Author Topic: Holley carb woes  (Read 5171 times)

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Royce

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Holley carb woes
« on: April 27, 2018, 02:16:04 PM »
I am hoping to tap into some Holley expertise.. I have an old Holley list 1619. 4150 style.. Original application 58 Edsel.. I rebuilt it once.. A friend who is more familiar with Holleys did it again and for a 3rd time I sent it off to a "professional " rebuilder..   The same problem persists.. It is so pig rich at idle that it will barely run. Idle screws have no effect. float levels are OK. All gasket surfaces are true..Power valve is not the problem.  I am wondering if I have some mismatched parts..

Front metering block is 2083  rear is 1834.  I was wondering if someone had a reference source to confirm these are correct for this carb
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

FB

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 06:08:40 PM »
wrong gasket,....... metering block to throttle body?
i'm reaching.....
Fred

babybolt

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2018, 07:49:39 AM »
Those are the correct blocks for that carb - a Edsel 410.

My427stang

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2018, 08:22:17 AM »
I would first look and see if the primaries are too far open, getting you into the transition circuit. If they are, open the secondary idle and close the primary so you just see the start of the transition slot from the bottom, when it closed throttle, choke off.

If that is good, then I would likely go inside and see if the throttle body surface where it meets the metering block is warped.  Best is to machine it flat, but you can be careful with a file as well.  It's harder to cut a lot off than you'd think, so machining is better, but you can get there.

After that I would look very close at the gaskets they used, and make sure they are correct for the early style. Also, put carb clean through all 4 idle air bleeds with the carb apart and make sure they are clear.

If it is still rich after that, I would suspect a bad metering block, but usually it's one of those things
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
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machoneman

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2018, 09:59:02 AM »
To add to what My427Stang posted, note in this link a drawing (down a few posts) of the 'square' look of the secondary transfer slot. Be sure before doing much more that the secondary is set this way. Then try to set your air/ilde screws once again.

You may also want to purchase a replacement primary block as sometimes no amount of fooling around will fix a misbehaving carb. I'd do so after filing/machining down the old block first as noted previously to see if that trick works.

http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic131647.aspx
Bob Maag

Royce

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2018, 04:38:54 PM »
Well after some inspection and switching of parts my ancient Holley is running like it should. (Almost)

Following some suggestions from here and elsewhere. I put a gauge on the fuel pump and rigged gravity fuel to the carb..  Pump makes about 4.75 lb of pressure, and gravity feeding the carb did not help it at all. I removed the carb, disassembled it and started looking things over  . The primary metering block to carb body gasket was very wet. Secondary side looked normal.  I took the power valve out of the metering block and found out the threads are mangled  . In addition the wrong gasket was used for the power valve.. I was going to chase the threads in the metering block but I find they are a very odd 1/2 x 28..  I have an old Holley 2bbl on the shelf of the same vintage that was rebuilt and never run.. I figured why not install that metering block and see what happens.. Before assembly I checked the throttle plate position in the bores.. Secondaries had the transfer slot completely covered. Primary had way too much slot showing. I set them by eyeball and put it all back together.  I set the idle screws at 1.5 turns and fired it up. Engine started easily and settle to a good high idle.. After it warmed I kicked it down to about 800 rpm idle and hooked up a vacuum gauge to set the idle screws. As I was hooking up the gauge the engine started into a slow surging up and down. I remember form reading the Ford manual on setting up a 6v that this is a rich rolling idle  (Ford's term) I had around 15 inches of vacuum but it would fluctuate as the idle goes up and down  I started turning in the screws 1/4 turn at a time and vacuum started to increase. I ended up with the screws bottomed out and it is still a tad rich, but idles nicely at 600 rpm.. So it looks like the primary metering block is the problem, either the power valve does not seal or the metering block is warped.. The carb body has been planed flat so that is not an issue. I am guessing that smaller idle air bleeds in the 2bbl metering block are causing the rich idle, but the car can be driven without issue till I find a correct metering block.. Thanks for all the suggestions and advice.
RB
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2018, 10:19:15 PM »
Random thoughts:

-Power valve is 1/2-28
Taps are available but they are expensive, and well, if the threads are rough, a tap might not make it better.  You can block off the PV without installing a power valve ya know :P  Just block the signal hole.

-Stock Idle on that engine with that car was most likely 450-475rpm, these are not meant to idle at 800.  I'll be home this weekend, I've got a Data sheet on that carb, also have a list 1619 on the shelf if you need me to measure anything.
I can also take a generic metering block and replicate the 1619 calibration on it, no biggie really, so could you, or anyone actually.

-You say smaller idle air bleeds in the 2v metering block, but metering blocks do not have idle air bleeds, those are in the main body.  If you mean Idle feed restriction, that varies by calibration, but being 2v or 4v shouldn't matter.  Emulsion setups for carbs prior to 1960 fluctuate wildly, really calibrations didn't get somewhat standardized until the early 60's.

-I like to pin gauge the hole for the idle mixture screws on older metering blocks.  You'd be amazed at how off they can be.

-Older metering blocks I remove the emulsion tubes and replace them, same with the IFR if it is in the idle well.  Trash there can make tuning impossible.  Either snag the ifr with a drill bit and remove it, replace with a new brass restriction that is drilled to size, or relocate the ifr.

-I closely examined the photos from the one builder, I do not see High Speed air bleeds in the primary.  Are they present?  they should be there and around .028-.031 in size.  In the picture I zoomed in on I only see the hole for the restriction but not the restriction itself.....  if someone was blowing the carb out with high pressure air, they can easily blow out the old restriction, especially if it's clogged with trash.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 10:21:54 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

427Fastback

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2018, 10:59:04 PM »
First thing I would do to restore the use of the mixture screws and lean out the idle would be to drill (2) .125 holes in the primary butterflys.

If your dist has vacuum advance and its hooked up to ported vacuum the diaghram could be fluctuating at that rpm and that good of a signal.
JMO...
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

Nightmist66

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 11:31:11 PM »
Taps needed for fine thread fasteners used in carburetors are readily available and affordable if you search for them. Here is the one you need for the power valve:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-28-1-2-x28-High-Quality-Plug-Tap-Gunsmithing-Others-Brand-New/163005264508?hash=item25f3def27c:g:eSIAAOSwKiZa1wjo
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2018, 07:26:09 AM »
Jared,
I bought several taps for Holley's that were supposed to be right and threw them in the trash.  If the taper isn't correct, you'll run into trouble.

Drilling the throttle plates assumes that his issue is the primary being open overly much.  If this isn't the case you'll end up with an engine idling at 1200 with the throttle totally closed, no transfer slot exposure at idle, and a huge stumble off idle.

Royce

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2018, 08:55:17 AM »
Thanks again for the insight Drew  The metering block I installed is a 1737.. I ordered a 1/2 x 28 bottoming tap.. At this point the metering block is ruined, if the tap restores the threads great if not no loss.  I bought a parts 1619 carb off of Ebay so I should have an extra metering block. One clue to me that even with the idle screws bottomed it is rich, is when I introduce a vacuum leak the engine picks up idle speed and smooths out
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Falcon67

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2018, 10:21:34 AM »
First thing I would do to restore the use of the mixture screws and lean out the idle would be to drill (2) .125 holes in the primary butterflys.


This "could" work but I would consider it a last resort.  I have a lot of Holleys on many different engines and displacements and cams and none have required drilling the butterflys.    I would rather open up the idle air bleeds because they can be replaced easy.  But even before that, I would put a thin wire in each of the metering block IFRs to lean out the idle.  Quick, easy and adjustable.  I'd start with a couple of individual pieces from #12 stranded wire.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2018, 12:51:41 PM »
Chris, on an early holley like this the IFR will almost certainly be located in the idle well under the cup plug.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2018, 12:53:04 PM »
very hard to clean under them.  Even and ultrasonic cleaner and a variety of harsher cleaners don't always get it.  You can buy a blank restriction or drill it out and relocate the ifr.

Falcon67

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Re: Holley carb woes
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2018, 02:29:48 PM »
Well then - that's different.