FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on April 16, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
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This would be for my '67 Mustang; I'm planning on taking the 428CJ dyno mule and putting it in this car as a test bed for various FE products, including the intake adapter, CVR water pump adapters, clear valve covers, etc. The car is currently fitted with a small block and four speed, and has the deluxe interior with brushed aluminum door panels and console. I'm looking at the Tremec because of the overdrive, but I want to make sure that the shifter can be adjusted to fit through the factory floor opening so it is positioned correctly with respect to the hole in the console. The Tremec literature says that the shifter location is adjustable, but it is not clear to me how adjustable it is. Anyone know if the shifter on one of these transmissions can be moved to fit through the 67-68 Mustang floor opening?
My alternative is a toploader with a Hurst Competition Plus shifter and a Gear Vendors overdrive. I'm comfortable with that option, but I'd kind of like to try a Tremec, since I've never had one before...
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Assuming a standard depth FE car bell, FE input, and the shifter as-delivered, the shifter will rub the LH side of the hole and be right at the forward edge, in addition, the tranny will require a minor C cut in the floor cross member to get it up to allow proper angle and a little shaping right under the radio, unless you wanted to lower the engine.
The shifter position isn't really adjustable, you can bolt the shifter on one side or the other of the nub for about 3/4 of an inch difference, or you can flip it around 180, but it wont help you. A McLeod shifter for a 69 Camaro will offset the shifter to the right and slightly back, which should be perfect for a console.
You can see what I mean below, the stock shifter should flip around, but that makes it worse for a Mustang. The other plates theoretically allow different mid and front mount shifters, but I have never actually seen one
(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/Oldandnew.jpg) (http://s528.photobucket.com/user/My427stang/media/Oldandnew.jpg.html)
One nice thing though, a stock Hurst bolt on handle is a perfect match for the TKO nub, so when you get close with the McLeod shifter, you can put it almost anywhere with a standard Hurst handle
I will tell you though, it takes a little getting used to. A TKO shifts great except for 2-3, and that is because it isn't clearly gated and generally people try to go from second to almost in between 3/5. Aftermarket shifters are gated and spring loaded to push you into third, but not sure about the McLeod. I got used to mine and I don't ever miss third.
In addition, people claim the synchros are too slippery. I am not sure if that's true, but I filled it with ATF+4 that Mopars use because I had a gallon laying around. It worked so well I am afraid to drain it and try something else LOL
One last thing, although it uses the correct Ford design speedo cable, you need to run the longer AT cable and AT driven gear. Other than that, easy swap.
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Thanks for that great info, Ross. Leaning back a little towards the toploader now...
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Honestly, if you plan on racing it, I think the Toploader will be easier to shift and of course an absolute bolt-in with a Comp Plus shifter.
The TKO is super nice for a streeter though
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They make shifters for it you can have them made 2 inches in either direction. I got 1 inche left or I couldnt use my console.
I should have gotten 2 inches left and 2 inches back. I think its a division of Mcleod. I have a 12" clutch for the TKO if you need it. I have pictures if you wanna see how it sits in the shifter hole. I would modify the trans tunnel mines right against it. I had to lay the motor back a bit.
I found it here ya go!
http://www.mcleodracing.com/products/Slik+Stik.+TKO+500+%26+600.mcl#
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Thanks Harry, that shifter may just address my concerns about the TKO. If you can come up with that picture showing where it comes through the opening I'd appreciate it. Modifying the tunnel is no problem for me. I'll keep your 12" clutch in mind - Jay
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ask and you shall recieve
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/P4210080.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/P4210080.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/P4210079.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/P4210079.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/P4210076.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/P4210076.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/P4210077.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/P4210077.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/P4110069.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/P4110069.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/P4110070.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/P4110070.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee183/sixty9cobra/IMG_0224.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/sixty9cobra/media/IMG_0224.jpg.html)
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Why not do a magnum? It takes 700 ft lbs and has one more speed. I found a guy that makes bell housings and best of all the trans comes with all the upgrades already done that the TKO requires. All at the same relative price before the upgrades and only 40 lbs heavier. It is rated for 900 hp so pretty much bullet proof to a thousand.
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I could do that, but I don't see this car getting more than 500-550 HP at any point, so it might be overkill...
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If you're thinking about drag racing with a TKO, it would probably be worth a call to a trans house like Liberty to discuss some of the upgrade mods to get it to shift perfectly at high rpm. The 2-3 shift in my experience <6000rpm isn't as bad as people complain, at least on my setup. You do have to "unlearn" that shift though...use an open palm and push straight forward 2-3 and you'll never miss it. Try to push it diagonally into 3 and you'll hit between 3 and 5. On mine, I've never been able to go 2 to 5 easily as some folks also claim happens...it always needs to go to 4 first. Indexing the bellhousing is critical or the clutch will act fussy. I'd also suggest a shifter with adjustable stops on the throws to keep you from slamming the rails too bad inside.
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I have a T56 Magnum in a 67 Mustang and am super happy with it.
Shifts easy in all gears and the shifter is positioned exactly where I want it to be.
It has an ofset shifter. I bought a complete kit through American Powertrain so the shifter might be a part of their Mustang kit. The kit came with a McLeod bell too.
I did some research before I decided on the Magnum and it seemed that the TKO is bulkier, more square in cross section. Because of that it will need more work to fit in the Mustang tunnel. At least that was my understanding.
I drove it quite alot last summer with a stock 390 in front of it. Really smooth. I love the extra gears on the freeway.
My new engine was finished last week so it should be a fun summer ;D
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I intend to install t566 in my 66 Comet.....Jon
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I have a TKO in my 68 coupe behind a 433ci fe.
The shifter sits dead center on the top of the trans but ends up about 1" too far forward,had to cut a notch in the shifter hole. I have no console so I cant comment there.
I have installed 2 TKO's,one in a Comet the other in my current 68. They dont fit...........without modes.
On my Comet I tried to beat it in,ended up basicly cutting the top of the tunnel out and adding about 2"strips along the cut line.
In my Mustang I wasted no time ,just shoved it into (near) place chalk lined around it and cut the top of the trans tunnel out. Rasied it about an inch and it fits fine. I cut from about an inch infront of the trans to bellhousing face,1" off the sides of the trans ,back to about an inch infront of the raer shifter mount. Metal work it a bit then fit some sheet metal to fill the gap on the sides and back. I also made my own trans mount but as said the stocker will work but needs about a 1/2" spacer to raise the trans tail. My set up has the stock 4 1/2-5* engine angle.
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Jay I just realized my bad advice, but I am sure you were steered right from the pics.
The shifter crowds the RH side, not the left as I posted above. Apparently 3000+ hrs in the aircraft softened the cranium a bit :)
Which of course makes sense, because the TKO shifter is centered and a Toploader shifter is offset to the drivers side.
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I'm very happy with the Tremec in my 550 hp at the wheels '89. At I first had shifting concerns, then I was told the stock clutch fork was too short for the McLeod bell housing. Put in the extended fork and voila. Then even better was the Steeda brand shifter. Just like the other guy said; open your hand and simply push forward - it's gates are aimed for 3rd gear. My TKO is unmodified and shifts no problem at 6500+. I've been beating on it, running slicks or drag radials since 2003, 10 seconds of fun. My wife made over 50 passes at the track where nerves can get you, and never missed a gear. Long story short - well sorted clutch system should yield a happy driver.
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My first post-This looks like a great forum.
"My alternative is a toploader with a Hurst Competition Plus shifter and a Gear Vendors overdrive. I'm comfortable with that option, but I'd kind of like to try a Tremec, since I've never had one before..."
Can you explain the overdrive in a 4 speed toploader? I have a toploader and would love to have an overdrive or 5th gear for freeway cruising. Is it a big deal? My trans was rebuilt about 3-4 years ago. 3.73 rear gives me around 3500rpms at 70mph.
Thanks,
John
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Welcome aboard, John! I think the major drawback to a Gear Vendors overdrive is the cost; it is fairly expensive at around $2600. You get a replacement tailshaft housing for the transmission, and the overdrive unit bolts onto that. The overdrive is supposed to be good for 1800 HP or something, so you won't break it. It comes with an electronic control module, a dash switch, and a foot switch like a Ford dimmer switch. The dash switch lets you select automatic or manual operation. There is also a speed sensor that goes between the end of the stock speedo cable and the cable that goes into the overdrive unit. When in automatic mode the electronic module monitors the speed and switches the overdrive in and out automatically. In manual mode this control is bypassed, and you turn the overdrive on and off with the foot switch. Also, the overdrive cuts out whether in manual or automatic mode when the vehicle's speed drops down to 5 MPH or so. So, if you are in overdrive and slow down for a stop, the overdrive will kick out automatically.
You will have to do a couple of other normal hot rodding things, like maybe modify the transmission crossmember (I had to slot a couple of mine to get the stock mounts to fit), run the wiring, etc. You will also need to shorten the driveshaft and install the Gear Vendors yoke on your driveshaft, but any driveshaft shop can do that for you if you take the measurements. For some cars, you may need to cut or clearance the floorpan to get the overdrive to fit. Strangely, it fit really nice in the tunnel of my 69 Mach 1, but I had to cut the floor a little to make it fit my 64 Galaxie.
I have three Gear Vendors overdrives, and I really like them. For this particular Mustang I'm really waffling on which way to go, the TKO or the GVOD. I think it would be more expensive, but easier, to go the Gear Vendors route again...
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I think it would be more expensive, but easier, to go the Gear Vendors route again...
Jay, although I haven't done a GV, I can't think it would be easier. The TKO may not shift like a Toploader, but the TKO is a no brainer. Just to put it in checklist form to make a point
- Stab the tranny, jack it up and make a chalk line on the cross brace and note where the front will hit under the radio
- Cut out the c-notch you just marked up with a cutoff wheel or plasma cutter
- Put a jack under the floor under the radio and move it, in one area where the vent is, maybe .250, or just beat with a hammer. its not the whole floor, you just make room for the vent
- Install the new shifter on the box (no rails no rods, no adjustment, just 6 bolts and align the nub in the hole
- Install tranny & crossmember and space the mount to get driveline angle to stock or desired
- If the speedo cable isn't long enough, replace with AT cable
Stock length driveshaft, stock small input clutch fork and bell design, just needs a 26 spline input.
Its really a 1/2 to 3/4 day project to swap from one to the other. Matter of fact, I did Charlie Logsdon's 57 Fairlane on a Sat morning in his garage without all my tools.
I think the ONLY issue you will have is that if it becomes a racer, you may want to spend more money inside the TKO to be able to shift it clutchless, but that just makes the parts more expensive, not more difficult
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I guess I was thinking of the floor mods, Ross. There won't be any with the GVOD and toploader, but I'll have to pull the carpet up and out of the way with the Tremec, and cut the holes. I'm not going to leave open holes in the floor, so after installing the trans I'll have to fabricate some sheet metal shields and weld them in place over the holes. Its not a big deal, but I'm trying to keep this particular car as "bolt-on" as possible. The rest of the mods (driveshaft, clutch, etc.) I have to do in either case...
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There are no holes in the floor, just a notch in the channel that supports the floor, you never breach the interior. Admittedly, some guys don't want to cut a brace for originality, but its very minor
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OK, thanks for the clarification, I didn't get that part. If its only notching the original U-shaped brace that is spot welded to the floor, and not going into the interior, then its not a big deal. Leaning back towards the Tremec again LOL!...
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JayB- Thanks for clarifying. I am learning new things all the time. I have more questions but will not hijack your thread and will post them in a different thread later. I'm still recovering from my last project and am not ready to start another right now..
John
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2200 or 2300 for the trans 100 for the shift handle, I had to get a new clutch, different speedo gear, different cross member. I could have bought a GV for the same price. But my topleader was tired so I went the TKO route.
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Thanks for the info Harry. My toploader needs to be gone through, so that would make the toploader/GVOD option more expensive for me than the Tremec.
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Gear vendor weighs a ton added to the boat anchor top loader, you basically have a mid mount big block in there. Weight is HP no matter how you add it up, I am sold on the T56 for these reasons or you could go with a 7 speed salvage trans from a Corvette.......Jon
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The Gear Vendors unit weighs 45 pounds, and the tailshaft housing is about 5 pounds heavier than the stock toploader tailshaft housing. So a 50 pound adder using the GVOD.
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What rear gear does the Mustang have? If it's high like a 3.00 or 3.25 you might consider a Richmond (non-overdrive) 5 speed. Just a thought.
paulie
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You know, I have a Richmond sitting on the shelf here, but I'm planning it for a different car. I have a 9 inch to bolt into the Mustang I'm thinking about the Tremec for, and it has a 4.11 locker with factory 31 spline axles, so the Tremec or GVOD are attractive from that standpoint.
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IIRC Jay the Richmond 5-speed you have is the same one I have (in a SBF though) as we had chatted some years ago now about how the speedo bullet and helical speedo gear was actually from GM's M-21/M-22 tranny. Anyway......
Any thought to the relatively new Richmond 5-speed with overdrive? It's the last one in the link below:
http://richmondgear.com/01fivespeed.html
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Thanks for that link, Bob, I wasn't aware of that transmission. And yes, I recall our conversation and I think we do have the same transmission, although now that I think of it, mine is actually a Doug Nash 5 speed, before Richmond got involved. My problem with that trans for this particular project is I need to have the shifter come through the floor in the stock location and fit the stock console, and on my other '68 Mustang I had to cut the floor up pretty good to get the Long shifter to fit. Hence my choice between a toploader with Hurst Competition Plus shifter or the Tremec.
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I have heard of 8 speed manuals being in the near future for the big three, that would be interesting.......Jon
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Hey Ross
Whats all that hardware behind the trannys?
Almost looks like a sway bar tied down by a couple of tractor weights.
Get that shoulder back in battery!!!!
Larry
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Jay when i did my tremec in my 69 mach i used a standard scatter shield , the 7/8 inch spacer and a cross member from D @ D and 67-69 gt 390 clutch fork and a Mcleod clutch . It bolted right in place , no cutting , grinding and right in the center of the factory floor opening . I used a hurst compition plus shiter handle for a 68 camaro , shortened 2 inchs re-drill d the holes , it clears the dash very nicely ..
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Cool, thanks for the info. Could you elaborate on the 7/8" spacer? Where did you put that?
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The spacer goes between the tranny and the bell housing. That option would have been better than getting the shorter input in my case. TKO's come with 2 different length input shafts.
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I put a Tremec TKO in my 69 mach , i used a standard scatter shield wth the 7/ 8 inch spacer , cross member from D @ D , Mcleod clutch set up . the shiter mount is in the center of the factory tunnel cut out . I purchased a hurst competition plus handle for a 68 camaro , the g m stuff bolts on where as the ford shifter is welded . I shorten d the handle 2 inchs and re-drilled the holes . It clears the dash and im using my factory console .. oh and a 67-69 G T 390 clutch fork .
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Thanks for the help, guys. Does Tremec sell the spacer?
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Jay, there are two versions of input shaft
The long T-5 length input shaft like mentioned above uses a spacer, the short input shaft is FE length and just bolts to a standard FE bell
I use the short Ford shaft with no spacer. You should be able to as well with the shifter that we mentioned.
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Thanks Ross. It kind of sounds like I could get away without cutting the floor, and maybe without a special shifter, if I used the long input shaft version and the 7/8" spacer. Or not?
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Maybe, I haven't done it, but then it would use a non-stock length driveshaft. In my case I had the shaft and adding cost with both a spacer and a shaft cut didn't meet what I was trying to do.
I would guess that with the spacer you'd be close front to back, and if you bolted the shifter to the drivers side of the "nub" it'd be very close to stock location, but thats all a WAG
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Funny the aluminum driveshaft I bought seems 1 inch too short. The 7/8 spacer would have put the shifter in the right spot 1 inch further back and make the drive shaft perfect.
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I am not sure why yours would be different, but here are some pics of mine. You can see that the overall length and input shaft length are identical to the RUG-AE2 big in/out I took out of mine
(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/Oldandnew-1_zpsb160a875.jpg) (http://s528.photobucket.com/user/My427stang/media/Oldandnew-1_zpsb160a875.jpg.html)
(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/Inputs_zpsdcb196b2.jpg) (http://s528.photobucket.com/user/My427stang/media/Inputs_zpsdcb196b2.jpg.html)
I do think that the shifter, even if set back properly with the long input and a spacer will be too close to the middle and still need some sort of offset shifter
(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/Oldandnew2_zps499c5fdd.jpg) (http://s528.photobucket.com/user/My427stang/media/Oldandnew2_zps499c5fdd.jpg.html)
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yes i think even summit has spacer as well .
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hey Jay mustangs unlimited . com , a 65-73 mustang parts house if you order a catalog or go on line page 162 has all the tranny swap parts .
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Late to the TKO600 party, but the Ford version is usually either 0.64 or 0.82 5th gear, WITH long input shaft.
Generally a $200 charge for the shorter input shaft...
Generally a $150 charge for the spacer...
Put the saved $200 toward a new QuickTime 6057 that is available in a deep depth.
RM-6057 7.050 FE deep (60's truck bell)
RM-6056 6.425 FE short (60's car bell)
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Difference 0.625 or 5/8"
As the FE w/short bell + TKO-600 puts the shifter about 3/4" of an inch forward of the Mustang position, the 5/8" deeper (truck) bell puts it about where its needed WITHOUT the expense and confusion/flex of a spacer.
Many driveshafts have enough spline movement to handle the 5/8" change, but should be verified.
Had issues with the shifter and you may too. The stub attachment point was too high, ended up in the boot, didn't allow the bend to start low enough, was generally IN THE WAY. Had a box of a "no stub" design made with hole for the stock style shifter shaft. This is a game changer for the shifter and will solve your issues with a little fabrication. Hurst could likely be welded right or left, right, forward, aft, sideways to get your shifter on the correct path down below the boot. Or make it a real sleeper with a stock shifter handle & knob!! If you get a TKO, I'll send you a "no stub" for grins.
If you use the 0.64 OD make sure and calculate out the speed vs. cam in 4th & 5th as its a long shift.
Roger
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Good advice, I forgot about the QT bell, it certainly is a nice piece and handy as it comes in the deep version.
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Which TKO 600 aftermarket transmission mount maintains the correct driveshaft angle and fits a Mustang application direct out of the box? It has been posted on other forums that the Dark Horse trans mount positions the transmission too low and brings the fan too close to the radiator.
McLeod steel flywheels are 28 pounds and 35 pounds. Which one would be best for a 3500 pound, TKO-600 equipped street driven Mustang?
This is a great thread. Hope all the details and requirements can be detailed so this can be hassle free conversion. I really want a TKO for my “S” code 1968 Fastback, but do not want to cut the car up too bad or purchase two or three shifter plates to discover the shifter that properly fits the factory hole in the tunnel.
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I use a McLeod aluminum flywheel on my FE/TKO setup, with 4.00:1 gears and 275/60-15 drag radials. I love the aluminum wheel, no driveability issues and revs very quickly.
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I purchased my tranny , cross member , spacer and clutch set up from D @ D performance and it bolted right up , no cutting or grinding . And Don Walsh senior used to work at FORD , power train engineer .. All this went into my 69 Mach 1 , so im sure it will work tor you just give them a call and ask for Don sr , I have no clearance issues any where .. Bud