FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: cheeser on April 30, 2021, 09:01:50 PM
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I’m thinking of having the 390 in my 68 Cougar rebuilt in a few years with a stroker kit and Trick Flow heads, but keeping the 428CJ exhaust manifolds (installed by original owner) for appearance and clearance.
I’m curious what type of a power hit I would see using the CJ exhaust vs installing headers.
I understand the need for headers to make max power, but headers in these cars seems to be a pain. I live in Denver and already see a performance hit due to altitude, but my goal would be around 425hp, but more wouldn’t hurt.
Just exploring options for now, before getting serious in a few years.
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On the 390 stroker engine chronicled in my book, the different headers I tested ran from 485HP to 500HP. The same engine with the 428CJ manifolds was just shy of 460 HP. So I think you could probably figure on a 30-40 HP loss if you stuck with the CJ manifolds.
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Sounds like a cool project.
You may want to contact Brent Lykins here regarding a custom camshaft for that particular application.
I am sure he has a few ideas regarding camshaft duration split when using CJ exhaust manifolds.
My initial thoughts would be more of a duration split as well as opening the exhaust valve a little earlier.
Perhaps Brent will chime in.
Cheers
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Recently dyne's one similar. I can verify that +/-30-40 HP loss with the manifolds. We have done several strokers with manifolds for folks looking for the power and torque gains while retaining that concourse cosmetic appearance.
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One way of looking at it is: To gain 30-40 hp out of a 390, a guy can add 55 cubic inches OR add nice set of headers.
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I removed the Hooker Super Comps from my Fairlane and put CJ manifolds on it. Yes, I know the manifolds will be down on power. But I'm not class racing the car, so the simplicity of the manifolds overrode the power difference. It still will flywheel the tires, so it appears I'm making enough power to get some tickets.
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So I haven’t heard anyone saying I’m nuts so far :-). With the stroker kits and nice heads out there now, I assumed decent power could be obtained, while keeping an outwardly stockish appearance.
My last adventure with an FE engine was in High School in the 80. I had a 64 Galaxy with 4 spd and blown 390. I found a wrecked 62 Galaxie with a freshened 406 tripower. My auto shop teacher let me transplant the 406 into my 64...had a lot of fun, but it rusted out being WI and I left to join the military. I sold the motor about 15 years ago as I thought I’d never have another FE, but here I am again. I had a blown Coyote in my 13 Mustang w 609 hp for a few years...extremely fun and smooth, but sold it for the Cougar.
The existing 390 runs decent now, but it has the stock 2 barrel. Until I can convince the spouse on this, I was going to put a Blue Thunder 427MR intake on and 4 barrel in the interim...later this summer once I work the rest of the Cougar gremlins out.
I have been watching Barry and Lykins, and this forum just to see what is out there. I am not aware of any knowledgeable FE builders in the Denver area, thus another reason for me to stalk this forum.
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Is there any practical, economical, and worthwhile porting process that can be applied to factory iron exhaust manifolds? Sand blasting? Acid porting? I understand Extrude Honing is very expensive for very small gains.
paul
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There are a number of 'shorty' tube headers that are being produced for the FE now. Since you're not in a big hurry, it may be worth some time researching to find out if any of them fit the Mustang/Cougar engine bay. I'd imagine that a shorty would cut that HP loss in half and still be easy to install without most of the interference issues associated with long tube headers.
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Doesn’t Sanderson make shorty headers for the FE that will fit the Mustang and Cougar? The build from the OP sounds a lot like what I’m doing with mine but it’s going in my ‘67 S Code Mustang coupe.
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There are a number of 'shorty' tube headers that are being produced for the FE now. Since you're not in a big hurry, it may be worth some time researching to find out if any of them fit the Mustang/Cougar engine bay. I'd imagine that a shorty would cut that HP loss in half and still be easy to install without most of the interference issues associated with long tube headers.
I actually thought about “shorty” headers over the winter, but didn’t find anything for my application in a Cougar.
I considered custom, but assumed prices escalate fairly fast. I don’t mind somewhat of a premium if they were available though.
I currently have a very slight exhaust leak at the manifold as it appears the shop used a gasket when it was rebuilt back in 2008, and the CJ manifolds were installed. I’m probably going to have to address that at some point...not looking forward to it as I don’t have a lift.
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Just a quick word on the Sanderson shorties.
I have a set that came on my wagon. By far the biggest piles I’ve ever had. I have had them off my wagon at least five times to weld them up. I’ve reflattened the flange twice and welded up many cracks. It’s like they used sub par metal that crystallized when they welded them originally.
There is one leak in the middle of the collector I can’t get a torch on. Tick tick tick when I lay on it.
They are horrible.
Why haven’t I replaced them yet? Waiting for new heads and just trying to get by.
Your experience my vary but beware. I don’t like being negative but these deserve it.
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FPA tri-y perhaps?
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Just a quick word on the Sanderson shorties.
I have a set that came on my wagon. By far the biggest piles I’ve ever had. I have had them off my wagon at least five times to weld them up. I’ve reflattened the flange twice and welded up many cracks. It’s like they used sub par metal that crystallized when they welded them originally.
There is one leak in the middle of the collector I can’t get a torch on. Tick tick tick when I lay on it.
They are horrible.
Why haven’t I replaced them yet? Waiting for new heads and just trying to get by.
Your experience my vary but beware. I don’t like being negative but these deserve it.
If your headers are stainless and your putting a torch to them they will crack.
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Not stainless
By “torch” I meant a mig or tig gun/torch.
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Where have you guys been hiding? The "Stock Appearing" racers as in F.A.S.T. have been running VERY well stock intake and exhaust manifolds with 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems as required
for years! They port them out to the max with grinding and extrude honing process.
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FE exhaust manifolds do not respond well to the Extrude Hone process. I've seen 428CJ exhaust manifolds tested before and after Extrude hone, and the engine picked up a whopping 5 HP. The FAST guys make power with cubic inches and head and intake modifications. The exhaust manifolds, on the FE anyway, are still a bottleneck.
My former trunk monkey Joel has a 700 HP FAST hemi that uses the stock exhaust manifolds, but the hemi exhaust manifolds are really free flowing, much better than any FE exhaust manifold.
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IIRC Kugel was making new iron exhaust manifolds copied off the old Galaxie deals.
Wonder how those do?
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Galaxy manifolds won't fit shock tower cars
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Oh yeah, Cougar
Duh
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OP, R J Sledge has a set of REF Tri-Y headers for sale on the Class Racer Forum.
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IIRC Kugel was making new iron exhaust manifolds copied off the old Galaxie deals.
Wonder how those do?
They are supposed to be exact copies of the shorty cast iron headers, except they took off the choke heat protrusion. The results of those manifolds are in this great book - The Great FE Intake Comparo!
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Never heard of it ;D
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Where have you guys been hiding? The "Stock Appearing" racers as in F.A.S.T. have been running VERY well stock intake and exhaust manifolds with 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems as required
for years! They port them out to the max with grinding and extrude honing process.
I don't mean to freak out the concours guys, but maybe cut those 428 CJ exhaust manifolds in half and port them properly with a grinder? Then weld them back together?
paulie
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Where have you guys been hiding? The "Stock Appearing" racers as in F.A.S.T. have been running VERY well stock intake and exhaust manifolds with 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems as required
for years! They port them out to the max with grinding and extrude honing process.
I don't mean to freak out the concours guys, but maybe cut those 428 CJ exhaust manifolds in half and port them properly with a grinder? Then weld them back together?
paulie
The standard 67 exhaust "logs" are horrible. I was considering using the 68' CJ units and I was told that the port at the head couldn't be increased to get flow numbers enough to justify funds that would be expended on extrude hone or any other current process. I wound up with Hookers. I weigh 211 pounds and the car is slightly lower than stock because of the Arning drop I partially smashed the tubes. I was thinking about the JBA Tri-Y headers. Something will have to be done eventually.
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OP, R J Sledge has a set of REF Tri-Y headers for sale on the Class Racer Forum.
Not legal in FAST ,
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Ok, it appears I can make decent power with a stroked motor and good heads, with slight hit do to the CJ heads. I believe my CJ manifolds are reproductions and thought about extrude honing as well...noticed there seemed to be minimal benefits, especially for the cost.
This combo of a stroker with nice heads and 428 CJ exhausts would be interesting to see on a dyno.
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40-60HP is significant. 12% based on 500HP is quite a bit. I know the Tri-Y design lost some power over longtube as well. Tower cars are always problematic.
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40-60HP is significant. 12% based on 500HP is quite a bit. I know the Tri-Y design lost some power over longtube as well. Tower cars are always problematic.
I can’t disagree, but may be a choice some can live with to eliminate other impacts.
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I spent the day today on the dyno with my little Y Block Ford. It is a 346 cubic inch, iron head, 9.4:1 compression, and 228* @ .050" camshaft with .510" lift. It made several pulls with 405 tq/402 hp on pump gas with 38* total timing. 750 Summit VS carb, and FPA '55 Thunderbird headers. I had a set of '56 Ford exhaust manifolds, and Thunderbird exhaust manifolds that I ported and polished the interior, rounded the passages, opened up the flanges, etc., with 2' of 2" exhaust tubing bolted up to the flanges. Lost 35tq, and 35 hp straight across four dyno pulls. It was a simple test to verify the differences between the ported manifolds and a good pair of FPA headers. I made 565tq/595hp with the same set of headers on my 375Y that I built for EMC in 2018. Joe-JDC
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Just downloaded a couple of pictures from today on the dyno. Joe-JDC
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Back to the original post.
Stroker 390 (445) with Trick Flow heads.
500hp would be a breeze with 445 cubes and TFS heads.
One could also use a custom camshaft that would favor the exhaust - to lessen losses with cast 428CJ manifolds.
All in all 450hp should be easily attainable.
Would headers make more power? Of course.
Can OP make 450 Hp with 445 cubes, TFS heads and cast CJ exhaust manifolds? YES.