Author Topic: Carb swappin  (Read 13710 times)

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Drew Pojedinec

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Carb swappin
« on: May 06, 2014, 10:08:41 AM »
I'm detailing my madness here just so I have a record of everything done.

Alright, so here is the situation.  My 1976 F100 has a  .030 over 390, 3.00:1 gears, RV type cam, of unknown low compression (runs on regular), Edelbrock performer rpm, with a QF 735cfm SS carb on top.  I rebuilt the c6 a little while back with a 500hp broader performance kit.  Sporty lil truck at 3800lbs.  I'd wager it has a maximum of 300hp, tho this is speculation I don't really have a basis for any sort of number.  Stock D2 heads, long tube headers, 2.25 exhaust with 12inch long glasspacks.  Stockish converter, etc.

The Truck in question:



The usage for this truck has gone from fun street rod to highway flier.  This is partially due to getting my 63.5 Galaxie on the road.  The Galaxie has a AED double pumper which despite my best efforts still drinks too much fuel and isn't as snappy off the line as I'd like.  It is a very very good carb without a doubt but I think the QF 735cfm I have on the truck would be a better carb on this car.

Due to my new usage of my truck as a strictly highway driver and around town beater, I was going to move toward the direction of fuel economy instead of high performance.
A little while ago I decided I'd find some old Holley and toss it on the truck, move the QF to the car and sell off the AED carb.  Randy Millard listed a Holley 4010 600cfm carb on the FE forums May 2nd, I snagged it for I think $75 shipped.  Autolite and Holley 4010 carbs have often been touted as a fuel economy type carburetor so this seemed like a fun little experiment, but when asked the difference must folks shrug and don't have realistic numbers.

My run:
I drive from my home to the airport to go to work.  I work 28on and 14 off, so I drive exactly 70 miles to the airport, disconnect the battery and leave the truck for 28 days.  I come home, get her fired up and drive the exact same route.
I fuel up before leaving, and I fuel up when I am on the way home at a station that is .5 miles from my house.  I have been making this run 8 times a year for the last 7 years.  I use exactly the same gas station for all fill ups.  It runs 87 octane E10.
Seems like a perfect way to record fuel economy under the exact same conditions, with the exception of weather, which obviously cannot be controlled.
Currently fuel is $3.60 a gallon, so we'll use that as our constant even if fuel cost changes.
This means going to work and coming back I spend $44.21 per trip.  I do this 8 times a year which costs $353.68
If I can get 15mpg with this experiment I stand to save at least $90 a year on just this run.

I average 11.4mpg on this run.  It is south georgia highways, which are just flat straight 2 lane roads for 20 miles at a time, you'll go through a tiny town of one stop sign twice on this run.  I drive 65-70mph and the engine spins 2350-2500 for the duration.

Carb as received:



I always loved the design idea of the Autolite carburetors, but it seemed they were always too small, and specific parts like jets were an issue



Accelerator pump needle is different, has a plunger that goes into a bolt with tiny holes.  This one was totally plugged up.



The cool thing about this 4010 compared to the 4150 style, is honestly even after sitting for countless years, I *could* have taken this carb apart and cleaned it out without a rebuild kit.  Aside from being dirty, I got everything loose with only tearing one gasket (which I could have made).  The power valve tested good, the vac secondary canister held vacuum without leakage for 10 minutes, etc etc.  I considered not buying a kit (as it was $40) and was just going to replace the needle valves.  I called around locally and no one has carb parts on the shelf, I looked on summit racing, and a set of needle valves was $20-$30 so I decided to just get the kit anyway.  The needle valves actually sealed and looked good, but I just didn't want to risk that they were made prior to the ethanol craze.  An overflowing carb isn't much fun at 2am on the way to the airport.  Either way, it is cool that I didn't NEED to buy a kit.



The fancy annular boosters:



Being a secondary vac carb, the boosters didn't have a shooter for the accel pump.  It is replaced by a solid screw and no nozzles are in the holes.  By the looks of it, this is the same as a mechanical secondary carb, same casting I mean... a lil drill work and some spare parts could most likely make it one.
Jets were frozen badly in the body.  It even ruined my fancy holley Jet tool which now resides in the trash.  I ended up soaking everything in pb blaster for a few hours.  The body was rinsed out and a soldering gun was set in each jet for a bit.  I got all four jets out, but they are not usable.  The 4010 had 67jets in the mains and 78 in the secondaries.

Issues I have with the Holley vs the Quickfuel:
-Cannot change accelerator pump shot nozzle
-Cannot change airbleeds
-generally not adjustable in really any manner other than jets, pump diagram size, secondary spring, pump cam.

I do like that this takes holley parts that we've all got on the shelf, no specific Autolite parts.  The issues I have above I believe have been addressed in the Summit version of this carb.  I also love the design of the Autolite/4010 in that aside from accelerator pump and power valve cover, nothing else is below the fuel line that can leak.  I also like the idea for a strictly street car of having annular boosters, I hope this equates to better low speed power and economy.

The kit should be here before the weekend and I hope to get the initial tuning done before I go to work on the 14th.
I'll repost my fuel records in 5 weeks.

Any thoughts and/or comments are welcome.

Thanks
Drew
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 09:03:49 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

jayb

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2014, 10:38:22 AM »
This will be a fun experiment.  You don't have a wideband O2 sensor, do you?  It would be cool to install one of those and see where you are with respect to actual A/F...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 10:42:26 AM »
Yeah, I been meaning to get one.... sadly not at the moment so I'll just tune it as best I can by trial and error like I normally do (which means install everything, go drive around see how I like it, make adjustments, go drive around, etc).  I only have about 4 days to get it setup before I leave, so I think I'll have plenty of time.  Most likely toss the QF under the seat just in case :P  Being late to work typically makes the guy that has been stuck there 28 days pretty mad :-)

Yeah, I came up with the idea since I do the exact same route so often and I always heard "ohh this Autolite is great on gas"  well lets see what it really looks like after a few trips, I suspect it'll be pretty obvious if there is any difference.

machoneman

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 11:30:54 AM »
Hey cool!

Funny that many Holley fans (like me) had a low regard for the Autolite and Quadrajet carbs of yore, strictly for performance reasons. Yet your carb and even the Quadrajet are great choices for maximum fuel economy.  I was trying to think of the last car I ever saw with an OEM dash mounted vacuum gauge right from the factory. Pretty sure it was a neighbor's 1962 Chevy Impala with the now rare bubble rear window. Anyway, 'driving' by a vacuum gauge could help you out as well. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobil_Economy_Run
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 11:34:37 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 12:23:10 PM »
Quote
Funny that many Holley fans (like me) had a low regard for the Autolite and Quadrajet carbs of yore, strictly for performance reasons.
Right on....  But on a stockish 390 that never sees the far side of 4,000 rpm, I have a theory that the annular boosters will actually provide better distribution equating to more power, so the age old "these aren't performance carbs" mantra might be incorrect in this scenario.  This isn't the kinda thing that a dyno is equipt to measure but any educated posterior is...

well like it or not, admit it or not, there are a lot of us here that have an FE vehicle that we want to think is a performance engine that isn't gonna ever be :P
I'll be using a vac gauge for initial testing, this will also help me see if under WOT I'm running any restriction as this might be an issue with a 600cfm carb on a 390.  Plus I'll need to retune the Distributor vac advance for this particular scenario.

Funny you mention the quadrajet, I've got two of them on the shop counter I'm giving to Wes, if my intake manifold allowed the use of them, I'd probably rebuild one of them and toss it on as well just for fun.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 12:24:56 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

drdano

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 11:26:20 AM »
Funny you mention the quadrajet, I've got two of them on the shop counter I'm giving to Wes, if my intake manifold allowed the use of them, I'd probably rebuild one of them and toss it on as well just for fun.

You can send any Qjets to me, I'll take them!   ;D  I love them, been running them on my FE's for a long time.  I think they're great.
 

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 03:49:15 PM »
I have them boxed up with Wes Adam's address on them.
I've got these two old fellas that hang around my shop.  They kinda like to see what I'm working on, and talk about old cars, etc.  Anyway they randomly drop stuff off since I'm into cars.  These two rough quadrajets were in a box when I came home.  I really don't have any use for them, I was hoping wes could rebuild them and maybe make a few bucks reselling them.  I remember being a small business owner, and I dunno if it's his case, but I ALWAYS needed anything I could get to turn a few bucks.
I just don't need stuff I don't have a use for now.

I've got a torqueflight 727 transmission sitting in the corner if ya need one :P

Since we are on the subject tho, how to the Qjets work out on the FE?  I've never run one.

drdano

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2014, 10:47:47 AM »
The adapter plate I use is just a standard square-bore to spread-bore adapter flipped upside down.  I'd really like to find a phenolic version of the adapter.  I've run them as a regular 4-hole, modified blended 4-hole, open spacer and currently a 4-hole cut and smoothed out into a 2-hole'r.  On my '62 Galaxie wagon with it's stock 390 I had a stock 750 qjet.  Once it was all dialed in and set up, it was very good throttle response wise.  Yes, any vacuum secondary carb will never be as good as a mechanical just by design, but I'd say it was super close to the autolite that was on there from the factory.  However, given it has small primaries and monster secondaries, they can be set up to to get very surprisingly good mileage which is something I couldn't get from the autolite.  I averaged 16mpg with a C6 auto in a 4600lb barge with 4 adults in the car and who knows how much gear and booze for a few days at Bonneville.  Now on my warm 428 I have a Dean Oliver modified 800 Qjet and so far it's been a bolt-on and jet-change affair out of the box from him.  I have an LM-2 AFR computer on board that I used to tune it and it's behaved exactly as needed when a change was done.  Very happy with it.  I haven't had enough road trip time to see the mileage over a long distance, but my last trip averaged 14mpg with that motor and I was flogging it pretty good in spots.  The biggest downside is the adapter plate possibly creating hood clearance issues and getting flack from friends about crossbreeding your car with "chevy parts". Usually that goes away once they see past the "quadrabog" misconceptions and see what it can do in real life.  :)

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2014, 11:49:58 AM »
Well well well.  took my son camping and had to put this all on hold for a few days.
While rebuilding it, noticed something... wish I'd noticed it prior to buying a kit :-)

on the accelerator pump the mount is cracked:



The screw hole was stripped out on that corner as well, probably from the crack making it a lil different angle.  I tapped the hole and get the accel pump screw to hold sufficiently.

Secondary side is cracked even worse:



I'd suspect overtightening of the carb studs at some point, or not using the thick fiber gasket that comes with these carbs.
I *might* try to install the carb anyway and just silicone the crack so there isn't a vacuum leak, but I suspect this is a $100 experiment that is about to end up in the trash.  Or plan B would involve some drilling and JB weld.

I'll post more when I can work on this all more.

Drew
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 12:06:27 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

jayb

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2014, 02:48:59 PM »
JB Weld is the solution...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2014, 07:21:00 AM »
Yeah, I was gonna do that.
Wes talked me into welding, or well technically brazing them.
I'll be drilling holes and seeing what I can do with it.

Tho for future reference I've used JB weld in industrial environments and the stuff is magic.....

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 11:38:44 AM »
Well, got her put together, the fuel log connections were a leaky beast, but otherwise i had the floats and all that set perfectly.  shake the truck a little and fuel dribbles out the holes.

Sadly my large blue stock air cleaner didn't fit due to the fuel log and the angle it leaves the carb so I had to pick up the $29 special... it looks goofy but it's alright.

Previously with my QF I had 20 inches of vacuum steady, I have 22inches with this Autolite 4010, which is odd.  Perhaps I'm just able to keep the primaries shut a little more.

Idle mixture was best at exactly 1.25 turns out.  I didn't really care for the way the idle mixture screws are in the main body, they were really loose and could be turned by hand easily.  I ended up installing washers so the spring was under more tension.  The carb itself is also made from not so tuff stuff.... 4 screws were stripped out and needed to be addressed.

Only issue/question I am still thinking on is this.
There sure sounds like there is a vacuum leak.  I can hear the hissing while it is idling.  Riding around the block it was obvious as well,  Cracking the throttle makes it go away a little bit.
I went through all the typical stuff, ran my finger over everything looking for a change in sound.... nothing
Sprayed everything down with water.... nothing
took an unlit propane torch and went around.... nothing
Plugged all vac sources: pcv, trans line, distributor line, etc.. nothing

I remembered autolite carbs didn't always work well on stock gaskets, but this one has the proper gaskets in use, running my finger at the base of the carb provided no change.
I'm not using the choke and there is a hole there, but I have it plugged.
I figured the base would be a lil off due to the cracked parts, but it shows itself to be flat and spraying water makes no change so......

here have a listen:

http://s68.photobucket.com/user/DeepRootsNursery/media/MVI_0243_zps991ea3a7.mp4.html

Well, I'm running 22inches of vacuum at idle, if there is a leak it must be very small.
On my drive around the block, everything works as it should and to be honest, off idle feels a little bit zippier.
Back to messing around.

Dp
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 11:40:52 AM by Drew Pojedinec »

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 11:52:14 AM »
fuel log still leaks.
I'm starting to wonder if the bad press for the 4010 is for a good reason :-)

Heo

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 11:59:18 AM »
We had that hissing on an Olds Engine in a Chevy work truck(ex diesel thats why the Olds Engine).
After the boss swaped carb to a Holly like that. It was a chanel in the baseplate that
reached just outside the sealing area of the intake.
It was in the front of the carb as i remember it
I found it when a rag i had on the intake got sucked in there and the sound changed



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

Heo

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 12:25:38 PM »
fuel log still leaks.
I'm starting to wonder if the bad press for the 4010 is for a good reason :-)
I have used autolite 4100s without problems like mount them and forget them
But this holey on the work truck........Well my boss who was lets say ....wery
economical minded to put it nicely. After 8 months of leaking, flooding,stalling,etc etc removed
this carb from the intake with a sledgehammer and bought a brand new Holley
1850 ;D ;D ;D
As i remember it it was of some wery soft alloy the treads stripped the top got distorted
by repeted dissasemblys..But on the other hand my boss,s favourite tool was a sledgehammer ::) ::)



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

machoneman

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2014, 12:52:21 PM »
Here's a great post with pics of a Ford carb spacer and how this one (and others) can trip up the unsuspecting. The base on the carb's bottom doesn't line up with some intakes leading to a massive vacuum leak...which may not be hard to find, but also a small leak, harder to detect.   

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417/message/1229625787/FYI-Ford+Carb+spacers+%26amp%3B+narrow+pad+intakes

We had that hissing on an Olds Engine in a Chevy work truck(ex diesel thats why the Olds Engine).
After the boss swaped carb to a Holly like that. It was a chanel in the baseplate that
reached just outside the sealing area of the intake.
It was in the front of the carb as i remember it
I found it when a rag i had on the intake got sucked in there and the sound changed
Bob Maag

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2014, 03:01:06 PM »
well, have an edelbrock performer rpm, then a gasket and a 3/4 inch spacer, then a gasket and ford/holley 1/4inch thick insulator/gasket.
Spraying water on that doesn't make a change....
I just had shop visitors so I can get back to messing with it now :P

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2014, 05:31:10 PM »
Took carb off, test fit everything on the bench, no overhanging problems (ie, the gaskets and all I'm using aren't the problem as far as I can tell).  Also siliconed the one carb stud into the manifold (performer rpm has one stud that is threaded into an intake runner).  Regreased and installed everything, got everything leak free.  Ran around town for a bit and some on the highway, more responsive in most light throttle applications.

Whistling persists tho is pretty minor, still have 22inches of vac, so....  It increases very slightly if I open the throttle a little and totally goes away if the throttle is opened more so I'm going to chalk this up to my overly sensitive hearing (the neighbor can't really hear it) and the air moving over the primary butterflies.  If I was getting 18inches or something of vacuum I'd be concerned, but I don't see how I can be getting 22inches with a leak.

Water temps are the same as before, and IR heat gun on each header doesn't show any tube being a ton hotter than the others so I'm gonna ride with it like this and call it good.
As an experiment I might try opening/closing the secondaries and adjusting the primaries to see if the pitch of whistling changes.  Getting more confident about the 70 mile trip thursday at 2:30am :P 

Heo

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2014, 05:44:56 PM »
That Olds 350 probably had a quadrajet intake with some
spacer of unknown origin when i Think about it.
Anyway it was a small leak made a hissing sound and
he could not get the idle down low enough
Then we found the leak and the carb worked fine for a while,
And the fuel consumption got alot better than the worn out quadrajet
But it started to leak fuel and he take it apart and made things
worse the more he worked on it ::)but as i said his favourite
tool was the sledge hammer ::) ::)
And he used it to remove most of the carb from the intake ;D ;D ;D



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 07:42:26 PM »
  The carb itself is also made from not so tuff stuff.... 4 screws were stripped out and needed to be addressed.

Newer Holleys seem to be made from butter!

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2014, 09:07:00 PM »
Well, despite the teething problems, I drove to the airport this morning, truck ran great.  I will not drive back and refuel until I go home in a month, but looking at the crappy gas gauge, it appears I used less fuel.

Question to the masses:
Wideband, whats the preference, Innovate LC1 or AEM Uego?
I don't really need datalogging, this would be more something I could use just to fine tune carburetors.  I'm leaning toward the AEM.

jayb

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 11:38:42 PM »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

KMcCullah

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2014, 11:25:52 AM »
I installed the LC1 on my truck 2 years ago and it works good. And since the collectors on my headers were rusted so thin, I used a clamp on o2 sensor bung.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-2355-300

The LC1 has a control that's separate from the gauge that I mounted under the truck. I like the unit in the link that jay posted because it appears to be a all-in-one deal.
Kevin McCullah


Drew Pojedinec

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12.6mpg, up 1.2mpg
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2014, 07:58:07 AM »
Well, Thursday I got up at 6pm and worked until 5am when I drove from a shipyard to Norfolk airport....
7am flight to atlanta, 9:50am flight to valdosta, landed got the old Truck fired up, drove the 70 miles home, fueled up, sat down for 20 minutes.  Probably got home around 1pm.
The wife and her sister rented a house on the beach, they were all "Very tired" so I loaded the Explorer and I drove them 3 hours to the beach.  Got there around 5pm.  Beach lifestyle rejuvenated me and so I spent until Friday midnight drinking beer and walking in the sand....  finally sat down this morning to post another report.

Truck started easier with this style carb than with a traditional holley. 
Truck still feels more responsive off idle and smoother at cruise.

Fueled up and got 12.6mpg, an improvement from the 11.4mpg with the QF 735cfm.  I honestly expected more, but it seems a good start.
I only have a few days off, going back to work next Sunday for another 35 days!!!
I intend to do another 140 mile run to and from the airport so I can average the two, I never trust one record as it could be a fluke a lil one way or the other.
After I do this run I'll install an LC1 and try to fine tune the holley and QF and do the runs again with both of them.  I'll post again in another 1.5 months :P
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 07:59:38 AM by Drew Pojedinec »

Ford428CJ

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2014, 09:58:43 AM »
Glad you picked up the carb Drew! Like I said, if you dont like it... I'll buy it from you! To fix your crack... This is what I would use!

US Forge  p/n 02532 Scroll to the near bottom of the link~

http://us-forge.com/Products/Welding/Electrodes.htm
Wes Adams FORD428CJ 
Hillside Auto- Custom Curved, Blueprinted Distributors
03 F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.0 and 35's
64 Falcon 428FE
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with 428FE

Ford428CJ

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2014, 10:09:51 AM »
  The carb itself is also made from not so tuff stuff.... 4 screws were stripped out and needed to be addressed.

Newer Holleys seem to be made from butter!

 Not the shoe box carbs.... But the Holleys are made out of Pot Aluminum. They melt at 650 degrees or so..... I have brazed them before but not easy thing to do.... New or old.... Doesnt really matter
Wes Adams FORD428CJ 
Hillside Auto- Custom Curved, Blueprinted Distributors
03 F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.0 and 35's
64 Falcon 428FE
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with 428FE

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carb swappin
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2014, 12:00:35 PM »
Right on Wes.
I was *going* to use muggy weld, but due to the hurry I was in to get it installed and fired up before I left, I used JB weld.
If I decide to keep it long term after this little experiment I will certainly grind off the epoxy and braze it for a more permanent repair.

At the moment I'm not blown away with the economy improvements.... I'll do another run, then try getting the LC1 hooked up and figure out what I can do to get the QF 735 and also the Holley dialed in as perfectly as I can.

I figure it'll be another 6 months before all the info is collected and I have a full idea of what I can do.... tho at the moment I'm thinking with the adjustability of the QF it might still come out on top.  Ideally getting a Vac secondary QF with annular boosters in the 650cfm range would probably net the best results.  Guess we'll see.