FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on June 01, 2021, 04:01:41 PM
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Today was probably one of the most satisfying dyno days I've ever had.
For those that are reading that are not familiar with JJ, JJ is my pet 352 project that has been ongoing for the past couple years. Ross nicknamed him JJ because I called it Junky Junk.
JJ came from a '66 F100 off of Craigslist. It came to me as a worn-out 2 barrel motor. Junk. But it ran. I changed the oil in it, primed the pump, then me and Ross put it on the dyno for fun during one of his trips to visit. It ended up making 208 hp @ 4250 and 300 lb-ft with the Autolite 2100. Changing to a Holley 500 2-bbl got us to 234 hp. Changing the intake to a BT 1x4 and the carb to a 650 DP got us to 264 hp and 344 lb-ft.
Going through the entire engine was the goal, along with some upgrades. It ended up with a freshly ground 3.500" crankshaft, Molnar rods, some Racetec pistons (10.25:1) with some 1mm/1mm/2mm rings, one of my custom solid rollers, and a ported "F" PI intake. With a Holley 830 carb, it made 433 hp @ 6800.
I had always planned on this engine being a dyno mule, so we were then off to do some A/B testing. The next variable that we changed was some head work. The heads are factory C6AE-R heads, with 2.08/1.6 valves with 5/16" stems. I had put on some small diameter PAC valve springs with some Manley titanium retainers in preparation for all the testing, so we only needed some flow. With Joe Craine's porting, we went from 240 cfm to almost cracking 290.
With it all back together, during the next dyno session we were rewarded with 465 hp @ 7200.
Replacing the ported PI intake with a BT 2x4 MR intake and a pair of Holley 600's really didn't change the numbers much. It made 450 hp until we watched the videos and found out the vacuum secondaries weren't opening. Once we figured that out, a couple of zip ties got us back up to 465 hp.
That's where we were until a month or so ago.
I always thought the engine was lacking *something*. It just didn't want to accelerate well and I honestly thought that the engine just should be making more hp. I first thought was the camshaft had too much overlap (and I'm still leaning towards that way, but after today I will put that on the back burner), so I ordered a new camshaft to be on the ready. I was also thinking that the runner length on the intake manifolds that I had been using just weren't tuned correctly for the rpm range and application that I was trying to push.
Pulling the BT MR intake off, I bought a new FE Power intake adapter and a new Weiand 351C tunnel ram off of Joe Craine. Both had been ported by Joe and I thought if the engine was going to do anything at all, it should do it with this combo.
I had SCE gaskets make me some .030" LR and MR intake gaskets since the heads and block have been milled to death on this engine to get to a decent compression ratio without putting a big heavy domed piston in the engine. With a flange cut on the adapter, we were in good shape, and some Mr. Gasket 351C 4V intake gaskets allowed me to bolt the tunnel ram on.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51195099959_50511bac85_z.jpg)
I had been waiting for the day and after a long Memorial Day weekend, I decided today was going to be the day.
I got to the dyno at 8:30 this morning and got the engine mounted up on the dyno cart. It wasn't too long before we were making noise. Reset the timing to 42° and let the engine warm up.
After warm-up, the first full pull out of the gate rewarded us with 476 hp @ 6400. Very odd that it moved the peak hp rpm down that far, but hey, we gained 11 hp from last time, so I was giggly.
I had put my iPhone and camera tripod next to the engine, with the camera zoomed in on the secondaries. I watched the video after the dyno and the secondaries were opening, but I just didn't think they were opening as far as they could.
I had talked with Jay on getting some extra carburetors down here just in case. Jay sent me a set of his dyno mule 660's to use (much obliged, Jay). I had driven around to several different places between Sunday and Monday trying to find some heim joints but after going to 3-4 different places, I had given in and just decided that we would have to rig something together to make them work.
We dug around through the "junk piles" at Dale's and found a piece of angle steel with a bunch of holes drilled in it. That would have to work.
Got the carbs bolted down, fuel lines hooked up, jogged the pump a couple of times to get fuel pressure, and noticed that one carb was puking out the vent. Pulled it off, pulled the bowl off, everything looked ok, but when we blew through the fuel fitting, there wasn't any way that we could completely block off the air, so I just went ahead and pulled a bowl off of one of my 600's and bolted it on. That fixed the situation temporarily and we were ready to fire it up.
JJ just doesn't have the butt to handle a pair of 1:1 linkaged 660's down low, so loading the dyno was an interesting task. Glad I wasn't driving.
First pull with the 660's got us to 496 hp @ 7000 and 441 lb-ft of torque at 5600.
At that point, I was ecstatic, doing little dances, and I think I even gave JJ a kiss.
We were so close to 500 that I made the executive decision to pull the belt off the water pump and mounted an electric water pump motor to the water pump.
With the engine not driving the water pump, we made 512 hp @ 7000 and 445 lb-ft of torque at 5800.
I called it a day.
I still have this new camshaft to install, but I'm trying to logistically and strategically plan my next step. I think my next goal is to get my own pair of 660's and mount them side saddle with the appropriate tunnel ram linkages. Obviously that won't make more horsepower, but I'm so excited about the appearance and performance of this engine that I plan to go that route for good.
I hate to dive right into the engine internally, but after receiving my aluminum rods, it might be nice to throw some high compression at it and see what happens.
As a recap:
*Stock 352, Autolite 2100 - 208 hp
*Stock 352, Holley 500 - 234 hp
*Stock 352, BT 1X4 MR, 650DP, 264 hp
*Rebuilt 352, stock heads, ported PI - 433 hp
*Rebuilt 352, ported heads, ported PI - 465 hp
*Rebuilt 352, ported heads, BT 8V MR, Holley 600's - 465 hp
*Rebuilt 352, ported heads, ported intake adapter, ported Weiand 351C TR, Holley 600's - 476 hp
*Rebuilt 352, ported heads, ported intake adapter, ported Weiand 351C TR, Holley 660's - 496 hp
*Rebuilt 352, ported heads, ported intake adapter, ported Weiand 351C TR, Holley 660's, electric water pump drive - 512 hp
If you haven't watched the videos about JJ on my YouTube channel, I would encourage you to do that. Later on I will put some dyno videos up of today's adventures.
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Laughing out loud because it’s just to cool.
A 352.
Congrats Brent, JJ’s a keeper.
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Congratulations! I am glad you finally found a combination you are happy with. Like I said in an earlier post, I have never had as good power with 1850s as with the 4224s or larger carbs on a tunnel ram or tunnel wedge. Joe-JDC
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Well done, not sure I will ever get the black off my work Levis from JJ when we first spun it. If I remember right, JJ bit you too and burned your coat? Was it that one?
Well done, and with the amount of pulls you've made and as good as it's running, it's a testament to a very good build and builder.
I got me a spare set of TFS heads here...just sayin :)
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Fantastic result!!
I had no idea the water pump took that much power.
It would be fun now to add a vacuum pump to this.
See how far above 500HP you can get.
Cheers
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Great Brent! I'm glad I could help :)
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That’s really great, I’m glad you got 500. This is a fun adventure to watch.
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Great Brent! I'm glad I could help :)
Yep, you did good.
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Excellent Brent and it also looks great. big pickup with the carbs but also I didnt realize you get so much from the electric water pump. I always figured maybe 8-10 but 16 you could feel that much horse in the seat of your pants.
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Very nice!! I do love it when a plan comes together :D
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I am really surprised you got 26 HP from the Autolite to the Holley 2bbl. That is a lot. A lot. Until you see that the change from the Autolite to the BT intake with the 650 gets +56 HP. That is an astounding difference. I wouldn't have expected to see more than at best a 10 horsepower difference with a stock 352.
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Very cool results and thanks for documenting so much. Looking forward to your next videos!
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Brent, did you decide what chassis to drop JJ into?
Also, I see the breathers with the nipple on your Dyno engines. Are they connected to the Dyno exhaust or a more advanced vacuum system? I’m assuming if connected to the exhaust that the WOT nature of Dyno pulls makes for reduced crankcase pressure even with mufflers?
That tunnel ram on there is sexy.
.
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Looking good, Mr Kotter :)
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Brent, did you decide what chassis to drop JJ into?
Also, I see the breathers with the nipple on your Dyno engines. Are they connected to the Dyno exhaust or a more advanced vacuum system? I’m assuming if connected to the exhaust that the WOT nature of Dyno pulls makes for reduced crankcase pressure even with mufflers?
That tunnel ram on there is sexy.
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My goal is a 66-67 Falcon. It will have to be a little further down the road when I have more room. We are looking for a piece of land right now so we can build another house and a bigger shop. I'm out of room.
The breather with a nipple has just been on the 352. I put it there because it was a nostalgic breather for the valve covers. We do have a header-vac setup on the dyno but with standard tension rings, I usually don't see any gains. We did try it on the 352 and didn't see a difference.
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I cut the oil filter apart last night and it was clean as a whistle. The oil smelled a little gassy, which makes sense because I was watching the A/F drop to 10:1 when we were first loading it on the dyno with the 660's.
I debated on changing the oil last night, but I think (unless anyone else has any brainstorming ideas) it's time to pull it down. Nightmist wants the Molnar rods out of it and I think I'll put some of the other parts up for sale including the pistons, camshaft, etc.
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Nice work Brent blower zoomies and alcohol ;D
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That’s pretty cool Brent, I’m glad you stuck with it!
500+hp out of an all iron 350 cube motor is just awesome.
Keep it up, I wanna see if a little fine tuning of cam and Cr might get you to
550.
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Congratulations! I am glad you finally found a combination you are happy with. Like I said in an earlier post, I have never had as good power with 1850s as with the 4224s or larger carbs on a tunnel ram or tunnel wedge. Joe-JDC
660's are good at one thing.... and they are REALLY good at it :P
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Cool.
I usually see at least a dozen HP from the water pump. When I see an internet pull without the belt spinning the pump I automatically subtract at least that much from the numbers. In comparison, and alternator only takes one or two. My dyno actually has an alternator hooked up in the back on a belt to keep the battery and any EFI stuff happy...
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do you have access to other 351c intakes.. be a neat comparison to the specific fe intakes
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So I'll probably end up changing the oil and keeping it together for a little while longer.
I sent Jay's carbs back to him, so that means that I really need to get a set of my own here and on the dyno just to establish another baseline for future changes.
Drew is building me a set of 660's of my very own, but I plan on mounting them sideways and using a traditional 351C tunnel ram Enderle linkage. The way we rigged it the other day made it really hard to pull. In addition, I had Drew put metering blocks on the rears of the carbs for some extra tunability.
Here's a picture of our expanded metal throttle linkage from the other day:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51222113887_03316fab07_c.jpg)
Also, here's a dyno sheet from one of the pulls where we were able to pull it down to below 4000 rpm. In my mind, it still had enough torque down there to be streetable, especially in a light car with a deep gear. Sometimes we tend to forget that a 400-500 hp engine is still very lively. This little engine at 3600 made more hp and a lot more torque than my 2002 4.6L Mustang and that car was pretty fun with a 4.10 gear and a 5-speed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51223592444_35d0d5a1df_c.jpg)
Next time I head to the dyno, I'll try to make note to get the oil temp hotter. I definitely left a little horsepower on the table there, but it was a cool day and it was pretty hard to get any heat in the engine at all, plus I just didn't make as many back to back pulls which usually gets the oil temp up to 170-180°. Even on the 512 hp pull, we were only at 140°.
When I take my own stuff down there, I just watch the water temp off the gauge off the cooling tank to save myself the time of putting a sender in the intake manifold. That's why the water temp looks like it does. In reality, it was about 140-150°.
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Drew's got the new carbs in the oven, so I have some accessories coming to mount them.
I mocked up a 750 Holley DP and I'm going to have trouble with the accelerator pump bits hitting the tunnel ram since I'm mounting them sideways. Looks like I'm going to have to use some 1/2" shear plates to make everything clear, but with this cam, the shear plates are probably a good idea anyway.
A Cleveland intake has (4) 5/16" bolts on the center holes. Jay's early adapters only have two of those holes drilled and tapped, which caused a slight glitch in the plan, since the two center 5/16" holes on the driver's side is what the tunnel ram linkage post mounts to.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51229585380_3ccbf5b56d_z.jpg)
I thought about how to do this and decided to just tap the existing hole to a 7/16-14 thread and then use a thread insert that will screw in and lock in. I found one at McMaster that had the right length and center thread, so I have a pack of those coming.
I'd really like to swap cams, but since I sold my 600's and returned Jay's 660's, I really need to establish another baseline with fresh carbs in order to see if the cam makes a difference.
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Brent, I know it kinda goes against the theme of project JJ.
But a thought just popped in my head, just for kicks and giggles, how cool would it be to
Throw a set of Jays small bore heads on that thing and give it a few pulls.
You know, for science or something.....
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Well, this will be the last dyno session before disassembly. Got a pair of modified/custom 660's from Drew and have them mounted sidesaddle with a pair of 1/2" shear plates and a pair of 1/2" open carb spacers. An Enderle 351C linkage kit was added with a little modification of the intake adapter.
Last time on the dyno, it made 512 hp @ 7000. I'm really hoping that this combo will give me at least 10 more horsepower, but we'll see.
After that test, I bought some Driven 5W-20 oil that I'll swap out. It currently either has Brad Penn 30W or Brad Penn 20W-50 in it, I can't remember. We'll see if a thinner viscosity will be worth a few ponies.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51273903848_db73e8a5cd_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274458044_8efa846a1f_z.jpg)
The plan after that is to do a complete tear down, get the block and heads back in the bake/tumble process, remachined, then reassembled with some different rods and pistons. I'm contemplating a complete exterior renovation as well, changing the Ford Blue to satin black, with a Milodon pan, some chrome Milodon valve covers, etc.
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Haha, this would be a good time to try a crank scraper. Maybe it would show a small gain.
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I have been curious about the bottom end. What type of main setup are you using for this high reving small displacement (relatively) engine?
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I have been curious about the bottom end. What type of main setup are you using for this high reving small displacement (relatively) engine?
ARP main studs. Balanced crankshaft. Coated bearings.
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AIR — American Iron Roadster
All of the rules that apply to the FR/GR class apply here, but the engine used must be from a production American car or pickup prior to 1973 with an iron block and cylinder head. Welding or brazing is only allowed on the block or head for the purpose of repair, so exotic port rerouting is out of the question. The only engine class in AIR is C, so maximum engine displacement is 373.99 cubic inches. Electronic fuel injection, computer controlled ignition, and data collection methods are all prohibited.
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AIR — American Iron Roadster
All of the rules that apply to the FR/GR class apply here, but the engine used must be from a production American car or pickup prior to 1973 with an iron block and cylinder head. Welding or brazing is only allowed on the block or head for the purpose of repair, so exotic port rerouting is out of the question. The only engine class in AIR is C, so maximum engine displacement is 373.99 cubic inches. Electronic fuel injection, computer controlled ignition, and data collection methods are all prohibited.
Poteet's 61 Starliner would be a great match. 8)
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Sounds like a perfect class for a 4.125 x 3.5 engine (374.19 ci), with Blair's heads and a wild cam :)
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Great job on jj the 500 holley 2bbl is a great carb i bought one when they first came out really wakes a 289 mustang up always thought two of them on a two four intake may be worth a try.
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Great job on jj the 500 holley 2bbl is a great carb i bought one when they first came out really wakes a 289 mustang up always thought two of them on a two four intake may be worth a try.
I did three of them on a 3x2 setup. Dunno how they worked out yet as customer is still building. Ran good for me but I didn't have the throttle setup to drive them.
I kinda want to make a 3x2 4412 setup with the center having annulars, but I doubt I'll have the time in the near future.
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Jerry C and I did a tunnel ram on a 333 Y-Block with 2 2bbl 650s.. Worked really well...
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How the hell did I miss this thread LOL. This like how I want the 351C to end up in the Falcon. But have spent the last 2 months fighting gremlins in the single 4 setup.
Do you have the specs on dual 600 calibrations handy? Would like to compare. Not outside of sending my pair to Drew either. My ideal setup here for the 351 is the gas tunnel ram and a single 750 on methanol. Had bogging issues with it, but after a long series of issues I think that has all been in the ignition. Which has been replaced with a no bullsnot 7AL-3 MSD box.
The 351C ram is just too cool not to find a way to run it
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/351cNotes/351C_TRL.jpg)
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Do you have the specs on dual 600 calibrations handy? Would like to compare. Not outside of sending my pair to Drew either.
you have drill bits bro, you do NOT need to send me your carbs.
List number 1850
Type 4160
Primary
Float side hung
Booster straight .136
Pump nozzle .025
Pump type and cam white #2
Idle air bleed .063
High speed bleed .031
Metering block# na
Main Jet 66
Power valve 6.5
PVCR .039
Emulsion 2@.028
Idle Feed restriction .028
Secondary
Mechanical or Vacuum? vs
Spring color light white
Diapghram length std
Float side hung
Booster .136 straight
Idle air bleed .028
High speed bleed .028
Metering block/plate# 9
Idle Feed Restriction .031
Jet size .067
just a std basic 1850 build. Main focus is reducing pvcr and idle air bleed. Single 4v are no different than 2x4, main issues are that they want to be set richer at idle and leaner at wot. If you plunk two stock 1850s on a 2x4 setup, it'll run... and run ok for the most part, but you'll have lean shudders off idle and 10:1 at WOT.
If he'd had 75 more ci, the secondaries would have functioned more "normally." a 352 simply needs to rev pretty high to get those secondaries moving. I guess I could have put a vac tube in the venturi, but I find two things to be true when shipping out carbs to an engine I can't tune.
1. no one complains about a slightly rich idle, but they'll freak out if it's too lean... heck they'll even claim it's too rich due to the smell.
2. A massive bog if the secondaries flop open gets a complaint. Secondaries being slow to open typically goes unnoticed.
the 660s I did for him are a little unique with a few things most people wouldn't think of.... I'll talk about that some other day.
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Thanks very much for that. I may have already done some of those mods to the 1850s. I actually used a purple spring in the back of both to slow those secondary openings and hopefully reduce opening flutter. This 351C is shift limited to 6300 due to the hydro rollers in it, so they'd not open much anyway. It runs through the lights 1/8 mile right at 6000. I'd rather it leave hard and pull decent than anything. Had some stumble issues testing the ram and an alcohol 750 but over the last 18 months I think a lot of those were the ignition system starting to fail. Spent a lot of time chasing ghosts for sure. 7AL-3 box installed this week with a single 750, have not drag tested it yet. Once I get that fixed I'll go back to testing the ram. 4600+ stall, stage at 2200 so there's not a lot of "off idle" to worry about. Mostly getting the pump shot right and having enough to carry through for the mains to start up. Mine are 1:1, don't see any need for progressive unless that's the only way to get the back one to delay pump shot to carry through the 60' cone. I usually run with a single 650DP for bracket racing, but I'd have more fun with the ram for sure LOL. Why not.
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ideas:
-run two different pump nozzles, get crazy, throw a .035 and a .025 in there
-or get your mains online sooner, if you don't want to reduce hsab, make mainwell smaller
-use a restriction and light spring for vs (ie, take the ball out, drill/tap main body for a restrictor, start at .050 and go bigger as needed
You say not a lot of idle to worry about, but richer idle can help with the before mains issue.
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Brett I would not of guessed that much horse power difference between the Autolite and the Holley, I used to use the Autolite for fuel mileage in the FE trucks.
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Hey Bilge Rat- have you ever messed with paired 4777's? I ran a pair on my Edelbrock crossram in the late 70's, "trick" mods of the day, cut down air horns etc., pretty good heads and a 324/590 Sig Erson, and it ran pretty well- extremely responsive. I recently pickup up another 351C Weiand tunnel that was off a 351,, also with 4777s mounted sideways and "dyno-tuned" by someone "around Concord". PO said it ran real well, I have not touched it since bringing it home. I also have a set of those 750dp "tunnel ram" carbs that were supposed to be the trick replacement for the 660's that kinda went bust. And a pair of 660s on a Dove TW on the shelf
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On the ram, I usually tinker to get best vacuum, then open up the idle screws at least 1/2 turn more. You pointed out a key thing that people miss - if you smell it, it's lean - not fat. The 302 with a ram and two 1406 Edelbrocks liked .035 on the shooters. I think I have 37s in the 1850s. The runner volume in a 351C ram is way more than in a 302 style ram and velocity in the intake is lower, so that's part of the problem moving the car at the hit. If I remember, I got it to leave but it felt like it ran out of shot just before the 60'. It would nose down a bit then pick up and go. Was thinking maybe a Reo pump on the back with a 35 or 37 to extend the shot but will have to add at least 1/2" spacers under the carbs to give clearance for the pump.
I try to think "what works for one 4 bbl on a 4 cylinder should work as two 4bbls on an 8". I've got two 650DPs/4777-2s, that could be worth a try too - that's a lot of pump timing and tinkering LOL. Mounted sideways would make a 7.50 1/8 mile car look like a Pro Stock haha.
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Hey Bilge Rat- have you ever messed with paired 4777's? I ran a pair on my Edelbrock crossram in the late 70's, "trick" mods of the day, cut down air horns etc., pretty good heads and a 324/590 Sig Erson, and it ran pretty well- extremely responsive. I recently pickup up another 351C Weiand tunnel that was off a 351,, also with 4777s mounted sideways and "dyno-tuned" by someone "around Concord". PO said it ran real well, I have not touched it
I haven't messed with dual 4777's. I'm a huge fan of the early 4778 with the bell boosters and staging linkage. That was a possible alternative for Brent as well as I had two on the shelf. I do wish it had the larger bells like CJ primary or AC/AD carbs. They are real zippy when the boosters come online.
No expert on the subject, but AF ratio isn't always equal. Bells feel so much stronger like Annulars even if at the same AF ratio as straight leg or downlegs.
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When I get the basic issues sorted on the car I'll set up the Innovate on board data logging. Then I can start playing with some real feedback from the car. The baseline setup is a 4777, leave 2200, shift 6300, 7.55-7.57 @ 88.5 MPH. It was printing tickets in May, then everything fell apart. Working to get back to base.