FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Cord on August 13, 2020, 06:31:08 AM
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Car is a 1966 Country Sedan. It has not been restored, just really well maintained. Most mechanical items have been touched, but only to keep it stock. Engine, trans, rear end have all been rebuilt and are functioning great. Yet, it’s a boring car to drive so I find myself dreaming...
I’ve been working on a build list that I can go shopping off of. I’ve been working on it for over a year and it’s getting detailed enough that I’m now entering part numbers. My plan is to buy a little hear and there until I have enough parts to make a major change.
This is my first real classic car and I really enjoy it. The cars primary use is a distance cruiser. We’ve been jumping it and going for Sunday drives, putting on a couple hundred miles each time. I’d like to Hot Rod power tour and maybe run it on a auto cross course. Drag racing doesn’t interest me too greatly. For this reason I want reliability and mileage over raw max power.
I’ve polled a few and they’re reporting 450-500 being a good hp target. I’ve driven 450hp late model stuff and it’s been ok, but not as thrilling as I’d expect. I had a p-pump Cummins that put down 435/880. Truck was fun to drive, but it was slow, a pain to shift and I hated the turbo lag. But you get that truck with 5,000lb behind it and it was a joy to run through the Smokies at 80mph! I now have a Duramax that’s tuned and should make 520 at the wheels. Truck is quick and pulls hard, but I don’t know if I’d call it fast. It’s certainly more driver friendly than the Cummins was.
When I compare my experience to the recommended hp range of 450-500 I see a disparity. For this reason I find myself lusting for more, more, more! The question is just how much do I really want?
I’ve read through most of the engine builds (Thanks Brett!) and pulled two that really peaked my interest: http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ob235h4rigf5qcnbh4e6438b40&topic=9019.0 and http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2809.0. I’m wondering which would be a better fit for my goal? I have to admit that 620lbft is sure tempting. I could really see myself short shifting that engine and cruising it. But are they still too much? Too radical, need premium fuel, need constant valve adjustments to stay in peak forum? None of that is what I’d want. Daily drive ability is one piece of data that’s missing from the build lists. I’m not looking for a Yes or No response, but I’m seeking a more in depth response that’ll come someone with more experience than I. So the question bears repeating; just how much power do I really want?
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I'm building a 462" at the moment that hits many of the same things you're trying to do. A lot of it will come down to how much gear you're going with, and what transmission. I run a TKO500 with 4.10 gear in my Mercury, which nets out at 2200rpm @ 70mph. A drive it on highways and 60mph secondary roads a lot, so my build is dictated by this. The cam profile has to be able to handle 1800rpm in overdrive without balking. That said, I do drive it hard and with the 4.10s I like to have RPM flexibility...in other words have my cake and eat it too. My car weighs 4070lbs, I'd assume your car would be heavier being a wagon. I don't really consider this that heavy if you look at modern vehicle weights, but if going with a mild gear it will take some thought. Trans combo with the deep first gear and cam means I can get away with quite a bit of cam if desired.
My current engine in this combo is a 390 with a 224/232* cam, and it easily pulls the car at 1800rpm and pulls pretty well to 5800rpm with BBM heads. The key is having good flowing heads so you can make the HP goal without requiring a lot of duration on the cam.
I think the builds you're showing are perfect for the combo, and similar to what I'm building. I'll be going with a 235/239* cam, which should scale well from what I have considering the increase in displacement. The TFS heads are small cross section and will give a lot of lowend, but easily support the displacement and rpm I'm looking for, and will do it with relatively mild cam requirements.
As far as being radical at these levels, I don't think so at all. My 390 has a decent idle, but beyond that it's a baby around town, no issues at all shifting it at 2500rpm and just puttering around town. Knock on wood, no issues with the engine at all minus a few annoying leaks. If you want to run 87oct, again I'd think it's just a matter of paying attention to quench distance, making sure compression is reasonable, and making sure the cam matches the combo. I run a true 9.2:1 compresson with the 224* and it runs fine on 87 even though I'm at .055 on quench which isn't optimal (I do run 93 quite a bit, but if I'm taking a long trip I just run 87). Not sure where you live but I'd pay attention to choke and cold start performance if it's a true daily driver. I don't run a heat crossover and have a manual choke, my 390 has always been pretty cold natured. It starts fine in 30* weather but takes quite a bit of fiddling to keep running, and takes quite awhile to really warm up and run well....that impacts the street ability much more than the rest of the combo IMO
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You've given a really open-ended question that can't easily be answered. Here are a couple of thoughts, though:
- If you're not willing to run premium fuel in your engine, keep it mostly stock
- Constantly adjusting the valvetrain is a myth, even with a pretty radical cam. New valvetrain parts don't need to be constantly adjusted, probably not even once a year.
- A centrifugal supercharger is the easiest way to make big torque with good street manners. In a heavy car with a big engine compartment like yours, it wouldn't be a difficult installation, and it would get that heavy car moving.
- An overdrive or O/D trans like the Tremec would allow you to run a deeper rear end gear, which would help a lot, maybe more than anything else.
- As soon as you upgrade the engine to make a bunch of power, figure on upgrading the trans and rear end also.
If it was my car I'd put in a Vortech V7 supercharger at about 8 pounds of boost, a very mild hydraulic roller cam, either the Tremec trans or a C4 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, and 3.91 gears. Figure on about 450 foot pounds of torque and 400 HP naturally aspirated, and 650 foot pounds of torque and 600 HP with the supercharger.
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The "More More More" desire for HP tapers off for street use but never seems to diminish at the track. If this is meant to be a street car, and no drag racing, I would recommend keeping it in the 450-500hp range. That's just the "golden zone" recipe for a fun car that you can bomb around in, not feel guilty, and stay out of trouble for the most part.
When you start getting into 600, 700, 800+ territory, the street manners often suffer to some degree. When a slight bark to the throttle can send you sideways and you're already running the fattest, stickiest drag radials, you know it's getting to be a bit much. You find that you don't really want to drive it as much. That's what happened to me when I thought a daily-driver 1200hp street/strip car was attainable. Don't get me wrong, pulling into the work parking lot in an 8s car was fun, but I couldn't do it often. I'm sure there are some out there who can and do, and more power to them.
As Jay pointed out, you can always throw a few psi at it to your liking. In my case, I've done the 4-digit thing before and unless I had a sponsorship, I wouldn't want to do it again. I'd like to run about 6psi and keep all of the creature comforts in the car so I don't feel guilty or uncomfortable driving it.
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Greetings from a Country Squire daily driver owner.
To add a little fun in your driving, Hotchkiss makes a suspension setup for Galaxies that will bolt directly on. It takes a lot of room in the rear for the sway bar so you have to route exhaust carefully, but it does work. Also you’d think that being a wagon the rear springs would be to light. They work perfectly. People freak when I rip a corner. Fun.
As far as engine, I’m heading for either a Vortech or a turbo up. Just depends on how much fabbing fun I want to have.
Have you got some pics?
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I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250. Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway. With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting. I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.
I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle. Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country. It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway. With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.
Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving. For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country. My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper. The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like. In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it.
One time I tried it on a quarter mile. Without flooring it and keeping it under 4500 rpms, I hit 90 which is too fast for me in a ‘65 pickup. Someone who can actually drag race a car could easily beat my speed. My point here is that it will get up and go. Truck weighs around 4300 lbs btw.
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I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250. Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway. With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting. I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.
I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle. Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country. It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway. With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.
Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving. For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country. My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper. The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like. In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it.
One time I tried it on a quarter mile. Without flooring it and keeping it under 4500 rpms, I hit 90 which is too fast for me in a ‘65 pickup. Someone who can actually drag race a car could easily beat my speed. My point here is that it will get up and go. Truck weighs around 4300 lbs btw.
TJ:
Is that still with the NP435 4-speed (ie 3-speed) truck trans, and the GV behind it?
What exhaust setup are you running? 1-3/4 headers and what size duals?
Do you recall the ET and the rest of the timeslip, 60ft, 330ft, f1/8 mile ET & MPH?
(Truck MPH will be lower than a car since the aero is so bad, so the "horsepower wheel" correlations wont work well).
Also are you sure of the WEIGHT?
My 1972 F-253, all iron 390, weighs 4900 with both tanks full (about 50 gals or 300 lb of fuel).
They are not as heavy as today's iron but still heavy.
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I'm building a 462" at the moment that hits many of the same things you're trying to do. A lot of it will come down to how much gear you're going with, and what transmission. I run a TKO500 with 4.10 gear in my Mercury, which nets out at 2200rpm @ 70mph. A drive it on highways and 60mph secondary roads a lot, so my build is dictated by this. The cam profile has to be able to handle 1800rpm in overdrive without balking. That said, I do drive it hard and with the 4.10s I like to have RPM flexibility...in other words have my cake and eat it too. My car weighs 4070lbs, I'd assume your car would be heavier being a wagon. I don't really consider this that heavy if you look at modern vehicle weights, but if going with a mild gear it will take some thought. Trans combo with the deep first gear and cam means I can get away with quite a bit of cam if desired.
We run manuals in just about everything that can be had today with a manual. She and I both agree that we'd like to convert the wagon over to a manual. I was planning to run 4.10 gears (I too like a deep gear) with a with a Tremec Magnum 6 speed. Bowler is willing to set the transmission up with the close ratio 1-2, but then change the 5-6 to the wide ratio. This should be the perfect gearing for the 4.10's.
My current engine in this combo is a 390 with a 224/232* cam, and it easily pulls the car at 1800rpm and pulls pretty well to 5800rpm with BBM heads. The key is having good flowing heads so you can make the HP goal without requiring a lot of duration on the cam.
I think the builds you're showing are perfect for the combo, and similar to what I'm building. I'll be going with a 235/239* cam, which should scale well from what I have considering the increase in displacement. The TFS heads are small cross section and will give a lot of lowend, but easily support the displacement and rpm I'm looking for, and will do it with relatively mild cam requirements.
I've been really liking the TrickFlow heads on my paper builds. A truly original design head and not a copy or improved version of a 60 year old design.
As far as being radical at these levels, I don't think so at all. My 390 has a decent idle, but beyond that it's a baby around town, no issues at all shifting it at 2500rpm and just puttering around town. Knock on wood, no issues with the engine at all minus a few annoying leaks. If you want to run 87oct, again I'd think it's just a matter of paying attention to quench distance, making sure compression is reasonable, and making sure the cam matches the combo. I run a true 9.2:1 compresson with the 224* and it runs fine on 87 even though I'm at .055 on quench which isn't optimal (I do run 93 quite a bit, but if I'm taking a long trip I just run 87). Not sure where you live but I'd pay attention to choke and cold start performance if it's a true daily driver. I don't run a heat crossover and have a manual choke, my 390 has always been pretty cold natured. It starts fine in 30* weather but takes quite a bit of fiddling to keep running, and takes quite awhile to really warm up and run well....that impacts the street ability much more than the rest of the combo IMO
I'll be converting my car to fuel injection in the near future. Already have the Sniper system, just need to buy the fuel pump, filters and distributor. The Motorcraft carb that's on the car is the worst aspect to the whole vehicle. Secondaries won't open, choke won't work and no shop can figure out why. I'm in Wisconsin so I won't be running the vehicle when it's cold out. I didn't catch what power level your 390 was at?
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If it was my car I'd put in a Vortech V7 supercharger at about 8 pounds of boost, a very mild hydraulic roller cam, either the Tremec trans or a C4 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, and 3.91 gears. Figure on about 450 foot pounds of torque and 400 HP naturally aspirated, and 650 foot pounds of torque and 600 HP with the supercharger.
As impressive as some the power number can be, I've never been a centrifugal supercharger guy. Now if B&M still made the 174 or 250 mini superchargers, I would consider them. That would have been pretty nice on the 352. I think for this one, I want to stick naturally aspirated. So many vehicles now a days are boosted, that it would be refreshing to not have lag.
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The "More More More" desire for HP tapers off for street use but never seems to diminish at the track. If this is meant to be a street car, and no drag racing, I would recommend keeping it in the 450-500hp range. That's just the "golden zone" recipe for a fun car that you can bomb around in, not feel guilty, and stay out of trouble for the most part.
That's exactly the advice that I've been given previously. Really reinforces what others have said.
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Greetings from a Country Squire daily driver owner.
To add a little fun in your driving, Hotchkiss makes a suspension setup for Galaxies that will bolt directly on. It takes a lot of room in the rear for the sway bar so you have to route exhaust carefully, but it does work. Also you’d think that being a wagon the rear springs would be to light. They work perfectly. People freak when I rip a corner. Fun.
As far as engine, I’m heading for either a Vortech or a turbo up. Just depends on how much fabbing fun I want to have.
Have you got some pics?
The Hotchkiss kit is on my short list. I already bought the FatMan lowering spindles and Wilwood front brakes. The compression bent exhaust rubs so badly on the rear upper link that it wore a notch into the arms. I’ll have to put exhaust on the car first, but nobody makes a kit. I’ll have to go universal.
I tried to post some photos, but the file type isn’t compatible.
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I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250. Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway. With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting. I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.
I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle. Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country. It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway. With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.
Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving. For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country. My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper. The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like. In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it.
I could see how that engine would be comparable to a LB7, they're pretty close for power numbers. Do you have any videos of the truck idling and running? I'd sure love to watch them. Because the BBM block will take a 4.5" stroke, why no go with the longer arm and then build a 510"" motor?
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I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250. Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway. With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting. I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.
I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle. Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country. It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway. With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.
Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving. For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country. My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper. The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like. In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it.
One time I tried it on a quarter mile. Without flooring it and keeping it under 4500 rpms, I hit 90 which is too fast for me in a ‘65 pickup. Someone who can actually drag race a car could easily beat my speed. My point here is that it will get up and go. Truck weighs around 4300 lbs btw.
TJ:
Is that still with the NP435 4-speed (ie 3-speed) truck trans, and the GV behind it?
What exhaust setup are you running? 1-3/4 headers and what size duals?
Do you recall the ET and the rest of the timeslip, 60ft, 330ft, f1/8 mile ET & MPH?
(Truck MPH will be lower than a car since the aero is so bad, so the "horsepower wheel" correlations wont work well).
Also are you sure of the WEIGHT?
My 1972 F-253, all iron 390, weighs 4900 with both tanks full (about 50 gals or 300 lb of fuel).
They are not as heavy as today's iron but still heavy.
Hi WerbyFord
I really wish I could help you out. I very much enjoy your methodical approach to estimating hp based on so many variables. I doubt I'll be any help but will tell you what I know.
For my 1/4 mile run, I was not at a track. I marked off 440 yards along the state highway using a range finder so I have no time data. At the time I had the same NP435 but no gear vendor. I have 1 3/4 headers (Try-Y from FPA) going into 2.5 inch piped dual mufflers with an H pipe connector.
You're closer on weight than I was. I was going off memory so I checked my weight ticket from CAT. Total weight = 4880 (with me, 15 gal fuel, and 200 lbs worth of rubber mat and side boards for hauling wood). Plus my truck has a rather heavy homemade bumper hitch as well as plates for a 5th wheel and goose neck hitch. This is how I was configured on "race" day. As for aerodynamic, my side boards are 22 inches and surround the bed. That's how I was when I went ripping up the road.
My hope was to help the OP since it seemed Cord was a little let down by some previous experience in the 450ish hp range. If a non-skilled driver like me can hit 90 in a 1/4 without really trying, I think a 482 like mine would be fun for the OP. I stayed under 4500 rpm, never saw WOT, was actually slight uphill grade, with a tranny that takes forever to shift from 2nd to 3rd.
Since you mentioned weight, might be worth mentioning my truck is nearly 50/50 front/rear weight. So if my truck spins even on wet pavement or wet grass it's because I did it on purpose. My engine might make a car spin too easy to be fun. Might have to modify a car in someway to reduce wheel spin. I think that would be tiresome.
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If it was my car I'd put in a Vortech V7 supercharger at about 8 pounds of boost, a very mild hydraulic roller cam, either the Tremec trans or a C4 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, and 3.91 gears. Figure on about 450 foot pounds of torque and 400 HP naturally aspirated, and 650 foot pounds of torque and 600 HP with the supercharger.
As impressive as some the power number can be, I've never been a centrifugal supercharger guy. Now if B&M still made the 174 or 250 mini superchargers, I would consider them. That would have been pretty nice on the 352. I think for this one, I want to stick naturally aspirated. So many vehicles now a days are boosted, that it would be refreshing to not have lag.
There is no lag with a centrifugal supercharger, or any crank driven supercharger. Lag is for turbos...
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I'll be converting my car to fuel injection in the near future. Already have the Sniper system, just need to buy the fuel pump, filters and distributor. The Motorcraft carb that's on the car is the worst aspect to the whole vehicle. Secondaries won't open, choke won't work and no shop can figure out why. I'm in Wisconsin so I won't be running the vehicle when it's cold out. I didn't catch what power level your 390 was at?
I haven't had it on an engine dyno, but between converting chassis dyno numbers and what it did at the track, it's around 425hp.
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I have the engine in the 2nd link...620 lb ft towing...in my ‘65 F250. Five years and around 15,000 miles I just drive it....mostly freeway. With hydraulic lifters I don’t believe you have any adjusting. I run 91 gas...probably be fine with 89 but I haul and do some towing so I stick with 91.
I wouldn’t call it radical though it does have a very mild rumble at idle. Would definitely feel comfortable cruising the entire country. It’s easily controllable and pleasant both in town and freeway. With 4.10 rear and gear vender it turns 2300ish rpms at 70 mph.
Power-wise it is lively with very good street manners for in-town driving. For comparison and since you mention diesels, we have a stock tuned LB7 duramax that we really like and feel adequate pulling our 5 ton plus camper all over the country. My ‘65 will outrun the LB7 when both trucks are empty as well as when both are hitched to our camper. The LB7 has enough power and I have no desire to tune it or buy a newer diesel, so hopefully the comparison gives you a little idea what my 482 runs and drives like. In fact, if something happened to our LB7, I would seriously consider dropping my 482 and NP435 with gear vender overdrive into a newer Ford for cross country camper trips...because it runs that well, has not required fiddling, and pulls plenty strong for how I use it.
I could see how that engine would be comparable to a LB7, they're pretty close for power numbers. Do you have any videos of the truck idling and running? I'd sure love to watch them. Because the BBM block will take a 4.5" stroke, why no go with the longer arm and then build a 510"" motor?
Sorry, I only mentioned the LB7 as a frame of reference. I'm not sure I would call the two engines comparable. On some hills with our camper, the allison tranny behind the LB7 has to shift from 5 (overdrive) to 4. It will maintain 62ish mph and feels like it will do it with even more weight, but that's it speed-wise without over revving it and I'm okay with that...no need to race with a camper. In the same situation, the 482 is just getting started and will accelerate up that same hill. To be sure, I really, really like the LB7 and the truck that surrounds it. But if speed towing is the criteria, the 482 will win with more torque, more hp, and a broader power band. The factory tune LB7 is a steady work horse, the 482 is more like a freak of nature that happens to be docile enough for well behaved cruising.
Why not 4.5 stroke? I thought I was off my rocker already with a 482:-) Plus the 4.25 stroke goes in with no special concerns or cautions build-wise so I went with that.
Edit: I'll try to get audio file this weekend of it running. Just don't expect too much because I'm technology challenged.
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You won’t fit a 4.5” stroke in a BBM block with a cam in the middle...
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Brent, unless there is something odd with the BBM block, a 4.5" stroke crank will fit. But with the BBC connecting rod size, you will be limited in the cam you can run. I mocked up a 4.5" stroke crank with 2.200" journals in a Shelby block with Crower billet rods, and a 0.700" lift cam cleared after some clearancing on the rod shoulders. But I wanted to run a 0.780" lift cam, and that wasn't going to work.
However, if you go to a 2.100" crankpin and use SBC rods, a 4.5" stroke crank will fit with a big cam. That stroke is a stretch, but it can be made to work.
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Brent, unless there is something odd with the BBM block, a 4.5" stroke crank will fit. But with the BBC connecting rod size, you will be limited in the cam you can run. I mocked up a 4.5" stroke crank with 2.200" journals in a Shelby block with Crower billet rods, and a 0.700" lift cam cleared after some clearancing on the rod shoulders. But I wanted to run a 0.780" lift cam, and that wasn't going to work.
However, if you go to a 2.100" crankpin and use SBC rods, a 4.5" stroke crank will fit with a big cam. That stroke is a stretch, but it can be made to work.
Excellent, thanks Jay.
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TJ:
I Gonkulated your big rig at 94-95mph in the 1/4 mile, with that big NP435 shifting with all the zippiness of a Model A Ford trans (they seemed about the same when we had both!) so your hand-measured 90 or so on the speedo is in the ballpark. Net HP is about 420, down over 100hp from gross on the dyno.
Cord:
I then took TJ's mild-mannered engine and Gonkulated it in a 66 wagon. I have a 64 wagon so figured the weight is pretty similar. The big Ford went on a diet for 1965, then went back to gaining weight each year as before.
The last thing I did was change the aero from TJ's truck to your wagon. That was worth .20 sec and 3.6mph in the 1/4, just the AERO, and that wagon isn't exactly a Talladega.
With 3" pipes, drag radials, 2.32 top loader & 3.89 gears, for TJ's engine in your wagon I Gonkulated:
1.77
7.86 at 87.7
12.30 at 111.8mph
3.93 0-60mph
That's on 463 net HP.
Easy to add more if that's not enough for those pesky Hellcats, but folks will like your car better anyway.
The last time I was at the strip, an old red 409/340hp Chevy was the hit of the night, in spite of only running 15s or 14s. All the heavy new pony & fast&furious kids cars were invisible compared to that old 409.
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TJ:
I Gonkulated your big rig at 94-95mph in the 1/4 mile, with that big NP435 shifting with all the zippiness of a Model A Ford trans (they seemed about the same when we had both!) so your hand-measured 90 or so on the speedo is in the ballpark. Net HP is about 420, down over 100hp from gross on the dyno.
Cord:
I then took TJ's mild-mannered engine and Gonkulated it in a 66 wagon. I have a 64 wagon so figured the weight is pretty similar. The big Ford went on a diet for 1965, then went back to gaining weight each year as before.
The last thing I did was change the aero from TJ's truck to your wagon. That was worth .20 sec and 3.6mph in the 1/4, just the AERO, and that wagon isn't exactly a Talladega.
With 3" pipes, drag radials, 2.32 top loader & 3.89 gears, for TJ's engine in your wagon I Gonkulated:
1.77
7.86 at 87.7
12.30 at 111.8mph
3.93 0-60mph
That's on 463 net HP.
Easy to add more if that's not enough for those pesky Hellcats, but folks will like your car better anyway.
The last time I was at the strip, an old red 409/340hp Chevy was the hit of the night, in spite of only running 15s or 14s. All the heavy new pony & fast&furious kids cars were invisible compared to that old 409.
WerbyFord,
Thank you. That's pretty cool that you can calculate that close. I'm sure I can do better :)
Cord,
I tried to get a few sound bites but my phone recorder wasn't working right. At idle, imagine a polite rumble...like low, rolling thunder. When cruising it's more of a comforting hum.
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You won’t fit a 4.5” stroke in a BBM block with a cam in the middle...
Lol, they kinda neglected to mention that on the features list!
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You won’t fit a 4.5” stroke in a BBM block with a cam in the middle...
Lol, they kinda neglected to mention that on the features list!
I haven't tried one, but if Jay says it will work with some grinding/carving on the rods, then it should work. Normally a 4.375" stroke is where it starts getting close on things.
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You won’t fit a 4.5” stroke in a BBM block with a cam in the middle...
Lol, they kinda neglected to mention that on the features list!
I haven't tried one, but if Jay says it will work with some grinding/carving on the rods, then it should work. Normally a 4.375" stroke is where it starts getting close on things.
I read that after posting... this combo has me thinking about the engines potential. If I took your 620lbft tow build and stroked it out to 510””, I’d guess the motor would make around 570hp and 660lbft. It’ll pull harder than a Buick and rpm better too. I’ve always liked to short shift and torque the motor (maybe that’s why I like driving my Harley over the GTi) and this combo would be perfect for that. Thoughts? Too much for the street in a wagon? I think it might be comparable to the strokes Mopar that Lucky runs.
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You'll just have to decide how much power you want and go from there. If 400 hp will do the trick, that's a 390. If you have to have X lb-ft of torque at X rpm, then you have to start looking elsewhere.
A stroked 445 will make almost 590 lb-ft of torque with TFS heads and the right camshaft. Not sure if you'd want to spend the extra money for an aftermarket block, steel crank, etc.
Again, it just comes down to what your goals are.
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Yea, I keep finding myself getting sucked back into the purpose of the thread. It tough to build a motor on paper when you really don’t know what you want.
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A station wagon on an auto cross course is about the worst decision anyone could make. It would not be fun going around corners, and would be hell to get slowed down. Just to make it fun would require springs and sway bars so heavy that it would be rough on the street. NOT what you want on Power Tour, or just to enjoy on a street cruise.
It's just my opinion, but I'd build it for torque and mileage (not an easy task for an FE in a wagon), and enjoy it for what it is; a cruiser that's great for family get-aways, camping, vacations, cruising etc. A nice old wagon will get attention anywhere it goes. Deeper gears and 500hp will get you Premium Fuel and 10mpg, at best. That will take the fun out of Power Tour in a hurry!
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that thing would be sweet with just a good 445 build for torque with fuel injection and one of those new/used 6 speed automatics that are plentiful laying around in junkyards
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Cjshaker mentioned mpg...I get over 13mpg freeway. Any in town or any lead footing it and I’m under 11. Some type of fuel injection and better gears might get over 14.
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A station wagon on an auto cross course is about the worst decision anyone could make. It would not be fun going around corners, and would be hell to get slowed down. Just to make it fun would require springs and sway bars so heavy that it would be rough on the street. NOT what you want on Power Tour, or just to enjoy on a street cruise.
It's just my opinion, but I'd build it for torque and mileage (not an easy task for an FE in a wagon), and enjoy it for what it is; a cruiser that's great for family get-aways, camping, vacations, cruising etc. A nice old wagon will get attention anywhere it goes. Deeper gears and 500hp will get you Premium Fuel and 10mpg, at best. That will take the fun out of Power Tour in a hurry!
Yes, you're quite right.
But just think of the spectators in awe of a big, old heavy Ford wagon in the esses! With all those state/camping venues and where-we've-been decals on the rear windows before the bumper hitch! The 8-track tape deck blaring out early Stones hits!
Burning up front tires (and likely the rears too) as if it was Mr. Goodyear driving and owned the damned thing.
Hey, I'd pay to see it!
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Mileage though important is not my first concern.
Driving old stuff is low dollar registration, insurance and no payments. 10/12 mpg? No prob.
Rippin’ a nice corner in my wagon? Priceless.
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Mileage though important is not my first concern.
Driving old stuff is low dollar registration, insurance and no payments. 10/12 mpg? No prob.
Rippin’ a nice corner in my wagon? Priceless.
My bad, I thought this was about Cord, and what best served his desires.
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And he was asking about wagons.
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When I build a street engine for someone the time spent sort of runs like this, in order of time spent
1 - Determining what they want with all kinds of questions, opinions, examples, and discussion. Time spent up front is worth it's weight in gold.
2 - Waiting for parts
3 - Waiting for machine work (of course these two don't matter much, but it does go into expectation management and is worse since COVID)
4 - Building and documenting the engine (goes pretty quickly)
You don't have to decide before you talk to the builder, unless you ARE the builder LOL. However, I think the RPM range should be your guide more than the HP peak. Once you lock that in, which I actually think you did in your first post, then it's really budget more than anything.
One thing is I would not do is compare your Cummins 400 HP to a gas vehicle, you won't have to build boost, rotating assembly is lighter, every single component across your car has less parasitic loss and no straight six winds up like a V-8 ( flame suit on but I won't budge on that one). That being said, Jay's advice for a blower is a neat idea, very neat idea, but I would say that it requires a fresh engine underneath it anyway. I think an older rebuild or stock would quickly start pressurizing the pan and also start finding the weakest links.
If you are doing a 445 or 462, or even bigger, it's pretty straightforward to build a mid 500s HP engine with no significant maintenance and pump gas. It's all about using the right stuff. Heck, you can get there without fancy stuff, my own F100 is 490 HP / 550 TQ with a 15 year old custom flat tappet, ported truck heads, a port matched Victor intake and 9.75:1 compression. It peaks at 5000. I may not wrangle with a pumped Cummins in the mountains with 5K on the bumper, but gets your attention is a short box lifted 4x4! I filled it with 89 octane yesterday :) Swap that to an RPM and a modern HR cam, you are in the 500s, add better heads, it gets more exciting.
I would take the time to figure out exactly what your budget will handle, (and if the car carries that value) be sure to think about some sort of posi, building a tranny to take the power, what you think about the current gear ratio at the speeds you run most frequently, etc, and then what you want to spend on an engine. Once you get there, there is sort of a box everything fits into, and then the parts maximize the power to fit in that box.
I do think you are right to look at some of the street builds in the dyno section, Brent's truck motor you referenced was stout, as were many more of the pump gas motors on that page.
If it were mine, and assuming a 3.00-3.25 gear and a stock-ish tire size, my gut says 445 (unless you have a 428 block) and just build for a 5500-5700-ish peak with a set of Trick Flows and an RPM intake, then build the supporting parts around it. If the wallet screams now, wait or back off from there