5 quarts of oil to go about 70 miles? This started after a run thru the gears but never going past 5000 rpm.
This is in my truck. A .030 over 428 with Ed heads, an RPM intake, Lunati hyd roller cam and lifters and FPA headers. This combo has given me no problems for the last 5 years. Even with the smoking and oil consumption all my gauges, including o2 are reading normal. I drove it 60 miles home and it ran fine. No missing, bucking, surging, stalling. Just 65 mph, 2500 rpm, smooth as ever. Just cant see anything behind me. It is a little embarrassing.
The truck is home now and I had no time to do anything with it. Just parked it. Trouble shooting comes tomorrow.
Just wondering if anyone has any ideas.
Any and all replies/help would be appreciated. This is a new one on me.
Erich
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pcv sucking oil into the intake ?
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I would say pvc or it sucked in an intake gasket.
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If this is all of a sudden then I also say intake or POV system. Probably intake.
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I hate to say this, but the only time I've had a problem such as you describe, I found a cracked piston on teardown. Couldn't find a reason, but the piston cracked.
KS
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Ken may be right about a piston, but the easier thing to check is the intake gasket on the floor of the ports. Closing the throttle at high RPM will pull a lot of vacuum, which can easily pop the intake gasket into a port.
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I think its a intake gasket but piston is a good idea also.
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If it's a piston, it will puff like a train, out the breather. I had that happen, after a engine over heated, and the piston had 2 broken lands. It sucked oil, like your describing. A compression test will tell the story on that.
W/o the puffing, I say it is the gasket, with that much oil consumption.
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A hole in the piston should cause it to run rough and a sucked intake gasket would change the idle characteristics. Pull the PCV hose and see if it's full of oil . Could also be a broken ring land or broken ring. Either way it has to come apart. Smoking that much will kill the rings with carbon build up.
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The PVC is easy to check, just pull the hose off and plug it.
I used to be a mechanic, for 8 years and I never saw one pull that much oil from a engine. It is not in direct contact with the oil.
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bore scope camera could be handy here if you know some one with one or they are pretty cheap now you could check inside each bore and down the intake before jumping into a huge job like pulling heads.
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X2 on borescope. If you go that route there is likely going to be oil on the intake valves just from normal use. How much you see could be telling. I helped a buddy with a sbc recently who had a pcv sucking oil through a valve cover without a good baffle. The tops of the valves looked like something from a volcanic eruption.
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Ok, first off, Thank you everyone for the replies.
I had a little time today so I figured I'd start by pulling plugs and see if I could narrow things down a bit. #4 is the problem, the plug had a large build up of carbon. It did look like it was still firing though, maybe the MSD unit kept it going. The rest of the plugs looked normal with the exception of #5 which did look slightly darker than the rest.
I did check the PCV yesterday when I was driving it back. I saw nothing irregular so today I pulled the valve and hoses and all looked good. I then pulled the carb to see if there was oil under there but everything looked good also. My PCV hose is connected to the spacer under the carb and is fed by both of the secondary's.
It looks like they pulled the rain out of the forecast tomorrow so hopefully I will have time to pull the manifold and see if the gasket is the problem. If that isn't the issue I will have to make some decisions.
Thanks again to all, I will let post back with what I find. Erich
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The tru-arc snap rings that retain the piston pin in its place come out and then the pin mills a nasty gouge in the cylinder. Hope this is not your problem.
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The tru-arc snap rings that retain the piston pin in its place come out and then the pin mills a nasty gouge in the cylinder. Hope this is not your problem.
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Had that happen to a 63/406 years ago. Puts a nice groove in the block and smoked like a chimney.
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If you haven’t tore it apart yet. Start it up and seal off all of the oil caps, pcv holes except one. Start it up and put your hand over the remaining oil cap hole. If it’s sucked an intake gasket you will feel vacuum in the crankcase
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If you haven’t tore it apart yet. Start it up and seal off all of the oil caps, pcv holes except one. Start it up and put your hand over the remaining oil cap hole. If it’s sucked an intake gasket you will feel vacuum in the crankcase
After you mentioned this I remembered when I was working at a rental store in the 70's that we had a Ford F-600 that did this. Took us a while to figure that one out.
So, this morning I put the carb back on, refilled the coolant and tried it. No vacuum at the oil fill on the left cover with the PCV hole plugged on the other cover. Nothing at all. I let it run until it was warmed up and i noticed that I wasn't getting any smoke or "wind" out of the only opening. I would think if I had a piston or blowby problem I would see smoke with that being the only opening to the crank case. Oh well, I'm letting it cool off now and I will pull the intake.
Thanks, Erich
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A friend of mine had a smoking condition on a brand X and tried two or three sets of intake gaskets, no change. The culprit turned out to be a crack in one of the intake ports in the head. Something to check for.
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At least you have narrowed it down to a specific cylinder ( and only one!). Could be valve stem seal /lack of / valve guide too. That eliminates the PCV valve.
Randy
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Just curious if you used the Felpro Print-O-Seal intake gaskets? They are prone to tearing at the O ring around the ports and allowing oil to be sucked into the ports, and they tend to start separating on the end cylinders first. Certainly wouldn't be the first, or even the hundredth time that has happened.
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I had something similar happen to the 428 I had in my Galaxie. It used so much oil there was oil residue in the tail pipes at the back of the car. I ultimately decided it was sucking oil through my PCV valve. I was running a hi volume oil pump with stock rocker arms and no restrictors. I think it was getting too much oil to the top of the motor. I ended up replacing the the high volume oil pump with a standard unit and the problem went away. I may have changed the intake gaskets too, not sure. It was a long time ago.
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Just curious if you used the Felpro Print-O-Seal intake gaskets? They are prone to tearing at the O ring around the ports and allowing oil to be sucked into the ports, and they tend to start separating on the end cylinders first. Certainly wouldn't be the first, or even the hundredth time that has happened.
The Intake gaskets are Edelbrock 7224. I have read some negatives on these.
Ok, on with the teardown. I found the 2 right rear bolts where not as tight as the rest. These would be the ones by my problem cylinder. They where not loose but they where very easy to start turning out. The rest where much harder to break loose.
The Edelbrock gasket seems to be some sort of multilayer gasket. Some of it stuck to the heads and some to the manifold. It didn't look as bad as I was hoping ;D but the gasket around #4 was wet with oil and was definitely passing oil thru. I just kinda figured the gasket would look a lot worse with the crazy oil consumption I have going on. Although, vacuum is a powerful force.
I was happy that I found no other issues with the engine while tearing it down to this point.
I will start with clean up and reassembling tomorrow.
I do have 2 questions.
I have a set of Felpro MS 90145 intake gaskets on hand. Are these considered good?
Also I was thinking of doing a leak down test. Does the piston have to be at TDC or does it not matter since the rockers are off and all valves are closed.
Thanks again for all the input, Erich
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If you have a compression gauge handy, I would do that before going any further. It's a easy, quick check and if it was me, it would ease my mind, before bolting the intake back on.
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Before you bolt that intake on, make sure that:
1. The flanges are at the right angle and the flanges are straight/flat.
2. No head gasket tabs are sticking up high enough to hit the intake and keep it from sitting down all the way.
3. Use a sealant on *both* sides of the intake gasket. I use a very thin layer of Dow Corning 732 silicone on each side.
4. The MS90145 gasket will work. It's not my favorite, but it hasn't ever given me problems. I prefer a Mr. Gasket 202A for a MR and a 206G for a LR.
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I would not reassemble anything without checking the bad hole. Generally, it is wishful thinking, for something simple, with that much oil use. Almost always a piston, especially if it is cast aluminum. They don't stand up to pre-ignition, something the FE's are subject to, over several years of use.
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The compression test could be done with the intake still off, right? Just put the pushrods and rockers back on and take the plugs out?
Pat
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The compression test could be done with the intake still off, right? Just put the pushrods and rockers back on and take the plugs out?
Pat
Yes it can be done as you stated.
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Also I was thinking of doing a leak down test. Does the piston have to be at TDC or does it not matter since the rockers are off and all valves are closed.
I would just skip the task of the required reassembly of the valve train in order to do a compression test and just follow your original instinct of doing the leak-down test, as it will generally provide greater evidence of any problems.
Generally, one would want the piston at the top of the bore as this is where the greatest sum of wear to the block bore will be evident and provide the most accurate insight as to the overall condition, though this is a little more challenging as one will need to place the piston pretty darn close to T.D.C. each time, otherwise the air pressure applied will push the piston down the bore, sometimes quite abruptly (don't leave the turning wrench on the crank shout! :o )! But if one where chasing just piston and ring component issues (i.g. broken rings and/or piston ring lands) it won't make any difference.
It is actually easier to do the leak-down test with the valve train disconnected, as one wants to be sure both valves are closed anyway; and if one detects evidence of leakage thru a valve, then one can more easily, with say a soft-metal drift and hammer, rap on the valve tip to attempt to upset any particulate material (i.g. carbon) that may if only be temporarily be not permitting the valve to fully seat. ;)
Also, not so much with broken rings but rather with failed piston ring lands, the sealing capability may vary depending on the luck-of-the-draw as to the ability of the segmented land section to perhaps if intermittently to provide support to the ring(s), so sometimes in suspect instances we have found that double testing at both top and bottom travel positions may reveal something askew, or just more confidence in the observation. 8)
Scott.
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This morning I saw the posts about the compression test. I didn't have time to throw the rockers back on but I figured I had time to do a leak down test.
I ended up with:
Cyl #1-17%
Cyl #2-16%
Cyl #3-16%
Cyl #4-15%
Cyl #5-16%
Cyl #6-15%
Cyl #7-16%
Cyl #8-28%
The last one, #8, didn't surprise me because it read lower when I put the new heads on the used engine. That was 5 or 6 years ago.
That's all I had time for this morning. Maybe get more done tonight.
Still want to check the manifold surface for straightness.
Also I was thinking of doing a leak down test. Does the piston have to be at TDC or does it not matter since the rockers are off and all valves are closed.
I would just skip the task of the required reassembly of the valve train in order to do a compression test and just follow your original instinct of doing the leak-down test, as it will generally provide greater evidence of any problems.
Generally, one would want the piston at the top of the bore as this is where the greatest sum of wear to the block bore will be evident and provide the most accurate insight as to the overall condition, though this is a little more challenging as one will need to place the piston pretty darn close to T.D.C. each time, otherwise the air pressure applied will push the piston down the bore, sometimes quite abruptly (don't leave the turning wrench on the crank shout! :o )! But if one where chasing just piston and ring component issues (i.g. broken rings and/or piston ring lands) it won't make any difference.
It is actually easier to do the leak-down test with the valve train disconnected, as one wants to be sure both valves are closed anyway; and if one detects evidence of leakage thru a valve, then one can more easily, with say a soft-metal drift and hammer, rap on the valve tip to attempt to upset any particulate material (i.g. carbon) that may if only be temporarily be not permitting the valve to fully seat. ;)
Also, not so much with broken rings but rather with failed piston ring lands, the sealing capability may vary depending on the luck-of-the-draw as to the ability of the segmented land section to perhaps if intermittently to provide support to the ring(s), so sometimes in suspect instances we have found that double testing at both top and bottom travel positions may reveal something askew, or just more confidence in the observation. 8)
Scott.
I see this posted while I was typing my reply. Perfect timing :)
Thanks again all, Erich
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Cyl #8-28%
And was the bulk of the leakage determined to be thru the intake valve, the exhaust valve, or into the crankcase? ???
Scott.
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Cyl #8-28%
And was the bulk of the leakage determined to be thru the intake valve, the exhaust valve, or into the crankcase? ???
Scott.
When I did this leak down I was up against the clock. I was really just trying to see if I found anything that would give me an "ah hah" moment. I didn't even remove the rags that where stuffed in to the intake ports. I was happy with the results I found because I did know that #8 was a weak cylinder and I was more interested in seeing how #4 did because that was the cylinder with the oil fouled plug.
I did go thru my files and found the leak down results from summer of 2014 when I had just installed the new Edelbrock heads and the engine was still on the stand.
2021 2014
Cyl #1-17% Cyl #1-17%
Cyl #2-16% Cyl #2-12%
Cyl #3-16% Cyl #3-19%
Cyl #4-15% Cyl #4-12%
Cyl #5-16% Cyl #5-12%
Cyl #6-15% Cyl #6-12%
Cyl #7-16% Cyl #7-18%
Cyl #8-28% Cyl #8-28%
These results where from the same gauge set and after approx. 30,000 miles.
Hope this makes sense. My speculation at this time is is the leakage on #8 is into the crankcase.
Erich
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OK, thought I would bring this up to date.
With the leak down test showing no real changes from previous tests, I decided I needed to do the suggested checks and move on. I checked the intake with a straight edge and it was good, couldn't get a.002 feeler in anywhere. I test fit it to the engine and it sat flat with no rocking and I could not get a .002 feeler to go in anywhere I checked. I reinstalled the manifold using the the Felpro MS90145 gaskets using Dow Corning 732 silicone (thin smear) on both sides and in place of the end seals.
Buttoned everything up and decided to do a compression test before I put the carb on. All cylinders where at 190 psi on the 4th stroke except #8 which was 185. # 8 was my known weak cylinder from earlier compression tests and my leak down test.
#4 was the cylinder that was full of oil from my leaking intake gasket.
I fired the truck, let it warm up and set my timing and carb. Everything seemed OK, no smoking and running smooth. I went for a 60 mile drive. After the oil burned out of the exhaust I had no smoking at all even after hard acceleration or high manifold vacuum situations. When I got home and checked the oil level it was the same (Before, it used almost 5 quarts to go 70 miles).
I was not impressed with the condition of the Edelbrock intake gaskets on tear down. With the exception of the 2 manifold bolts at #4 all the other bolts where tight and still the gasket seemed saturated and passing oil. I was surprised at the carbon build up on all of the valves.
I will need to check the intake bolts more often now.
I want to thank everyone for the replies and help. It has been a rough year loosing my mother and my brother with in 3 months of each other. I have been short of time trying to get things tied up and this sudden issue with the truck hasn't helped. I might still get to go camping this year yet!!!
Thanks again to all, Erich
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Glad you nailed it.
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Sorry about ya Folks passing :-[
Best wishes ...
Ricky.