FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: TimeWarpF100 on December 02, 2018, 09:20:19 PM
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208 hp 352
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What kind of economy are you getting now?
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275 hp 390 2v
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Don't have all the specs - but a solid cam with 233@.050 in a 482 inch engine should have plenty of vacuum.
Something else might be going on there.
What are you running for timing at idle and what idle speed?
Don't see many 9.5" converters with 2400 stall. Was that spec'd for a 427 as well? The bigger cubes will raise the effective stall speed.
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I have a solid not roller though,with 234 @ 050, 282, 571 in a 400 and i get 11-12 inch vaccum
Power brakes work just fine
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275 hp 390 2v
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I have two in progress, one EFI and one not, both have very similar issues I have to contend with for the builds.
You said ICL of 104, really need to know LSA to determine overlap (or if cam card says that too, even better)
Vacuum will be affected by overlap, intake valve centerline, and timing (and of course ring seal, valve seal, elevation, air pressure, etc, but those won't change with a cam change)
1. Wider LSA = more vacuum and better mileage
I don't think your lobes are bad, likely fine for what you are using it for, although if it was originally picked for a smaller engine. it's likely tighter LSA than you'd need anyway
If its 108 LSA overlap = 74 degrees
If its 110 LSA overlap = 70 degrees
I'd like to see you in the low 60s, so the same cam ground on a 112 would be 66 degrees, on a 114 would be 62 degrees.
Spreading the centers will be dramatic, idle will mellow out, likely lose a little torque at WOT, (not necessarily at part throttle, it might even feel stronger) but also will likely be more pleasant to drive.
The issue then comes down to how mellow do you want it and what else could you do while you are in there? Depending on what the cam is now I'd make my decision on 112 or 114.
This won't only help for braking though, it'll also help mileage and make it happier in OD
2. Later intake centerline = slightly less vacuum. However, you can't really go any earlier with that lobe or compression and I don't think you want to add cam
Sticking with the ICL at 104, you are smack on what a normal hot rod should be in a 8.20 DCR range. So after the 112 or 114 gets you some vacuum you'd still be fine on pump gas, however, you could also rock the cam back a few degrees, and end up with a 106 or 108 ICL. Seems backwards, but it could gain you a little more on top and give you some room for a little more initial timing and room to play around a bit. Not to mention, it will likely allow you to get that thing to run on regular gas. FWIW, I can run my 489 EFI FE on anything at all, and only the worst fuel will rattle. I usually run mid grade or premium, but no fear if 100 miles away and I need gas, anything works.
I don't think you HAVE to run a later ICL but I would if buying a new cam for this application as it has evolved
3. Ignition timing = More gets you more vacuum
Less overlap NEEDS less ignition timing, but with an ICL change, you might be able to add a bit more and get even more vacuum
Lots of overlap wants lots of advance, less overlap needs less, however, by retarding the cam a couple degrees, you get to a DCR of about 8.06, still good, but gives you some room. Not sure what your curve is now, but I'd like to see a minimum of 20 BTDC as soon as it fires, then have it come all in by about 2700. Nice thing is you can change it every 15 minutes until you are happy, easy to do electronically. FWIW, my EFI 489 is at 12 degrees for crank and adds 20 when it fires. This is how Ford does it in the 5.0 Mustangs as well.
So, would like to hear where you are now with the timing curve, idle timing, and LSA but, my initial gut feeling is:
288/292 (same lobes), 112 or 114 LSA, on 106 (or maybe even 108 ICL), and a timing curve that pops a bunch of advance in after it fires.
You could also temporarily try adding some lash, not sure if you lashed it tighter than designed (I almost ALWAYS do) but less lash should drive up vacuum too, unfortunately it can hammer a solid roller pretty badly when too loose. Neat test though
One question though, why not hydraulic roller next time around?
FWIW
- on my EFI 489, I run 286/294 110 LSA on 105 (70 degrees overlap), but no power brakes
- on my EFI 461 I am going 280/286 112 LSA on 106 (59 degrees overlap) with power brakes
- on the carbed 461 with power brakes we are doing, I am trying to make a little more power, and likely going 288/292 114 LSA on 106 (62 degrees of overlap) or a single pattern 292/292 114 LSA on 106 (64 degrees of overlap)
Hope this helps, if you can give more info on the things I asked above, will dive in deeper after work
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Just saw the updated posts after I sent mine in.
First thing I would do is see if the FITECH allows you to kick in timing after start. I'd love to see you sitting at 20-22 at idle with EFI, then let the idle air control motor adjust idle speed to where you want it, don't use timing to set idle speed. You might get close enough
Still would like to hear LSA, because regardless, overlap makes for a dirty chamber at idle, timing will help, maybe a lot, but overlap is what it is, and at idle, the sound we love is the engine not running very efficently.
Additionally, I have been meaning to get to know FITECH software to help some local guys out here, let me see what i can download tomorrow and I may be able to help with a timing curve
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275 hp 390 2v
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Looking back at what I have in my Dyno Program it shows Intake Centerline 104 Exhaust Centerline 108
Lobe CL 106.0
Valve Overlap 44.0
Cam Accel Rating 4.22
I will get a pic of cam card that came with cam
I'll check back in in the AM, but if it's 106 LSA, that's really a cam for a small CID carb'd engine IMHO. That'd be 78 degrees of overlap. Additionally, that oxygen sensor won't be too happy as it's getting cooled down by a lot of raw fuel and making bad recommendations.
Going 112 LSA with the lobes you have, or even a bit more lobe at 114 could completely change that truck's behavior.
BTW, Spreading the centers doesn't make them sound that wimpy either, here is my 10:1 445 with only 58 degrees of overlap, 280/230 112 LSA solids on 106, dual plane intake and carb, and 12 degrees of initial. That was idling around 850, not EFI, but a smaller cam than I'd recommend for you and still has some lope. It was a REAL strong 445, but I had block problems, so it's coming back as an EFI 461
https://youtu.be/Uf3D5c9ZZfs
Here's the 489 with EFI and 70 degrees of overlap and the 22 degrees of timing at idle. It gets about 16-18 mpg when driving easy with 4.11s and a TKO-600 with a .64 (nowhere near that when I am hammering it
https://youtu.be/AtTEvZ2uQmA
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275 hp 390 2v
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275 hp 390 2
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Let me tell you, I saw the cam card on my phone and got out of bed to go on the computer
In my experience, that cam is decent for a high compression carb'd 390 or maybe a 427 but not one that would rev too high. it really has no business in that build, and I am the guy who doesn't think cams are that critical for EFI if you take the time to tune around them
I don't even think it's a decent cam for a carbed 482, I think with even with carbs they should have spread the centers and given you more lobe.
It sucks, but that truck will be faster, nicer and better on fuel with cam that matches. Try getting some initial in it, if you haven't figured out the FITECH curve, I'll look at it over the next few days and report back, but there are some sharp cats on here running FITECH that may be able to chime in on how to get some initial in there and keep idle where you want i
I'd love to stay up all night but its 11PM and I need to be up at 5AM. Happy to chat here, by PM, or by email, that truck will be so much happier when cammed right and then you can tune and really get to see what EFI can do for you.
I still think you need to get overlap way down, but also think you could use more .050 too. Same boat as that carb'd 461 I am doing. Spread the centers so you can get some lobe in there
Thanks for getting back so quickly
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Found the cam card! Going from memory not so good . .
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/CalypsoCoralBoss302/1966%20F100%20482/Engine/AD8B6EC6-AEEB-455E-8824-8C1DE6581DD9.jpg)
Holy cow. 78° of overlap and that's supposed to be optimal for EFI?
I understand that he was trying to grind you a solid roller that would live easily on the street, but the LSA should have been much, much wider and the advertised durations a little lower.
That cam should have been a hydraulic roller. For the rpms that you'll be turning, it would eliminate all risk.
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So, looking at your combo, and starting with gearing
You have an 8.6:1 1st gear ratio, although the loose converter helps that a little,. High gear is going to be 3.50 or in OD 2.73
If I was writing the checks, I'd love to see a tighter converter and more gear, but it is what it is. If that's an option you may want to consider and go with a 3.89 or 3.91, that would help around town more than on the highway, because with the loose converter and ending up at 3.04:1 or it won't really contribute to highway mileage, but both together would make the truck happier. Not required but something to think about later
Second, the TW isn't doing you any favors, but I am not afraid of too much intake if you are pulling vacuum, just remember, your FITech is a precise electronic carb, so at low RPM that intake isn't going to be as happy as a med riser dual plane would have. Fuel won't be happy to hang in suspension when the air isn't flowing and that's a big intake. Not a necessity to change an intake but it's pushing back at you a little.
I do have to ask though, where are you getting the water temp info for the FITech?
Just want to make sure that the water temp sensor is in the old gauge sender hole, it needs real clean data, I usually add a second bung so I can run a gauge, if you haven't and need a gauge, move that gauge to the thermostat housing, and be sure the FITech coolant temp sensor is on the intake
Now, Barry's heads are good, you don't need any significant split to get that motor to breathe, so I would likely do a single pattern cam, and I will warn you, I REALLY think this motor is a natural for a hydraulic roller, but delivering as requested first :)
For solids, I would run a single pattern cam designed to build vacuum and be happy in OD. It won't have the thumpy idle and will likely sound somewhere between my truck and the Mustang in my videos.
There are many ways to skin the cat, however my initial WAG would be
Comp lobe 6057 lobes, intake and exhaust, 282 adv/242 @ .050, on 106 with an LSA of 112. You'll match or gain power, add about 200 RPM at the HP peak, and likely pull quite a bit more vacuum going from 78 degrees overlap to 58.
Just giving you an initial WAG because I am off to work, don't spend money yet, we can get closer, but that is the type of cam that would make the EFI happy, make the truck less sloppy down low, and pull harder on the intake at part throttle. Combine that with some tuning, it'd likely make it dramatically more fun.
We can even go milder depending how close you want it to the Ecoboost curve, but likely you'd want a converter swap at some point.
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I'll second Ross' thoughts.
My first response is that the engine really needs a hydraulic roller. Running a solid roller cam on the street for an engine working well under 6000 rpm is a risk with really no reward, other than the sound. Now, I will say that some guys make it work, and if you're not wanting to put 15-20k miles on the truck, you'll probably do fine. However, for the long run, solid rollers just really aren't the correct choice.
My second response is that switching to a hydraulic roller will require different lifters, as well as probably different length pushrods, depending on the lifters you have now. That's a big chunk of change to shoot for, and I could understand the desire to keep with the parts that you have.
My third response is that whoever spec'd that camshaft needs to go back to Camshaft 101. I may give him the benefit of the doubt that not all necessary information was disclosed to him at the time of ordering, but something with 78° of overlap makes power brakes pretty much useless as you've found out, and can make tuning EFI stuff a little rougher. As a matter of fact, most of the self-learning TBI units actually give you an overlap number to shoot for when ordering the camshaft.
I haven't thumbed through the catalog, but something around Ross' suggestion of 242/242 @ .050" with a 110 or 112 LSA would work really well. You could even potentially match the lift so you can reuse valve springs.
There are several lobes that would get you down to around 60-65° overlap, where you need to be.
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275 hp 390 2v
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275 hp 390 2v
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275 hp 390 2v
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275 hp 390 2v
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Can this combo make a honest 600 HP @ Flywheel and still live on the street?
What would Estimated HP/TQ be with so far suggested Hydraulic Roller Cam?
I am going to have to live with most all on this build with pretty much only a Cam/Lifter swap
The amount of time & $$ spent on building the 1 7/8 to 2" Step headers along with the custom Stainless exhaust are Items I simply cannot change.
I now have more $$ in this truck than any 4 other builds.
The 482 simply got the Wrong Heart (Cam) its now effecting my heart rate . .
Ok, so that cam wasn't meant for that engine......that makes me have more faith in humanity.
What are your exact plans for this truck? Is its typical use going to be for long drives? Is this going to be a daily driver?
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275 hp 390 2v
He said I could maintain the same Valve Springs
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With .634" lift, you could potentially coil bind your valve springs, if they are setup for a .580" lift camshaft. Also, if your heads are setup for somewhere around the required spring pressures, the open pressure will be much higher with more lift. Some hydraulic roller lifters are not setup to deal with a lot of spring pressure.
My goodness, I loathe cam tech lines.
What are your goals for the truck in terms of driveability? Are you aiming to make horsepower, or are you aiming for a long-distance daily driver?
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275 hp 352
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I'd almost be tempted to tell you to just jam another solid roller in there and save yourself some cost/concern. If it's not a daily driver and all you want to do is cruise a hot rod around town, then maybe you should get another solid roller that will give you functional power brakes and a little more power. You'd just be out the cost of the camshaft, instead of a cam, lifters, pushrods, etc.
Just keep in mind that, depending on what brand/quality lifters you have, you will be looking at a lifter inspection interval.
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352
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Math.
That 400mile trip “maybe” once a year, vs the 4mpg improvement.
Think I’d just up the timing as per Ross and roll with it. Reassess later.
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I'd almost be tempted to tell you to just jam another solid roller in there and save yourself some cost/concern. If it's not a daily driver and all you want to do is cruise a hot rod around town, then maybe you should get another solid roller that will give you functional power brakes and a little more power. You'd just be out the cost of the camshaft, instead of a cam, lifters, pushrods, etc.
Just keep in mind that, depending on what brand/quality lifters you have, you will be looking at a lifter inspection interval.
It will NOT be a daily driver. What would you recommend for another Solid Roller? Cost right now really is a issue. Not to mention trying to lean over the fenders to work on it for hours on end. Pretty sure the roller lifters came from Barry. Probably Comp, Crower or Crane. Better lifter 10yrs ago.
The biggest issue at this point is the lack of vacuum for your brakes?
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275 hp 352
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I'd stick another solid roller in it. Save you some bucks, would run your brakes, would help your MPG.
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352
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If you're looking at an off-the-shelfer, I don't think you're gonna get there without changing valve springs. A Comp 288R would be the closest, but it's got way more lift than your current camshaft.
I'd be looking at a custom, 284/284, 244/244 @ .050", 112 LSA, 108 ICL, .588" lift.
Should be able to use same valve springs, same lifters, same pushrods, etc. Overlap goes down to 60 from 78. That gives you plenty of vacuum, should help fuel economy since you're not pushing all your air/gas out the exhaust.
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Sounds like you've driven it enough to determine your not getting 100% out of those big brakes. True?
I ask since with an electric pump and a reservoir, you should be getting that 100%.
Have you checked the reservoir's vac, level after a short drive (gauge to the tank, even temporarily)?
Is a one-way check valve in place between the OEM booster (assuming it's still in place) and the reservoir?
Have you tried to check brake line hydraulic pressure, mainly the fronts? This does require a very hi-pressure gauge.
Do you still have an OEM proportioning valve? Generally, they should be gutted and an in-line adjustable prop. valve added.
"Biggest issue is the 8 MPG but yes brakes an issue also. I did add a Electric Vacuum pump and reservoir which helped but surely not enough to make good use of the large 14" 6p brakes."
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275 hp 352
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At 10.5 compression, and dropping the overlap back 17 degrees to 60, I'd also be concerned about fuel quality and detonation becoming an issue.
Not trying to be an arse, but when you say you have 5 projects on the back burner, how can money be the driving issue? A few hundred dollars more to make things "right" seems the better choice. JMO
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At 10.5 compression, and dropping the overlap back 17 degrees to 60, I'd also be concerned about fuel quality and detonation becoming an issue.
Not trying to be an arse, but when you say you have 5 projects on the back burner, how can money be the driving issue? A few hundred dollars more to make things "right" seems the better choice. JMO
Doug, we'd still be in the "safe" area with cylinder pressure. That's one of those things that we have to do the math on when we pick new cams.
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275 hp 352
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Glad to see the cam wasn't originally speckled for that combo.
I had used cam research several times in the late 90's early 2000's and was pleased with them.
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352 so far.
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Doug, we'd still be in the "safe" area with cylinder pressure. That's one of those things that we have to do the math on when we pick new cams.
I figured you'd be on top of that, Brent. Just pointing out the obvious ;)
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If you're looking at an off-the-shelfer, I don't think you're gonna get there without changing valve springs. A Comp 288R would be the closest, but it's got way more lift than your current camshaft.
I'd be looking at a custom, 284/284, 244/244 @ .050", 112 LSA, 108 ICL, .588" lift.
Should be able to use same valve springs, same lifters, same pushrods, etc. Overlap goes down to 60 from 78. That gives you plenty of vacuum, should help fuel economy since you're not pushing all your air/gas out the exhaust.
This is a perfect match IMHO, I wouldn't even second guess it unless you really want hyd roller.
A couple of things up front. I wasn't saying you need to change your intake or your gearing, those were only icing on the cake to make it more efficient. Your issue is a lack of tuning combined with a cam that is far from ideal for the engine
Some areas I think you really need to get to know.
Timing - Your initial timing is off 5 or so degrees, which means everything is off maybe more, maybe less, maybe the same amount. Regardless, most systems have a feature to sync the screen with the light. Then you get good data from the system. Then you can set total to what your combo wants and try all kinds of curves
Cam selection - looks like you should be on Cam 3, not sure where you are
IAC - generally throttle blades are adjusted for a desired IAC value, that gives a window for adjustment cold or hot
Throttle position - You have initial settings for a TPS, they tell the computer starting position for the blades, if you adjust blades you have to reset TPS so it knows idle and WOT, that needs to be done initially and any time you touch an idle screw on the TB with the IAC
Finally desired AFR for different things - Here's the deal, you can do much better with the cam you have, like I said looks like you would select "Cam 3" from the profile. However, it will never be perfect with so much overlap, but you may get significantly better.
If it were me, I would download directions from FITech, live on their forums, get to know the tricks and tweaks for a dual quad system and tune like crazy. If you can't get there, then do the cam. Then retune again. I will tell you this, the right tune with the right cam, will be a completely different engine than what you likely have now. Mileage will go up and power will go up while being more docile than ever when you and mama are cruising
If you need a hard copy of the instructions, contact FITech, but get to know initial setup, do some running logs, and put the old nugget to work, its a HUGE payoff as you are already seeing with just a timing tweak
I sure would love to see you go with Brent's cam, or even milder if you go hyd roller. Sorry about my recommendation error on lobes, the values were close but I was looking on the wrong page of the catalog, post surgery brain apparently I picked solid flat lobes instead of solid roller, but back in the game and Brent got to tease me by text a little to boot :)
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Glad to see the cam wasn't originally speckled for that combo.
I had used cam research several times in the late 90's early 2000's and was pleased with them.
Right now it runs surprisingly well with current tune.
I just need to learn where to go with tune next.
Prob hundreds of parameters I can change/tweak.
No doubt a proper cam made for my combo would be a huge improvement
But driveability now is quite good.
Tempted a before and after session on the chassis Dyno.
No WOT yet but it’s time. Seat of the pants feels pretty strong partial throttle up to 3500 about my max RPM so far.
Based on your comment ~"most of its time at 2000-2500rpm"
* What is your stall, MEASURED? (standing still, hard on the brakes, floor it for 2-3 seconds, no more. What does the tach read?
Based on wanting to mostly cruise at 2000-2500 and wanting good MPG, you want stall to be LESS than your cruise RPM.
Seems a stock stall 1900-2000 converter would do just fine.
Cam will probably be too big for that. Based on your other words I'd go even SMALLER on the cam than Ross/Brent suggested.
Solids idle a lot smoother than hyd cams, I'd go for a 110-112 LSA but duration about 220 hyd, 230 solid, that range.
I know, that's small but I'm just reading what you've written.
And as I think Ross noted, ditch that T-wedge for a dual plane intake.
PRoblem now will be the 10.5 CR, it might work with alum heads & blocked heat riser if you can keep it cool ie 180 F. Maybe.
But before any of that - I'd just keep tuning it like you're doing - at 3500, that's probably below peak torq!
You're not even in the power band yet!
Turn that thing to 5000-5500 and all your worries about MPG and idle vacuum will likely vanish.
For power brakes, what about a vacuum pump or reservoir?
In any case I'd measure the stall next if you haven't already.
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You can’t really go much smaller because of compression issues, as Doug was eluding to earlier. You can overcome that by using a lazy lobe, but then you’re right back to overlap issues.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to reading this.
I agree 100% on the cam comments by Ross and Brent - that 106 LSA stick is a really odd choice for a EFI 482 deal. Looks like something I would want to try in a smaller cube road race Cobra or Mustang.
Also agree with Ross' comment on timing. Until you get the timing as measured by an accurate light and pointer into the proper zone you cannot possibly get the tune up correct. There are enormous mileage and idle "opportunities" there. Someplace in that tuning setup map is a crank reference angle selection that can be tweaked until you get the hand held and the timing light to agree. That and you may want to double/triple check the distributor location relative to rotor position/rotor phasing.
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The elephants in the room, there are two, are the intake manifold and the cam. Change those. Don't get distracted by anything else.
JMO,
paulie
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352
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Good job Randy.
This is what I was eluding to earlier, tune it and see how far ya get before swapping parts.
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352
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Did you get your timing problem resolved? With the Fitech timing control, get a helper and have them hold the rpm at 2200 ish rpm. It will help to stabilize the timing off of idle. Have your helper read the timing from the handheld and compare it to what you are reading on your timing light. For example you had said your handheld said 18 while your timing light read 13. In that case, you would rotate your distributor until both your handheld and your timing light indicated 18 degrees. That should help to get your timing synced up, because in that previous example you would be about 5 degrees lower everywhere in your map. I'm not sure if you set your adjustable rotor up as in the Fitech instructions or phased it with another cap with a hole in it. When I phased mine in correctly, it was different than what Fitech stated in their instructions. As you play with the Fitech more, it may make sense to alter some of the breakpoint settings to more accurately set where all of your timing advance comes in and what MAP setting you do most of your cruising at. I'm not a Fitech expert but am running a 600 power adder version on a 428, so have learned a few things over the last couple of years. Let me know if there is anything I can help with.
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The elephants in the room, there are two, are the intake manifold and the cam. Change those. Don't get distracted by anything else.
JMO,
paulie
Elephant in the room is NOT the Tunnel Wedge.
Have YOU ever run a Tunnel Wedge on a 482 with Dual Quad EFI? Did not think so . . .
In a earlier post I asked if ANYONE here has run a Dual Quad EFI, appears nobody had not to mention one with a TW.
This is a all total new build truck it will take a bit to get things ironed out. My first real test drive on the road was only a few days ago early Saturday morning. Others take years to iron things out yet I get a day or so and its the end of the world.
The day the Tunnel Wedge is taken from truck is the day the FE comes out and I drop in a little V6 that will blow its doors off for a fraction of the $$. Make more TQ thru entire RPM range too. I have a TON more $$ wrapped up in just the EFI than my 500 RWHP EcoBoost including a 6R80 auto and transfer case along with computer and wiring. Done, Running. And it will get prob 25 mpg, go 250k miles with only oil changes and a few sets of spark plugs.
Okay, glad you have it all figured out. :)
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275 hp 352
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Have you looked at your 4000 rpm handheld timing reading vs timing light reading yet? If they are different, you can slightly tweak the VR4000 setting. That setting is a little bit confusing. If they are different you slightly tweak the default setting either up and down (by the same amount they are different) until both the handheld and the timing light are the same at 4000 rpm as well.
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Did you get your timing problem resolved? With the Fitech timing control, get a helper and have them hold the rpm at 2200 ish rpm. It will help to stabilize the timing off of idle. Have your helper read the timing from the handheld and compare it to what you are reading on your timing light. For example you had said your handheld said 18 while your timing light read 13. In that case, you would rotate your distributor until both your handheld and your timing light indicated 18 degrees. That should help to get your timing synced up, because in that previous example you would be about 5 degrees lower everywhere in your map. I'm not sure if you set your adjustable rotor up as in the Fitech instructions or phased it with another cap with a hole in it. When I phased mine in correctly, it was different than what Fitech stated in their instructions. As you play with the Fitech more, it may make sense to alter some of the breakpoint settings to more accurately set where all of your timing advance comes in and what MAP setting you do most of your cruising at. I'm not a Fitech expert but am running a 600 power adder version on a 428, so have learned a few things over the last couple of years. Let me know if there is anything I can help with.
Thanks for the help offer! May send you a PM with a few questions
Replaced the bad Power Steering pump.
Did some more messing with it. With light it shows 13 deg initial and handheld shows 13.1 all around 850-900 RPM
1100 RPM its up around 21 deg. 2400 its around 34 deg
Yep, The cam is not proper and the converter stall is too high but it sure is a pleasure to drive!
Converter too high for Optimal street cruise but not a issue at all. Just killin' The MPG's a bit.
Runs fantastic and it drives even better. Seems odd for a 53 yr old truck to have ZERO play in steering not wander with big tires, tracks perfect, handles well. Very flat in the corners.
Sounds great, the paint on head exhaust port has not started to change color in 240 miles.
Just a lot of parameters I have not gotten into yet.
Will keep tweaking it to see what it likes
Typical cruise the engine temp is 168 deg. Hottest its gotten in a bit of stop n go is 179.
Sounds like you are getting there, keep going. Try something, write it down and undo it if you need to. Try anything, cam file change, target cruise AFR, timing rate, etc.
Remember, the truck doesn't read this forum, so it doesn't know if the cam is right or wrong, if you tune it to where you are happy, just enjoy it! or enjoy it and plan for the next cam change whenever you get bored!
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352
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To answer the question asked above, Yes, I have done a dual-quad FE EFI set-up.
When Holley first announced their retro-fit TBI system, I was writing for Super Ford Magazine. I called and asked about feasibility of using their system on a Medium Riser 427 with dual quads, (Brother Lon's '67 Mustang) and was told that they were about 6 months away from having such a product. Several months later, I was told that the program was shelved "for the foreseeable future." I asked about using a pair of systems on one engine, and they agreed to assist in such a project.
The project, written-up in a several-part series in Super Ford, ultimately consisted of a pair of stand-alone electronic controls for the two throttle bodies, with the fuel delivery paired so as to have adequate flow and volume. We had to replace the eight injectors because good 'cruise' and good 'WOT' were not attainable with a single setting while using the factory-supplied items.
When we got the injectors changed and the tune in hand, we found that we not only had much more user-friendly start and low speed characteristics, the mid-range was much enhanced and WOT power was significantly more than had been available with any sort of Holley carb pairs.
Testing was done using an accelerometer as a yardstick while using the test-track at T&C Livonia.
KS
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275 hp 352
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275 hp 352
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He also asked about wheel spin, from a dead stop I can get in it very hard and no wheel spin! That is a HUGE factor.
This Friday is last Friday night drags for the year until February. Tempted to go. See how it does.
My testing spot now has too much traffic to do any real testing.
You have a 482 and can't even spin the tires? Holy moly. You have some issues with the combination for sure. I have a little 428 and it spins street tires well into 2nd gear, up to 65-70 mph. It spins cheater slicks part way through 1st gear up to maybe 40-45 mph.
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275 hp 352
-
To answer the question asked above, Yes, I have done a dual-quad FE EFI set-up.
When Holley first announced their retro-fit TBI system, I was writing for Super Ford Magazine. I called and asked about feasibility of using their system on a Medium Riser 427 with dual quads, (Brother Lon's '67 Mustang) and was told that they were about 6 months away from having such a product. Several months later, I was told that the program was shelved "for the foreseeable future." I asked about using a pair of systems on one engine, and they agreed to assist in such a project.
The project, written-up in a several-part series in Super Ford, ultimately consisted of a pair of stand-alone electronic controls for the two throttle bodies, with the fuel delivery paired so as to have adequate flow and volume. We had to replace the eight injectors because good 'cruise' and good 'WOT' were not attainable with a single setting while using the factory-supplied items.
When we got the injectors changed and the tune in hand, we found that we not only had much more user-friendly start and low speed characteristics, the mid-range was much enhanced and WOT power was significantly more than had been available with any sort of Holley carb pairs.
Testing was done using an accelerometer as a yardstick while using the test-track at T&C Livonia.
KS
Very interesting! Thanks for the input. What year would that have been?
Jason )CobraCammer has one on his SOHC Saleen project. I should probably go back and read thru his efforts.
Must be more than 20 years ago now. Our approach, regarding the cam, was that you chose the cam to go with the other hard parts, and then tuned the EFI to work with what you had in place. Lon's Mustang had a custom Comp cam, but I have no clear memory of the details. It was somewhat rowdy, but the EFI tuning made it easy to live with and it always started instantly.
KS
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275 hp 352
-
He also asked about wheel spin, from a dead stop I can get in it very hard and no wheel spin! That is a HUGE factor.
This Friday is last Friday night drags for the year until February. Tempted to go. See how it does.
My testing spot now has too much traffic to do any real testing.
You have a 482 and can't even spin the tires? Holy moly. You have some issues with the combination for sure. I have a little 428 and it spins street tires well into 2nd gear, up to 65-70 mph. It spins cheater slicks part way through 1st gear up to maybe 40-45 mph.
So what you are saying that in any build the only important thing is how much it can spin the tires?
Nope. I'm not saying that at all. I do 1/4 mile testing, as well. And I drive my car on the street.
Good luck figuring out your combination.
paulie
-
He also asked about wheel spin, from a dead stop I can get in it very hard and no wheel spin! That is a HUGE factor.
This Friday is last Friday night drags for the year until February. Tempted to go. See how it does.
My testing spot now has too much traffic to do any real testing.
You have a 482 and can't even spin the tires? Holy moly. You have some issues with the combination for sure. I have a little 428 and it spins street tires well into 2nd gear, up to 65-70 mph. It spins cheater slicks part way through 1st gear up to maybe 40-45 mph.
HaHaHaHahahahahahahahahahahaha!
So what you are saying that in any build the only important thing is how much it can spin the tires? And, tire spin is the new true indicator of how much HP the engine has? So how about if you take that parachute, hang glider or tall ladder and get down off that high horse & drive on by with that wheel spinner you have and let's have a friendly competition?
That statement you just made tells me all I need to know about such brilliance!
In my builds I strive for least amount of tire spin vs how much I can make it spin.
So go ahead stop on by for the competition then we will see how that "wheel spin" works out for you!
If a converter manufacturer says the converter is as tight as they can make it and still stalling a bit high that means my "Combination" is all wrong? Yeah, Ok, Got It . . .
You should probably open the mind a bit about EFI, take both feet out of your mouth and put the thinking cap on!
So before I make a cam change we should probably do that contest before hand . . It's current "Combination" is already much better than yours.
How about:
60'
1/8 Mile
1/4 Mile
Road Course
Braking Tests
Top Speed
Overall Handling
Ride Quality
Driveability
Engine/Drivetrain "Combination"
Chassis Dyno
Then we do a entire vehicle contest along with fit and finish
Any other categories you want to add? Wheel spin?
Of all categories mentioned above which one do you think your cougar would win?
Maybe you should work on your "Combination" before hand?
Your reading comprehension also needs a bit of work. No where did I say it WOULD NOT spin the tires. Don't want it to but if I went WOT it may. Have not tried it yet.
Hey this is starting to remind me of the good-old high school days, when everybody told me how slow my cobra jet was.
Well, it WAS slow by today's standards, but for 1975 in high school, it was the fastest car in the lot for sure. And the best looking I would have to add. Total chick magnet.
TimeWarp, I think you're being a little over-defensive, it seems you attack your car (and the old-school 1958-vintage FE) and then defend it vigorously. (That's actually a Monte Python skit with John Cleese). Relax, we are just trying to help. Everybody has a little expertise here and there
I'll offer mine - in the Gonkulator, EXCEPT for its potential feedback on the EFI mixture readings, that 106 LSA isn't hurting a thing performance wise. For sure as you plan, I'd get some times on it before yanking it out.
Now back to the High School rivalry:
I like your idea of a shootout between your rig and Paulie's Cougar.
The bright red on your truck will make it faster, and I suppose it's prettier than Paulie's (dog blue IIRC?) Cougar.
But, the Cougar is a lot lighter and way less of a brick aero-wise. Trucks run a lot lower MPH than you might think due to their brick-like aero.
I've already run both engines & cars in the Gonkulator but I don't want to give any hints.
How bout we compare time slips, bit by bit.
First both of you post 60 ft times with the rest blanked out.
The excitement builds.
Another sip of beer and a bite of popcorn in the stands.
The 330ft mark goes by - you both post those.
Some of the crowd is standing up now.
(Lets face it, a 66 truck and 67 cougar, maybe there's 20 of us in the stands but half are standing).
Then we post the 660 results, then 1000 ft, then 1320 and the blinking light!!!
How bout it?
One other category where I bet either me or Bill Ballinger would win - ponies PER DOLLAR.
I always emohasize this when comparisons are made to the new computer-powered iron.
All the Muscle Cars back in the day were UNDER $30,000 (in today's dollars) for a stripper CAR and a hot drive train.
Nobody paid $60,000 or $90,000 for a car, that would be just nuts. That was house money.
So TimeWarp and Paulie, let's do that Time Slip shootout here.
All in good fun! 8)
-
He also asked about wheel spin, from a dead stop I can get in it very hard and no wheel spin! That is a HUGE factor.
This Friday is last Friday night drags for the year until February. Tempted to go. See how it does.
My testing spot now has too much traffic to do any real testing.
You have a 482 and can't even spin the tires? Holy moly. You have some issues with the combination for sure. I have a little 428 and it spins street tires well into 2nd gear, up to 65-70 mph. It spins cheater slicks part way through 1st gear up to maybe 40-45 mph.
HaHaHaHahahahahahahahahahahaha!
So what you are saying that in any build the only important thing is how much it can spin the tires? And, tire spin is the new true indicator of how much HP the engine has? So how about if you take that parachute, hang glider or tall ladder and get down off that high horse & drive on by with that wheel spinner you have and let's have a friendly competition?
That statement you just made tells me all I need to know about such brilliance!
In my builds I strive for least amount of tire spin vs how much I can make it spin.
So go ahead stop on by for the competition then we will see how that "wheel spin" works out for you!
If a converter manufacturer says the converter is as tight as they can make it and still stalling a bit high that means my "Combination" is all wrong? Yeah, Ok, Got It . . .
You should probably open the mind a bit about EFI, take both feet out of your mouth and put the thinking cap on!
So before I make a cam change we should probably do that contest before hand . . It's current "Combination" is already much better than yours.
How about:
60'
1/8 Mile
1/4 Mile
Road Course
Braking Tests
Top Speed
Overall Handling
Ride Quality
Driveability
Engine/Drivetrain "Combination"
Chassis Dyno
Then we do a entire vehicle contest along with fit and finish
Any other categories you want to add? Wheel spin?
Of all categories mentioned above which one do you think your cougar would win?
Maybe you should work on your "Combination" before hand?
Your reading comprehension also needs a bit of work. No where did I say it WOULD NOT spin the tires. Don't want it to but if I went WOT it may. Have not tried it yet.
Hey this is starting to remind me of the good-old high school days, when everybody told me how slow my cobra jet was.
Well, it WAS slow by today's standards, but for 1975 in high school, it was the fastest car in the lot for sure. And the best looking I would have to add. Total chick magnet.
TimeWarp, I think you're being a little over-defensive, it seems you attack your car (and the old-school 1958-vintage FE) and then defend it vigorously. (That's actually a Monte Python skit with John Cleese). Relax, we are just trying to help. Everybody has a little expertise here and there
I'll offer mine - in the Gonkulator, EXCEPT for its potential feedback on the EFI mixture readings, that 106 LSA isn't hurting a thing performance wise. For sure as you plan, I'd get some times on it before yanking it out.
Now back to the High School rivalry:
I like your idea of a shootout between your rig and Paulie's Cougar.
The bright red on your truck will make it faster, and I suppose it's prettier than Paulie's (dog blue IIRC?) Cougar.
But, the Cougar is a lot lighter and way less of a brick aero-wise. Trucks run a lot lower MPH than you might think due to their brick-like aero.
I've already run both engines & cars in the Gonkulator but I don't want to give any hints.
How bout we compare time slips, bit by bit.
First both of you post 60 ft times with the rest blanked out.
The excitement builds.
Another sip of beer and a bite of popcorn in the stands.
The 330ft mark goes by - you both post those.
Some of the crowd is standing up now.
(Lets face it, a 66 truck and 67 cougar, maybe there's 20 of us in the stands but half are standing).
Then we post the 660 results, then 1000 ft, then 1320 and the blinking light!!!
How bout it?
One other category where I bet either me or Bill Ballinger would win - ponies PER DOLLAR.
I always emohasize this when comparisons are made to the new computer-powered iron.
All the Muscle Cars back in the day were UNDER $30,000 (in today's dollars) for a stripper CAR and a hot drive train.
Nobody paid $60,000 or $90,000 for a car, that would be just nuts. That was house money.
So TimeWarp and Paulie, let's do that Time Slip shootout here.
All in good fun! 8)
:) For me, 1.99 60 ft on street tires on a street surface. G-tech g-meter. Admittedly, my suspension is not awesome. That was rolling in and out the throttle to try to hook.
The tires are 10.5" ET Street bias plys. I think I had the pressure down to 17 psi. And yes, my Cougar is the ugly blue one. :)
paulie
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I'll have to see if my G-tech still has that run in it. I remember the 1/4 time and mph, but not 330', 1/8 mile, 1000 ft. and such. I don't even remember if the G-tech records 330' and 1000'. It's been a while for me. :)
paulie
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Also, I think the G-meter might not record 60 foot times like on the dragstrip. I think it can't account for rollout or where you are staged behind the light. It just starts recording when it can tell that you are moving. So the 60' time can be deceptive? I think?
JMO,
paulie
-
Also, I think the G-meter might not record 60 foot times like on the dragstrip. I think it can't account for rollout or where you are staged behind the light. It just starts recording when it can tell that you are moving. So the 60' time can be deceptive? I think?
JMO,
paulie
Unless you change it, most of the GTECH are set up with a 12" rollout.
In fact, all the raw data is in there.
So if you upload it to your laptop later on you can specify when to subtract rollout & how much eg 6" 12" 18".
0-60mph is almost always quoted from a dead stop so no rollout. ALMOST always.
Timeslip stuff of course includes rollout, 12" is a typical number.
I calibrate my GTECH stuff now & then vs the dragstip timeslips to make sure that both jive.
One of the most valuable things about the GTECH that a dragstrip CANNOT do is show you G's vs time.
You can tell what your peak G's is on launching, and if you hit it too hard or too soft.
Its also good for telling when to shift - when the G's fall away in 1st, then if you shift to 2nd too early they fall WAY off, vs holding 1st til the G's only drop a little bit into 2nd.
The G's vs time is so sensitive, I can compare runs & pick out the "kick" from when I Cobra-Jetted my heads, the same up to 3000 & then you can see it right on the G's vs time where the bigger heads start coming on.
Well I guess this very-slow-motion race is underway, a 1.99 60ft from Blue Cougar is all we have so far. ;D
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Yeah, a 1.99 60 ft is pretty slow motion for sure. :)
I will give a hint though, this was on a cold winter day. Maybe 40-45 degrees F. So the traction was lackin' but the miles per hour were showing the power!
paulie
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Also, I think the G-meter might not record 60 foot times like on the dragstrip. I think it can't account for rollout or where you are staged behind the light. It just starts recording when it can tell that you are moving. So the 60' time can be deceptive? I think?
JMO,
paulie
Unless you change it, most of the GTECH are set up with a 12" rollout.
In fact, all the raw data is in there.
So if you upload it to your laptop later on you can specify when to subtract rollout & how much eg 6" 12" 18".
0-60mph is almost always quoted from a dead stop so no rollout. ALMOST always.
Timeslip stuff of course includes rollout, 12" is a typical number.
I calibrate my GTECH stuff now & then vs the dragstip timeslips to make sure that both jive.
One of the most valuable things about the GTECH that a dragstrip CANNOT do is show you G's vs time.
You can tell what your peak G's is on launching, and if you hit it too hard or too soft.
Its also good for telling when to shift - when the G's fall away in 1st, then if you shift to 2nd too early they fall WAY off, vs holding 1st til the G's only drop a little bit into 2nd.
The G's vs time is so sensitive, I can compare runs & pick out the "kick" from when I Cobra-Jetted my heads, the same up to 3000 & then you can see it right on the G's vs time where the bigger heads start coming on.
Well I guess this very-slow-motion race is underway, a 1.99 60ft from Blue Cougar is all we have so far. ;D
That is all very good info. Especially about the g's and the shift points. Thanks! To be honest I haven't had my GTECH on my Cougar for a few years now. I have to find it and see if it still works.
If I remember right, I was shifting into second around 6600-6700 rpm and into third around 6900-7000.
paulie
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I remember the late Joe Sherman saying that with 3 speed automatics it usually improves ET's to short shift from first to second. Then shift second to third at a higher rpm. Just rambling...…
paulie
-
275 hp 352
-
One more step in case paulie does not have 330'
8.376 660'
Is the Cougar still with me?
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No 660', but 330' is 5.174 seconds.
-
Pretty close!
-
1000 ft, 9.876
1/8 mile, 7.708 @ 99.19 mph
1/4 mile, 11.709 @ 123.36 mph.
My best run is 11.49 @ 124 mph, but I didn't see it on my GTECH. I have a video of that run somewhere, though.
Anyway, my Cougar is likely 500 pounds lighter than your truck and I was using sticky tires. It is stripped. No carpet, no sun visors, no headlight doors, manual steering, manual brakes. Battery in the trunk. Aluminum heads, intake, water pump, etc. Light forged aluminum 15" wheels.
paulie
It also idles poorly and get horrible mpg.
-
275 hp 352
-
275 hp 352
-
Times were with the GTECH on the street, with wheel spin, and good air.
The Cougar is light. I haven't weighed it, but I think it weighs less than 3400 lbs. Maybe 3300 or even less.
13.0 is fast for a 6 cylinder full size truck. ;)
JMO,
paulie
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275 hp 352
-
Times were with the GTECH on the street, with wheel spin, and good air.
The Cougar is light. I haven't weighed it, but I think it weighs less than 3400 lbs. Maybe 3300 or even less.
13.0 is fast for a 6 cylinder full size truck. ;)
JMO,
paulie
Not really buying the " My best run is 11.49 @ 124 mph" spinning tires on street.
The 13.0 run was leaving at a idle if I left with any RPM it would just spin.
That's okay. :)
-
Times were with the GTECH on the street, with wheel spin, and good air.
The Cougar is light. I haven't weighed it, but I think it weighs less than 3400 lbs. Maybe 3300 or even less.
13.0 is fast for a 6 cylinder full size truck. ;)
JMO,
paulie
Not really buying the " My best run is 11.49 @ 124 mph" spinning tires on street.
The 13.0 run was leaving at a idle if I left with any RPM it would just spin.
So are you saying your 6 cylinder would just spin, but your 482 doesn't?
-
He also asked about wheel spin, from a dead stop I can get in it very hard and no wheel spin! That is a HUGE factor.
This is what I have been trying to figure out
-
1000 ft, 9.876
1/8 mile, 7.708 @ 99.19 mph
1/4 mile, 11.709 @ 123.36 mph.
My best run is 11.49 @ 124 mph, but I didn't see it on my GTECH. I have a video of that run somewhere, though.
Anyway, my Cougar is likely 500 pounds lighter than your truck and I was using sticky tires. It is stripped. No carpet, no sun visors, no headlight doors, manual steering, manual brakes. Battery in the trunk. Aluminum heads, intake, water pump, etc. Light forged aluminum 15" wheels.
paulie
It also idles poorly and get horrible mpg.
3500 lbs with driver?
At 3500 lbs and 123 mph 1/4 it would need to be making 500 RWHP.
I think I am making about 550 flywheel hp now. Not sure, but I did dyno the same engine with a much smaller cam and got 517 flywheel hp. Like I said I don't know the weight, but it is light for a street car.
-
275 hp 352
-
275 hp 352
-
Sounds like you have it all figured out.
JMO,
paulie
-
1000 ft, 9.876
1/8 mile, 7.708 @ 99.19 mph
1/4 mile, 11.709 @ 123.36 mph.
My best run is 11.49 @ 124 mph, but I didn't see it on my GTECH. I have a video of that run somewhere, though.
Anyway, my Cougar is likely 500 pounds lighter than your truck and I was using sticky tires. It is stripped. No carpet, no sun visors, no headlight doors, manual steering, manual brakes. Battery in the trunk. Aluminum heads, intake, water pump, etc. Light forged aluminum 15" wheels.
paulie
It also idles poorly and get horrible mpg.
Paulie,
Are you running open headers & no air cleaner or what on that run? Cold air to the carb?
Trying to get the Gonk to match. My 1st guess was like 116mph but I don't know your exact setup.
-
Werby,
Not open headers, but very free flowing exhaust. I have 2" Crites headers, 3-1/2" pipes, with 3-1/2" Dr Gas x-pipe, 3-1/2" Dynomax bullet mufflers and 3-1/2" turndowns before the axle.
No cold air intake. I have a 14x3-1/2" K&N open element air cleaner. The back of my hood is raised about 3/4" to maybe(?)facilitate airflow. That more likely helps at stoplights in summer, though. I think the air was cold and dry on this day. It was in December and maybe 40 degrees.
The best part on my engine are the cylinder heads, IMO. They are just Edelbrocks, but the guy who ported them is a bit of a genius, in my opinion. I am going to try to find him when I update my heads for a 427 size bore. His machine shop closed a few years back.
paulie
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Maybe I had a tail wind? I have no idea about that.
-
I can tell you I have never hooked up completely with my ET Streets. I always have to work the throttle in first gear. I think that is why the mph is high for the ET.
-
Sorry for the hijack, TimeWarpF100!
paulie
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Also my headlight doors are off which creates an air space (scoop!) :) into the engine bay.
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So to summarize the spirited competition of words, GTECH, timeslips of a different car, here is what has been posted.
Thanks to all for a fun thread so far.
Timeslips:
V6eco 432fe
ShinyRed DogBlue
1.93 1.99 60ft
5.46 5.17 330ft
8.38 7.71 1/8 et
84.8 99.2 1/8 mph
10.88 9.88 1000 ft
13.04 11.71 ¼ et
104.6 123.4 ¼ mph
Gonkulator: (The Gonkulator assumes those 482 EFI issues are sorted out, and the same nominal weather for all, not a cold “mineshaft” day for the Cougar. I used 2800 stall for the 482 FE truck though we don't know the real value. 2400 stall was about .05 sec slower so it doesn't matter much except for being a lot slushier. I adjusted traction in the Cougar to match 60ft but the v6 truck 60ft was so close I left the Gonk alone. I also used a 5mph tailwind for ALL the Gonkulator runs below, to be consistent, and since it seemed to fit what was going on better. That adds about 1mph in trap speed.
Here is what the Gonkulator says about the two ENGINES we are comparing:
482fe w=4000 44t586 63p619
432fe w=3500 47t534 62p571 (edited to 432cid per post below instead of 470cid)
And here are the Gonkulator “timeslips” for Truck (T) and Cougar [C]:
T1 T2 T3 C1 C2
V6 V6 482FE 432FE 432FE
100-05 100-05 100-05 100-05 105-10
522r417r 436r334r 414r392r 423r433r 445r456r
Modern Modern ShinyRed DogBlue DogBlue
1.93 1.95 1.95 1.99 1.99 60ft
5.18 5.40 5.25 5.21 5.18 330ft
7.89 8.31 7.96 7.80 7.72 1/8 et
90.6 84.5 91.1 95.0 96.8 1/8 mph
10.53 11.13 10.62 10.31 10.19 1000 ft
12.28 13.02 12.31 11.90 11.74 ¼ et
111.8 104.2 112.5 121.2 123.9 ¼ mph
Observations:
1. V6 Truck: The Gonkulator would have a really hard time getting that chassis-dyno 532 Torq 420 Power to line up with the 13.02 at 104.2mph timeslip.
2. T1: Fiddling with the Gonk, I ginned up a V6 that showed 522 Torq 417 Power rear wheel (pretty close). The 4700-lb-down-the-track Truck Gonked to 12.28 at 111.8mph with that much under the hood.
3. T2: I had to fiddle DOWN the rear wheel to about 436 Torq 334 Power to slow the Lil Red Truck down to 13.02 at 104.2.
4. T3: If I then swap the 482 FE in and somehow the total weight goes down 700 lb to WT=4000, and somehow the EFI is able to infer the right A/F in spite of that close 106 LSA cam, the Gonk result is 12.31 at 112.5.
5. That 12.31 at 112.5 would be a very close race compared to how the V6 truck SHOULD run [12.28 at 111.8], but would blow the doors off what the v6 truck HAS run (13.02 at 104.2). So TimeWarp, your 2 trucks should have a fun race. Reading all your comments I would STILL go smaller on the cam if it were me. You will still blow off that overrated computer-era v6 and the big smooth-cam 482 will behave more like your sensible 352 family truck.
6. BENCH RACE SHOOTOUT T3 vs C1: And, I don’t think the Dog Blue Cougar is in sight either way. Comparing Run T3 and Run C1 (the bench race we originally agreed on but cant do because the Truck has not been timed at all), it’s not even close. The 482 FE truck at WT=4000 down the track Gonks to 12.31 at 112.5, whereas the 432 FE Cougar at WT=3500 Gonks to 11.90 at 121.2, using a 5mph tailwind for both.
7. C2: The final C2 Gonkulator run is meant to duplicate what Paulie actually got on his Gtech in that mineshaft cold weather, 11.74 at 123.9mph with about 5% better air than the Bench Race Shootout run C1 and 5mph more tailwind.
This was like listening to the Beach Boys’ “Shut Down” in slow motion! Lots of memories.
I’m sure we’ve all won & lost to a car by a fraction of a fender.
Kinda like that – its like that final few seconds is lasting for days. 8)
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Thanks, Werby! Interesting stuff as always. I have lots of runs in the 121-124 mph range. But I don't often do it in the middle of summer. Me and Smelly Cat like cold air!
One note. The engine in the Cougar is a 432 inch FE. I am planning to have 470+ inch FE built, but I have not done so.
Thanks again,
paulie
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My only original intent, was to say that I thought the intake manifold and cam choice for the EFI 482 seemed off to me. :)
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Thanks, Werby! Interesting stuff as always. I have lots of runs in the 121-124 mph range. But I don't often do it in the middle of summer. Me and Smelly Cat like cold air!
One note. The engine in the Cougar is a 432 inch FE. I am planning to have 470+ inch FE built, but I have not done so.
Thanks again,
paulie
Ahah! The 470cid was all I found for you in the Gonk database.
Can you describe the 432? bore-stroke-CR-heads (same ported Edel?) intake-carb-cam?
It has to be pretty healthy but I just like to have accurate stuff in the files!
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Sure, and again sorry for the hijack. Whew! Thank goodness I found an old post to copy and paste.
- 428 "C" block bored 0.025" over for a 4.155" bore. 432 cubic inches. JE pistons.
- half-fill of Hardblok.
- Factory cast 428 crank
- Factory CJ rods with ARP bolts
- Holley 850 double pumper with Proform main body. 80 jets all around.
- Blue Thunder dual plane intake port matched to heads. Plenum ported by me. 1" clover leaf spacer.
- Edelbrock #6005 heads with Ferrea 2.09/1.65" valves, 45 degree seat intake and exhaust. Intake ported pretty extensively. Exhaust just cleaned up. Flow @ 0.600" 293/206 cfm.
- Harland Sharp roller rockers
- JE forged pistons. 10.5:1 static compression.
- Solid flat tappet cam. 279/287 degrees @ 0.020". 252/260 degrees @ 0.050". 0.598"/0.598" gross lift. 108 degree lobe separation. 105 degree intake centerline. This is a Compcams custom grind. Intake lobe is a 279MA and the exhaust is a 287MA. Cam is nitrided.
- Lifters are Crower dumbbells with EDM holes.
- Crane 96879 springs. Spring pressure is about 150 lbs closed and 405 lbs. open. Manton pushrods. The pushrods have 0.093" thick walls? Titanium retainers.
- Milodon deep sump oil pan. Melling HV oil pump. oil passages opened up at oil pump mount. 0.090" restrictors to rockers. windage tray.
- Crites headers. 2" primary tubes. 3.5" collectors.
- MSD Pro Billet distributor. MSD 6AL box. MSD Blaster coil. 18 degrees initial timing. 36 degrees total.
- Broader Performance "700hp rated" C6 with reverse pattern manual valve body. 3600 rpm stall. 4.11 gears.
I had this same engine dyno'ed, but with a smaller cam and without the Proform main body on the carb, and without the plenum work in the intake manifold. The main body helped a lot and so did the cam. With a 240/246 solid flat tappet cam and a stock Holley 850 it made 517 hp at 6200 rpm and 522 ft/lbs at 4200 rpm. I think I am 25-30 hp more than that now. Not badass compared to all the expensive stuff, but fun in a relatively light street car. My best on street tires on street surfaces is 11.49 at 124 mph. That is spinning in 1st gear, and in and out of the throttle, according to a G-Tech g-meter. It turns about 7000 rpm now.
paulie
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Thanks, Werby! Interesting stuff as always. I have lots of runs in the 121-124 mph range. But I don't often do it in the middle of summer. Me and Smelly Cat like cold air!
One note. The engine in the Cougar is a 432 inch FE. I am planning to have 470+ inch FE built, but I have not done so.
Thanks again,
paulie
OK see above modified to 432cid. That is one healthy engine for basically a 428cj short block!
I hope we provided TimeWarp some good goals & perspective.
It's a challenge taking on a heavy rig and the aero of a truck.
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The Cougar might be lighter than you would think, too. No radio, no sunvisors, no headliner, no console, no carpet, etc. I sometimes take the back seat out, too.
paulie
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208 hp 352
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I also put wax on the valve covers and installed a chrome breather that's at least 15% more power.
So, Put the cougar on the dragstrip for that Mid to High 12 at best. It's not running high 11's as it is. Pipe Dream
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208 hp 352
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Any online calculator uses RWHP not Flywheel when estimating 1/4 1/8 & ET
TimeWarp,
You might not be familiar with the WerbyFord Gonkulator (so named years ago not by me).
It was written by me over the past 40 years and is NOT an on-line "horsepower wheel".
At this point I'm inclined to repeat what Paulie said already:
"Sounds like you've got it all figured out".
I agree Paulie should weigh his car.
But it wont be more than +/-100 lb from what I have assumed.
You are wrong about the GTECH.
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Werby, that gonkulator what exactly can it gonkulate?
obviusly from standing still to 1/4 mile times
And what data does it need to gonkulate what ;D
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Werby, that gonkulator what exactly can it gonkulate?
obviusly from standing still to 1/4 mile times
And what data does it need to gonkulate what
Origin of the name "Gonkulator" from 19 Oct 2006 (wow time flies):
https://www.fordfe.com/brent-i-got-your-email-gonkulator-predicts-591hp-t48890.html
The original "horsepower wheel" (input car weight & 1/4 mile ET or MPH and it outputs NET horsepower) is a correlation by Roger Huntington dating way back to the 1960s. Its just a cubic relation scaled to fit the data of hundreds of cars.
Before TimeWarp deleted all his posts here (not sure why!!!) he stated that a "wheel" can only work in terms of REAR WHEEL power. Physically, that is correct- the car responds to what it sees at the rear wheels (well, at least for normal cars), not the flywheel. But the original Huntington correlation was an attempt to go directly to NET ENGINE power.
And it's not too bad - give or take about 4 mph which is like saying give or take 40hp, within the scatter of all the data on that correlation line.
I use it as a quick estimator (as do many here) but that's all it is- a sanity check.
One problem with many of those on-line "wheels" is they don't really tell you whether they are spitting out REAR WHEEL power or NET ENGINE power or some inference from one to the other.
The WerbyFord Gonkulator (similar to the commercial Desktop Dyno, Quarter Jr, Engine Analyzer, and others) starts right from specs for the engine- cubes, head type and flow, headers, carb, and spits out a curve of Torq at RPM and Power at RPM.
Then, it takes inputs like belts, ram air, car weight and aero, transmission, rear, etc, and spits out a "timeslip", 60ft to 1/4 mile, 0-60mph, top speed, etc.
The Gonkulator MOE (Mean Observed Error) is about 3% on Torq and Power. For the FE series its more like 2% (my favorite engine series or at least the one where I have the most data & experience). The MOE for 1/4 mile ET and MPH is about 2%. So it's not perfect, but better than the "wheels".
AND, to me, the best feature of the Gonkulator is, it will assess a CHANGE you want to make- ditching the mufflers, adding cold air, shift RPM, etc. Not perfect, again, but it does ok.
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Werby, that gonkulator what exactly can it gonkulate?
obviusly from standing still to 1/4 mile times
And what data does it need to gonkulate what ;D
Here is the Gonkulator input list. I might have missed a few things. It also does NOSS-Spray-Nitrous in a cursory way since some of the kids are "into" that stuff today.
Engine
Air cleaner
Air source eg round open underhood, snorkeled [yuck], cold air shaker,
t-bolt via headlites, etc.
Fan / Power steering / AC / AIR / other belts / elec water pump
Carb type and cfm
spacer
intake type and specific model, that really matters
If "mystery" intake, pictures and measurements eg port sizes, "A" and "B" as
Edelbrock measures them, and distance from carb flange to bottom for each hole.
cyl head type, casting # eg c1ae-a, valve sizes, flow curve or even 28" flow at .500"
at a minimum (or else guess), port sizes if unusual.
Rocker type and Ratio
cam: mech or hyd, flat or roller, .050" duration, I&E lobe centers (eg 106i, 114e),
gross lift and lash if any
compression ratio
bore & stroke
rod length
deck clearance
head gasket thickness
pictures of combustion chamber and piston top if unusual or new design
exhaust manifolds or headers, primary diam, lengths [of each tube if known],
collector diam and length
exhaust pipe size, muffler type and size
Car:
Trans type eg c4 c6 top loader, converter stall, gear ratios
Rear, type eg 8" or 9" and ratio and Det Locker, etc.
Tire type and size
Car eg 67 Mustang and any aero mods eg cow catcher or 4" lift
Weight, curb front & rear and with driver
chassis setup
Obviously very few post all this info and sometimes it doesn't matter too much
Although for those guys in the 10's every little detail seems to matter.
So as you may notice I guess at a lot of stuff if not supplied
I probably forgot something but that's all I can think of
For the car, a "known" 60ft time helps, because the computer just cannot do this,
it depends too much on track, driver, setup, etc. Knowing the 60ft makes the
1/8 and 1/4 a lot more accurate, and you can measure 60ft with a Gtech just about
anywhere - I don't really count 60ft as a "prediction", too much luck and tirespin.
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:)
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Here is the Gonkulator input list. I might have missed a few things. It also does NOSS-Spray-Nitrous in a cursory way since some of the kids are "into" that stuff today.
Damn kids with their drugs and rock n roll anyway!