How much do I really want?

[Cord]

Car is a 1966 Country Sedan. It has not been restored, just really well maintained. Most mechanical items have been touched, but only to keep it stock.  Engine, trans, rear end have all been rebuilt and are functioning great.  Yet, it’s a boring car to drive so I find myself dreaming... 

I’ve been working on a build list that I can go shopping off of. I’ve been working on it for over a year and it’s getting detailed enough that I’m now entering part numbers. My plan is to buy a little hear and there until I have enough parts to make a major change.

This is my first real classic car and I really enjoy it. The cars primary use is a distance cruiser. We’ve been jumping it and going for Sunday drives, putting on a couple hundred miles each time.  I’d like to Hot Rod power tour and maybe run it on a auto cross course. Drag racing doesn’t interest me too greatly.  For this reason I want reliability and mileage over raw max power.

I’ve polled a few and they’re reporting 450-500 being a good hp target. I’ve driven 450hp late model stuff and it’s been ok, but not as thrilling as I’d expect. I had a p-pump Cummins that put down 435/880. Truck was fun to drive, but it was slow, a pain to shift and I hated the turbo lag. But you get that truck with 5,000lb behind it and it was a joy to run through the Smokies at 80mph!  I now have a Duramax that’s tuned and should make 520 at the wheels. Truck is quick and pulls hard, but I don’t know if I’d call it fast.  It’s certainly more driver friendly than the Cummins was.

When I compare my experience to the recommended hp range of 450-500 I see a disparity. For this reason I find myself lusting for more, more, more!  The question is just how much do I really want? 

I’ve read through most of the engine builds (Thanks Brett!) and pulled two that really peaked my interest: http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ob235h4rigf5qcnbh4e6438b40&topic=9019.0 and http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2809.0. I’m wondering which would be a better fit for my goal?  I have to admit that 620lbft is sure tempting. I could really see myself short shifting that engine and cruising it. But are they still too much?  Too radical, need premium fuel, need constant valve adjustments to stay in peak forum?  None of that is what I’d want. Daily drive ability is one piece of data that’s missing from the build lists.  I’m not looking for a Yes or No response, but I’m seeking a more in depth response that’ll come someone with more experience than I. So the question bears repeating; just how much power do I really want?

[chilly460]

I'm building a 462" at the moment that hits many of the same things you're trying to do.  A lot of it will come down to how much gear you're going with, and what transmission.  I run a TKO500 with 4.10 gear in my Mercury, which nets out at 2200rpm @ 70mph.  A drive it on highways and 60mph secondary roads a lot, so my build is dictated by this.  The cam profile has to be able to handle 1800rpm in overdrive without balking.  That said, I do drive it hard and with the 4.10s I like to have RPM flexibility...in other words have my cake and eat it too.  My car weighs 4070lbs, I'd assume your car would be heavier being a wagon.   I don't really consider this that heavy if you look at modern vehicle weights, but if going with a mild gear it will take some thought.  Trans combo with the deep first gear and cam means I can get away with quite a bit of cam if desired. 

My current engine in this combo is a 390 with a 224/232* cam, and it easily pulls the car at 1800rpm and pulls pretty well to 5800rpm with BBM heads.  The key is having good flowing heads so you can make the HP goal without requiring a lot of duration on the cam. 

I think the builds you're showing are perfect for the combo, and similar to what I'm building.  I'll be going with a 235/239* cam, which should scale well from what I have considering the increase in displacement.  The TFS heads are small cross section and will give a lot of lowend, but easily support the displacement and rpm I'm looking for, and will do it with relatively mild cam requirements. 

As far as being radical at these levels, I don't think so at all.   My 390 has a decent idle, but beyond that it's a baby around town, no issues at all shifting it at 2500rpm and just puttering around town.  Knock on wood, no issues with the engine at all minus a few annoying leaks.  If you want to run 87oct, again I'd think it's just a matter of paying attention to quench distance, making sure compression is reasonable, and making sure the cam matches the combo.  I run a true 9.2:1 compresson with the 224* and it runs fine on 87 even though I'm at .055 on quench which isn't optimal (I do run 93 quite a bit, but if I'm taking a long trip I just run 87).  Not sure where you live but I'd pay attention to choke and cold start performance if it's a true daily driver.  I don't run a heat crossover and have a manual choke, my 390 has always been pretty cold natured.  It starts fine in 30* weather but takes quite a bit of fiddling to keep running, and takes quite awhile to really warm up and run well....that impacts the street ability much more than the rest of the combo IMO

[jayb]

You've given a really open-ended question that can't easily be answered.  Here are a couple of thoughts, though:

- If you're not willing to run premium fuel in your engine, keep it mostly stock

- Constantly adjusting the valvetrain is a myth, even with a pretty radical cam.  New valvetrain parts don't need to be constantly adjusted, probably not even once a year.

- A centrifugal supercharger is the easiest way to make big torque with good street manners.  In a heavy car with a big engine compartment like yours, it wouldn't be a difficult installation, and it would get that heavy car moving.

- An overdrive or O/D trans like the Tremec would allow you to run a deeper rear end gear, which would help a lot, maybe more than anything else.

- As soon as you upgrade the engine to make a bunch of power, figure on upgrading the trans and rear end also.

If it was my car I'd put in a Vortech V7 supercharger at about 8 pounds of boost, a very mild hydraulic roller cam, either the Tremec trans or a C4 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, and 3.91 gears.  Figure on about 450 foot pounds of torque and 400 HP naturally aspirated, and 650 foot pounds of torque and 600 HP with the supercharger.

[CV355]

The "More More More" desire for HP tapers off for street use but never seems to diminish at the track.  If this is meant to be a street car, and no drag racing, I would recommend keeping it in the 450-500hp range.  That's just the "golden zone" recipe for a fun car that you can bomb around in, not feel guilty, and stay out of trouble for the most part.

When you start getting into 600, 700, 800+ territory, the street manners often suffer to some degree.  When a slight bark to the throttle can send you sideways and you're already running the fattest, stickiest drag radials, you know it's getting to be a bit much.  You find that you don't really want to drive it as much.  That's what happened to me when I thought a daily-driver 1200hp street/strip car was attainable.  Don't get me wrong, pulling into the work parking lot in an 8s car was fun, but I couldn't do it often.  I'm sure there are some out there who can and do, and more power to them.

As Jay pointed out, you can always throw a few psi at it to your liking.  In my case, I've done the 4-digit thing before and unless I had a sponsorship, I wouldn't want to do it again.  I'd like to run about 6psi and keep all of the creature comforts in the car so I don't feel guilty or uncomfortable driving it.

[turbohunter]

Greetings from a Country Squire daily driver owner.
To add a little fun in your driving, Hotchkiss makes a suspension setup for Galaxies that will bolt directly on. It takes a lot of room in the rear for the sway bar so you have to route exhaust carefully, but it does work. Also you’d think that being a wagon the rear springs would be to light. They work perfectly. People freak when I rip a corner. Fun.
As far as engine, I’m heading for either a Vortech or a turbo up. Just depends on how much fabbing fun I want to have.
Have you got some pics?

[TJ]

I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250.  Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway.  With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting.  I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.

I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle.  Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country.  It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway.  With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.

Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving.  For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country.  My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper.  The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like.  In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it. 

One time I tried it on a quarter mile.  Without flooring it and keeping it under 4500 rpms, I hit 90 which is too fast for me in a ‘65 pickup.  Someone who can actually drag race a car could easily beat my speed.  My point here is that it will get up and go.  Truck weighs around 4300 lbs btw.

[WerbyFord]

I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250.  Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway.  With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting.  I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.

I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle.  Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country.  It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway.  With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.

Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving.  For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country.  My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper.  The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like.  In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it. 

One time I tried it on a quarter mile.  Without flooring it and keeping it under 4500 rpms, I hit 90 which is too fast for me in a ‘65 pickup.  Someone who can actually drag race a car could easily beat my speed.  My point here is that it will get up and go.  Truck weighs around 4300 lbs btw.

TJ:
Is that still with the NP435 4-speed (ie 3-speed) truck trans, and the GV behind it?
What exhaust setup are you running? 1-3/4 headers and what size duals?
Do you recall the ET and the rest of the timeslip, 60ft, 330ft, f1/8 mile ET & MPH?
(Truck MPH will be lower than a car since the aero is so bad, so the "horsepower wheel" correlations wont work well).

Also are you sure of the WEIGHT?
My 1972 F-253, all iron 390, weighs 4900 with both tanks full (about 50 gals or 300 lb of fuel).
They are not as heavy as today's iron but still heavy.

[Cord]

I'm building a 462" at the moment that hits many of the same things you're trying to do.  A lot of it will come down to how much gear you're going with, and what transmission.  I run a TKO500 with 4.10 gear in my Mercury, which nets out at 2200rpm @ 70mph.  A drive it on highways and 60mph secondary roads a lot, so my build is dictated by this.  The cam profile has to be able to handle 1800rpm in overdrive without balking.  That said, I do drive it hard and with the 4.10s I like to have RPM flexibility...in other words have my cake and eat it too.  My car weighs 4070lbs, I'd assume your car would be heavier being a wagon.   I don't really consider this that heavy if you look at modern vehicle weights, but if going with a mild gear it will take some thought.  Trans combo with the deep first gear and cam means I can get away with quite a bit of cam if desired. 

We run manuals in just about everything that can be had today with a manual.  She and I both agree that we'd like to convert the wagon over to a manual.  I was planning to run 4.10 gears (I too like a deep gear) with a with a Tremec Magnum 6 speed.  Bowler is willing to set the transmission up with the close ratio 1-2, but then change the 5-6 to the wide ratio.  This should be the perfect gearing for the 4.10's.

My current engine in this combo is a 390 with a 224/232* cam, and it easily pulls the car at 1800rpm and pulls pretty well to 5800rpm with BBM heads.  The key is having good flowing heads so you can make the HP goal without requiring a lot of duration on the cam. 

I think the builds you're showing are perfect for the combo, and similar to what I'm building.  I'll be going with a 235/239* cam, which should scale well from what I have considering the increase in displacement.  The TFS heads are small cross section and will give a lot of lowend, but easily support the displacement and rpm I'm looking for, and will do it with relatively mild cam requirements. 

I've been really liking the TrickFlow heads on my paper builds.  A truly original design head and not a copy or improved version of a 60 year old design.

As far as being radical at these levels, I don't think so at all.   My 390 has a decent idle, but beyond that it's a baby around town, no issues at all shifting it at 2500rpm and just puttering around town.  Knock on wood, no issues with the engine at all minus a few annoying leaks.  If you want to run 87oct, again I'd think it's just a matter of paying attention to quench distance, making sure compression is reasonable, and making sure the cam matches the combo.  I run a true 9.2:1 compresson with the 224* and it runs fine on 87 even though I'm at .055 on quench which isn't optimal (I do run 93 quite a bit, but if I'm taking a long trip I just run 87).  Not sure where you live but I'd pay attention to choke and cold start performance if it's a true daily driver.  I don't run a heat crossover and have a manual choke, my 390 has always been pretty cold natured.  It starts fine in 30* weather but takes quite a bit of fiddling to keep running, and takes quite awhile to really warm up and run well....that impacts the street ability much more than the rest of the combo IMO

I'll be converting my car to fuel injection in the near future.  Already have the Sniper system, just need to buy the fuel pump, filters and distributor.  The Motorcraft carb that's on the car is the worst aspect to the whole vehicle.  Secondaries won't open, choke won't work and no shop can figure out why.  I'm in Wisconsin so I won't be running the vehicle when it's cold out.  I didn't catch what power level your 390 was at?

[Cord]

If it was my car I'd put in a Vortech V7 supercharger at about 8 pounds of boost, a very mild hydraulic roller cam, either the Tremec trans or a C4 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, and 3.91 gears.  Figure on about 450 foot pounds of torque and 400 HP naturally aspirated, and 650 foot pounds of torque and 600 HP with the supercharger.

As impressive as some the power number can be, I've never been a centrifugal supercharger guy.  Now if B&M still made the 174 or 250 mini superchargers, I would consider them.  That would have been pretty nice on the 352.  I think for this one, I want to stick naturally aspirated.  So many vehicles now a days are boosted, that it would be refreshing to not have lag.

[Cord]

The "More More More" desire for HP tapers off for street use but never seems to diminish at the track.  If this is meant to be a street car, and no drag racing, I would recommend keeping it in the 450-500hp range.  That's just the "golden zone" recipe for a fun car that you can bomb around in, not feel guilty, and stay out of trouble for the most part.

That's exactly the advice that I've been given previously.  Really reinforces what others have said.

[Cord]

Greetings from a Country Squire daily driver owner.
To add a little fun in your driving, Hotchkiss makes a suspension setup for Galaxies that will bolt directly on. It takes a lot of room in the rear for the sway bar so you have to route exhaust carefully, but it does work. Also you’d think that being a wagon the rear springs would be to light. They work perfectly. People freak when I rip a corner. Fun.
As far as engine, I’m heading for either a Vortech or a turbo up. Just depends on how much fabbing fun I want to have.
Have you got some pics?

The Hotchkiss kit is on my short list. I already bought the FatMan lowering spindles and Wilwood front brakes. The compression bent exhaust rubs so badly on the rear upper link that it wore a notch into the arms. I’ll have to put exhaust on the car first, but nobody makes a kit. I’ll have to go universal.
I tried to post some photos, but the file type isn’t compatible.

[Cord]

I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250.  Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway.  With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting.  I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.

I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle.  Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country.  It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway.  With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.

Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving.  For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country.  My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper.  The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like.  In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it.

I could see how that engine would be comparable to a LB7, they're pretty close for power numbers.  Do you have any videos of the truck idling and running?  I'd sure love to watch them.  Because the BBM block will take a 4.5" stroke, why no go with the longer arm and then build a 510"" motor?

[TJ]

I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250.  Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway.  With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting.  I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.

I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle.  Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country.  It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway.  With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.

Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving.  For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country.  My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper.  The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like.  In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it. 

One time I tried it on a quarter mile.  Without flooring it and keeping it under 4500 rpms, I hit 90 which is too fast for me in a ‘65 pickup.  Someone who can actually drag race a car could easily beat my speed.  My point here is that it will get up and go.  Truck weighs around 4300 lbs btw.

TJ:
Is that still with the NP435 4-speed (ie 3-speed) truck trans, and the GV behind it?
What exhaust setup are you running? 1-3/4 headers and what size duals?
Do you recall the ET and the rest of the timeslip, 60ft, 330ft, f1/8 mile ET & MPH?
(Truck MPH will be lower than a car since the aero is so bad, so the "horsepower wheel" correlations wont work well).

Also are you sure of the WEIGHT?
My 1972 F-253, all iron 390, weighs 4900 with both tanks full (about 50 gals or 300 lb of fuel).
They are not as heavy as today's iron but still heavy.

Hi WerbyFord
I really wish I could help you out.  I very much enjoy your methodical approach to estimating hp based on so many variables.  I doubt I'll be any help but will tell you what I know.

For my 1/4 mile run, I was not at a track.  I marked off 440 yards along the state highway using a range finder so I have no time data.  At the time I had the same NP435 but no gear vendor.  I have 1 3/4 headers (Try-Y from FPA) going into 2.5 inch piped dual mufflers with an H pipe connector. 

You're closer on weight than I was.  I was going off memory so I checked my weight ticket from CAT.  Total weight = 4880 (with me, 15 gal fuel, and 200 lbs worth of rubber mat and side boards for hauling wood).  Plus my truck has a rather heavy homemade bumper hitch as well as plates for a 5th wheel and goose neck hitch.   This is how I was configured on "race" day.  As for aerodynamic, my side boards are 22 inches and surround the bed.  That's how I was when I went ripping up the road.

My hope was to help the OP since it seemed Cord was a little let down by some previous experience in the 450ish hp range.  If a non-skilled driver like me can hit 90 in a 1/4 without really trying, I think a 482 like mine would be fun for the OP.  I stayed under 4500 rpm, never saw WOT, was actually slight uphill grade, with a tranny that takes forever to shift from 2nd to 3rd. 

Since you mentioned weight, might be worth mentioning my truck is nearly 50/50 front/rear weight.  So if my truck spins even on wet pavement or wet grass it's because I did it on purpose.  My engine might make a car spin too easy to be fun. Might have to modify a car in someway to reduce wheel spin.  I think that would be tiresome.

[jayb]

If it was my car I'd put in a Vortech V7 supercharger at about 8 pounds of boost, a very mild hydraulic roller cam, either the Tremec trans or a C4 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, and 3.91 gears.  Figure on about 450 foot pounds of torque and 400 HP naturally aspirated, and 650 foot pounds of torque and 600 HP with the supercharger.

As impressive as some the power number can be, I've never been a centrifugal supercharger guy.  Now if B&M still made the 174 or 250 mini superchargers, I would consider them.  That would have been pretty nice on the 352.  I think for this one, I want to stick naturally aspirated.  So many vehicles now a days are boosted, that it would be refreshing to not have lag.

There is no lag with a centrifugal supercharger, or any crank driven supercharger.  Lag is for turbos...

[chilly460]

I'll be converting my car to fuel injection in the near future.  Already have the Sniper system, just need to buy the fuel pump, filters and distributor.  The Motorcraft carb that's on the car is the worst aspect to the whole vehicle.  Secondaries won't open, choke won't work and no shop can figure out why.  I'm in Wisconsin so I won't be running the vehicle when it's cold out.  I didn't catch what power level your 390 was at?

I haven't had it on an engine dyno, but between converting chassis dyno numbers and what it did at the track, it's around 425hp.