New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...

[jayb]

A 4.25 crank will fit a stock type block. Why would a raised cam tunnel be needed for this combo? This is the reason I thought a spread bore block might be viable with existing heads; less custom parts equals less cost. To me anyway, if you're going to buy an aftermarket block, taking advantage of a redesigned one with offset bores could gain you a lot of cubic inches while being able to utilize all the available aftermarket and stock stuff that is still around, and that is a win/win situation. However, I do see the argument that at this point, on a max effort build, the extra cash outlay for the needed pieces required for the raised cam would be negligible, but it eliminates being able to use stuff that the average racer/street guy already has.

A raised cam tunnel would definitely not be needed in this case.  But I've made the assumption that there would be basically two casting options for the blocks, the standard version, and the spread bore / raised cam version.  If there were to be a spread bore only, or a raised cam only version, I think that special tooling would be required in each case.  Then the tooling cost starts to get prohibitively expensive, the price of the blocks goes up, etc. etc.  I'm not 100% sure about this; I will have to check with the block manufacturer to see if it would be possible to machine a spread bore block for either the raised cam or standard cam version.  If that would be possible, then the only additional cost would be for additional machining programs.  But I don't know if that would work.  Frankly, I would like the idea of a spread bore, standard cam location block from the perspective of the SOHC, because raising the cam tunnel pretty much rules out an SOHC build.  But I'm just happy that the manufacturer is even willing to consider something like this.  It opens up a whole range of possibilities that aren't currently available for us FE guys...

[jayb]

What about..... Tunnel Port stuff!? I know the market would be small for stuff like that. But no one has made that stuff in some time now. Have you given that a thought Jay? I'm sure you have and I know it would be PITA to manufacture that. Just a thought

But other than that. I would like to see some of this trick stuff built. May not be for me but very cool and really put a FE on the map for sure! I like the 460 timing chain set up. Some off the shelf goods are a nice add to a custom block. You really got me thinking about all this.

Hey Wes, you may recall that we talked about this several years ago, and you were the one who suggested to me to spread the bore spacing on an FE block to get more cubic inches.  Look how this has ended up LOL!

On the tunnel port stuff, I have thought about it, but in order to justify tooling and machining costs for a set of heads, I think I need to be convinced that I could sell 100 sets.  I'm not sure that market is there for the tunnel port heads.  Of course, I'm not sure if it is there for the heads I've described here either, which of course is the reason for the post...

[ScotiaFE]

I will take a guess.
Including my block, less than 500 in 10 years.

[fastback 427]

On the tunnel port heads, I believe Dennis at Dsc was was talking of doing a run of a hundred on the other fe forum a little while ago.

[machoneman]

Wow Jay! I'm impressed like all get out at this ambitious project which is a natural extension of your previous work and parts that you designed, built and sold. Thumbs up and best of luck on this wonderful set of ideas!

[cjshaker]

I guess I don't understand the need for special tooling on a spread bore block. Nothing has changed except the need to move the boring bar slightly more for each boring operation. But I'm not a machinist or an engineer, so maybe that's wrong. Or maybe this is a high tech operation with all 8 bores, or 4 at a time, done at once like the big auto manufacturers do?

I really like the idea of a spread bore aluminum block with replaceable liners. The Shelby block is just too damned expensive for my tastes.

One question; what is an "angled" pushrod?

[jayb]

Just to give you an example, when I remachined the bore centers on my Shelby block and moved the bores, I broke through the aluminum bore and into the water jacket area on three of the eight cylinders.  This caused me a lot of trouble.  What you would like is to have sufficient wall thickness on the block to allow the offset boring without breaking into the water jacket.

As described to me by the block manufacturer, in order to ensure this the casting patterns for the cores at the ends of the block would have to be changed, to allow room for the bores to be spread and still have sufficient water jacket at each end of the block.  This would bulge the water jackets out a little at the front and rear of the block.  All mounting surfaces would remain the same though, as I understand it, so the overall length of the block from the bellhousing mounting surface to the water pump and timing cover mounting surface would remain the same.

All I mean by angled pushrod is that the pushrod would be at an angle coming up from the lifter to the rocker, instead of coming straight up like they do on a standard FE.

[jayb]

I will take a guess.
Including my block, less than 500 in 10 years.

I'd be surprised if that many sold; I think selling 20-25 per year would be a reasonable number to shoot for.

I set up the costs and pricing on my FE intake adapter so that if I could sell 100 of them, I could break even on the tooling and manufacturing costs.  Turned out it took me closer to 130 to break even, but I have sold more than that now, so at least I haven't gotten screwed on that deal 

I would try to set the heads up so that I could break even at 50 pairs (100 heads). 

[Ford428CJ]

What about..... Tunnel Port stuff!? I know the market would be small for stuff like that. But no one has made that stuff in some time now. Have you given that a thought Jay? I'm sure you have and I know it would be PITA to manufacture that. Just a thought

But other than that. I would like to see some of this trick stuff built. May not be for me but very cool and really put a FE on the map for sure! I like the 460 timing chain set up. Some off the shelf goods are a nice add to a custom block. You really got me thinking about all this.

Hey Wes, you may recall that we talked about this several years ago, and you were the one who suggested to me to spread the bore spacing on an FE block to get more cubic inches.  Look how this has ended up LOL!

On the tunnel port stuff, I have thought about it, but in order to justify tooling and machining costs for a set of heads, I think I need to be convinced that I could sell 100 sets.  I'm not sure that market is there for the tunnel port heads.  Of course, I'm not sure if it is there for the heads I've described here either, which of course is the reason for the post...

I do remember that convo years ago! Like if it was yesterday Jay. Glad a guy like yourself is actually able to do some cool stuff like that. A 1/4" is nothing really but adds a lot of CI. I really hope to see this happen.

I understand the TP situation for sure. Might be a tough sell for sure. It would be neat to see happen as well. Times are tough and not getting better to do these kinds of things.

I'm waiting to see your heads here....

[Lenz]

Let's say you have a 390 stroker engine already, but want some more cubes.  You buy the offset bore spacing block, and use the 4.7" bore spacing, and a 4.5" bore, and use your existing heads.  With a 4.25" stroke crank you now have a 540" FE, picking up nearly 100 cubes.  You would need the block, a 460 timing chain, a special distributor gear, different pushrods, the timing cover, and custom pistons, all of which would probably be in the neighborhood of $2500 plus the price of the block.  Same heads, same valvetrain, same crank and rods, same everything else.  There are lots of options for using parts you might already have to pick up a lot of cubic inches with that spread bore block.

OK, when it comes to an affordable upgrade for someone that's already running a 390 stroker, this is an interesting proposition.  Of course, "affordable" is a loaded term but in my view this is reasonable.

[Heo]

Just to give you an example, when I remachined the bore centers on my Shelby block and moved the bores, I broke through the aluminum bore and into the water jacket area on three of the eight cylinders.  This caused me a lot of trouble.  What you would like is to have sufficient wall thickness on the block to allow the offset boring without breaking into the water jacket.

As described to me by the block manufacturer, in order to ensure this the casting patterns for the cores at the ends of the block would have to be changed, to allow room for the bores to be spread and still have sufficient water jacket at each end of the block.  This would bulge the water jackets out a little at the front and rear of the block.  All mounting surfaces would remain the same though, as I understand it, so the overall length of the block from the bellhousing mounting surface to the water pump and timing cover mounting surface would remain the same.

All I mean by angled pushrod is that the pushrod would be at an angle coming up from the lifter to the rocker, instead of coming straight up like they do on a standard FE.

I se no problem to machine a block with standard bore centers out of a block cast for the bigger bore centers. If the cylinders are siamesed. you just end upp with thicker front and rear cylinderwalls on the outer cylinders on a std bc block maby you end up with some more maching boring out the cylinders for the lining.
What im saying is i see no  need for casting a special block for standard borecenter just a high or low cam block

[jayb]

You may be right, but these are complex designs and there are often things that you and I wouldn't understand about it.  In any case, though, I agree that if one casting could be used to machine a standard block and a spread bore / raised cam block, it would be very attractive. 

[Heo]

Yes it have to do with how they indicate the casting for machining and things
like that for serial production. But teoreticaly it would be possible just leave
some more material in the cylinders.
More wasted material and maby an extra pass per cylinder boring them out
but for a few hundred blocks.....
I can understand if you make tens or hundred of thousands of blocks that
you cut costs with different castings with minor changes. And if its a big
foundry they probably think in those volumes.
Or maby im completly wrong

[Posi67]

As much as I want an Aluminum block and basically everything else new, I'm finding it harder to justify with age. We can make all the power a sane person needs with the current FE pieces that are available. Certainly, more options and cheaper are attractive but I don't see many young guys falling over themselves to buy FE stuff. The market is going to continue to get smaller IMO and the exotic stuff will be a tough seller.

That said, I applaud your creativity and willingness to take on a lot of challenging projects then share with the FE world. I'd be interested in a std Aluminum block if it was available next week however a year or so down the road, finances and life issues may dictate otherwise. This will be an interesting thread to follow.

[cjshaker]

So when you say "tooling", you're referring to the casting cores? I was picturing the machining tools. The guys who make the casting cores are the true artists here.

My iron SOG block has siamesed cylinders with thick walls, and the water jacket at the ends gets a little narrow. If it were simply offset bored at the numbers discussed here, the outer walls would start to get thin on the end cylinders, so I can see the need for special cores and bulging the ends of the block. You also have to leave enough bore wall to support the liner and avoid the water issue. On an iron block it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but a replaceable liner aluminum block would be different.

Does the Pond block have replaceable liners? I think they have to be bored out if I'm not mistaken.