Starter recommendations?

[cjshaker]

I'll bet it does work. Cables get hot at battery/solenoid when this happens, cluing that their ability to provide enough current to the starter has been exceeded. Numerous stories of guys stepping up the cable size with good results. Doubling cables better yet. I'll look through YT and see if there's anything there.

Every car is different, and so is every situation. 95% of my driving is fairly local or mild trips, which usually always has a cool down time when shut off. BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.

I've been making my own cables out of welding wire for a long time. I also use soldered battery ends and solder copper lugs on the starter side. I always use 0 or 00 gauge wire. I never had issues using a stock type or Powermaster starter, until Drag Week. So like I said, it depends on your situation and the end use. But you're welcome to follow your intuition, rather than my experience.

[FElony]

I'll bet it does work. Cables get hot at battery/solenoid when this happens, cluing that their ability to provide enough current to the starter has been exceeded. Numerous stories of guys stepping up the cable size with good results. Doubling cables better yet. I'll look through YT and see if there's anything there.

Every car is different, and so is every situation. 95% of my driving is fairly local or mild trips, which usually always has a cool down time when shut off. BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.

I've been making my own cables out of welding wire for a long time. I also use soldered battery ends and solder copper lugs on the starter side. I always use 0 or 00 gauge wire. I never had issues using a stock type or Powermaster starter, until Drag Week. So like I said, it depends on your situation and the end use. But you're welcome to follow your intuition, rather than my experience.

Intuition? You forgot my past career, didn't you?

Never had a heat soak issue, but then I don't tend to drive a headered, carbed vehicle in triple digits here in the desert. This may change in the coming year. I do remember legions of Chevy guys with headers having that problem back in the 70'/80's in Cali. I don't recall what their fix was.

My "intuition" would also point out that, over the years, the CCA rating of batteries has doubled or tripled that of the old cells, but the size of the cables most people are employing really have not increased much. This would certainly negate much of the advantage. I assume you also used the same welding cable to make a battery-to-block ground. What goes around, comes around. 

[FElony]

Here's an article some people may find useful, written by some wannabe with, like, 5 whole posts here.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/easy-fix-avoid-1958-1964-big-block-ford-starter-failure/

[TorinoBP88]

I got the Robb MC with a trunion support, he gets my vote! I loved it. Uses a Ford V10 starter motor as the base for it too!

[Nightmist66]

I do remember legions of Chevy guys with headers having that problem back in the 70'/80's in Cali. I don't recall what their fix was.

I believe it was using a Ford part. Pretty common for Chevys to have heat soak problems with the starter solenoid mounted directly on the starter. Install a Ford remote mount solenoid and jumper the original solenoid and problem solved.....


I haven't had any issues with a factory starter. Even on our racer with a 13.5:1 roller. I'm planning on using the same starter on my new motor with 13:1. Street/strip, so I'll see how it holds up. On cables, ALWAYS get as fine stranded cable as you can. More strands=more better. Look into the stereo cables. Nice fine strand and very flexible too. You can pick it up cheaper than welding cable, too. That's what I'm putting on mine now. Soldered ends as well.

[Dan859]

I'm curious about using cable with finer strands.  Why does that work better?  As a very electrically-challenged person I have no clue.  Why do more strands mean less resistance? 

[cjshaker]

On cables, ALWAYS get as fine stranded cable as you can. More strands=more better. Look into the stereo cables. Nice fine strand and very flexible too. You can pick it up cheaper than welding cable, too. That's what I'm putting on mine now. Soldered ends as well.

Contrary to popular belief, stranded cable of the same gauge is not capable of carrying more current or amperage. They are also larger in size than a solid wire of the same gauge, while carrying the same amperage rating. The upside to stranded is the flexibility and resistance to fatigue from movement. So actually, you just want a stranded cable of the proper size, with no finer strands than what is required for movement. Welding cable has much finer strands than typical automotive wire and is pretty much overkill as it is. Something you have to watch out for on welding cable is that it's coating isn't as heat resistant as automotive cable, so care has to be taken when routing, to stay away from any major heat sources. It's also less cut resistant, so passing through any bulkhead or panel requires good protection.

Edit: I actually need to change what I said after refreshening my memory. DC does in fact gain some from using stranded wire over solid, but I don't think you need to go overboard because super fine strands present their own problem, like more capillary action for corrosion issues etc.

[Bolted to Floor]

I'm curious about using cable with finer strands.  Why does that work better?  As a very electrically-challenged person I have no clue.  Why do more strands mean less resistance?

The theory I remember from apprenticeship school is the electricity does not travel through the middle of the wire, but on the outside edge of it. So the more strands will provide more area for the electricity in a given wire size.

Something else to think about is the type of wire insulation, there are many different applications. If the wire insulation will not handle the heat of its environment, then you're still not getting the full potential of the battery cranking amps to the starter. A quick Google search describes "welding cable" insulation types as durable and tough. Not all will hold up to petroleum based products. The one heat rating I found was from a Lincoln Welder for 30* Celsius, about 86* F.

From the battery to the solenoid and solenoid to the starter, I ran a #2 type GXL SGX wire rated for 50 Volts and 125* C, about 250* F. Its suitable for automotive applications and meets some of Ford and Chrysler specifications, according the Wire Barn website.

Knock on wood, no starting issues yet.

Edit, I will add that the insulation is the driving force in how a wire should be used. One aspect is heat. The more amps you push through a wire, the more heat that gets generated. The more heat resistant an insulation, the greater the capacity it can carry for a given size.

Corrected the insulation type for cables

[Nightmist66]

I could be wrong, I have been many times before. That's just my basic understanding of it. I'm no electrical engineer or anything. The other things I gather is that the finer strands can dissipate heat better in prolonged/higher current situations. The flexibility is a bonus. The coarse is also a little more prone to breakage from being stiffer and more susceptible to vibration.


Edit: Here is a comparison between the stereo cable and a typical parts store cable of the same size. The strands on the left do not have any gaps between them, just high and low spots that look like it. It appears to me, that given the same gauge rating, the left has much more available conductor within the same rated size. One of the reasons I wanted to use it, and I got it for free. 

[FElony]

 BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.

For as cheap as it would be to try, don't you owe it to yourself to try? Afraid I'm right?

[olman]

I bought a Wilson starter from NAPA on someones advice pertaining to clearance of the cast long tube headers. The terminal comes off the rear plate of the starter and allows a better routing of the cable up to the front of the engine. Before this starter I used a set of Mr Gasket header gaskets on the passenger side to gain a little more clearance from the Battery post to header.
   The part number for the Wilson starter is 91-02-5821.  I think it also fits a 429- 351C.

[cjshaker]

 BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.

For as cheap as it would be to try, don't you owe it to yourself to try? Afraid I'm right?

I have. Hence the word "experience".

[Bolted to Floor]

I could be wrong, I have been many times before. That's just my basic understanding of it. I'm no electrical engineer or anything. The other things I gather is that the finer strands can dissipate heat better in prolonged/higher current situations. The flexibility is a bonus. The coarse is also a little more prone to breakage from being stiffer and more susceptible to vibration.


Edit: Here is a comparison between the stereo cable and a typical parts store cable of the same size. The strands on the left do not have any gaps between them, just high and low spots that look like it. It appears to me, that given the same gauge rating, the left has much more available conductor within the same rated size. One of the reasons I wanted to use it, and I got it for free. 

You're not alone on being wrong, I'm right there with you.

I like FREE, it doesn't come around often for car parts!! Just make sure the insulation is good for use as a starter cable. It should have some markings to identify insulation type, voltage, and or heat.

[FElony]

 BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.

For as cheap as it would be to try, don't you owe it to yourself to try? Afraid I'm right?

I have. Hence the word "experience".

OK you win.

[happystang]

I thought I'd update this thread with my choice! The Powermaster stock style starter came in, it looks like they've fixed the issue with the start nose hitting the flywheel.

The offending area came nicely machined from the factory- it installed with no issues!

IMG_8295.JPG by armon7, on Flickr