FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: WConley on June 28, 2021, 04:58:46 PM
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Most of you guys probably remember my oil pump dyno thread from earlier this year:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9685.0
You're probably saying to yourselves, "This guy must be an incredible nerd with too much time on his hands! Why go to all of that trouble just to play with oil pump designs that have been around forever?"
FYI you're right about the nerd part ;D But there's I reason I did this. Manufacturers are looking for every way possible to squeeze more economy out of our old dinosaur burners. It turns out the oil pump is a pretty significant parasitic load on an engine. Oil pumps are designed for the worst-case needs of your engine, like towing a heavy load up a mountain on a hot summer day. When you're just turnpike cruisin', the engine is producing much less power and heat. Oil flow can safely be cut by half or less. This saves parasitic load on the engine and increases cruise fuel economy.
Standard gerotor oil pumps have a fixed oil flow for a given engine rpm, so people have had to go to vane-type pump designs to achieve variable flow independent of rpm. These pumps work, but they're complex, delicate, and expensive. They're also very sensitive to oil contamination. Despite this, Ford went to a variable vane oil pump on the new Godzilla truck engine. In the video below, Brian Wolfe explains how using a variable flow oil pump got them to their fuel economy goals without resorting to cylinder deactivation or direct injection. Pretty cool!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJztLbsQ7Y4
So I got interested in variable flow pumps a couple of years ago. The goals of my new design would be:
- Simple, durable, and cost effective
- Close as possible to existing "gerotor" pump technology
- Able to handle dirty oil as well as existing gerotor pumps
- Fail-safe design goes to maximum flow if the control fails
- Compact package, as close as possible to existing pump size
- Able to reduce flow (and pump drive power) at least 50%
Those are pretty lofty goals. It took a couple of years of work, but I got there! The fun part is that I used an FE oil pump (Melling M-57B) as the base for my first prototype. The old dog can learn new tricks :D
Here's a picture of the prototype pump:
(https://i.ibb.co/bN9rQVs/IMG-5475.jpg)
I can't get into too many details on how it works (still too early in the patent process), but you can see a transmission control solenoid on the side of the pump. The solenoid regulates a hydraulic circuit inside that moves mechanical parts to vary the rotor's flow volume. I'll try to anticipate some thoughts people may have:
- I am not just dumping excess oil overboard, like auto transmission pumps do. That's pretty wasteful.
- This is not a variable bypass design that sends extra oil from the output side back to the input. Those controlled-bypass approaches have already been patented. They don't seem to work very well, since Ford even bought one fifteen years ago and it has yet to appear in production. I suspect oil aeration may be an issue based upon my earlier testing...
- Based upon patent searches, this seems to be a unique approach that can massively change the pump's output without adding too much size.
I've spent plenty of time on the test rig with this prototype. Here are a couple of curves showing min (red) and max (green) flow and pressure. I'll attach these charts so you can look at them in better detail. The pump power drops proportionally as the flow and pressure drop:
(https://i.ibb.co/nfYfs6F/Variable-Flow-GPM-Band.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/gmkVz9b/Variable-Flow-Pressure-Band.png)
Here's a shot of the pump mounted to the test rig adapter:
(https://i.ibb.co/RCzXXjH/IMG-6038.jpg)
I also developed a little hand-held touchscreen controller to run the pump. It can set the pressure anywhere within the colored area of those charts. (There is a minimum and maximum built into the pump at any given speed. You can't go below the red line or above the green line. Anything in between is fair game!) Here's what the controller looks like. It plugs right into that control solenoid:
(https://i.ibb.co/GJkP5Vw/Pump-Control-Pendant.jpg)
Here's a video showing the control working at 4,000 engine rpm. The tachometer is showing pump rpm, which is 2,000. When the video starts, the control is off and shows red. I then touch the button and select different pressures. You'll notice the rig speeds up a bit when I lower the pressure. That's because the pump input power drops:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAlSgGHSaaw
Here's a video showing what happens when I disconnect the pump control. You'll see that the pump instantly reverts to max flow. At this point it's just like a standard M-57B pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrg5fPuWveM
I tried to make this as short as possible, but it's two years of work. There was a lot of frustration and plenty of scrap parts along the way. I don't see a lot of interest from aftermarket guys or racers, since a couple of horsepower in savings isn't a lot. Besides, when you're pushing it you'll want full oil flow anyway. Hopefully this attracts the attention of a manufacturer.
I just wanted to share with you guys. There are lots of smart cookies on here! I know some of you guys are secretly as nerdy as I am :) So, flame away!
Oops - Linked to an incorrect video. Fixed
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Very cool! My 19 mustang GT has some sort of variable oil pressure set up. I'm not sure what they're using but it's 15 lbs at idle, 35 going down the road and I forget but 90 or so when revved out.
You can see it bounce up in pressure like you flipped a switch when it hits a certain rpm.
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Very cool! My 19 mustang GT has some sort of variable oil pressure set up. I'm not sure what they're using but it's 15 lbs at idle, 35 going down the road and I forget but 90 or so when revved out.
You can see it bounce up in pressure like you flipped a switch when it hits a certain rpm.
I'm not sure they have put a variable flow pump in the Coyote yet, but it sure seems they have the pump output calibrated to be low at cruise.
I think the next step for me is to develop this approach into a modern crank-mounted pump. It will work with a hole through the rotors.
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It is described as having a relief valve.
From the work manual:
Lubrication System
The engine lubrication system is of the force-feed type in which oil is supplied under full pressure to the:
crankshaft main bearings.
crankshaft thrust main bearing.
connecting rod bearings.
oil galleries.
All other parts are lubricated by splash of the oil.
The lubrication system of the 5.0L (4V) engine is designed to provide optimum oil flow to critical components of the engine through its entire operating range. The heart of the system is a positive displacement internal gear oil pump using top seal rotors.
The heart of the system is a positive displacement internal gear oil pump.
Generically, this design is known as a gerotor pump, which operates as follows:
The oil pump is mounted on the front face of the cylinder block.
The inner rotor is piloted on the crankshaft post and is driven through flats on the crankshaft.
System pressure is limited by an integral, internally-vented relief valve which directs the bypassed oil back to the inlet side of the oil pump.
Oil pump displacement has been selected to provide adequate volume to make sure of correct oil pressure both at hot idle and maximum speed.
The relief valve calibration protects the system from excessive pressure during high viscosity conditions.
The relief valve is designed to provide adequate connecting rod bearing lubrication under high-temperature and high-speed conditions.
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I would encourage everyone to watch the videos. Amazing. How would the end user know what pressure is appropriate for various situations?
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I would encourage everyone to watch the videos. Amazing. How would the end user know what pressure is appropriate for various situations?
Gerry -
I'm operating the controller in manual mode during those videos. I'm planning to test in a vehicle and on a dyno engine later this year. For a real engine the controller can read engine load (vacuum or throttle position), engine rpm, and oil temperature. Based upon those inputs the controller will set pressure from a map.
At lower revs, lower loads, and moderate oil temperature, you'd want lower flow. When you romp it or things get hot, it'll up the flow.
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I was thinking it would have to be controlled by some sort of window switch. Again, what an awesome accomplishment. I can see the long haulers finding a home for that pump. Imagine loping along down the interstate, in overdrive, and 25PSI, not 70PSI. I would imagine that the pump would also reduce oil temperature since it's not absorbing energy just to make pressure beyond what is necessary. I would also think that it would result in cleaner oil since at lower pressure and volume, the filter bypass probably isn't opening.
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I would imagine that the pump would also reduce oil temperature since it's not absorbing energy just to make pressure beyond what is necessary.
That's a good observation! My test rig running at 3,000 rpm will heat the oil up past 230 degrees in ten minutes of running at full pressure...
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I can't help but think of the performance advantages for it.
Tuning on the dyno would be awesome. Oil takes horsepower to move around and it would be nice to be able to dial the pressure down to dial in the horsepower losses.
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Nice work Bill !!
Ricky.
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Thanks Ricky! Appreciate the kind words.
- Bill
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Interesting, was just thinking the other day what became of your oilpump dynoing
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Just read the older thread. Learned a lot. Wow. Thanks!
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This would also be applicable to pretty much any ford distributor driven gerotor oil pump wouldn't it?
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Bill---
You are one of the reasons this site is worth so much. The quality of your thoughts is directly in line with what we have come to expect from Jay. As I sit here thinking over what I've learned from you over the years, I simply develop a big grin!
Go for it!!
KS
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Good Luck!
looking at the internals of that vane pump vs yours looks like a no-brainer. The Godzilla block looks awesome, but having that oil pump gives me the "what were they thinking" vibe; Especially for the super duty line.
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This would also be applicable to pretty much any ford distributor driven gerotor oil pump wouldn't it?
Absolutely :) I shiver to think, other brands too...
The obvious next step is to build a modern crank-driven pump with this technology. It would be nice to partner up with a manufacturer for that effort.
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Bill---
You are one of the reasons this site is worth so much. The quality of your thoughts is directly in line with what we have come to expect from Jay. As I sit here thinking over what I've learned from you over the years, I simply develop a big grin!
Go for it!!
KS
Ken - I really appreciate your thoughtful words. This site is special because we are curious and not standing still. We are also willing to share. Who would have thought these old engines would be making such amazing numbers now?? Thank you again. Your knowledge and insight has been a big contribution here!
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Good Luck!
looking at the internals of that vane pump vs yours looks like a no-brainer. The Godzilla block looks awesome, but having that oil pump gives me the "what were they thinking" vibe; Especially for the super duty line.
I just need somebody with deep pockets to think like you do :D
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I can't get into too many details on how it works.................
Are you still using the production m57 rotor & scroll, though perhaps modified "some"? :-\
And I'm perhaps grasping at straws, but might the tweak have something to do with a permitted change in the rotor to housing to end stop clearance or sealing (as compared against the otherwise flat cover plate); this not actually permitting any notable position change of the rotor, but allowing what might be termed an internal oil circuit rerouting, resulting in a change of the pumping capability? ???
So, flame away!
Remember, you invited comments from the peanut gallery! ::)
Scott.
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Yes and somewhat correct.
The details of how that is accomplished, providing a large and controllable pressure change while not aerating the oil, are pretty involved. Those details are what I am applying for in my patent.
Basing the design on the proven standard gerotor set is important. That lowers the bar for acceptance.
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Just to throw something out there; decades ago we were involved in a racing program and had observed some of the difficulties with the then currently popularly engineered bypass executions both the in-pump and the remote types, and thus began working with a dry-sump oil pump system manufacture on other possibilities. One we considered was using an additional port-plate (that found between the pump sections) opposite the normal one providing porting for controlling the directional flow though the pumping section, this opposing piece with different porting shape to provide say a pumping defeat factor on one end of the rotor while the other continued as normal but with a loss of the output volume and pumping head pressure. We wanted this port-plate to be internally movable in rotation to be able to relocate the timing and area of the relief, and reactive to pressure just as the standard bypasses functioned (with mechanical spring & plunger), this creating variable area of exposure of the high-pressure side of the rotor to the low-pressure side all within the pumping section.
Although our goal was a little different from your current project as we were wanting a variable delivery volume at a relatively constant pressure with the concern of just attempting to solve typical by-bass ailments. But all was for naught, as due to not enough effort on our part, not enough interest by others to participate, all to solve a problem most did not deem as being such. :)
Scott.
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Scott -
That dry sump system sounds like quite an undertaking. The last few feet of the hill are always the hardest! It would have been interesting to see that system work out.
Within a few months of starting, I had my first prototype pump. Through almost miraculous luck, I had designed in a few "afterthought" features "just in case". Those afterthoughts turned out to be the key to the whole thing. The pump worked (somewhat) out of the box. The next eighteen months were a mighty struggle to make it controllable with an adequate range of output. The final result looks a lot like the first version, but the devil has been in the details.
In my experience, that's what it takes to make something really new. Lots of sweat! (If you look at my sig line below, you'll see what I mean. There were plenty of failures to study with this pump along the way...)
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It would have been interesting to see that system work out.
In the end we simply chose to attempt to balance the pumping volume more closely to the requirements via changing the drive rates (remember external pump both dry & wet sump) and establishing an acceptable margin of by-pass in excess of the needs, this with the use of fluid flow meters in testing, and establishing driving rates of the pumps generally at ratios less than the standard 1/2 crankshaft speed. This also required consideration in pumping requirements (leakage rates) within the engine, and less use of oil, when already pumping it, isn't always best, though generally when targeting the engine speeds of most interest, one often ended up with quite low pressure numbers at low speeds, particularly idle, but I have a few Detroit Diesels which operating appropriately will display 60+ P.S.I. at speed but only maybe 5 P.S.I. at idle, and the oil must traverse greater distance, their parts are far heavier, and firing loads quite greater, and they do just fine. But by the same token, after say 12 to 14 gallons per minute at higher rotational rates, although the pumps manufactures will say is well within the capacities (area) of these positive displacement units (again "G"-Rotor @ 1.100" length) there begins to become apparent difficulties with cavitation at the inlet area the pump scroll/rotor void, this seems compounded in the longer rotor/scroll lengths (notice how the new high-speed crank-driven gear pumps are relatively shallow in length/thickness!). But then this is not unexpected as the Caterpillar tractor for which this type of unit was originally designed for in the early part of the previous century didn't approach the speeds of applications as used in more recent times! :)
Scott.
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Congrats Bill.
Pretty wonderful stuff.
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Pure genius Mr Conley - the BEST version of anything is ALWAYS of the simplest in design. Randy M
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Thanks Randy and Marc for the props. I love this place :D
Now I have to figure out how to stop working for the man all the time, so I can spend more time on fun projects! There are lots of things waiting patiently in the shop for me.
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If you get this going and it looks like it will hold up in a street car i would be interested in trying one.
I won't be able to assembly my engine untill the heads are back in production again so looks like next year.
Greg
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If you get this going and it looks like it will hold up in a street car i would be interested in trying one.
I won't be able to assembly my engine untill the heads are back in production again so looks like next year.
Greg
I think it's going to be awhile... I'm looking to license this design to a manufacturer. Until then I'm hand-building a few prototypes at a cost of thousands of dollars each. Ask Jay how much money it takes to design and build stuff :o :o
It's possible that an aftermarket pump builder will bite, and they'll become available. We'll see!
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Great idea Bill and best of luck in partnering with maybe an OEM car manufacturer. After your great valve spring vids that were most enlightening, this one looks like a winner!
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I've been reading this thread for a few days know. Can't think about what to say other that it's awesome that a development for the FE could be picked up by a broader market. Shows that almost anything is possible with the right mindset and motivation. My old 390 pegs the oil pressure gauge and I am always thinking that it's such a waist.
Great development for the FE world for sure. Congratulations!
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Thanks Bob and John! It's been a very fun ride :) There's a lot of satisfaction seeing some crazy thing you dreamed up actually working in front of you.
Now the hard part! How to get the right partner interested. Working on that...
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WConley, I'm really happy that you were able to get this pushed from an academic exercise to a working prototype. It's been fun to follow your progress. I applaud your efforts and hope you find a buyer.
Mike
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WConley, I'm really happy that you were able to get this pushed from an academic exercise to a working prototype. It's been fun to follow your progress. I applaud your efforts and hope you find a buyer.
Mike
Thanks Mike! I have a couple of other (non- FE) irons in the fire too. They're also quite ambitious and working out well. Sooner or later the right person will notice :)