New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...

[turbohunter]

I've mulled the looks like a duck question over to myself and come to the conclusion that I'm good with it.
Although I respect the heck out of guys that can ( like ss ) make power with mostly stock ish stuff, that ain't me.
Life got to in the way during the middle of my life and I'll never catch up.
So I'm just out to have fun.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Here is the problem.....
sure sure, cheaper block, cool!  Bigger bore, cool!  raised cam tunnel, cool!

Sadly a $20,000 engine just turned into a $50,000 engine.

From my blue collar perspective, I'd rather see that aluminum casting skill making parts for the "Every man"
Sure sure, cast aluminum 427 blocks that is neat.
But.... cast cheap usable SOHC heads, chain covers, etc as well.  How many people have day dreamed about building one of those?  If you could get it to where they were reasonably priced, they'd be selling like hotcakes (I know If I could score a SOHC heads/cams/intake/chain cover for $6k I'd be seriously tightening the belt and saving money, heck I'd start rationing cigarettes likes it's Moscow 1984).  This could help finance the more experimental stuff that would benefit the .001% of racers.

Just my humble point of view.....  either way, good luck, any FE parts is good stuff I say.

[TomP]

This sounds really ambitious. I like the idea.
 On the 4.8" bore space version how would the head castings be able to accommodate both that and the stock bore space? There is not that much water jacket area to be making walls .170" thicker. Would the cam need to be a longer custom one? Main bearings spread apart needing a custom crank?
 If so it'd be better to make it all 4.9" and just be able to use off the shelf 460 cranks. But by then it may make send to just go 5.0" bore space or larger and we could have 824" Cobra Jets ! 

I am not sure the world needs cheap Cammers, it is kind of nice to get to see them because they are sort of exclusive. Excludes paupers like me anyways. I would hate them to become a budget choice for replacing 350's.

[Barry_R]

Another somewhat normal block option would be welcome.  It seems we have more block suppliers than at any time in FE history, yet none of them are able to consistently fill demand (that comment coming form a guy who cannot keep heads in stock should carry some real weight...).  My current supplier simply cannot provide a constant supply when I need it.

The radical heads are a very cool idea - and I have gone over variations on that subject repeatedly with Marcella and a couple others.  Problem there will be market volume.  The Pontiac guys are a great example.  They have a couple really radical alternatives that flat out scream with potential - yet the reported actual sales volumes are amazingly low - far fewer than you might suspect.  I would willingly share our ideas because at this point I can promise that I am not going down that road for a very long time.

[jayb]

Barry, I had planned to get with you, and Blair, at some point before I started any head tooling.  I'm not the guy building all the engines, so I'd want to make sure that the head modifications I'm planning would be something you could work with...

[jayb]

Here is the problem.....
sure sure, cheaper block, cool!  Bigger bore, cool!  raised cam tunnel, cool!

Sadly a $20,000 engine just turned into a $50,000 engine.

From my blue collar perspective, I'd rather see that aluminum casting skill making parts for the "Every man"
Sure sure, cast aluminum 427 blocks that is neat.
But.... cast cheap usable SOHC heads, chain covers, etc as well.  How many people have day dreamed about building one of those?  If you could get it to where they were reasonably priced, they'd be selling like hotcakes (I know If I could score a SOHC heads/cams/intake/chain cover for $6k I'd be seriously tightening the belt and saving money, heck I'd start rationing cigarettes likes it's Moscow 1984).  This could help finance the more experimental stuff that would benefit the .001% of racers.

Just my humble point of view.....  either way, good luck, any FE parts is good stuff I say.

Drew, there is no such thing as "Everyman" new FE parts.  The problem is market size.  If we were running LS engines the market would be 5,000 pairs of heads per year, so the tooling cost gets amortized over a very large number of castings, plus the unit price of a cast and machined part goes way down in volume.  New engine parts for FEs are just going to be a lot more expensive because the market is just not that big.

Also, I think your math is way off; where you got $50K is beyond me.    With a $5K block, a $2500 billet crank, $1500 billet rods, and $1500 custom pistons, plus rings and bearings, you'd have your 632" short block for $11K.  Heads and intake as described in my original post, let's say the expensive setup at $5500.  Add rocker shafts, exhaust rockers, timing cover, timing set, nice roller cam and valve train, oil pump and pan, etc., plus machine work, you'd have a $21K engine that might make 1000 HP.  Sure, that's more than a 1000 HP big block Chevrolet would cost to put together, but I think that's probably a lot cheaper than making that kind of power with an FE using parts that are available now. 

I think these parts would be an excellent value proposition compared to what's out there now.  A cheaper block is good, right?  A cylinder head with modern architecture for the same price as the ones that are available now would also be good, right?  I don't get your complaints - Jay

[jayb]

This sounds really ambitious. I like the idea.
 On the 4.8" bore space version how would the head castings be able to accommodate both that and the stock bore space? There is not that much water jacket area to be making walls .170" thicker. Would the cam need to be a longer custom one? Main bearings spread apart needing a custom crank?
 If so it'd be better to make it all 4.9" and just be able to use off the shelf 460 cranks. But by then it may make send to just go 5.0" bore space or larger and we could have 824" Cobra Jets ! 

I am not sure the world needs cheap Cammers, it is kind of nice to get to see them because they are sort of exclusive. Excludes paupers like me anyways. I would hate them to become a budget choice for replacing 350's.

Tom, you have no idea how ambitious this would end up being LOL!

The head casting design I have could be machined for either stock bore spacing or the spread bore spacing.  When you start doing the math, its not that big of a difference.  To go to a 4.8" bore spacing, you are increasing spacing by 0.170".  So, bores 2, 3, 6, and 7 each have to move towards the ends of the block by 0.085", and bores 1, 4, 5, and 8 have to move towards the ends by 0.255".  So, worst case move is about a quarter inch.  Not that big of a deal.  Its not a problem for my head design, and the block manufacturer thinks this is no problem if the water jacket cores are designed correctly.

Cams would be stock FE cams.  Lifters would be stock FE lifters.  Pushrods would be custom, and some of them would be angled.  As far as that goes I'm thinking so what, angled pushrods are the norm for canted valve blocks, and even inline valve engines like small block Mopars.  And custom pushrods are not that expensive, maybe $300 for a set. 

Cranks would use the standard FE spacing.  On the outside cylinders, the center of the piston would be offset from the rod by 0.255", as compared to how they are now.  That's over a 4.6" bore, and I don't think it would be a problem.  It hasn't been a problem on my spread bore SOHC, although the offset at the outside cylinders is only 0.105" on that engine.  A custom rod might be able to address some of that offset anyway.

Basically, most of the stock FE stuff would fit as is.

[fekbmax]

I just put $100 bucks in my piggy bank. Gonna start saving now..

[cjshaker]

Your big stroker SOHC has a billet crank and rods, which goes WAY beyond what most people would invest. I think that is the only way to get the rotating weight down enough, using scalloped counterweights, hollowed throws etc, to make a stroker that big, live a decent life. No bracket racer or street guy is going to spend that kind of cash unless he's got a no cash limit lifestyle. There are very few of those types. Just my opinion, but this sort of stuff is aimed at Pro Mod type of racing, and none of those guys would touch an FE because there are better engines to make the power. With all the specialty stuff needed for a raised deck, spread bore, raised cam tunnel block, I'd guess that it would kill the vast majority of sales.

A decently priced, stock type block that is AVAILABLE, on the other hand, would be a good seller. The fact that BBM sold out so quickly proves that. It's insanely frustrating that there are no less than FOUR FE block producers, yet no blocks are readily available. For all the promises made by BBM to support the FE community, they were available for what, a few months, then nothing? Not slamming BBM, they made a great product that is desperately needed. The key word there though is made...past tense. Now we're all back to square one with no word on future production.

I do like the idea of a minimally spread bore block, one that can be used with current aftermarket heads. A set of Pro Ports could be offset machined to work with something like that, but you'd still need, at a minimum, a T&D Race system with offset rockers/lifters to work around the ports for it to be optimal and worth the effort. Still, that would have potential and be something that guys could work with without a 100% custom top end.

A radical head might be something that would sell, but also to a limited audience. A head that could have the ports raised with a better angle of entry, much like a tunnelport WITHOUT the pushrod going through the middle of the port, would be cool. It would also require a special intake though, not to mention some fancy thinking on lifter placement and cam design. I'm not even sure if that's possible given the placement of the cam bearing supports. Lots of people are removing shock towers now, so the raised exhaust port is less and less of an issue with many people.

[jayb]

OK Doug, so let's think about this a different way.  Let's say you have a 390 stroker engine already, but want some more cubes.  You buy the offset bore spacing block, and use the 4.7" bore spacing, and a 4.5" bore, and use your existing heads.  With a 4.25" stroke crank you now have a 540" FE, picking up nearly 100 cubes.  You would need the block, a 460 timing chain, a special distributor gear, different pushrods, the timing cover, and custom pistons, all of which would probably be in the neighborhood of $2500 plus the price of the block.  Same heads, same valvetrain, same crank and rods, same everything else.  There are lots of options for using parts you might already have to pick up a lot of cubic inches with that spread bore block.

By the way, I think your concern about reciprocating assembly weight is misplaced.  The 4.60" crank in my 585" SOHC weighs 68 pounds; it is HEAVY.  The rods aren't lightweight either, and the pistons are pretty heavy due to the dome.  I was running 7700 RPM through the traps at Drag Week last year, and with all the abuse that crank has taken over the years, it is still rock solid.  On the other hand, one engine explosion with my 46 pound 4.500" Scat billet crank, with all the lightening and scalloping done to that one, and it is cracked and now junk.  I won't ever get a crank lightened like that again...

[FElony]

Beyond whatever cost increases there are in building bigger engines with more power, where I see a problem is the cost associated in building a car to take it. As it is, warmed-over OEM-style engines already exceed the ability of the classic chassis to put the grunt to the asphalt, even with typical traction aids and frame stiffeners. Antiquated is the operating term here. All-new custom chassis are going be necessary, and at that point you are creating a different segment of the hobby. There's no point to look "stock appearing" if everything else is totally tubular, dude.

The only piece on the list I'm even remotely interested is a cost-effective, lightweight block. With that, I'd stick a stock 3.78 crank in it and build a winder that hopefully won't jettison me off the road every time I tickle the throttle.

[jayb]

On the raised cam tunnel version, would the rotating kit be all custom- read high dollar- or would there be a more cost effective option? I'd love to have a 632 but if the rotating kit is 6000$ plus  it might be hard to justify the added cost.

If you wanted to take advantage of the raised cam tunnel I think you would have to go full custom.  But, if you went for example with the spread bore block and used a 4.375" stroke crank and rods that were already available, the only significant cost would be the custom pistons.  4.50" bore and 4.375" stroke is 556 cubic inches, and 4.60" bore with 4.375" stroke is 582 cubic inches.  Also maybe if the block became available Scat or somebody might make a less expensive 4.75" crank available at some point.  One can always hope 

[cjshaker]

OK Doug, so let's think about this a different way.  Let's say you have a 390 stroker engine already, but want some more cubes.  You buy the offset bore spacing block, and use the 4.7" bore spacing, and a 4.5" bore, and use your existing heads.  With a 4.25" stroke crank you now have a 540" FE, picking up nearly 100 cubes.  You would need the block, a 460 timing chain, a special distributor gear, different pushrods, the timing cover, and custom pistons, all of which would probably be in the neighborhood of $2500 plus the price of the block.  Same heads, same valvetrain, same crank and rods, same everything else.  There are lots of options for using parts you might already have to pick up a lot of cubic inches with that spread bore block.

A 4.25 crank will fit a stock type block. Why would a raised cam tunnel be needed for this combo? This is the reason I thought a spread bore block might be viable with existing heads; less custom parts equals less cost. To me anyway, if you're going to buy an aftermarket block, taking advantage of a redesigned one with offset bores could gain you a lot of cubic inches while being able to utilize all the available aftermarket and stock stuff that is still around, and that is a win/win situation. However, I do see the argument that at this point, on a max effort build, the extra cash outlay for the needed pieces required for the raised cam would be negligible, but it eliminates being able to use stuff that the average racer/street guy already has.

By the way, I think your concern about reciprocating assembly weight is misplaced.  The 4.60" crank in my 585" SOHC weighs 68 pounds; it is HEAVY.  The rods aren't lightweight either, and the pistons are pretty heavy due to the dome.  I was running 7700 RPM through the traps at Drag Week last year, and with all the abuse that crank has taken over the years, it is still rock solid.  On the other hand, one engine explosion with my 46 pound 4.500" Scat billet crank, with all the lightening and scalloping done to that one, and it is cracked and now junk.  I won't ever get a crank lightened like that again...

Just my feelings, but if I were going billet, Scat would not be my first choice. Still, it's hard to blame the crank when it wasn't the piece that failed.
My stock 3.78" steel crank weighs about 7 pounds more than your 4.60" crank, so I would consider your SOHC crank fairly light. However, adding another .150" to your crank would make it heavier, and weight/long stroke does not like high RPMs. Not to mention the increased side loading. I think trying to turn those RPMs with the increased stroke would lead to lots of reliability and maintenance issues unless serious work were given to the entire reciprocating assembly as well as the bottom end of the block. Thick main webbing and special caps may allow 4 down bolts, or splayed bolts, which would be much better than the 2 in the FE design. The Shelby block overcomes this shortcoming with the 4 crossbolts. Even then, regular tear downs, inspections and mag or X-rays are the norm for people pushing strokes and RPMs to the limits that are being discussed here. I'm only talking about max effort builds because anybody that's building an FE for the street would likely not be interested in this sort of thing unless they had buckets of cash to throw around.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for seeing extreme FE builds of any kind, but we're talking about viability for sales, and I just don't think it's there for the extreme end of this. I wouldn't mind being wrong about that though 

[ScotiaFE]

It has been about 10 years since Barry R built the Hot Rod mag Genesis FE.
How many blocks have been cast since that time?
I'm sure some people would be surprised at how many have actually been cast.
The regular stuff will sell out in no time.
The odd ball stuff, well lots of odd ball stuff still sitting on shelves.
I'm still saving up for the water pump adapters. 

[Ford428CJ]

What about..... Tunnel Port stuff!? I know the market would be small for stuff like that. But no one has made that stuff in some time now. Have you given that a thought Jay? I'm sure you have and I know it would be PITA to manufacture that. Just a thought

But other than that. I would like to see some of this trick stuff built. May not be for me but very cool and really put a FE on the map for sure! I like the 460 timing chain set up. Some off the shelf goods are a nice add to a custom block. You really got me thinking about all this.