This is getting frustrating...new 445 reluctant to start.

[Yellow Truck]

I posted a couple of videos of the first start of my freshly built 445 - BBM heads, Comp roller cam, T&D roller rockers, and Prison Break stroker kit. We saw a few minor problems after it started and shut it down after about 20 minutes, but the engine itself ran nicely. When it ran we were able to get it settled down at about 13 degrees of advance, but it was rich at idle so we had the screws turned almost all the way in. In fact, we turned them ALL the way in at one point and it still ran - pretty sure we had the primaries open too much to keep it running and didn't have the time given the other issues (no temp gauge for starters) to work the carb (QFT SS 830). We saw some dieseling but it restarted fine, and after a short test drive (lots of snap at 1/3 throttle but tended to fall on its face above 1/2) it shut down cleanly.

The next day I sorted out the tach and temperature gauge and a coolant leak, and tried to start it. No joy. Lots of coughs but it wouldn't light. Made what was probably the wrong assumption that it was a carb issue, so we decided to  go back to a carb that ran on the previous 410 - an Edelbrock 600. Still really hard to start, and we had to mess big time with the ignition timing. We didn't have a timing light at the time, but with the Edelbrock we did get it started, but it ran very rough - much worse than it had on the QFT.

The next day tried to start it again, bought a new timing light, and checked the timing even though it wouldn't start. Timing seemed to be at around 30 degrees advanced, got it back to around 13, but couldn't start it. Saw some inconsistent flashes from the light - lots of missing flashes. At one point I saw no flashes from #1 but lots of flashes when I put the pick up on the lead from the coil. We changed some plug wires around, and then had the light flashing on #1 again. Pulled a plug and confirmed spark, and gave up needing some expert help.

Decided to go back to the QFT - we backed the idle screw out to the factory setting (pretty sure it was open to far) and opened the secondary a crack to help with the rich idle, and set the mixture screws back to factory. I also got replacements for the Pertronix Ignitor and Flame Thrower coil. Tonight I had a friend who is a mechanic by trade (heavy diesel) but who has done a lot of custom builds (everything from Quads and dirt bikes to a 521 in his 68 F100) help me. We were messing around with the timing and again we saw a lot of missing flashes. Then no flash on #1, but flashes on the coil to distributor lead, checked and no flashes on #2, pulled #5 plug and no spark. At no point tonight did we even get a cough. We are getting fuel and air.

We have oil pressure, so the cam is turning the distributor and oil drive shaft, and the rotor is turning. We saw and felt some movement on the flat spring on the rotor that makes contact with the top of the distributor. Good voltage to the coil.

All we can think of is we have a bad rotor or distributor cap. They are new - bought them from Napa but that is no guarantee they are good. I'll pick up new ones tomorrow as they are relatively cheap.

Any other thoughts?

[rhinosoft]

Had similar issues - turned out that the MSD cable had pulled out of the joiner slightly when we pulled the engine. This was just by the connector next to the MSD box. Finally worked out that there were random connections and when fixed ran like a charm.

Worth a look anyway.

Graeme

[Barry_R]

Petronix stuff seems to either work well or make you nuts....

If its a Ford distributor with the conversion deal, check for the little ground strap that goes from the upper breaker plate to the lower breaker plate.  It needs to have that.

Check for a true 12 volts to the red wire when cranking and in the run position.  Sometimes they seem to work fine with less as in running through the OE resistance coil primary wire, other times they need the real 12 volts.  Might need to rig up a key-on 12 relay for that.  You can quickly check to see if that's the problem by rigging a chunk of wire direct from battery positive to the red wire & starting it.  Make it something you can just yank off since it'll be the only way to turn off the engine if it works.

I had a flaky (new) coil act like that on my '46 Ford.  Took me a long time to figure that out.  As in a year.  Car would only start if you had the throttle "just so", and fanned the key "just so", and did not have it too rich or too lean.  Sounds like you already swapped the coil out. 

Had a customer car that would not start.  Everything looked perfect.  Pretty reproduction wire set had the coil wire pull back out of the coil tower and just "sit there" resting on the last 1/16 of the boot.  Looked perfectly connected but marginal if any spark could jump that gap.  Only found that when we pulled all the wires off to check them - an "oh poop" moment after hours of chasing ghosts.

[My427stang]

The next day I sorted out the tach and temperature gauge and a coolant leak, and tried to start it. No joy.

I'd start by disconnecting the tach trigger wire and then using a test light (not a volt meter), check for power during crank with the key on the pos side of the coil, then switch to the neg side of the coil and see if it flashes (assuming it doesn't start right up with the tach unhooked)

In preparation for the next start, or immediately after,  if it's a 4 corner idle, I'd set all 4 at 3/4 out, if its primary only, 1 1/8 out, close the primaries to where you just see the start of the transition slot from the bottom, and then add a little secondary idle, even if you add too much, its OK, it'll just idle high.

I agree with Barry, but it could be something as simple as a shorted tach, which is why I quoted you, hopefully the tach didn't take out the module, but the test light should tell you

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks guys. I don't feel like quite such an idiot for being unable to solve this. One thing - if I put the pick up for the timing light on the lead from the coil to the distributor, I see a lot of flashes (seems pretty much one for every cylinder) but when I move the pick up to the specific plug wires, nothing.

I will pull the tach off the coil, and I'll try and get a voltage at the coil from the ignition. Barry, I will also try a direct lead from the battery if we are not making progress.

[Barry_R]

Take a hard look at the rotor.  On old GM stuff we used to see them burn a hole right through the rotor and they would go to ground inside the distributor & never get out to the plug wires.

I've been "out of the shop" much more than "in" for a while....just starting to return to normal around here. 
Non-business stuff.  Have a lot of "housekeeping" to do....

[shady]

I think your chasing your tail with the timing light. I have an old sun induction light & it is always missing flashes. Depends on the wires & location of the pick-up. If your getting some flashes, you should at least get a hiccup on trying to start it. maybe pull the plugs & see what they look like. maybe a massive vac. leak. try a shot of ether, & double check dist. index.

[Yellow Truck]

I found a replacement cap and rotor at a local Mustang specialty shop - on my way to pick them up. I did look at the rotor and for the amount of cranking it is showing no signs of arcing or the kinds of marks I'm used to seeing on a rotor. I also noted that the spring tab that makes contact with the center contact point on the crown of the rotor is a little loose - I can feel it rock back and forth where I expect it to be tightly riveted down. Sadly I tossed the old cap and rotor last year.

I hear you about "non business stuff". For good or bad, life tends to interfere with our plans.

[Yellow Truck]

Shady, I hear you and was concerned about the light, but we are seeing 100% of the flashes on the coil side, and none on the plug side of the distributor, and we saw no spark on the #5 when we pulled it and set the plug on the intake - to be clear, the intake has a good ground. I pulled the #5 because it is easily accessible and I've been pulling the #1 too much! The plugs are a little black for the early rich start, but they are not gas soaked or fouled.

I'll have my friend bring his Snapon light over tonight.

[Lenz]

Lots of great info here.  I have personally experienced the hole through the center of the rotor, it was subtle but effectively shut down everything but an occasional "pop".  The plugs are another thing.  Don't know if I'm the only one but I have seen an entire set of plugs wash out, that was on a 79 351M Bronco.  They weren't brand new but they "looked" fine.  Did not want to believe it but I swapped in fresh and she fired right up.  One thing's for sure, you've got the steady flashing between the coil and distributor and nearly nothing at the plugs so you've got it cornered anyway, and at least on the surface looks like nothing too expensive either.  Good luck with the rest of the sort out.

[KMcCullah]

How old is your gas? I fought this issue recently. Pump gas with ethanol has a really short life. Especially in the summer time.

[cammerfe]

Plus one on the gas. Tried for two days to get Brother Lon's 427 TP/ '67 Mustang to light off after about two months of setting in the garage. About the 9th or 10th time around of looking for the problem we finally dumped a bit of gas down the carbs---and got immediate fire that promptly died when the splash ran out. Put a pick-up hose from the S-W fuel pumps into a fresh can of gas and all was well!!!

KS

[Yellow Truck]

Plugs are new, only in since the first fire. Gas is 3 weeks old, Shell 91 octane.

I did pick up a new cap and rotor today - cheap thing to try. I will also clean the connection points on the plugs and wires before I put them back on.

[Katz427]

I know it is frustrating btdt. I took my 1954 F100 over to a friend's house for a 1 month storage. I filled it with gas from the Mobil station on my way to his house. A month later I went to retrive it and would not start. We did all the same stuff but no start! My friend put some of the gas in a small coffee can and tried to light it ...Nothing! He could not get a light off. I went and got fresh gas and poured down the carb..Presto, fired right off.  I hope you are as lucky!

[Yellow Truck]

Really? Gas only good for a month? Wow, I have left vehicles for 2 or 3 months and the only problem was the battery. We did spill some gas on the intake because I had not tightened one of the connections and mopped it up. It burnt really nicely.

Well, it rained cats and dogs today and the truck is in the driveway, so didn't get much done. I did pull one of the header gaskets because it was leaking like mad, and I'm sad to say the crush points on the headers miss the top of the intake, and I can't pull them up enough with the header bolts in place to correct. I think I have a nasty bit of grinding in my future to oval out the holes on the headers to let me install them a little higher.