FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Private Classifieds => Topic started by: turbohunter on May 02, 2021, 03:07:54 PM
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Anybody have a spare crank oil slinger hanging around?
The one that came on my engine is beat to hell.
91306 to calculate charges.
Thanks
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Hmm, it seems they are not needed these days as the two functions they perform (slinging oil on the chain and shielding the front seal) are not necessary any more.
Now that I’m thinking about it I do seem to recall an old discussion on this. Maybe it was the old FE site. Don’t remember.
Anyway, I don’t need one anymore.
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Marc, I would be more than happy to send you one if you want.
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Marc
I'll bring one to your house if you buy me an In-N-Out double cheeseburger.
Tommy
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I actually always use them. Can't hurt...
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I actually always use them. Can't hurt...
Same here. I can see no downside to directing oil away from the front seal. Same with the rocker drain trays and lifter valley baffle plate. Some may tend to leave them out, I really see no downside to reusing them. I doubt that Ford engineered and installed these pieces because they felt like wasting money on things of no value. Rebuttal from Brent in 3,2,1......
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I actually always use them. Can't hurt...
Same here. I can see no downside to directing oil away from the front seal. Same with the rocker drain trays and lifter valley baffle plate. Some may tend to leave them out, I really see no downside to reusing them. I doubt that Ford engineered and installed these pieces because they felt like wasting money on things of no value. Rebuttal from Brent in 3,2,1......
No rebuttal. Just you knowing how I feel about it though makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. ;D
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Was hoping this would spur a little bit of debate.
Greg is sending me one. I’ll debate with myself whether to use it or not.
This makes me curious about the difference in a 1958 seal vs today’s.
Is it purely the materials used to make the part or is the design of the seal also better?
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I use them, I like how it fits with the timing cover and should direct oil to the small gear. Can't hurt protecting the seal a bit either
If I was in a bind and had to get it running, I wouldn't lose any sleep, but if I had one, I wouldn't leave it on the bench
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I use them. There must be thousands of them laying around from guys installing a new camshaft and forgetting to put them back on. I don't know how many times I've looked down and there's the slinger just laying there. Of course I've already put the damper back on. Kinda like flaring a line then seeing the fitting you forgot to put on first.
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Was hoping this would spur a little bit of debate.
Greg is sending me one. I’ll debate with myself whether to use it or not.
This makes me curious about the difference in a 1958 seal vs today’s.
Is it purely the materials used to make the part or is the design of the seal also better?
Seals are better. Timing chains are better (double row, and not made of plastic).
I won't disagree that Ford thought it was of value.........in 1958. In 60's technology, there were a lot of things that were of value (rope seals, generators, etc.) Technology changes though.
I also won't degrade anyone for using them. It's a prerogative thing.
But I can prove to you that none of those factory tins are necessary today, simply by the fact that I haven't used a single one in any Cleveland, Windsor, or FE that I've built in the past 18 years. I can attest that I haven't had one single timing cover seal leak in all that time. FE's with Victor intakes can't use the drip tins (because there are no holes to drain through), but get the oil back to the pan just fine without them. Aftermarket blocks with ribbed lifter valleys and link bar lifters function just fine without the valley trays. Race engines with belt drives don't have room for slingers but the seals seem to do their jobs for seasons.
Should you use them? Sure, if you feel the need. Are they necessary? Nope.
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But I can prove to you that none of those factory tins are necessary today, simply by the fact that I haven't used a single one in any Cleveland, Windsor, or FE that I've built in the past 18 years. I can attest that I haven't had one single timing cover seal leak in all that time. FE's with Victor intakes can't use the drip tins (because there are no holes to drain through), but get the oil back to the pan just fine without them. Aftermarket blocks with ribbed lifter valleys and link bar lifters function just fine without the valley trays. Race engines with belt drives don't have room for slingers but the seals seem to do their jobs for seasons.
I aspire to be perfect in everything I do also.....someday ::)
To be fair, Brent, you take multiple steps to aid in oil drainback in heads, or to control the oil before it even gets there. Longtime forum members know those tricks also, but the average or occasional backyard builder often doesn't know about, or take those steps. In those cases, the rocker tins can absolutely be of advantage.
And the vast majority of builds out in the world are done for long term use. I have yet to see an engine that has been together for 5-10-20 years that doesn't drip or seep someplace. Heat and cycling degrades seals and gaskets over time, and there's nothing anyone can do about that. Heck, just time alone will degrade seals and gaskets. Anyone that says otherwise is living in a fantasy world. A slinger won't make one bit of power, or stop a leak from happening, but it just might help in the long run. Tins won't make a bit of difference when you open up returns, keep tolerances tight on rockers and control oil flow to the heads, but on a backyard build, or a refresh of a stock engine, they most certainly can help to keep from flooding the heads.
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This is a subject that always gets in everyone's craw. Doesn't matter which forum we're on, whether it's an FE forum, Cleveland forum, Windsor forum, etc., there are guys on there that gasp at the fact that guys assemble engines differently than how they were assembled when they were new.
I don't mean anything against anyone at all, I'm just stating that if you choose to not leave those parts in there, the engine will be just fine.
Doug, I always read what you say very carefully, because you are one of the guys on here that has knowledge and experience to back it up. I will say though, that the only way I see the rocker tins being anywhere near essential, is when the drains in the heads are packed full of sludge and the oil can't get back any other way. Otherwise, for a new build, or someone bolting on new rockers, etc., they can be tossed.
I also hope that your first line wasn't a dig at me, as I didn't understand what it meant. If it has something to do with my timing cover leak line, I will say that I've had customers come back after years and tell me that a valve cover gasket was weeping, or an oil pan gasket on an aluminum block leaked, but I'll still stand by my statement that (to my knowledge), I've never had a timing cover seal leak. I do use a fixture to install timing covers, make sure the seals are lubed up well on first startup and always use a new balancer spacer. Maybe I was born with it. Maybe it was Maybeline.
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always use a new balancer spacer.
Interesting comment. I’m assuming the spacer gets worn and will leak if the diameter is not up to spec.
As far as arguing which is better, I can’t see any reason to get upset about anyone’s decision in this case. But in discussion on a subject some ideas I had not thought about earlier show up like the above. This is valuable to me. I can imagine that if I stick the engine together and not use a slinger then my spacer is worn, I may have a leak and figure Brent was full of it. However it would have been my fault though for not checking the spacer. So thank you guys for putting your ideas out there. I just hope we all remember that we all love the same thing and there are different ways to do it. Discussion good.
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They may not serve their original purpose and I misplaced mine during reassembly. I didn't use it and the oil seal leaked. I installed and lined up the cover with the factory crank snout tool too. I guess if you're just putting mileage on a quarter mile at a time you're fine. If you actually drive the car I feel it's better to have one. My two cents. Maybe, just one and a half...
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They may not serve their original purpose and I misplaced mine during reassembly. I didn't use it and the oil seal leaked. I installed and lined up the cover with the factory crank snout tool too. I guess if you're just putting mileage on a quarter mile at a time you're fine. If you actually drive the car I feel it's better to have one. My two cents. Maybe, just one and a half...
I'll have to show you my install tool sometime that centers the timing cover over the crank snout. If you use the balancer spacer, there's a chance that the timing cover's weight will depress the seal on one side before you get it snugged down.
That's a good point about the engine's intended purpose. Hard to get seal/gasket issues when the engine is only driven the equivalent of 25 miles in a season. However, I've also got customers who drive their cars on a regular basis without issue. Had a customer call me up this past Saturday, who I built a 427MR for 5 years ago. He stuck it in a Shelby Cobra replica, put some break-in miles on it, then took it on several Hot Rod Power Tours, where he said he drives around 2000 miles on each of those.
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I guess if you're just putting mileage on a quarter mile at a time you're fine. If you actually drive the car I feel it's better to have one. My two cents. Maybe, just one and a half...
Great comment.
Engines are built to a need. Select the correct parts for the desired purpose.
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I'll have to show you my install tool sometime that centers the timing cover over the crank snout. If you use the balancer spacer, there's a chance that the timing cover's weight will depress the seal on one side before you get it snugged down.
I’ve got that plastic tool from an old build.
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After skimming thru all this, I'm sure Ford Motor Company didn't spend millions of dollars in research and development for nothing.
Unless anyone can produce the kind of research that Ford did > I'd use the little thingy. It's just commonsense.
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After skimming thru all this, I'm sure Ford Motor Company didn't spend millions of dollars in research and development for nothing.
Unless anyone can produce the kind of research that Ford did > I'd use the little thingy. It's just commonsense.
I think the difference there is that they did R&D for scenarios that were apropos 60 years ago, brought to you by the same R&D guys that used plastic timing gears. I don't have any experience with "modern" stuff, such as the LS, Gen 3 Hemi, Coyote, etc., but to my knowledge, none of them have oil slingers on the front. AFAIK, Ford stopped using them in the late 70's. Can anyone verify?
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After skimming thru all this, I'm sure Ford Motor Company didn't spend millions of dollars in research and development for nothing.
Unless anyone can produce the kind of research that Ford did > I'd use the little thingy. It's just commonsense.
I usually agree with one caveat...not every decision that comes out of any given industry is based entirely on research/testing, on what works best, or on what makes the most sense, etc. Bean counters, marketing and legal sometimes get involved.
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After skimming thru all this, I'm sure Ford Motor Company didn't spend millions of dollars in research and development for nothing.
Unless anyone can produce the kind of research that Ford did > I'd use the little thingy. It's just commonsense.
I usually agree with one caveat...not every decision that comes out of any given industry is based entirely on research/testing, on what works best, or on what makes the most sense, etc. Bean counters, marketing and legal sometimes get involved.
Without a doubt the powers at be want cheap efficiency. The "slinger" serves more than one purpose in this case. It's an oil barrier. I learned my lesson.
Not a fun job to remove everything on an FE mustang with AC to change a seal and install the "slinger" because you didn't want to spend an hour unloading a bench and cabinets to get to it after it rolled away. Ask this dummy...
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After skimming thru all this, I'm sure Ford Motor Company didn't spend millions of dollars in research and development for nothing.
Unless anyone can produce the kind of research that Ford did > I'd use the little thingy. It's just commonsense.
I usually agree with one caveat...not every decision that comes out of any given industry is based entirely on research/testing, on what works best, or on what makes the most sense, etc. Bean counters, marketing and legal sometimes get involved.
Without a doubt the powers at be want cheap efficiency. The "slinger" serves more than one purpose in this case. It's an oil barrier. I learned my lesson.
Not a fun job to remove everything on an FE mustang with AC to change a seal and install the "slinger" because you didn't want to spend an hour unloading a bench and cabinets to get to it after it rolled away. Ask this dummy...
I can promise you it wasn't the slinger's fault. You got the timing cover crooked on the first try and nailed it the second try.
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but the oil tins that go under the rocker assemblies do actually work pretty well. I tested this as part of the R&D done for my book, and on pages 233-234 there are pictures of the oil level in the pan while the engine is running, first with no restrictors and no tins, then with only restrictors, and then only with the tins. The tins performed the best at returning oil to the pan, based on the level in the sight gauge while the engine was running. Prior to this test I had always just thrown the tins away; now I use them whenever possible. More oil in the pan is always good...
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After skimming thru all this, I'm sure Ford Motor Company didn't spend millions of dollars in research and development for nothing.
Unless anyone can produce the kind of research that Ford did > I'd use the little thingy. It's just commonsense.
I usually agree with one caveat...not every decision that comes out of any given industry is based entirely on research/testing, on what works best, or on what makes the most sense, etc. Bean counters, marketing and legal sometimes get involved.
Without a doubt the powers at be want cheap efficiency. The "slinger" serves more than one purpose in this case. It's an oil barrier. I learned my lesson.
Not a fun job to remove everything on an FE mustang with AC to change a seal and install the "slinger" because you didn't want to spend an hour unloading a bench and cabinets to get to it after it rolled away. Ask this dummy...
I can promise you it wasn't the slinger's fault. You got the timing cover crooked on the first try and nailed it the second try.
That may be possible. I put it on BEFORE the oil pan that time. I did use the Ford tool with factory ( AMK) bolts. I also used a speed wrench to snug them. It may have moved the cover. I just know I don't want to do it until the engine has to come back out.
Thanks for the input. I just don't want to see others suffer my misfortune. ;D
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but the oil tins that go under the rocker assemblies do actually work pretty well. I tested this as part of the R&D done for my book, and on pages 233-234 there are pictures of the oil level in the pan while the engine is running, first with no restrictors and no tins, then with only restrictors, and then only with the tins. The tins performed the best at returning oil to the pan, based on the level in the sight gauge while the engine was running. Prior to this test I had always just thrown the tins away; now I use them whenever possible. More oil in the pan is always good...
I'd have to do some testing on my own to back that up because it's not what I've seen in the past.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhEuGwkYb8
That's a video, where I was unfortunately trying to find some water leak issues, but I ended up verifying that there's not the flood of oil up top that everyone thinks there is. No rocker tins in this one, just the correct oil pump and the correct restrictors. I find it hard to believe that there would be a copious amount of oil that didn't find its way to the oil pan, just from the fact that there's not that much up top.
As you've probably seen (even with your new cylinder heads), there are combinations where the use of the rocker tins is not feasible (Victor intake, T&D race rockers, etc, etc.) and the engines are no worse for wear because of it, no oil pressure issues, no starvation issues, etc. I have no issues carrying oil pressure all the way past 7000-7500 rpm and if there was an oil return issue, it would surely show up there. You could also argue that more oil in the pan could also cause some windage issues in more performance oriented builds.
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You could also argue that more oil in the pan could also cause some windage issues in more performance oriented builds.
Good grief, now you're going to insinuate that keeping oil up top is a good thing? ::) That's probably why you didn't understand the "jab".
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You could also argue that more oil in the pan could also cause some windage issues in more performance oriented builds.
Good grief, now you're going to insinuate that keeping oil up top is a good thing? ::) That's probably why you didn't understand the "jab".
Yes, in a lot of situations I’d rather have the springs oiled and oil kept away from the crank.
Everyone keeps saying how the rocker tins are so important for getting oil back to the pan, but did Jay make provisions for them on his new head design? I don't see any provision for them on any of the race head/rocker systems (such as Blue Thunder heads that use T&D paired rockers, etc.) either. Seems to me that on an engine that's going to be turning a lot of rpms for a longer period of time, you'd want the oil back in the pan.....
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FWIW, here's Edelbrock's instructions for all FE/SBF double row timing sets:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51157080531_0a5654d72a_c.jpg)
Maybe someone should tell Vic Jr that he doesn't have any common sense either.
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That's very interesting, wish they would have said why. I have never used an Edelbrock gear set, probably the low end Cloyes. Maybe the gear is thicker?
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Yes, in a lot of situations I’d rather have the springs oiled and oil kept away from the crank.
Everyone keeps saying how the rocker tins are so important for getting oil back to the pan, but did Jay make provisions for them on his new head design? I don't see any provision for them on any of the race head/rocker systems (such as Blue Thunder heads that use T&D paired rockers, etc.) either. Seems to me that on an engine that's going to be turning a lot of rpms for a longer period of time, you'd want the oil back in the pan.....
I think the assumption is that when you are building an engine that is substantially higher in performance than stock, a deeper oil pan and more oil volume in the pan is normal. In that case, the rocker tins probably wouldn't have much of an effect.
My new head design does not use the factory rocker mounting locations, so there is no way the tins could be used.
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Yes, in a lot of situations I’d rather have the springs oiled and oil kept away from the crank.
Everyone keeps saying how the rocker tins are so important for getting oil back to the pan, but did Jay make provisions for them on his new head design? I don't see any provision for them on any of the race head/rocker systems (such as Blue Thunder heads that use T&D paired rockers, etc.) either. Seems to me that on an engine that's going to be turning a lot of rpms for a longer period of time, you'd want the oil back in the pan.....
I think the assumption is that when you are building an engine that is substantially higher in performance than stock, a deeper oil pan and more oil volume in the pan is normal. In that case, the rocker tins probably wouldn't have much of an effect.
My new head design does not use the factory rocker mounting locations, so there is no way the tins could be used.
Which pump did you use in your oil level testing?
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Just a reminder that many of the intake manifolds from Ford, and the aftermarket did not make provisions at the front for good oil drain back passages on the underside of the intake manifold. I am working on a new BBM Tunnel Wedge, and there is absolutely nothing at the front for oil drain back but the thickness of an intake gasket on either side. The rear drain back area is off a bit, also, so it would not surprise me to see problems down the road with this if folks don't recognize the problem, and grind a small oil drain at the front of the intake. The metal is very thin there, so it is going to be dicey to make it safe. Oh, and I use the slingers on the engines that used them from the factory. ;D Joe-JDC
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I hope my statement didn't start a Mexican stand-off on slinger use. I used the billet double roller chain set.There was no mention to delete the slinger. I also have all the improved work for drain-back, including the shaping and direction to the hole in the front of the block that returns to the oil pan from the lifter valley.
It just made sense to me that you wouldn't want excess oil around a seal and knowing there is a lot of return from the valvetrain I presumed it wound up quite oil saturated behind the timing cover.
I am a why person too by nature. If you're deleting something from the factory I like to know why.
Again, I certainly hope I didn't stir the pot.. Too much.
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I hope my statement didn't start a Mexican stand-off on slinger use. I used the billet double roller chain set.There was no mention to delete the slinger. I also have all the improved work for drain-back, including the shaping and direction to the hole in the front of the block that returns to the oil pan from the lifter valley.
It just made sense to me that you wouldn't want excess oil around a seal and knowing there is a lot of return from the valvetrain I presumed it wound up quite oil saturated behind the timing cover.
I am a why person too by nature. If you're deleting something from the factory I like to know why.
Again, I certainly hope I didn't stir the pot.. Too much.
It's not you.
It's like this on every forum.
Go to any Ford forum you can find and search on if the oil slinger is necessary or not. It's split 50/50, on pretty much every forum, except the BBF forum, where the slingers rub the double roller chains and cause shrapnel. There'll you'll find a pretty unanimous response LOL
Every once in awhile we get into this discussion about the factory rocker tins. Guys like to poke me because they know I have a very stout stance on what I do, and that's fine. But you'll also see me tell them to do whatever they feel is comfortable.
All-in-all, it's not a personal argument and if I saw these guys in public, I'd give them a hard handshake and buy them a Mt. Dew.
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FE4SPDMustang, more of a Seas d'fhód ..... ;)
Never hammer directly on chain or sprockets.. heh :D
Ricky.
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Which pump did you use in your oil level testing?
The engine was my 428CJ dyno mule, which uses a Precision Oil Pumps high volume pump. This engine was also equipped with a stock pan, the stock windage tray, and six quarts of oil.
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Jay ... did ya put a sight glass on a pan an ran on dyno ??
Cant remember ...
Ricky.
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Yes Ricky, that's exactly what I did. Pictures are in my book if you have a copy...
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If I recall correctly, Jay also made a video of the oil level drop in the pan during a dyno pull. That was a little bit of an eye opener for me. I don't have the link to the video.
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Is it this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y28pPcml59U
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Its odd that as soon as they get off the motor the level goes down alot
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Its odd that as soon as they get off the motor the level goes down alot
That happens every time with every engine. You can watch it in the car or on the dyno, when you're on the gas hard and then lift all of a sudden.
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Oil and oil control seems to get the blood boiling at every mention HAHAHA.
FE4SPDMustang, I like your thought process on the block. In building my 445 I did the same thing to all four corners of the china wall. I made sure to "mold" a channel into it. That point is always a leak point that needs addressed. With Joe on the intake too. I did a little work on mine as I did not like what I saw and bet this gets over looked a lot!
A lot of oil ends up on top. I really wanted to open the drain back holes up, or reduce the diameter of the head bolts but did not want to chance hitting water, or make a weak bolt. I do know many have done the bolt trick with no ill effects. In a perfect world I feel addressing the drain back in this way, coupled with restricting the flow up stairs would be the best of all, but it is just my opinion. On the next one, I will use that approach. The easiest band-aid is to run more oil.
Anytime you can keep oil away from a seal or gasket is a win. No denying that on any motor. But given the effort required to fix a front seal, I would always recommend proper installation along with a new spacer Brent stated Not like you can just pop the balancer off and replace the seal. That would have been a smart move FORD! I will say this, anytime a manufacturer can save a dime, they will. So I would have to think the Purchasing Dept. and the Engineers may have went around and around about the tins and oil slingers HAHAHA.
The plastic coated gears still amaze me. I am guessing for less shock on the chain/wear/noise/over come variances? There had to a reason(s). Hard to bath something in oil that is not metal and expect it to last but then again, I don't think these old vehicles were expected to last, though they did.
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I will say this, anytime a manufacturer can save a dime, they will. So I would have to think the Purchasing Dept. and the Engineers may have went around and around about the tins and oil slingers HAHAHA.
My guess is that's what happened around 1978. The oil slingers disappeared from Ford engines. Either the seal technology got better, or crankcase ventilation/vacuum got better, or they determined that they really didn't do much. Maybe all of the above.
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Not like you can just pop the balancer off and replace the seal. That would have been a smart move FORD!
You can do that on an FE, as long as it uses the FE Power timing cover and the 351C front seal. The crank sleeve has to be modified though, to extend the sealing surface farther forward. Installing the seal from the front moves it's position forward a bit on the crank.
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Do you make a sleeve yourself for that reason Jay
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"You can do that on an FE, as long as it uses the FE Power timing cover "
That is because you thought ahead Mr. Jay B! I wondered if you were going to catch that HAHA.
You should have added a sales pitch for "low price of XXX save your frustration".....can't miss a sales plug opp!
Anyway, it is a well designed, good fit/finish product. 2 Thumbs up, I just have not bit the bullet on one.
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Is it this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y28pPcml59U
Brent, I don`t know about the video, but in Jays book, it shows a clear sight tube on the side of a steel oil pan, showing how there was more oil in the pan with the rocker drip trays. The photos are on pages 233-234 of Jays book.
As for the sudden drop of oil level once the throttle is closed on the dyno, any theory on why that happens? I could see it on a rear sump under braking, or a front sump on acceleration, as the oil runs away from the somp, but on the dyno, that situation doesn`t exist.
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Is it this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y28pPcml59U
Brent, I don`t know about the video, but in Jays book, it shows a clear sight tube on the side of a steel oil pan, showing how there was more oil in the pan with the rocker drip trays. The photos are on pages 233-234 of Jays book.
As for the sudden drop of oil level once the throttle is closed on the dyno, any theory on why that happens? I could see it on a rear sump under braking, or a front sump on acceleration, as the oil runs away from the somp, but on the dyno, that situation doesn`t exist.
I don't really have a theory about why it happens. It's odd though because I see it on every engine I dyno. It's at full song, then when the throttle is shut and the engine comes back to idle, the oil pressure will drop 10-15 psi below what it normally was at idle, then pick right back up. It's not an oil level issue, because even on that video, you can see that the pickup would have been well covered.
Maybe it's a bypass issue? The pump has the bypass open at the top of the pull, then when you shut the throttle down, it's closing the bypass and something is happening there? Maybe we can get Bill Conley to try and recreate the issue on his pump dyno.
I don't have Jay's book, but I did tell him I'd take one on his next shipment.
The reason I've never duplicated his showings is because I don't use HV pumps with factory pans. They either get SV pumps or B pumps. The B pumps work extremely well in most engines (and consume less hp, as verified by Bill Conley's pump dyno). I had one in my 352 with a stock pan, pulling to 7000 rpm, and it carried the oil pressure all the way through the top of the pull, which indicated the pickup was not being uncovered.
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It certainly would be interesting to find out what causes the drop in oil pressure. On my drag car, I have never noticed this, and being a stick, I typically put the trans in neutral as soon as I cross the finish line, and lift off the throttle, so the engine is going from WOT at over 6000 RPM, and then right back to idle, and unless I get hard on the brakes,(rear sump oil pan), the oil pressure never seems to drop. I have not really ever had any bearing issues, but seeing that video makes me think it would be a good idea to install the Moroso Accusump oil accumulator that I have had sitting on the shelf for several years.
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It certainly would be interesting to find out what causes the drop in oil pressure. On my drag car, I have never noticed this, and being a stick, I typically put the trans in neutral as soon as I cross the finish line, and lift off the throttle, so the engine is going from WOT at over 6000 RPM, and then right back to idle, and unless I get hard on the brakes,(rear sump oil pan), the oil pressure never seems to drop. I have not really ever had any bearing issues, but seeing that video makes me think it would be a good idea to install the Moroso Accusump oil accumulator that I have had sitting on the shelf for several years.
An accumulator certainly couldn't hurt.
I will say that the oil pressure change happens pretty quickly and recovers quickly. I dyno'd the 352 again yesterday and watched for this as we had just talked about it. It recovers within about a second.