My first trip to the dragstrip

[Ratbird]

Didn’t do too well, but I had a blast. Made six runs with a best time of 15.125 with a reaction time of .623. (My average reaction time was .510) next time I'll just start on the last yellow and be much better.
The first run I drove right through the water and didn’t do a burnout. The starter had me roll down my window and explained that next time be sure to do a burnout, or drive around it. EVERYONE who worked at the track was awesome, really good people, and super helpful with everything. Sadly, my first run was the only one that the car ran right, the other 5 runs it was cutting out at different times. Not sure what it was, but at home it was running fine. The altitude at home is 6800, at the track it’s about 5200. I also had way too much spinning off the line the first 3 runs (it’s an open differential). The last two runs I did burnouts - I also revved at the line to about 5000 rpm and then feathered the clutch a lot better.  But every run I left a lot of time out there - either spinning, sputtering, or bad reaction. I made a ton of notes and feel I will do a lot better next time. Plus next time I’ll have a posi to go with my Centerforce dual friction clutch. I truly believe that if I could have got the car running cleanly and gotten off the line around .300 I would have been at 14.5ish range. Get the posi pumpkin in the car and I should be in the low 14's at a mile high.
And yes "Fastback 427", I'm hooked!

Any ideas what would cause the car to go flat during a run? I've never experienced valve float, but I image what I was experiencing feels like that. However, it happened once at about 4000 rpms in first gear. Another time it happened in 1st and 2nd, and another time it happened in 3rd. Usually around the 4500 - 5300 rpm range. It was a lot hotter than the car is used to. I had to let it cool down between runs because it was up to 215 degrees.

regards, Dave Jones 

[cjshaker]

Congrats on your first outing...and a new hobby

Just an FYI, reaction time wont affect your ET. The timer starts when you trip the lights. But it can lose you a race as the difference between your reaction time is compared to your opponents reaction time. So if you're .3 seconds slowe in RT, your opponent will win even if you beat him by .299 in the race.

I would look towards the ignition for the problem. Possibly a bad coil, weak points (if it's points ignition), plugs? Even bad or improperly gapped plugs or a weak condenser can cause the issue. Sounds kind of early to be running out of fuel unless it's dumping fuel in...and that would show in the plugs and exhaust.

Hope you find the issue soon.

[Ratbird]

Thx Doug, I'm learning more and more.

The ignition, coil, wires, and plugs are all new with about 300 miles on them. I have a Pertronix 2 setup. I'm running autolite plugs, can't remember the number but those are what someone advised when I told them I had Bosch in it. I have them gapped at .038, maybe I should go to the factory .035 gap.

Can too much timing cause the missing? I have it at 13 and a total of 37; maybe drop it back to 12?

I'm thinking fuel. I have too much rubber line from the pump to the carb, and it's 5/16. Plus the 59 T-bird has the original fuel line coming from the tank. I'm going to replace that with 3/8 all the way through.

Lots to do!

thx again

[Lenz]

Congrats on that first outing, sounds like you had a good time .  Without going back in time I think the plugs that were recommended to you were autolite 45's.
Hope you get it sorted out without too much trouble.

[KMcCullah]

The first run I drove right through the water and didn’t do a burnout. 

You were obviously excited. Better put a reminder list in the car for next time.

When I was a young guy I built a 1972 LTD demolition derby car. I was so damn excited in my first heat that I forgot to put my seat belt on! 3 broken ribs served as my reminder. 

[Joe-JDC]

A couple of pointers: First, you do not decrease the time by cutting a better light-the timer starts when the wheels break the beam, so a 2 second reaction time will not make the car slower.  If the engine is laying down above a certain rpm, then you are not getting fuel to the carb quick enough, or you have an aircleaner/filter issue, or fuel filter issue.  Since you have obviously driven the car harder than previously, some sediment may have moved around in the tank and clogged/partially clogged the fuel system at some juncture.  Check it out well, and make sure you have a vented fuel cap/tank.  Joe-JDC

[cjshaker]

I was so damn excited in my first heat that I forgot to put my seat belt on! 3 broken ribs served as my reminder. 

Ouch, Kevin!! That's a painful, but unforgetable, reminder!

Since the ignition is new, I would look towards the fuel as you thought and Joe suggested. Although, I have seen coils cause this same issue. I might try throwing an old one on if I had one just to eliminate it as a possibility....and it's a quick free check. Even new parts can and do have issues sometimes. That 5/16 fuel line is marginal at best on a stock engine. Definitely not suitable for any kind of performance. But in the interest of being cheap, I would check the filters first as Joe also suggested. Is your fuel pump new also? A weak pump will cause the same result. Should be easy enough to turn the engine over (ignition disconnected) and confirm you have decent flow. Another free check. If it seems ok, you may find the 5/16 line is the issue...which may lead to finding out that your 'good' pump won't flow very well with the larger line. It's called the snowball effect...lol
Your timing sounds fine also, as does your plug gap.

[Ratbird]

Aw, yes, Autolite 45's is what they are - thx Lenz.

Thx Joe, I put a new tank in it a couple of years ago, and I always keep the tank mostly full. I should have replaced the cruddy old lines - that's getting done whether it's the problem or not.

Thx for the answers and suggestions CJShaker. I actually replaced the coil a couple of months ago. I had a stock one and someone told me to get the correct 40,000 volt one from Petronix so I did. BTW, if anyone wants a brand new "Flamethrower 45,000 volts" I have an extra one you can have cheap. I ordered the wrong one the first time and just kept it. Everything on the car has less than 1,000 miles on it. The air filter is a new K&N.

I made notes on every run, and I'm keeping them to review and update each time I take it to the track. It's mostly just a street car for fun, but I think I may have caught the "drag bug" cuz I'm already wanting to fix a few things and go back to make at least one good run.

Dave
 

[bn69stang]

Congrats Dave get the bugs worked out and the next trip will be even more fun , and sometime this summer we will meet up there and run our cars .. I m excited to get my car there soon and see what the 434 inch 28 will do .. It s addicting huh ? .. But glad you had fun and it was a safe outing .. Bud

[cammerfe]

I hope you realize that, just like malaria, once you get the 'drag' bug you'll have it, in some form, for the rest of your life!

KS

[fastback 427]

Glad you had fun Ratbird!  Nothing like rowin  through the gears with a toploader and an fe What was your 60 ft and MPH? MPH is the true test of HP and when you tackle the few issues you have watch that. Seems like fuel to me too, but don't rule out what the others have said too. Lots of new parts have been bad from the get go. Good luck and keep us posted!

[Ratbird]

I'll try to get the 60ft and mph numbers up here tonight. The first two or 3 runs I was way too fast on the clutch and spun em' so those will be slow. On all but the first run I had the stumbling motor, usually in 3rd gear, although once it happened right at the end of first and even into second. I actually finished one pass in 3rd gear at 6000 rpm. That was a bad idea cuz for the last couple hundred feet I wasn't gaining any real speed.
The good is that I never missed a gear, and I was power shifting all the way. And if you could feel my mechanical clutch pedal you understand what an accomplishment that was. Right after I got my new motor and clutch setup my Z-bar actually cracked a weld so I had to reinforce it.

3 pedals may not be as fast, but they're a blast!

Anyway, back to work.

[Ratbird]

Dang, I can't find my time slips anywhere. They'll show up sooner or later.
I did put the speeds, ET's, and reaction times into a document for future reference. My top speed was anywhere from 90- 94mph.

Can you guys recommend what type fuel line to use? I prefer something that is easy to work with. I know my local Autozone loans out brake line flaming tools. I'm pretty sure they'll have the same for fuel lines.

Thx, Dave J

[bn69stang]

Dave you should run 3/8 inch line from tank to carb , and get a 3/8 inch pick up as well along with the same filter . I ve been down that road already .. All big block car s came 3/8 inch line .. Bud

[drdano]

Any ideas what would cause the car to go flat during a run? I've never experienced valve float, but I image what I was experiencing feels like that. However, it happened once at about 4000 rpms in first gear. Another time it happened in 1st and 2nd, and another time it happened in 3rd. Usually around the 4500 - 5300 rpm range. It was a lot hotter than the car is used to. I had to let it cool down between runs because it was up to 215 degrees.

Dave, what track are you running at?  I had the exact same symptoms at Bandimere last year and turns out it was running out of fuel.  Acts just like the ignition was cutting out the same way you describe.  I didn't fully verify the problem until I got a run out on the road recorded with my AFR computer feeding the fuel pressure in that I could see when the RPMs fell on their face the fuel pressure was dropping quick.  http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1297.msg14936#msg14936

As others have stated, thats what I'd look at first...that 5/16" OEM fuel line is probably the culprit. 

[Ratbird]

Thx gents, I'll get to the new fuel line in the next month or so for sure. Bud, what is a 3/8 pick up? Is that the gas tank pick up? I believe my fitting on the gas tank is welded into the tank so i don't know how I would make it larger?

[machoneman]

It is the gas tank pickup. On most, the pickup and sending unit are combined in a removable piece that drops into the tank. It's been a long time since I've even seen a 'Bird like yours but if the fitting is welded, you need to drill it out and have a 3/8th's line welded back in. That or figure out how to use the existing sender disc by drilling a hole in it and welding a spout ala' a '63 ford.

http://www.classiccarautoparts.com/images/pics/S-F4WOV.jpg

[Ratbird]

Thx Bob, mine is like this one and has the pick up built into the bottom drivers side corner; http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-1958-1960-Thunderbird-T-Bird-gas-fuel-tank-MADE-IN-CANADA-In-Stock-/131184363022?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

There is a drain plug on the opposite side bottom corner. I think I'll see what size the drain plug is and see if I can maybe put a fitting there. Either that, or I'll maybe see about changing out to a unit like you showed and plug the bottom two holes. The only problem with that is that the line would be exposed in the trunk and I wouldn't be able to put anything in the truck unless it was secured down - wouldn't want items in the truck to bend or break it.

Dave J

[thatdarncat]

Forgive me, I've never looked that close at the gas tank of a '59 so I could be wrong, but if your tank is like the one in the link the sender and pickup assembly goes in the hole at the top of the photo opposite the filler neck. That would be at the top front of your trunk. Are you sure someone didn't modify yours? If it does turn out yours has a sender and pickup assembly similar to the one in Bob's link a larger pickup tube can be added to the disk. You may even want to retain the smaller diameter original pickup tube on the disk to use as a return someday if you changed to electric fuel pump. Maybe take another look in the trunk?

[Lenz]

The setup Ratbird described kinda reminds me of what I had in my '57 Ford Tudor.  The fuel draw line was at the tank bottom with a drain plug opposite.  the tank looked a lot like the one in the photo with a behind the gas plate filler neck, only narrower.  The fuel gage sending unit did go thru a smaller diameter disc in the tank center top you could access through the trunk.  The tank was vented through a tube that snaked around in the left rear quarter and exited somewhere below.

[Ratbird]

Len is right on the money, it's just like he described except I don't know about a vent of any kind. I replaced the original tank and kept it completely stock. As far as I know the gas cap is the vent. I had to order the correct cap, there are tons of different ones that fit, but you need the correct one to go with the original tank. Whenever I remove the cap I get a big "hiss" from the built up pressure. I believe the vented cap lets air in, but not out???
I'll double check the line at the tank as soon as I can, but my memory says it's a flare fitting with the nut on the fuel line - 5/16 inch.

regards, Dave J
 

[Lenz]

Dave, that heavy pressure build does not sound right to me.  I've seen slight amounts before as though the cap would permit a pound or two (my '74 F250 did it in hot weather), but never as heavy as you seem to be describing.  The vent tube in my '57 was 1/4" hard line that came up through the trunk floor at the extreme left and exited in the fuel tank filler tunnel behind the license plate.

If I'm wrong about the pressure I'm sure other members can correct, maybe your gas cap is at the root of your troubles or was designed to work in conjunction with another venting component?

[drdano]

Whenever I remove the cap I get a big "hiss" from the built up pressure. I believe the vented cap lets air in, but not out???

That is correct.  For emissions pressure is let in, but not out.  My Galaxie did the same thing.  Last summer in the heat I stopped at a gas station to tank up, went to unscrew the cap and the pressure blew the cap right out of my hand.  I couldn't find a vented cap that would vent both directions, so I drilled a super small hole that I think will help.

[machoneman]

I have seen poorly made vented caps that did nothing of the kind.  While the cap itself had the requisite vent hole, the design and placement (at the edge) of the gasket totally sealed the tank, hence no venting!

Try this: pop the cap and leave it off,  duct tape the entire filler opening, poke a 1/8th" hole at the top edge of the tape and take a drive.

On edit: yes, all modern caps only allow air in, not out. Keep in mind that pretty much all older cars had a separate steel vent line (some with a rubber hose section) to vent gas fumes under the car. If that vent tube is blocked with decades of crud and the cap is sealed (non-vented) that could be your issue. 

[Grbmaverickmo]

My 54 use to have the same issue on the top end. It was the gas cap not venting the gas tank must have been vacuuming tite and the pump couldn`t pull anymore fuel. Drilled a small hole inside the vent on the cap and it worked fine at the track. Sounds goofy but it worked for me

[Ratbird]

Hm, I'm a little confused. For starters I think I'll ask the guys at the "squarebirds.org" web site. They are experts on these old T-birds and will know what kind of cap it should have stock, and how it should work.

My gas tank is only a year old and doesn't have any kind of tubing or venting lines or hoses. The original that I removed was the same - identical. The pressure I feel when removing the gas cap depends on how much gas is in the tank, and how much sun is shinning on the trunk. I'm pretty sure it's OK the way it is. Sadly, I can't really test it because the drag strip is 100 miles away, and we have no roads anywhere around here to make a few hard runs.

I'll look inside the feed tube and see if there is a tube coming up. I'll also check out the inside of the cap to see that it is OK.

stay tuned....... 

[machoneman]

Good idea but....

If the tanks (old or new) didn't have any welded-on vent tube, the OEM tank had to have had a vented gas cap....or else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz95_VvTxZM

Btw, this is not a photo-shopped  vid. Having working for tank truck carriers, rest assured all at one time had a similar over the road tanker that got sucked in when the driver forgot to hit the vacuum break lever on the top, usually over the manhole cover,  before starting up the pump to empty the tanker. Ouch!

[Ratbird]

WOW! that's a lot of pressure in that video.

I've been away so I'm only just getting back to this.
My tank has no tube etc coming up to the cap. The cap has a plastic piece on the inside with small holes in it, I'm sure it's a vented cap and correct. What I'll look at tonight is the outside of the cap to make sure it's not got something impeding the air coming in. I wish I would have known or thought of this at the track. I would have tried the tape and small hole idea then.

Dave