Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..

[HolmanMoodyStroppeVet]

Sounds fun Bud

I am doing block upgrades on some past projects too and have 2 new Shelby blocks if anybody wants one.  I bought 3 for a Fuel effort, the team lost funding and the car went to a late model, easier, cheaper sadly. Sold all 3 to a really fast friend here, and said, what the heck, got 3 more....LOL   To build.  Built 1,, have 2 and can get more close by, through a dealer. They are tough and pretty. My favorite if the build has the budget.

Your Ed heads will be easy to sell should you decide to get the Survival heads.  I realy like those a lot.

And they are cast by Edelbrock, he told us, under contract from his design, patterns and related stuff, which is a big plus to me. I know and trust Ed since way back.  We did R&D for them back when.  Intake development/dyno/race tests. for a given race task , on FE's. Pre release stuff. Lots of fun.

I also would not rule out building a High Riser some day.

[bn69stang]

Thanks for the info , and help with idea s and would love to build a high riser at some point or a cammer . 480 -500 inch range , just think of popping the hood on a 1969 mach 1 and see ng a sohc motor  .. Bud

[BH107]

Thanks for the info , and help with idea s and would love to build a high riser at some point or a cammer . 480 -500 inch range , just think of popping the hood on a 1969 mach 1 and see ng a sohc motor  .. Bud

How about popping the hood of a REAL BOSS 429 only to find a SOHC 427 in its place!

[bn69stang]

Yes that is awesome i have to say ,

[ScotiaFE]

The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

[LuxurySportCoupe]

The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

For "box stock ported" heads, they only outflow Barry's as cast heads by 3 cfm at .600". With a minor port work, the Felony head will own the BBM head. I'd rather buy American anyway.

[Barry_R]

This did not post clearly from the spreadsheet - but should at least give some information for my heads versus the Korean ones.
The data is not directly comparable given variances in benches, geography, prep and such.  But it is still directionally useful.

The first column is from Joe's SF600 when he initially tested the first pair of my castings
The second column is mine - using a local SF1020 bench
The third column is mine using a local SF600 bench
The fourth column is Rob's data from the Korean head on a SF600 bench 

Intake   Survival JDC SF600   Survival SF1020   Survival SF600   BBM per McQuarie
.100   65   62      74
.200   135   139   148   147
.300   197   207   209   211
.400   251   251   255   251
.500   268   268   279   284
.600   284   285   282   285
.700   294   292   289   292
            
Exhaust            
.100   54   46      53
.200   103   99   107   108
.300   142   142   148   149
.400   175   177   185   183
.500   186   200   200   211
.600   193   205   206   
.700   198   206   209   224

Based upon this the heads would appear to be reasonably competitive in terms of flow.

[Joe-JDC]

I know Barry's heads can go over 350cfm with hand porting, and with larger valves, the 369cfm is certainly within reason.  I was able to get over 260cfm on the exhaust without a tube, and I am still working on the ports on my heads.  I never intended to start a contest between fellow builders, just tried to answer a simple question.  The Edelbrock heads are tricky to get to flow over 330cfm, and if you make a simple/small mistake, they cannot be simply tweaked to regain the flow without welding metal back.  Edelbrock casting techniques are excellent as far as porosity and density across the board.  I have ported several sets of Edelbrock heads for other style engines, and always found the castings solid.  With the exception of a few seats standing proud on other heads, the Edelbrock castings are excellent to work with.  Barry's heads are excellent.  I would be glad to port all three side by side and flow side by side for any comparison just to document how they fare with similiar valve sizing and using the same flow bench.  Joe-JDC.

[BH107]

The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

Can we officiall start calling them Kia heads? Or Hyundai? When I'm in the market for heads I'll stick with something made in the USA and support the businesses that have kept our FE engines going until now, even if it costs a little more.

My company fights against cheaper offshore products, and they have put alot of good American companies out of business.

[bn69stang]

It s Barry s felony head , and a tremec tko 600 and a 4.165 bore stroker kit - 4.25 crank , all of which he sells .. I call that one stop shopping   lol .. Thanks guy s for all the input  Bud

[blykins]

I personally have no issue with foreign made parts, and I would assume the other builders don't either, or they wouldn't be using Scat cranks and rods. 

I don't have a dog in the head manufacturer fight, I'll use whatever is a good choice for the engine I'm building, as long as it's not junk.   I'll use a Pond head, Edelbrock head, BBM head, Dove, Blue Thunder, and I'll even use Barry's head. 

However, I would find it hard to speak against a foreign made head, while I'm typing on a keyboard made in Japan, attached to a computer made in India, while sipping coffee out of a coffee maker made in China. 

I got 308 cfm out of a BBM head out of the box, with just a 50° seat angle, along with a Manley valve....at .600" lift.   Haven't used a set on a running engine yet, but I can imagine that they would be strong performers. 

We are getting 350/270 out of the Pond heads for the big inch engines that I do, with a CNC ported intake side, and a cleaned up exhaust side. 

Lots of good parts out there to choose from.

Still waiting on Barry to send me a head to check out.  ;-)

[ScotiaFE]

The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

For "box stock ported" heads, they only outflow Barry's as cast heads by 3 cfm at .600". With a minor port work, the Felony head will own the BBM head. I'd rather buy American anyway.

The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

Can we officiall start calling them Kia heads? Or Hyundai? When I'm in the market for heads I'll stick with something made in the USA and support the businesses that have kept our FE engines going until now, even if it costs a little more.

My company fights against cheaper offshore products, and they have put alot of good American companies out of business.

A couple of elephants in the room here.
1. The BBM is the best bang for the buck.
2. All Edelbrock junk is foreign, for me anyways.
3. Barry built his business selling Chinese cranks and rods. No offense Barry, but....
4. The Felony heads are 2 months plus away from being in stock. According to the web site.
5. Korea is a major trading partner and Ally with Canada and Harper just signed a Free Trade deal with them.
6. Pretty sure the USA is heavily entrenched in Korea.

I will be ordering a set of BBM's as soon as my CC recovers from the last round of assaults I committed on it.
And I will be happy and proud to have a set. 

[sumfoo1]

next question is... does the T&D race rocker setup bolt to all of them ok.... i mean between them and harland sharp there aren't many other rockers i'd trust at .6-.7" of lift for any rev range able to take advantage of a 350cfm flowing ported head.

I really like the fact that this board has kept everything relatively civil  for  the conversation going on.

To be honest i haven't caught Barry saying "my heads are better because they are made in the USA" for that fact, he hasn't even said his heads are better at all.

Also we have to look at combustion chamber shape too.  As flow is one of the largest contributors in hp making but if you can't run any decent compression or timing without knocking all the flow in the world either won't make power or will install windows in your block.

My engine has pond heads.... mostly because when i started my build Barry's heads weren't even announced as being in development. 

Also I've seen as many casting imperfections (if not more) come from edelbrock tagged as made in the USA as i have heads from anywhere else.

I guess.. make the best part and i will find it and buy it...  i think we have plenty of good choices now... i really think barry's  heads are one of the better ones since they were designed not only to maximize flow but to work with the common intakes without welding and patching etc.

for the two long did not read folks

Do the research and buy the best part... i do go american in a tie but that's the only time i use location as a deciding factor.





Somewhat off topic...

Scat does sell Chinese parts and in my experience Chinese metallurgy can fall a little short of what i would trust.  BUT, the bottom end parts on most big blocks are so huge it doesn't matter especially if you buy from a distributor that matches sets and does some QC of their own.

To be honest i think almost every cheap H beam rod made by eagle, scat, manley etc... are all made over seas... possibly in the same factory, if you look at them side by side. My experience is mostly with them in subarus... I've seen them fail at 300whp... I've seen them run for 60k miles on 400whp with a less conservative tune which as you all know is a 4 cylinder with short narrow rod and a ton of drivetrain loss.. meaning i would easily trust them to 600-700hp in a v8 beyond that i'd go crower, carrillo, pauter etc.. if steel and any of the huge aluminum pieces...

Also my wife's daily driver is a kia, so korean stuff doesn't bother me... her soul is a well made car especially for 17k fully loaded brand new.
(i drive a 9 month old jeep wrangler rubicon that's already on it's second water pump... GO DETROIT! ( full disclosure i doubt the water pump was made in the us)) 

[Drew Pojedinec]

Either way, we should all be REALLY excited.
Wasn't ALL that long ago the choices were, Edelbrock or stock.  Blue Thunder for the big bore race engines.

It is awesome to have the options we currently have.  For my broke arse, I'll sit on the sidelines, ignore the flow tests and see how they all work on engines yall are building.
Hopefully someday the FE will have a head like the FordRacing/Kaase scj heads, high velocity and stupidly high flows for the cost of the heads.  Support 700hp outta the box with maybe a valve job.

To be honest i haven't caught Barry saying "my heads are better because they are made in the USA" for that fact, he hasn't even said his heads are better at all.

If I recall Barry said "oh snap, those look like they'll be close to my heads"  when he saw the bbm heads.  Gotta give props to that, real professionals the folks here are.

[blykins]

The T&D race set would require milling of any head, of course, but they should bolt up just fine since the valve spacing is pretty close to the same.  On the Pond heads with the T&D race stuff, I've had to swap shims from side to side to get the valve tip in a  better spot, but that's not a huge issue. 

As far as Chinese metallurgy, I would probably have to disagree with you, as Eagle FE cranks are known to be the weak links as far as FE cranks.  I've seen numerous Eagle FE cranks fail between the 2-3 FE forums that I'm a member of, and I haven't seen one Scat fail.   Even the cast Scat cranks will take a pretty good beating. 

I made this point on the other forum, I don't mind using off-shore stuff as long as it's good off-shore stuff.  To me, anything with the Procomp name on it is junk, I won't use any Eagle products, "Hawk Racing", etc., etc.  Shoot, even the  Callies Compstar line is offshore, machined in the US, but I wouldn't have any reservations against that line.