This is getting frustrating...new 445 reluctant to start.

[Yellow Truck]

I posted a couple of videos of the first start of my freshly built 445 - BBM heads, Comp roller cam, T&D roller rockers, and Prison Break stroker kit. We saw a few minor problems after it started and shut it down after about 20 minutes, but the engine itself ran nicely. When it ran we were able to get it settled down at about 13 degrees of advance, but it was rich at idle so we had the screws turned almost all the way in. In fact, we turned them ALL the way in at one point and it still ran - pretty sure we had the primaries open too much to keep it running and didn't have the time given the other issues (no temp gauge for starters) to work the carb (QFT SS 830). We saw some dieseling but it restarted fine, and after a short test drive (lots of snap at 1/3 throttle but tended to fall on its face above 1/2) it shut down cleanly.

The next day I sorted out the tach and temperature gauge and a coolant leak, and tried to start it. No joy. Lots of coughs but it wouldn't light. Made what was probably the wrong assumption that it was a carb issue, so we decided to  go back to a carb that ran on the previous 410 - an Edelbrock 600. Still really hard to start, and we had to mess big time with the ignition timing. We didn't have a timing light at the time, but with the Edelbrock we did get it started, but it ran very rough - much worse than it had on the QFT.

The next day tried to start it again, bought a new timing light, and checked the timing even though it wouldn't start. Timing seemed to be at around 30 degrees advanced, got it back to around 13, but couldn't start it. Saw some inconsistent flashes from the light - lots of missing flashes. At one point I saw no flashes from #1 but lots of flashes when I put the pick up on the lead from the coil. We changed some plug wires around, and then had the light flashing on #1 again. Pulled a plug and confirmed spark, and gave up needing some expert help.

Decided to go back to the QFT - we backed the idle screw out to the factory setting (pretty sure it was open to far) and opened the secondary a crack to help with the rich idle, and set the mixture screws back to factory. I also got replacements for the Pertronix Ignitor and Flame Thrower coil. Tonight I had a friend who is a mechanic by trade (heavy diesel) but who has done a lot of custom builds (everything from Quads and dirt bikes to a 521 in his 68 F100) help me. We were messing around with the timing and again we saw a lot of missing flashes. Then no flash on #1, but flashes on the coil to distributor lead, checked and no flashes on #2, pulled #5 plug and no spark. At no point tonight did we even get a cough. We are getting fuel and air.

We have oil pressure, so the cam is turning the distributor and oil drive shaft, and the rotor is turning. We saw and felt some movement on the flat spring on the rotor that makes contact with the top of the distributor. Good voltage to the coil.

All we can think of is we have a bad rotor or distributor cap. They are new - bought them from Napa but that is no guarantee they are good. I'll pick up new ones tomorrow as they are relatively cheap.

Any other thoughts?

[rhinosoft]

Had similar issues - turned out that the MSD cable had pulled out of the joiner slightly when we pulled the engine. This was just by the connector next to the MSD box. Finally worked out that there were random connections and when fixed ran like a charm.

Worth a look anyway.

Graeme

[Barry_R]

Petronix stuff seems to either work well or make you nuts....

If its a Ford distributor with the conversion deal, check for the little ground strap that goes from the upper breaker plate to the lower breaker plate.  It needs to have that.

Check for a true 12 volts to the red wire when cranking and in the run position.  Sometimes they seem to work fine with less as in running through the OE resistance coil primary wire, other times they need the real 12 volts.  Might need to rig up a key-on 12 relay for that.  You can quickly check to see if that's the problem by rigging a chunk of wire direct from battery positive to the red wire & starting it.  Make it something you can just yank off since it'll be the only way to turn off the engine if it works.

I had a flaky (new) coil act like that on my '46 Ford.  Took me a long time to figure that out.  As in a year.  Car would only start if you had the throttle "just so", and fanned the key "just so", and did not have it too rich or too lean.  Sounds like you already swapped the coil out. 

Had a customer car that would not start.  Everything looked perfect.  Pretty reproduction wire set had the coil wire pull back out of the coil tower and just "sit there" resting on the last 1/16 of the boot.  Looked perfectly connected but marginal if any spark could jump that gap.  Only found that when we pulled all the wires off to check them - an "oh poop" moment after hours of chasing ghosts.

[My427stang]

The next day I sorted out the tach and temperature gauge and a coolant leak, and tried to start it. No joy.

I'd start by disconnecting the tach trigger wire and then using a test light (not a volt meter), check for power during crank with the key on the pos side of the coil, then switch to the neg side of the coil and see if it flashes (assuming it doesn't start right up with the tach unhooked)

In preparation for the next start, or immediately after,  if it's a 4 corner idle, I'd set all 4 at 3/4 out, if its primary only, 1 1/8 out, close the primaries to where you just see the start of the transition slot from the bottom, and then add a little secondary idle, even if you add too much, its OK, it'll just idle high.

I agree with Barry, but it could be something as simple as a shorted tach, which is why I quoted you, hopefully the tach didn't take out the module, but the test light should tell you

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks guys. I don't feel like quite such an idiot for being unable to solve this. One thing - if I put the pick up for the timing light on the lead from the coil to the distributor, I see a lot of flashes (seems pretty much one for every cylinder) but when I move the pick up to the specific plug wires, nothing.

I will pull the tach off the coil, and I'll try and get a voltage at the coil from the ignition. Barry, I will also try a direct lead from the battery if we are not making progress.

[Barry_R]

Take a hard look at the rotor.  On old GM stuff we used to see them burn a hole right through the rotor and they would go to ground inside the distributor & never get out to the plug wires.

I've been "out of the shop" much more than "in" for a while....just starting to return to normal around here. 
Non-business stuff.  Have a lot of "housekeeping" to do....

[shady]

I think your chasing your tail with the timing light. I have an old sun induction light & it is always missing flashes. Depends on the wires & location of the pick-up. If your getting some flashes, you should at least get a hiccup on trying to start it. maybe pull the plugs & see what they look like. maybe a massive vac. leak. try a shot of ether, & double check dist. index.

[Yellow Truck]

I found a replacement cap and rotor at a local Mustang specialty shop - on my way to pick them up. I did look at the rotor and for the amount of cranking it is showing no signs of arcing or the kinds of marks I'm used to seeing on a rotor. I also noted that the spring tab that makes contact with the center contact point on the crown of the rotor is a little loose - I can feel it rock back and forth where I expect it to be tightly riveted down. Sadly I tossed the old cap and rotor last year.

I hear you about "non business stuff". For good or bad, life tends to interfere with our plans.

[Yellow Truck]

Shady, I hear you and was concerned about the light, but we are seeing 100% of the flashes on the coil side, and none on the plug side of the distributor, and we saw no spark on the #5 when we pulled it and set the plug on the intake - to be clear, the intake has a good ground. I pulled the #5 because it is easily accessible and I've been pulling the #1 too much! The plugs are a little black for the early rich start, but they are not gas soaked or fouled.

I'll have my friend bring his Snapon light over tonight.

[Lenz]

Lots of great info here.  I have personally experienced the hole through the center of the rotor, it was subtle but effectively shut down everything but an occasional "pop".  The plugs are another thing.  Don't know if I'm the only one but I have seen an entire set of plugs wash out, that was on a 79 351M Bronco.  They weren't brand new but they "looked" fine.  Did not want to believe it but I swapped in fresh and she fired right up.  One thing's for sure, you've got the steady flashing between the coil and distributor and nearly nothing at the plugs so you've got it cornered anyway, and at least on the surface looks like nothing too expensive either.  Good luck with the rest of the sort out.

[KMcCullah]

How old is your gas? I fought this issue recently. Pump gas with ethanol has a really short life. Especially in the summer time.

[cammerfe]

Plus one on the gas. Tried for two days to get Brother Lon's 427 TP/ '67 Mustang to light off after about two months of setting in the garage. About the 9th or 10th time around of looking for the problem we finally dumped a bit of gas down the carbs---and got immediate fire that promptly died when the splash ran out. Put a pick-up hose from the S-W fuel pumps into a fresh can of gas and all was well!!!

KS

[Yellow Truck]

Plugs are new, only in since the first fire. Gas is 3 weeks old, Shell 91 octane.

I did pick up a new cap and rotor today - cheap thing to try. I will also clean the connection points on the plugs and wires before I put them back on.

[Katz427]

I know it is frustrating btdt. I took my 1954 F100 over to a friend's house for a 1 month storage. I filled it with gas from the Mobil station on my way to his house. A month later I went to retrive it and would not start. We did all the same stuff but no start! My friend put some of the gas in a small coffee can and tried to light it ...Nothing! He could not get a light off. I went and got fresh gas and poured down the carb..Presto, fired right off.  I hope you are as lucky!

[Yellow Truck]

Really? Gas only good for a month? Wow, I have left vehicles for 2 or 3 months and the only problem was the battery. We did spill some gas on the intake because I had not tightened one of the connections and mopped it up. It burnt really nicely.

Well, it rained cats and dogs today and the truck is in the driveway, so didn't get much done. I did pull one of the header gaskets because it was leaking like mad, and I'm sad to say the crush points on the headers miss the top of the intake, and I can't pull them up enough with the header bolts in place to correct. I think I have a nasty bit of grinding in my future to oval out the holes on the headers to let me install them a little higher.

[My427stang]

RI did pull one of the header gaskets because it was leaking like mad, and I'm sad to say the crush points on the headers miss the top of the intake, and I can't pull them up enough with the header bolts in place to correct. I think I have a nasty bit of grinding in my future to oval out the holes on the headers to let me install them a little higher.

You may not get where you want, you have to make up approx .250 and there just isn't that much room between the bolt head and the pipe

FPA makes headers with the CJ/Edelbrock pattern, but you do have to do a little grinding on the frame rail.  Other than that, they fit very nice

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, you may be right, but at present the crush on the gasket just misses the edge of the exhaust port or barely touches it. I hope I don't need new headers because 1) it is a bitch to get them in and out without pulling the engine (did it once) and 2) I have spent enough on this project (I know lots of other projects on this forum make mine look cheap but still...).


Thanks for the tip on the FPA headers. I see they have a set they claim work with a 4WD. I didn't know there was another option for the 4x4.

[My427stang]

I run Hedmans, but spent a lot of time and money on my D2s to flow less than your BBMs

I bet you can get them to seal, port alignment may not be perfect, but I bet you'll be OK.

Be sure to look at both the CJ and truck style header gaskets though, my hunch is the smaller ID Hooker or Hedman truck header will work better, but they are very different in port dimensions from a CJ/early port

[Yellow Truck]

Back to my primary problem - it won't start.

To recap - it had run fairly well but rich on the initial firing, with some dieseling on shutdown. On the final test we drove it a 1/2 mile and it quit cleanly on shut down. After not being able to start it I put a new coil and Ignitor on it, and noticed the timing light was showing flashes on the coil side, but none on the plug side of the distributor, and no spark on a plug when pulled.

I bought and put a new cap and rotor on, cleaned the spark plug terminals and put the wires back on. Yes, I got the firing order right. I charged the battery before any tests (12.9 V). Tried to crank it a few times by giving it a good squirt of gas from the carb and holding the throttle about 1/4 or 1/3 open. Not even a hint of firing.

Then we pulled the number 5 plug and with the plug making contact with intake (I checked it for continuity to ground and it was good), and the plug made a weak, orange flash, and missed some.

Then I ran a wire from the positive on the battery directly to the positive on the coil and tried it again. Same weak orange spark. Then we changed back to the original coil, same weak spark.

Then I thought I should check continuity to the plug, so we checked the inside of the cap to the end of the plug wire, and got about 120 ohms, so no problem there.

Then I checked the plug - I'm running Autolite 3924s on Barry's recommendation, and we saw 8,000 ohms, which seems in spec. They are a bit dirty (oily) but not soaked in fuel.

We are not getting any fire from the engine.

[Lenz]

Can appreciate your frustration, we've all been there at some point for sure.  At this point I'd be rolling the engine to TDC, indexing the distributor and rotor locations relative to the cap and intake and then yanking the distributor for a thorough check end to end.  I can't get my mind past the consistent good spark in from the coil and the weak (orange) to nothing out.  It would be great if you had a good spare to throw in and test but I know that's not usually the case.

I'm at that point where it is easy for me to miss the elephant in the room, these are just my thoughts on what I'd be doing at this point.-
Len

[Falcon67]

My bet would be on the module.  Check the entire ignition circuit or leave the battery connection.  Check the distributor to block connection, make sure its clean for a good ground.  And/or run a wire from the dist. body to the frame.  Make sure you have a good solid cable connection between the engine and the frame as well as a battery negative connection to either the frame and/or the engine.  Failing all that, put a points distributor back in it - if it fires, throw the Pertronix over the fence.

I'm sure they have many satisfied customers, but I've heard about so many issues I'd personally never buy one.  To many other solid options.

[My427stang]

I think you have a distributor problem too.  Although it may be firing enough out of the coil to trigger a light, it sounds like it's not powerful enough to jump the rotor/cap air gap.   

Did you pull the coil wire and see what the spark looks like out of there?

[Yellow Truck]

Well, this is interesting. It has been raining heavily hear for the past few days and promises to continue into next week. Since the truck is outside I don't have a chance of working on it until it stops.

I towed it to a local shop that is pretty Ford friendly (owner is an old Ford tech, and his dad worked on the assembly line). I first noticed them last week when I stopped at the parts store next to them to get a new rotor and cap and there was an honest to god Thunderbolt parked in front that was there for some work. Inside they had a late 40s pickup they were putting a 302 into, and a GTO and a late sixties Dart.

They tried some of the same things we had to try and get a better spark. Eventually, having had no success, one of the guys looked at the bracket and noticed I'd put a good coat of POR 15 on it. He remembered that years ago he had a car with a weak spark and it corrected when they tightened the coil bracket, so he scraped some paint of and clamped it down. Now it had good spark, but still wouldn't start.

They pulled the plugs, which were a little fouled with carbon and gas, and cleaned them, and still couldn't get it to start, so they put in new NGK Platinum plugs and it lit first time.

Still need to work on the carb as it is running a bit rough and idling at around 900-1,000 rpm, but in torrential down pour today it got me home. Due to the severity of the weather I didn't try to slam it, but it is running!

[machoneman]

Yeah! Happy days are here again! 

[Yellow Truck]

Well, this is interesting. It has been raining heavily hear for the past few days and promises to continue into next week. Since the truck is outside I don't have a chance of working on it until it stops.

I towed it to a local shop that is pretty Ford friendly (owner is an old Ford tech, and his dad worked on the assembly line). I first noticed them last week when I stopped at the parts store next to them to get a new rotor and cap and there was an honest to god Thunderbolt parked in front that was there for some work. Inside they had a late 40s pickup they were putting a 302 into, and a GTO and a late sixties Dart.

They tried some of the same things we had to try and get a better spark. Eventually, having had no success, one of the guys looked at the bracket and noticed I'd put a good coat of POR 15 on it. He remembered that years ago he had a car with a weak spark and it corrected when they tightened the coil bracket, so he scraped some paint of and clamped it down. Now it had good spark, but still wouldn't start.

They pulled the plugs, which were a little fouled with carbon and gas, and cleaned them, and still couldn't get it to start, so they put in new NGK Platinum plugs and it lit first time.

Still need to work on the carb as it is running a bit rough and idling at around 900-1,000 rpm, but in torrential down pour today it got me home. Due to the severity of the weather I didn't try to slam it, but it is running!

For what it is worth I would not have tried grounding the body of the coil (no documentation anywhere I have seen calls for it) or replaced the plugs as one of the next 4 or 5 things I would have tried. Full respect to those who have done things many times and learned from it.

[fryedaddy]

way to hang in there till you got it.my son laughs at me sometimes when im having problems like that.he says ,dad you hang in there till you get it right one way or another. NEVER GIVE UP!

[WConley]

Great news!  Since that ground path is so important for your coil, I would pull the coil bracket off and put some anti-seize on the scraped-off areas.  That will ensure you continue to have a good connection going forward.  While you're at it I would make sure the coil-to-bracket surfaces are clean.

The NEG wire on your coil is going to a good clean ground, right?

Glad you got-er running!

- Bill

[machoneman]

Yes, one can't really have too many good ground straps! 

[Yellow Truck]

The NEG wire on your coil is going to a good clean ground, right?

- Bill

Bill, on the Pertronix instructions, and when I called them to confirm, there is no negative to ground on the coil terminal. They want that connected to the Pertronix unit negative. We did add a ground from the terminal in one of our tests and got no difference in the spark quality. I was asked earlier if I had checked the spark at the coil and I never go a break in the constant rain (which is REALLY odd here as we live in a semi desert).

I have just plain NEVER seen anything that suggests that the case of the coil needs to be grounded, but I'll file that one away in case I ever need it again.

Next up, after driving it home the temperature was at the low end of hot (not surprising, cool wet day, not driving it hard) and it dieseled for a few seconds on shut down. I haven't experienced this before on any of the previous engines in this truck.

[ScotiaFE]

Couple of things.
The run on is because you are running the carb fat.
Now there is nothing wrong with that, but it will cause the run on when the engine is up to temp.
You can lean it out a tad or if you like it that fat then put it in 4th and kind of stall the thing.
Most likely you have the blades open to much at idle and are fat on idle.
Depending on which Pertronix you have it will require a matched coil. Either a 1.5 ohm or 3.0 ohm.
It will make a big difference.
Do you have the correct coil?
Is your actual key switch in good working order?
Do you have a large ground strap from the engine to the chassis?
The best place is the back of the right head to the chassis.
It's a ground fault. Keep looking. 

[Lenz]

Great news, glad to see you're up and running and you gave it the pouring rain test drive as a bonus .  I for my part will sit back and pay attention to the input you receive on the dieseling issue, it'll be interesting to see how that is resolved.

[Yellow Truck]

Howie, I did originally pick up a mismatched coil and ignitor. I have an Ignitor, not the Ignitor II, and I bought a Flame Thrower II. Luckily for me (and for a change) I read the instructions before replacing the original ones and read the warning. I have a 1.5 ohm coil, the Flame Thrower II is only .6 of an ohm.

I think it is rich, the guy that got it to start didn't do anything to the carb, just started it, didn't even check the vacuum. I have the secondary blade open a fraction, just so you can see the bottom of the transfer slot. This gave some relief from having to open the primary too much with the idle screw, which was pulling fuel from the the transfer slot - when we first got it to run I turned the idle mixture screws all the way in on all four and it still ran at idle.

I'll check the vacuum at idle and then make a decision about the power valve and jetting, and go from there. May change the idle bleed screws as well, but one thing at a time.

I have a good ground from the back of the intake to the fire wall, and I have a big ground strap from the side of the block. I checked the continuity of the intake to the negative on the battery and got zero ohms, so I'm pretty confident with that. I have not specifically checked the heads to ground, but I'll do that as well.

[Bolted to Floor]

Glad to see it running.

[amdscooter]

Glad to hear you are getting it sorted! Been reading the thread with interest. I went through similar machinations with my ignition. Stock, mixed stock & Petronix, full Petronix.. mixed Petronix and MSD, full MSD. Drove me nuts. Plus I had the whole "pink resistor" wire I needed to bypass. 

Sounds like you are down to the short strokes now, get a vac gauge on it and adjust the carb. How much timing are you running initial and total?

[Yellow Truck]

amdscooter - it is at 13 - 14 initial now, I have not had a chance to check it with the engine running, we set it with the starter when we were trying to light it. When I get a break in the weather I'll check timing at idle and with some rpm on the motor, along with the vacuum. The distributor was re-curved to give about 21 degrees for a total of 34 or 35, with all the advance in by 2,950 rpm.

Once I have some miles and shifts on the clutch we will put it on a chassis dyno and set the timing to optimal.

[amdscooter]

^^^ Sounds like a good plan, let us know how it hashes out.

[runthatjunk]

That should have caused no spark at all, since that is where the switching is done to cause the spark.  I don't understand why grounding case of coil would make a lick of difference.

Your mechanic changed plugs, those could be a part of the dieseling condition also

[Yellow Truck]

That should have caused no spark at all, since that is where the switching is done to cause the spark.  I don't understand why grounding case of coil would make a lick of difference.

Your mechanic changed plugs, those could be a part of the dieseling condition also

Sorry - not following. What would have caused no spark at all?

I may pull a plug when it isn't raining (getting biblical) and see if the spark is better, and I have the old plugs so I can try one, but they said they saw a significant difference. No idea why you would have spark and no combustion, even weak spark, but it was running. Hope I don't need new plugs every time I want to drive it!

How would new plugs cause dieseling? I've not read anything about that. Also I note that it was dieseling on shut down the other two times we got it to start.

[NIsaacs]

It is not the new plugs so much as the heat range. Maybe the heat range is hotter, that can add to the run on. I would say your initial timing is too slow, slow timing requires more idle screw advance and adds to the run on. It also makes them hard to start, it sounds like you are not sure what the timing is?  What are you using for gas?

Nick

[Barry_R]

most often dieseling is caused by excessive idle airflow - blades are open too far.  I suggest more initial timing which will allow you to close the throttle up a touch to maintain idle RPM.  If that proves not a viable option you could look at adding an idle stop solenoid - very common throughout the 70s and 80s for exactly that purpose - closes the throttle blades when the key goes "off".

[runthatjunk]

I may have misunderstood, but one of your posts stated you grounded the negative side of the coil in search of a better spark and saw no significant change.   Grounding the negative side of the coil should cause no spark at all since the circuit becomes constant and never switches, since the positive side of coil should be wired to a constant voltage.



Missed that engine was experiencing run on prior to plug change.

[Yellow Truck]

Being decidedly NOT an expert on these matter: first I think grounding from the coil terminal is immaterial since the Pertronix unit switches the positive, we tried it because we were scratching our heads too much, and it made no difference to the spark quality.

Regarding plug temperature range, according to their site the NGK G-Power 7090 is a heat range 5 plug. Now NGK's website is pretty much useless but I think a 5 is about the middle of the range (2 being cool, 11 being hot). Not really sure how one goes about picking the initial plug, but I gather what I have to do is run it for a bit and pull them and look at the plug.

Barry, I'll look at the timing again. Assuming it is around 13 degrees, how much do you suggest advancing it?

[My427stang]

Being decidedly NOT an expert on these matter: first I think grounding from the coil terminal is immaterial since the Pertronix unit switches the positive, we tried it because we were scratching our heads too much, and it made no difference to the spark quality.

Regarding plug temperature range, according to their site the NGK G-Power 7090 is a heat range 5 plug. Now NGK's website is pretty much useless but I think a 5 is about the middle of the range (2 being cool, 11 being hot). Not really sure how one goes about picking the initial plug, but I gather what I have to do is run it for a bit and pull them and look at the plug.

Barry, I'll look at the timing again. Assuming it is around 13 degrees, how much do you suggest advancing it?

Something is goofy here.  The spark happens when the field collapses in the coil, and that happens because the trigger wire from the neg side of the coil is grounded through the distributor, be it Duraspark, points, or whatever.

The Pertronix should have a ground, a 12V wire, and a trigger wire.  The ground should be grounded, the 12V wire should have power during crank and run, and the trigger wire should connect to the negative side of the coil (with the wire from the tach)

Do you have something different?  I have NEVER seen a system where it fires off the positive wire.  Maybe you have the coil wired backwards?  I think they will fire that way but work poorly.  Just trying to make sense of your "switches the positive" comment

BTW, an easy, but not exact way to see if your primaries are too far open is to see if the ported vacuum on the pass side is alive at idle.  If it is, then you need to figure out why the primaries are so far open.  It could be the secondaries are closed too tight, or it could be you have other things wrong causing it to not idle well and need excessive primary idle.  Often, it'll run on because it's getting both idle and transition fuel, PLUS extra air and continues to chug.

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, I misread the wiring diagram, but I should have remembered that collapse of the field causes the discharge. I am looking at the forecast and we are promised sun, clouds, and a thunderstorm. Tomorrow only a little rain. May get a chance to do some work, and I will have a look at the vacuum. When we were first running it we were taking ported vacuum and it was showing 5 inches at idle, which explains why it was running rich and we couldn't get it leaner with the mixture screws - we were already into the transition slot and the idle position screw was so wide open we were into the ported vacuum.

Since then we opened the secondaries a fraction and it isn't running rich at idle.

[Yellow Truck]

Started her up today, she runs quite a bit rougher than the initial start so I took her out and ran her for about 40 minutes (went to an exhaust shop) and she runs nicely at the low end of the temperature range. She is dieseling on shutdown, but not severely.

Checked the vacuum - zero on the ported side, 5 inches on the manifold side. Here is where it gets interesting - on the Edebrock it ran like crap but made 7 to 10 inches of vacuum. I then put a timing light on it and it showed 11 degrees advance. I'm going to take it in on Wednesday and have O2 bungs welded into the exhaust behind the collectors so we do some work on the fuel mixture. I'll also wait till my buddy is free to look at the timing with me - I can't hold the light and rev the engine very reliably.

On the bad news side the headers I have a crap - the mating surfaces are not aligned correctly so some of them are at a 5 to 10 degree tilt, and the ports on the head are larger than the header inlets.

FPA got back to me and a set of their headers will set me back $1,000. OUCH! I asked my exhaust guy if he could fix them and he said by the time he did I'd have bought new headers.

Now the question is, who makes a decent set of headers that will fit the BBM exhaust port? I measured them and they are 2 inches tall by 1 7/16ths. I looked at a couple of makers websites and they are not specific. Hooker, for example, sell a set that they claim will fit a 428-390-352 4WD F100, but they are silent on the exhaust port they fit.

[Barry_R]

You should have twice that much vacuum at idle.....

[Joe-JDC]

Any CJ header should fit the BBM heads.  They specifically built them to work with existing stock bolt holes.  When I port them, I use the Felpro FE header gasket, and the port fits the header gasket.   Joe-JDC

[My427stang]

Now the question is, who makes a decent set of headers that will fit the BBM exhaust port? I measured them and they are 2 inches tall by 1 7/16ths. I looked at a couple of makers websites and they are not specific. Hooker, for example, sell a set that they claim will fit a 428-390-352 4WD F100, but they are silent on the exhaust port they fit.

Hooker truck headers have the truck exhaust port, not the BBM.

In the end, the FPAs are likely the most affordable CJ ported header.  The other option would be to fully weld each tube of what you have externally, then port the inside to match.  That's a lot of labor though

On your vacuum, how is the carb adjusted now?  Also, did you set initial timing with the vacuum advance disconnected?  I agree, I have run 300 duration cams in small inch motors that made more vacuum.  Something isn't right

[Yellow Truck]

You should have twice that much vacuum at idle.....

I know, I just checked the video I took and it is actually 6 inches, still not enough. I think we need to do some work to get the idle right and it may correct the vacuum, but not having done this before I don't know how much it can come up with getting the idle screw/mixture balance. I do know that right now it sounds like I'm running an insanely lumpy cam, and I'm not, so there is much improvement to be had. I'm also getting bungs welded into the exhaust this week so I can get O2 values - everyone I've spoke to says that getting them from the exhaust tips is unreliable.

What she sounds like now:
https://youtu.be/2T1OnypJ8mU

What she sounded like after the first start:
https://youtu.be/DQ0Xmjho8Lc

[Yellow Truck]

Any CJ header should fit the BBM heads.  They specifically built them to work with existing stock bolt holes.  When I port them, I use the Felpro FE header gasket, and the port fits the header gasket.   Joe-JDC

Joe - I called Hedman and Hooker, Hooker never picked up but the Hedman street header support desk told me they don't do CJ style headers and put me over to their racing group. The guy there told me that there are NO stock CJ style headers for a late 60's pickup. The FPA headers look nice even if it is the wrong picture, but ceramic coated they are $1,000. I called Sanderson and their FF427 header (CJ style and ceramic coated) is $535, but it is a shorty - I suppose that is why it will fit - all the twisty bit is done in the exhaust and I'd have to have the front end of my exhaust re-done.

Ross - I would have to have new mating surfaces as well, just porting would remove all of the top, so that would also involve new machining. I'll discuss the cost of the exhaust re-route with my exhaust guy when I get him to put in the new bungs for the O2 sensor.

[My427stang]

Your current video doesn't sound too healthy, skip maybe, retarded timing maybe, maybe it's just the exhaust leak, but I'd be looking at all the plugs, maybe checking the plug wires for resistance, maybe even cup your hand over the carb and see if it idles up (vaccum leak)

As far as the headers, sorry to hear the challenge, but big heads need expensive headers on a truck.  I try to talk guys out of it and more over I really wish we could buy heads with an angled lip on the roof and floor of the exhaust port, then you could just grind away the side you didn't need.   

In your case, I'd be going with the FPA.   Price them uncoated and maybe do it locally, doubt it'll be much cheaper, but might save a little. In the end though, the cost will only burn once

Of course you could sell off the BBMs and build a set of D2s like the common folk do

BTW, how did you fog out your plate in the movie?  I wanted to do that on one I did without covering the plate, that is cool

[Joe-JDC]

On the FPA headers, I would get them un-coated, also.  I bought a set for my '55 T-Bird, and they don't fit the ports very well, so I had to grind on them to get them to fit the gasket shape, and port location.  The coating will probably strip out from the grinding, and now I wish I had gotten them un-coated.  I could get it done locally after I fitted them to the heads.  I also was a bit disappointed with the flow numbers, but don't have anything to compare them with.  My heads flow more without the headers, and that is unusual.  Most every exhaust port will pick up flow with a header bolted to it, especially long tube headers.  These didn't.  Joe-JDC

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, I'll start at the very first stage - In Youtube you first click on the blue person icon in the very top right, it opens a box and you pick "Creator Studio". You now can see the videos you've uploaded. Pick "edit" beside the one you are interested, and then above the video you will see "info and settings", "enhancements", "audio", etc. above the video. Pick "enhancements" and the video will run with a split down the middle, and to the right you will have "quick fixes", "filters", and "blurring effects". Pick "blurring effects", and pick "edit" beside "custom blurring" and you will be able to draw a box over your plate. It then follows the plate (you only have to catch it once).

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, I'll try some of those things tomorrow. I had checked most of the wires, but I didn't do it systematically. I will advance the ignition a little more, and I'll look for leaks. It did idle up a bit when I took the cap off the vacuum port to check the vacuum. The plugs are new, second new set.

I noticed that Nick asked what fuel I'm running - it is Shell 91 octane. There are some higher octane fuels around but they all have fairly high methanol content and the Shell product is pure petroleum.

Honestly I'm a little scared of it right now, but I did get about 12 miles on it including some brief WOT, and some stuck in traffic idling, without overheating or other bad behaviour, so I'm gaining confidence that it isn't going to blow up. I will say that it has less snap now than when we first started it - certainly at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle because WOT wasn't working at that point, and I think it is running well below its capability. It doesn't hesitate on initial acceleration or run badly under throttle, so I'll start gently testing idle mix etc.

[NIsaacs]

Sorry about the gas question, I re-read every post and noticed you answered that question on post 12.

The video indicates slow initial timing. I would kick it up to 16-18, that will bring the idle up several hundred rpm, so turn the idle screw back down back down and check your vacuum, it should be up about 11 or 12. It should shut off without run on now. If the engine likes the timing here, you might need to limit the mechanical advance some if your total is too much.

Are you running a carb spacer? If so, are you certain all gaskets match? Even if no spacer, be sure the carb to manifold gasket is right. If you have a vacuum leak, sometimes they are really hard to find. Do you have a power brake booster? If so, you might plug the line to eliminate that possibility (leak) while you are in the trouble shooting stage.

Nick

[Yellow Truck]

Nick - no worries - this thread has gotten a little long. I do have a spacer, and while I'm sure the gaskets are good I may put a little anaerobic sealant on the intake to spacer gasket. The intake has the least clean surface and I am also unlikely to remove it. The spacer to carb one I'm probably going to remove a few more times.

[My427stang]

Backing up a bit,  no new info, but after you mentioned systematic

I would slow this effort down and rule some things out

1 - Pull all plugs and read them
2 - Check all wires for resistance per foot using an Ohmmeter (should be all the same per foot, although different numbers) paying close attention to any wires that fed plugs that were different than the others
3 - Compression test (optional as plugs are out, but would be good to find a tight valve, etc)
4 - Check TDC on your balancer
5 - Check that the engine has a good ground and the distributor has a good ground
6 - Check initial timing vac advance disconnected (anything over 14 will run well if the balancer is right)
7 - Adjust idle a/f when hot and choke open for best vacuum

If you find something on any one step, note it, fix it, or look for a cause, then continue with the list.  If it still doesn't run well, we'll give you another list.  The key though is to continue with the list even if you find something, don't just yell "eureka" and see how it runs, we want to rule it all out and then allow a basic tune once you find the issue.

It seems like between the rain, the trip to the shop, and all the posts that this is turning into experimentation and as you said, we need to be systematic.

If after all that, if it still runs poorly, then we need to think about going inside, but if you execute this list in a calm, zen like manner, slow and methodically, you'll have some answers, or a well-running engine

[Yellow Truck]

Thank you Ross, I will do as you suggest. A few things to note - I have checked continuity from the intake to ground and found it presented zero ohms, so basically a dead short. I'll check the heads as well.

I was thinking about doing a compression test, but didn't really have a reason, now I do.

The balancer is new, I can't imagine it has shifted, but easy enough to get a rough check. Exact check will require I borrow a gauge.

Without fixing the exhaust leaks I've been told that doing O2 tests is pointless, so I'm looking into header options. Seems Sanderson FF427CJ shorty and FPA Tri-Y long tubes are the only options. Advantage of the shorty headers is I don't have to lift the engine (have to cut up the headers in there but they are not worth much - I think they are Flowtech so not worth saving), but I understand that shorty headers provide less torque. The FPA headers will also take at least 3 weeks to make.

[Lenz]

You should have twice that much vacuum at idle.....

I know, I just checked the video I took and it is actually 6 inches, still not enough. I think we need to do some work to get the idle right and it may correct the vacuum, but not having done this before I don't know how much it can come up with getting the idle screw/mixture balance. I do know that right now it sounds like I'm running an insanely lumpy cam, and I'm not, so there is much improvement to be had. I'm also getting bungs welded into the exhaust this week so I can get O2 values - everyone I've spoke to says that getting them from the exhaust tips is unreliable.

What she sounds like now:
https://youtu.be/2T1OnypJ8mU

What she sounded like after the first start:
https://youtu.be/DQ0Xmjho8Lc

First, let me say Ross' systematic approach will get you where you need to be, it is sound advice.  Second, if you only had 6 inches at the beginning and it sounds "cam'd" up way past what you have in there I'm beginning to think about your intake gasket to head match and the potential for vacuum loss where you can't test it.  The engine could be sealed up fine with no leaks and sucking air from the valley.

Apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it, but it seems worth noting.

[Yellow Truck]

Len, I mentioned it a few posts back, but I did put an old Edlebrock on the engine when I was confused about where the starting problem lay, and with the Eddy it made 7 to 10 inches of vacuum, but it was running wildly rough. The Eddy had been on my old 410 and sitting on a shelf for over a year.

One other thing I mentioned earlier is that with the QFT it whistles like mad.

[My427stang]

The whistling carb is odd, but not unheard of, assuming you don't just have a 3/8 vacuum line unhooked, wouldn't be the first guy to accidentally miss one under the rear of the carb.

Good test on the intake ground test, assuming you had one lead to the negative post of the battery.  Checking the head isn't that important through, I would be checking distributor body to intake, or distributor body to neg battery post to verify that when the distributor wanted to collapse the coil field, it can.

Let us know how the checklist goes, and as goofy as it sounds, enjoy following it.  Don't treat that checklist as a hurry up and do, take your time, make sure everything you look at you understand, and enjoy the troubleshooting, it's the best way to discover a problem

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, I printed out the steps so I can follow them and make notes.

I noted I hadn't been systematic in the testing plug wires because I had thought I had a bad #1 wire, so I checked it and a couple of others. No question time to settle in and work this progressively.

[Yellow Truck]

Following the check down list -

First I pulled the wires off and measured resistance from the inside of the cap to the plug end (might as well follow the electron path as far as possible) - the results when measured by the length varied from 41.4 to 44.8 ohms per foot. I think that rules out a fault with the wires, although there may be a problem with the wire to plug connection since it was not tested. I will test that before I am done.

Second I pulled the plugs - pictures below. Number 8 seemed a little wetter than the others, but they all show evidence they were firing. They all look rich to me. The mark on the top of #1 is because I dropped it.

I'm looking to borrow a compression tester today, if I can't I'll buy one.

[My427stang]

For some reason I cannot see pics at work.  I'll look when I get home.

Don't worry about them looking rich if they are all firing, we know it isn't running well, it would be surprising if the plugs looked good.  Again, I can't see them, but the thing I will look for is if they are too far gone to trust for continued troubleshooting because they are fouled.

Disregard much of what I say until I get home, but did the truck backfire at all when you were trying to get it running, or did you go inside the carb for any reason?

[Yellow Truck]

With these plugs it has not backfired. It did with the Autolites that were in it before (when it would not start). So far it is running rich and not as sharp in the throttle response as when we first got it to fire and ran it around the block.

I shortened all my plug wires today (purely aesthetic reasons) and I'll fire it tomorrow and advance the timing as it was set at 10-11 degrees. I will also check total timing.

I need to take off all the pulleys to test TDC, and I don't have access to a compression tester and I don't want to buy one, so for the moment I'll skip those two. I'm pretty sure on TDC given it is a new balancer and we were pretty fastidious putting it together (checked it several times).

I'll check the grounds before I fire it again, especially the distributor.

[ScotiaFE]

Any chance you have the rockers a tad too tight?

[My427stang]

With these plugs it has not backfired. It did with the Autolites that were in it before (when it would not start). So far it is running rich and not as sharp in the throttle response as when we first got it to fire and ran it around the block.

I shortened all my plug wires today (purely aesthetic reasons) and I'll fire it tomorrow and advance the timing as it was set at 10-11 degrees. I will also check total timing.

I need to take off all the pulleys to test TDC, and I don't have access to a compression tester and I don't want to buy one, so for the moment I'll skip those two. I'm pretty sure on TDC given it is a new balancer and we were pretty fastidious putting it together (checked it several times).

I'll check the grounds before I fire it again, especially the distributor.

OK so the reason I asked if it backfired was because I was wondering if the power valve was damaged, however,half those plugs look like they weren't firing.

There is absolutely no reason a stock set of Autolites would cause a backfire.  There are more strokers out there running 3924s than you can shake a stick at

If it were mine, I would pull the coil wire and crank it with the coil wire about 3/4 inch from the intake.  The spark should be sharp and blue.  If it is, I'd put a fresh set of Autolites in it, and assume you happened to fix what was causing the first backfire.  If it is not, I would look at the ignition, those plugs are not doing OK at all

If it still ran rich, I would bet on a bad powervalve

[Barry_R]

This is all repetitive - but worth it sometimes.  I follow the same list when things go off the rails here.

Those plugs look swimming rich for unleaded.  No question that we have a problem.  I am not a big fan of the fine wire plugs in a hot rod.  Just get a set (another set?) of 3924 Autolites - we run them in every single non-race engine here and they work just fine. 

Just stick a piece of rod in number one hole and rotate the engine around to verify number one/TDC on the pointer - no need for perfect - we're just checking for "close enough".  With all new stuff it will also be fine unless the pointer got goofed up somehow or the wrong one got installed.  There are a couple unusual oddball ones "out there" but odds are really against you having one.

Fire it up and get the idle timing to 16-18 degrees.  Don't worry about WOT timing right now.  We just want to get the idle & low speed stuff sorted.  We can play with advance curves later on.

With the timing up at 16-18 you should be able to set the carb to baseline throttle position and idle mixture screw setting as discussed earlier - throttle just cracked all around and 3/4-1 turn out from bottomed on mixture screws.  Does it respond to the mixture screws?

If it won't play nice at idle at this point there is something wrong with either carb, ignition - or ?

Look for and eliminate every possible vacuum leak - carb front, carb back, carb side, intake runners, PCV, power brakes - anything hooked to vacuum should be removed and capped so we eliminate outside influences.  You should not need sealer on a carb gasket.

I wish you were closer - on the dyno I sometimes stab in an MSD "ready to run" and a known good carb just to eliminate variables when trouble presents itself.

[Yellow Truck]

Howie - I followed T&D and Barry's instructions, and we went from one turn in being just snugged (could still turn them) to one more turn. Curious, how would that make it behave the way it is?

Ross - if the vacuum is actually 6 inches that may cause some problems since the power valve is a 6.5. I need to play with the idle and idle mix to see. To do that I thought I'd set the initial timing. I did that tonight - just started it and ran it to temp and then set the idle up to 14 degrees. I think I will move it up again tomorrow as recommended by you and Barry. I had my brother run the engine to 3,000 while I checked it and the total timing was around 41 degrees. Idle sped up a fair bit when I increased the advance, but it didn't really smooth out. My brother checked the exhaust and it was clear.

Before I start it tomorrow I'll disconnect the brake booster, PCV and distributor advance. I'll also check it for leaks as best I can. For clarity, I was not saying the Autolites caused the backfire, I thought your question was related to the current plugs (you clarified that you were thinking about the power valve). I didn't switch to the NGKs, that was the guys that got it to start for me - they switched them because once they got a good blue spark they still couldn't get it to start even after cleaning the plugs.

I have NOT been inside the carb since we got it running the first time, but I did remove it and open the secondary butterfly valve a fraction.

Last comment on these plugs - I haven't looked at a lot, but I thought all the plugs looked like they were showing carbon from burning too rich. Which ones do you think look like they were not firing?

Barry - you are right - it is a long way to your shop. I will start tomorrow with disconnecting all the vacuum draws and check for leaks. I may try and rig up a home smoke machine. Luckily I am a cigar smoker!

If I'm satisfied with that I will pull the plugs and try and get it to TDC. I have checked it several times as we put it together and finally before we started it to make sure we had the distributor clocked. I'll check the grounds again at the same time.

Then I'll start it, advance it to 16, and then start adjusting the mixture to see what it does to idle and vacuum. And then I'll report back.

One last question for you guys - new set of Autolite 3924s before I try and start it again?

[machoneman]

Yes, new plugs indeed!

[ScotiaFE]

If the rockers are holding the valves open even just a smidge
it will cause the engine to perform exactly like you describe.
Hard to start, low on power, runs rough.
Even the odd whistling from the carb.

[ScotiaFE]

On the next set of plugs put some anti seize on them.

[My427stang]

Don't get caught up in the PV is 6.5 and vacuum is 6.0 worry, I am talking about a failed PV.  Which may have happened when if backfired initially.

At idle, if the primaries are closed, the PV cannot provide fuel unless it is ruptured, then it dumps fuel into the chamber behind it

As far as which plug looks bad, well, only #2 sort of looks like it's firing, the others all look like they are intermittently firing at best

Regardless, like Barry, I am not fond of the fine wire plugs in a carbed engine, but if it were tuned right, they would likely do fine.  In this case, I am not sure you can get it running correctly with them in that condition

At this point, I would want to see if it has a fat juicy blue spark off the coil wire , and I also wonder what you changed other than the plugs to stop the backfire.

ON EDIT - Just to clarify

- the wrong PV, when off idle and on the main circuit, may be too rich to the tune of about 4-8 jet sizes, but the engine won't be too unhappy.  The comparison of idle vacuum to PV size is just a starting point

-a failed PV allows gas to follow a different route and just bathes the intake once the engine starts.  Its a completely different situation. 

I would get a fresh set of 3924s, I would also check for a blue spark off the coil wire, and then if the spark is good, and you cannot adjust the carb or it's still blubbering at idle, I'd consider pulling the PV and see if it ruptured.  If it did, I would replace it with another 6.5

[ScotiaFE]

If I was standing in front of the truck I would pull off the covers
and adjust the valves.
Bring the rocker adjuster down to just touch and then one full turn and lock it down.

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks guys. Time for a run to the parts store for some plugs.

BTW, it starts just fine right now.

Howie, if you look at the initial start video - the carb was a mess but we got the idle smoothed out. I suspected our problem at that time was we had the idle screw turned to far to keep it running and we were into the transition slot - we turned the mixture screws all the way in and it didn't alter the idle at all.

After that initial start I couldn't get it to start until we put in new plugs.

[Yellow Truck]

One other thing that hasn't been directly asked - the headers don't fit and I've ordered some Sanderson short tube headers with CJ flanges, but I won't have them on the truck until early September (I'm traveling most of August). My friend who actually knows his way around an engine said we can't put an O2 sensor on it until the exhaust leaks are solved as the reading will be worthless.

Would the exhaust leaks be contributing to this? They are not consistent across all cylinders.

[fryedaddy]

i wouldnt think a exhaust leak could have anything to do with it.i have been battling a header leak all summer.my car starts good and runs great except for the header leak

[My427stang]

One other thing that hasn't been directly asked - the headers don't fit and I've ordered some Sanderson short tube headers with CJ flanges, but I won't have them on the truck until early September (I'm traveling most of August). My friend who actually knows his way around an engine said we can't put an O2 sensor on it until the exhaust leaks are solved as the reading will be worthless.

Would the exhaust leaks be contributing to this? They are not consistent across all cylinders.

The exhaust leak can make an O2 sensor read incorrectly, but will not cause a mixture issue on a carbureted engine

[ScotiaFE]

Have you even looked under the covers since you got it running?

[RJP]

What are those fine wire plugs gaped at? From the pics it appears that they are at about .060" give or take which IMHO is too much for a conventional ignition system. When you get the Auto-Lite plugs try a .032"-.035" gap.

[fryedaddy]

i noticed the big plug gap too,but i didnt say anything

[Yellow Truck]

Ok, I have some things to report. First to Howie – I have not had the covers off since we first started it. I do know that it throws a lot of oil around under the covers, it did before I put the covers on and was just turning the pump with a cordless drill. Because the valve covers are pretty low I had to forgo baffles on the breather so it is leaking oil. I will probably take the covers off and grind down the baffle mounts so they can clear the rockers.

First I disconnected all the vacuum draws and noticed the hose to the PCV was not connected so we had a vacuum leak to the rear port of the carb.

I made a homemade smoke machine (cigar and a length of hose) and sealed off the top of the carb with duct tape (man’s second best friend) and blew smoke into it. I noticed a fair bit of smoke coming out of the passenger side of the carb below the air cleaner mounting plate (see video). After that I dismounted the carb and sealed the top of the spacer and blew smoke in through the vacuum port on the #4 intake runner (where the brake booster connects). When blowing smoke in there it showed no leaks and in fact built pressure that came back out the hose.
https://youtu.be/0VwVCazBvy4

Seems there are no leaks below the butterfly valves. Does it seem normal that it would leak so much below the air cleaner? Does it seem like the source of the whistle?

Next we checked the battery negative to the intake, heads, block, coil case, and the ground screw and base plate for the Pertronix. The tests showed basically an open short (i.e. negligible resistance) so all the grounds are good.

Then we pulled the plugs and did a compression test. I did this with the carb lifted off the spacer so we didn’t suck fuel in while testing. The tester would not allow a wrench in there to tighten because of the clearance in the plug holes, so it was only tightened in by turning the hose, an O ring providing the seal. Six cylinders showed 130 PSI and two showed 125 with little or no leakage after the test (see video).  This engine is supposed to be around 10.5 to 1 compression, and we are at about 14 PSI of atmospheric pressure here today. Seemed a little lower than I expected but I really didn’t know what to expect.
https://youtu.be/7Gm9UwAHlfs

Then I put in new copper Autolite 3924 plugs gapped to .035 and with a little anti seize - I forgot to check TDC while the plugs were out.  I checked the spark from the coil lead to the intake and it looked healthy (see video).
https://youtu.be/K2lCpYTeSJ4

Next I backed the idle screw in a turn and fired it -it started pretty easily. Fought with it a little to keep it running until it reached operating temp and the vacuum was still showing 5 inches and it was rough. Once it was at temp and it was holding an idle I checked the timing and it was back at 11, so I moved it out to about 16.

Then I turned the four mix screws in ¼ (90 degrees) and vacuum climbed to just under 10 inches. I adjusted the idle screw down a little and it ran around 900 to 1,000 at idle. I tried another 1/8th of a turn and the vacuum dropped to 8 inches so I went back.
https://youtu.be/SaBvhtnq_bE

Then we took it for a short drive. It pulls away fine, and responds strongly to throttle. No evidence of smoke from the tail pipes, but it is running rougher than I expect. It dieseled the first time I shut it down (bit of post ignition knock) for about a second, but on the second start and drive home it shut down almost cleanly (very slight cough).
https://youtu.be/Vact1KzZK_E

[Yellow Truck]

Ross - one question I should have asked earlier - how do you check to see if the power valve is damaged?

[ScotiaFE]

Ok, I have some things to report. First to Howie – I have not had the covers off since we first started it. I do know that it throws a lot of oil around under the covers, it did before I put the covers on and was just turning the pump with a cordless drill. Because the valve covers are pretty low I had to forgo baffles on the breather so it is leaking oil. I will probably take the covers off and grind down the baffle mounts so they can clear the rockers.

Ok a couple of things.
The first thing you should do after get it up to temp is TAKE THE COVERS OFF AND ADJUST THE VALVES. just an fyi

Second I have bought lots of new carbs over the years. They always work pretty close out of the box.
You know a couple of small adjustments but you should not have to redo every thing on a new carb to get the engine to start.
I would send the carb back to who ever sold it to you and get a different one. That one appears to be broken.

Third the compression gauge has told me that the valves are hanging open and you need to adjust them.
The gauge should read about 200 psi.

[My427stang]

I agree, something isn't right with the compression.  Typically, a stroker with a cam that is good for today's fuel will give you 175-190 lbs compression on the starter with the carb open.  You had the carb closed, but I doubt it would gain that much.  You could recheck compression #1 though with the carb at WOT to be sure, if it comes up, rule it out, then check TDC

It also makes sense that it runs better warm if it's valve related, because when things expand, everything gets looser not tighter.

That spark did not look blue to me, it looked yellow, but it may have been the movie, was it a strong snapping, blue crack of a spark?

I am not sure what to make of the whistle, do you hear it with the air cleaner off?

For the PV, some guys may have some tricks, but if I know it backfired and I have a rich mixture that doesn't make sense, I pull it out and check it with a vacuum adapter I have.  However, generally once you pull the metering block off, you can usually see the well in the carb body behind it wet with fuel (it should be dry in normal operation),  When you recheck the compression on #1 you can see if they are real rich or not and decide if you are going into the carb

Where are your mixture screws now?  They should be somewhere around 3/4 a turn out, don't change them, but wondering where you are.  Also, are they all the same?  Is the vacuum advance dead at idle still?  A little spit on the tube will tell you, don't need a number.

It sounds pretty decent going down the road, but a little lazy, I wonder if you do have a timing issue, recheck #1 compression with the carb open, check TDC, adjust valves if necessary, then we can determine what to do with timing based on what you find with the balancer.

BTW...teasing you but a real point...how did you "forget" to check TDC if you have a checklist, maybe checklist AND pencil next time so you know which steps you did 

[ScotiaFE]

I'll bet you a loon Ross that all his problems are valve adjustment related.
He did explain a bit how he adjusted the valves cold before he started it.
They were too tight to start.
It's not the carb or ignition.

The whistling is the compression charge coming back up into the carb.
Intake valve hanging open.

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, you can take the piss out of me. I didn't look at the list in the heat of the moment.

I had the carb OFF the intake for the compression test (didn't want fuel being pulled into the intake prior to firing it) so those are probably accurate. I was surprised the number wasn't higher but had no particular idea what they should be.

The spark seemed strong and white. I also note that it was not a 3/4 inch gap as you suggested.

Mixture screws are all the same and at this point I think 1 and 1/4 turns out.

Howie - not challenging my betters but in the interest of understanding it - if there is compression charge coming back up the carb why is there vacuum present? The whistle is present air cleaner on or off.

I am puzzled about something - it ran better after the first start than it has since. To Ross's comment that it decent going down the road but a bit lazy - I felt it had more initial snap the first fire than it has since, and it was running smoother at idle but too rich as soon as we got on the throttle. Would the valves be hanging up more now?

Howie - I'm not calling him out, but I bought the carb from Barry so it is not trivial to return.

Guys - I think with some evidence in hand it is time to look at the valve adjustment. As per Howie's direction back them off so the push rod is free, then turn them down to just touch and one turn past that. I think that requires had turning the engine and I'll be checking TDC at the same time.

[ScotiaFE]

The engine is running at 70% or so. Maybe a tad more but not much.
The valves are probably about a few thousands of an inch open
at TDC. This is giving you the idea that the carb is at fault.
It's not the carb. I just don't like red carbs. LOL

The reason it runs better when you get some heat in it is the
whole engine expands. The valve lash opens up and lets the valve close a tad more.
Still not enough for your engine though.

If this was a solid cam you would have been under those covers with in minutes of after the first start up.
You would have had to to see were the lash was. Believe I'm on my lash all the time.
If I loose the lash, oh ya things are going to happen.

[Yellow Truck]

To be clear I have to pull the covers and back all the adjustment screws off, then one cylinder at a time rotate the engine so both valves are closed and then turn the adjustment screw down until it touches the push rod, then one more turn.

I can't cheat and just back them all off one turn.

[ScotiaFE]

No Cheating.
You should have to do a lot lash between rounds just for thinking of that.

I do not know the exact lifter you are using so my advice was very general for a Hyd lifter.
Now if we knew the exact lifter we could check the specs to find the exact plunger depth that
is the optimum for your lifter. Normally about a .040" push down on the plunger will get you very close.
Hence one turn on the adjuster which is .042".
 

[My427stang]

You are getting good advice, so my addition will be minor

- Too tight valves = backfire and poor running
- Backfire could have taken out PV = rich mixture through entire RPM range = additional soft performance and explains plugs

Some gee-whiz info

I find the 1 1/4 out on all 4 to be real rich.  I typically see a carb on a good running engine to be 1 1/8 or so out on a primary only carb, and on a 4 corner idle, 3/4 out.   AFTER you check your lifter preload, I'd likely see how the adjustment changes, because that would make your idle very rich

I don't consider it causal, because it would only really affect idle, I sort of expect you'll be replacing a PV, but the valve adjustment is the first thing to check

[cammerfe]

A faulty power valve, in my experience, will be easy to see since the diaphragm will be loose and 'bulged' on one side.

KS

[RJP]

To add: Cranking compression will be low with the raw fuel the engine has ingested. The cyl. walls are gas washed. Try squirting some oil into the cyls. and spin the engine over to work the oil into the rings and retest compression.

[ScotiaFE]

To add: Cranking compression will be low with the raw fuel the engine has ingested. The cyl. walls are gas washed. Try squirting some oil into the cyls. and spin the engine over to work the oil into the rings and retest compression.

I'd probably change the oil before the next fire up.
Once he gets them valves set that thing will spring to life and off he goes.
Better do it now. 

[Yellow Truck]

I changed the oil after the initial fire, the oil in it has 60 minutes of running time.

Raining again today so I haven't touched it.

[fekbmax]

Maybe you shoulda put that bad ass FE in a boat instead, lol

[My427stang]

I changed the oil after the initial fire, the oil in it has 60 minutes of running time.

Raining again today so I haven't touched it.

His comment is because the oil is gas saturated, not because it's worn out.

Man it rains a lot where you are

[Yellow Truck]

Good point about the oil/gas saturation.

The rain is VERY strange. We average 16.4 inches a year and 113 wet days a year. Saturday looks good.

[Yellow Truck]

Guys, I appreciate the help, but I'm taking some advice from my friend who is suggesting I get the new headers on it before I put any more miles on it. This means early September because I won't see them for a week and I have to do a lot of travelling in August. The time I have I need to portion out and part of that needs to be spent on the motorhome as I'll be taking it out for a couple of weeks.

You will hear back from me in a month.

[Yellow Truck]

I'm back on it. I'm now re-setting the lifter pre-load, and the T&D instructions, combined with Barry's, were to turn the adjusting screw in one turn, then measure the length for the pushrods, and order them that length. Then with pushrods in place turn down one turn to engage the pushrods, and then two more turns after that.

With the engine at TDC I just backed off #1 rockers and what I found probably confirms Howie's suspicions. Fully backed out the pushrod turns freely but has no up/down movement. I can turn the adjustment screw in 1/8 of a turn and the pushrod now won't rotate. Turn the adjustment screw in 1/4 turn and the rocker starts to go down, at 1/2 turn the valve is dropping.

The original adjustment was 3 full turns down. I am stumped, I assume the lifters are now filled with oil and are providing significant pressure on the rockers. My question - the T&D instructions are below - should the rocker move at all when I'm setting the pre-load? How much pre-load should I use given that at 1/4 turn the rocker is starting to tip?

Video of the rockers moving after 1/4 turn https://youtu.be/zqeiVXvb2AM

T&D Instructions

3. DETERMINE CORRECT PUSHROD LENGTH
Place a pushrod length checker into a lifter and install a rocker arm assembly. Be
sure the cam is rotated to the base circle. Seat the bottom of the adjuster screw up
against the recess in the rocker arm and turn the adjuster screw clockwise one full
turn down. This is the initial adjuster position. Adjust the pushrod length tool to the
proper length, remove from the engine, and measure its overall length.
The rocker arm should not be operated with the adjuster screw more than one turn
up or down, from the initial adjuster position. Doing so can cut off the flow of oil to
the rocker arm.
4. FINAL ASSEMBLY
After all of the stand heights have been set; check the head bolt torque to be sure it
is set to factory specifications. Put the rocker stand back on and place a rocker
and shaft back on the stand to assure good rocker to valve alignment and
torque the stand attaching bolts to 55/65 ft-lbs. When the stands are aligned and
tightened down, place the rocker arm and shaft assemblies on the stands and
tighten the shaft hold down nuts to 25 ft-lbs. After all of the rockers have been
tightened down, set valve lash and torque the adjuster screw jam nut to 5/20 ft-lbs.


BTW does anyone know what 5/20 ft-lbs means (last part of the T&D instructions)?

[Heo]

Are you sure you dont have solid lifters?

[Yellow Truck]

I surely do not. They are hydraulic roller lifters.

When I did measurement for the pushrods I turned the screws down on full turn and used a measurement pushrod. When we installed them they turned down THREE full turns and I don't remember the rockers moving. BTW I did the measurements and initial installation with the help of friend who is both a diesel mechanic and a reasonably experienced builder (works on mud trucks, his own 521 (based on a 460) in a 67 F100, dirt bikes, you name it. My friend is VERY fastidious and I can't believe neither of us would have noticed the rockers moving when we did the initial installation.

[Heo]

Looks like you have solid lifters in the video
How hard do you pinch the push rod with your
fingers when you rotate it? if you pinch hard enough
you can rotate it even when you have bottomed the lifter

[Heo]

Its more like when you feel slight resistans on the pushrod
than not bee able to rotate it atleast with my fingers

[Yellow Truck]

It is not a case of I can't turn it, more that it doesn't turn easily. If I really grip it, yes I can turn them. That is not the issue, the issue was that the engine was running reasonably well on initial start - it was hard to get it to start, but when it started it ran fairly smoothly.

After that it ran really rough and showed lower cylinder pressure than expected (125 psi). Some of the folks on the forum suggested I was hanging the valves, and I think they may be right.

Question now is where to set the pre-load if anything beyond 1/4 turn is lowering the rocker (and I assume beginning to crack the valve)?

[Heo]

something is not right  there. Hard to say what without
seing it in person......when you have it backed of so you
have some slack in the rocker can you.....press down
the lifter.....hard to explain in English what im trying to say

[Yellow Truck]

Heo - I think what you are asking is - can we compress the lifters? I haven't tried pressing down on it directly, but if the valve springs don't have enough force to do it I don't think my fingers will be able. We turned the adjustment screw in 3 or 4 turns and the pushrod side never moved.

The engine has not been run in a month, and I note in reading Howie's notes he suggests getting the engine warm before adjusting the rockers.

My friend was wondering if we had managed to crush the lifters, but had we done that we would have had lots of play for the adjusters to take up, we had MUCH less than when we set it up before firing it.

[Heo]

Yes thats what im asking.....is all the lifters the same?
Manage to Crush all the lifters sounds strange.  What if you
set them loose and start the engine and try to adjust them
then

[Barry_R]

Go one at a time.  Cam definitely on the base circle/lowest lift point for each one.  Back adjustment off completely.  Tighten until the free loose vertical movement is taken up - you should be able to feel that.  Then go down on the adjuster one full turn.  That is where you stop and tighten the lock nut.  You are done - go to the next valve, rotate the engine to the lowest lift point and do it again.

And do not tighten the mounting studs to 50+ pounds on an FE unless you enjoy getting helicoil practice.  Those instructions sound like they are for the T&D race rockers.  I think your's are the street setup.  The 20 pounds is for the locknut while holding the adjuster with a hex key.

[Yellow Truck]

Barry,

Thanks for the reply. I understand each cylinder fires once per two revolutions of the crank, so it is 90 degrees between TDC for each cylinder in the firing order, plus checking the rocker positions, so getting to the base circle should not pose a problem.

I will do as you advise, but I am curious - what do you think is going on? Are the lifters just full of oil and not leaking down because the oil is at 55 to 60 F? Are the pushrods too long (i.e. I messed up the measurements)?

Now I have only tested the adjustment on the #1 cylinder rockers, and on those two there is NO up and down movement at fully backed out. Based on what I saw today, at one full turn down the rockers will have moved considerably, and I assume the valves will be open a crack. How will this work? Have you seen this before? On the video you can clearly see the rockers are moving at 1/2 turn down from the fully backed out position.

I'll have a go at it in the morning - after I remove the pine cones that the local mad squirrel has stuffed under the hood. Today I removed over 50 that it had hidden in the slots under the hood! When I'm done I'll put some oil in it and start it and report on the results.

[jmlay]

I vote for push rods too long causing pre-load on the lifter. If you back the adjuster all the way out & you can NOT feel a very slight bit of up and down movement pre-load exists on the lifter. Remember you have lubrication on both ends that will make it much easier to turn even with a slight bit a pre-load. Either you are not backed off all the way or the push rod is too long.

[Yellow Truck]

Barry - the T&D instructions I posted are from their website. The paper instructions that came with the parts call for 60 inch-lbs for the studs, then 25 to 30 ft-lbs for the nuts.

I was curious what they meant by 5/20 ft-lbs for the adjuster screw jam nut. The same instruction appears in the paper and on-line instructions. I gather you are saying that should be 20 ft-lbs.

It is raining again today and the truck is outside (hence the mad squirrel filling the hood with pine cones) but if I get a break I'll jump on it.

[blykins]

Don't worry about TDC, firing once per two revolutions, etc. 

Easiest and most accurate way to run the valves is the EVO method that we speak about frequently.  Hard to mess that up.  Then follow Barry's instructions on setting preload.

If you have a pushrod length checker, best be checking length again in case you are hanging the valves open.  However, if you can add preload and not push the valve spring down, that's not your problem. 

[Jason R]

Paul, I see the same rocker and valve movement on my hydraulic lifter motors when setting the valve adjustment. Once you take the slack out of the pushrod. (mine are always sloppy loose with the correct pushrods and the adjuster backed out)  Then go the one turn and you will see the rocker and valve open a little because the lifter is full of oil. It takes a like 15 to 20 seconds for the lifter to bleed a little oil out as the spring pushes the valve back shut. It just closes slow so it's hard to see with the eye. If you put a dial indicator on the spring retainer you would see clearly it comes open .040-.050" quickly as you adjust then slowly creeps back to close as the lifter bleeds enough oil to accommodate the adjustment. If you work through Barry's procedure you'll be there assuming your pushrods are correct? But you've been running it this way so it seems this adjustment can only verify another problem exists or be an improvement.
Jason

[Barry_R]

They are telling you to snug tighten the adjuster jam nut after setting the position - not to torque the snot out of it.  I have seen guys break the adjuster at the jam nut because they felt they needed to get it "good and tight".

[Yellow Truck]

Brent - I had to look up the EVO method, but it seems pretty obvious. Easier than jumping around following the firing order.

Barry - I hear you about not over torquing. I did buy a 5 to 50 ft-lbs torque wrench and so far I've only done 15 ft-lbs when torquing them.

[Yellow Truck]

Ok - many thanks, especially to Howie for recognizing it. I re-did the pre-load as recommended. On re-test the compression seemed unchanged (I did squirt some oil in each cylinder since it was the first start in a month and I had drained all the oil).

It runs much better, not yet happy with it but we are now were we can start working on tuning.

https://youtu.be/qTVXTVqgY3g

The idle is a bit high, but the throttle response is very good. No trouble breaking the tires loose at 15 mph in second gear.

Now I need to get the new headers on it and do some tuning.