Author Topic: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices  (Read 12365 times)

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turbohunter

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EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« on: June 22, 2017, 06:41:01 PM »
Im going to really show my ignorance here.
I'm curious, because Im thinking about this 24/7 these days.
Compression ratio
In choosing a CR for an EFI engine. How does the EFI relate? Do I have fiddle room for more compression with EFI? Why?
Cam choice.
Do I have more room for overlap? Do I choose what I would for a carb? Can I take advantage of EFI and go bigger and still get street able (qualified) manners? Do the basic adv/retard rules apply?
Porting
What does EFI like? Same as a carb?

Feel free to add what I should also be thinking about.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


jayb

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2017, 09:46:44 PM »
Think about what they are getting away with in new cars.  Higher compression, bigger cams, more power, etc.  With EFI that includes sequential injection and timing control, you have more tunability across the entire range, you can compensate for variations in air temperature and coolant temperature, etc. etc.  You are less likely to run too lean and get into detonation issues with a well tuned EFI system.  So, your big cam that's a pain with a carb can be pretty manageable with EFI. 

BUT, and this is a big but, none of us are automotive manufacturers that can spend countless hours dialing in the EFI system, with lots of instrumentation monitoring all aspects of the engine, and plenty of engines to burn up with mistakes before finally getting it right.  My advice would be to build an EFI engine with the same compression as you would plan for a carbed engine, and maybe go a step bigger on the cam because you can tame the cam down at low speed pretty easily with EFI, in my experience.  I don't think head porting enters into the EFI equation, at least not to a significant degree.

Hope that helps - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

FElony

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2017, 10:30:21 PM »
Im going to really show my ignorance here.

I've been doing that for years. One thread ain't gonna kill ya.
Quote
I'm curious, because I'm thinking about this 24/7 these days.

Yep, because sleep is so overrated. I mean, churning technical possibilities after a week of no sleep makes things so much clearer.
Quote
Compression ratio
In choosing a CR for an EFI engine. How does the EFI relate? Do I have fiddle room for more compression with EFI? Why?
Cam choice.
Do I have more room for overlap? Do I choose what I would for a carb? Can I take advantage of EFI and go bigger and still get street able (qualified) manners? Do the basic adv/retard rules apply?
Porting
What does EFI like? Same as a carb?

Do you lift your pinky when you say "streetable"? Run a double-pumper, weenie. Better yet, run dual double-pumpers. And, say no to ignition modules and run points. Man up. Don't be a snowflake.
Quote
Feel free to add what I should also be thinking about.

Well, for thinking 24/7, I suggest hookers and blow. The money you save on that EFI crap can pay for a fun weekend. If you're dealing with the hookers in my neighborhood, you're good to go for a month.

Hope this helps!

turbohunter

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 07:18:26 AM »
I agree with all points but one.
Carbs are easy (qualified), we've all been doing them since we were kids.
Trying to do some learning and maybe shove the old heap down the road a little cleaner/faster/better.
And snowflake term is waaay out of place. I'm absolutely positive this "snowflake" could kick your ass. :)
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


My427stang

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 07:38:53 AM »
Im going to really show my ignorance here.
I'm curious, because Im thinking about this 24/7 these days.
Compression ratio
In choosing a CR for an EFI engine. How does the EFI relate? Do I have fiddle room for more compression with EFI? Why?
Cam choice.
Do I have more room for overlap? Do I choose what I would for a carb? Can I take advantage of EFI and go bigger and still get street able (qualified) manners? Do the basic adv/retard rules apply?
Porting
What does EFI like? Same as a carb?

Feel free to add what I should also be thinking about.

Marc,

First camshafts - You can do anything if the system is adjustable enough, more if you can make it NOT adjustable....more on that in a second.

The basic premise is, the engine doesn't know what is feeding it and for the most part, with the cam, power is power.  However, remember, the engine is using the O2 sensor, along with the other sensors to adjust fuel.  An O2 sensor doesn't know if it is rich from unburned fuel from a bad mixture or fuel being pulled out with a big overlap cam, so generally, on the street it is better to try to run less overlap.  Cam choices stay the same, but you spread the centers to minimize overlap a bit to keep idle clean-ish.  That being said, as a reference, my 10.7:1 489 runs a 286/294 cam (@.020) on 110 centers on 106, so you don't have to go crazy, I just wouldn't run a huge cam on tight centers.

I mentioned making it non-adjustable...thats the good thing about electronics.  Let's say the idle is dumping fuel into the exhaust during overlap.  If you decide you want to go "open loop" at idle and ignore the O2 sensor, you can. It uses whatever sensors you want and still does it's thing, but it doesn't adjust the fuel tables as much and doesn't use the O2 sensor to decide.  So, very common technique is with a big cam, open loop at idle and make it sort of an electronic carb, then when the throttle cracks and vacuum comes up, it goes closed loop again.

Next thing is injector timing, I adjust my injector timing based on actual cam events.  There are a couple schools of thought, and it really doesn't matter at high RPM as the injectors sort of just create a fog as they fire at 90+% duty cycle, but at low RPM it can be dramatic.  You can spray a closed valve and keep it cool and continue as it opens, or you can time the injector to follow the valve movement.  I do the latter.  I really cleaned up idle that way and it just seems happier.

Next as far as far as compression and timing, think of electronic timing control as the thing we always wished we had.  Can you run more compression?  Sort of, usually, in the end you can go higher because you likely can control your timing curve is ways never before able.  Load, temp, outside air temp, a/f mixture, throttle position, speed, all kinds of things.  So, likely, you can run more compression, but the extra 1/2 point or so IMHO could be put into airflow and/or programming experimentation.  However, total timing requirements are still based on what the combustion chamber is seeing, so the thought behind total timing isn't significantly different.

In terms of the timing curve to get there though, it's awesome.  If the cam is a little big, you can crank at 0, 6, or 10 BTDC, whatever the starter can handle and immediately pop to 20 when it fires, you can pull timing out with boost, even with atmospheric pressure or coolant temp or air temp.  My Mustang using 10 BTDC crank and +10 when it fires for 20 at idle.  That can add or lower for load, temp, etc all the things I mentioned before, so drivability, especially when mixed with the injector timing can be dramatically different than a carb.  In the end, basic rules still apply, but your curve becomes multi-dimensional adjustable based on your system and what you want it to do.

And...punch line...if you decide at times like WOT you don't want that, you go open loop to keep the computer from adjusting and the curve can be exactly like a standard distributor, but with no friction, rust or sticky weights, and when you come off WOT, it goes right back to adjusting for everything.

As far as porting, less of an EFI vs carb thing IMHO, but, I think i could tune some torque into a port that is a little too big using ignition timing and cam timing.  As an example, who would think a ported Victor on a 489 with a 6400 shift point would chug around at 1400 rpm in 5th?  (2.63 final drive when in OD)

Just remember, it takes two things: 

1 - The ability to access and control the computer (system and it's interface)
2 - the time and willingness to learn to tune (your skill)

The first is generally a function of money spent, the second is generally trial and error and time. 

I am not sure the end use of this car, but my opinion is for a street car.

- Use the most adjustable port injection you can afford and one you know has internet or a buddies with experience
- Lean more toward making power with good airflow and as much as you can without getting silly (heads, intake, exhaust) so you can run a little less cam
- Think cam timing as valve events and then build a cam that you want to match needs (likely not off the shelf)
- Practice, experiment, save your files, hit "undo" when you don't like it, and keep tuning until you love it



---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

My427stang

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2017, 07:48:30 AM »
Something else as a reference

With a 1000 Holley / ported RPM, at WOT, my car felt real strong  It idled somewhere around 1200 rpm and was fussy cold, if I turned the steering wheel the PS could even stall the motor or at least require feathering, A/C required a electric solenoid to open the throttle, then I lost a clean idle circuit (a little anyway)

With a 1200 cfm, 45 lb injectors, ported Victor, I have a hot idle at 950.  It fires immediately and I can back out of the driveway, turn the wheel, turn on the AC and it doesn't care hot or cold.  I feel that I lost zero low end, maybe gained, but at WOT the big Victor really pulls hard.

Win win for me, only real downside is it aint cheap when you add dual electric fuel pumps in the tank, adding fuel lines, regulators, requirement for a good laptop, etc, but the TKO and the EFI were my favorite things on the car


---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2017, 07:50:37 AM »
As far as compression ratios go, induced swirl due to highly developed combustion chambers, variable cam timing, knock sensors and computers that pull timing have more to do with getting by with the higher numbers than anything else.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

unclewill

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 08:07:09 AM »
I just did a quick video review of the FiTech EFI on my 482 side oiler stroker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSv4GffIiM
1969 Ford Cobra, 482 side oiler, BBM aluminum heads, FiTech EFI, Edelbrock 7105, Comp 292H, CR 4 speed, 9", 3.50

TJ

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 10:28:49 AM »
Any idea how much an EFI system will increase engine longevity over a carb (i.e before the engine needs a rebuild)?  I'm talking for a street car/truck.  I like my quickfuel and ain't got the money for an EFI system anyway, but I'm curious if there's a rough idea.

stangbuilder

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2017, 10:43:54 AM »
I x2 on what 427 said.I have spent the last year turning on my 477 fe.Have a fast sportsman unit in mine..So what i have learned is i am done with carbs .Once you get it you will never turn back.As 427 said if you can think of it you can do it. My cam is 240@248 @ 50 and it idles at 800rpm smooth... almost to smooth...Downside$$$$$$$$$$$$.

FElony

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 12:10:47 PM »
And snowflake term is waaay out of place. I'm absolutely positive this "snowflake" could kick your ass. :)

Oh come on, we all know you California guys are snowflakes. It's on the news every day. Now that you're all riled up, slam on the carbs and points and come out here and kick my pussy butt. I'll be the guy on the demolition site sledgehammering down a 40-foot fence in the Severe Heat Warning we have going right now. Easy pickins for you. Meow.

I did notice that you included "hookers and blow" in the things you agree with. Maybe we should party before we fight. This is Arizona, after all!

https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/675/736/4736675.gif

turbohunter

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2017, 02:00:29 PM »
Oh come on, we all know you California guys are snowflakes.
IIRC you used to wuz a California boy. ::)

Now that you're all riled up
Nope, see the smiley face I used?

I did notice that you included "hookers and blow" in the things you agree with. Maybe we should party before we fight. This is Arizona, after all!
Ahh, the old days. I'm a few years past that now. But still trying to keep up.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


turbohunter

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 02:16:03 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys (even FElony)
As far as CR goes I think I'll shoot for 10.5 static. It's a 4x 4.180 bore. 1U crank offset to 4"
Gonna flow the heads (BBM) before deciding on a cam. Nothing off the shelf. Solid roller. Prolly won't stray to far off the norm.
Oiling through the pushrods to Harland Sharp (new) rockers.
351C RPM air gap through Jays adapter.
Should make a '66 scoot right along.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


Tobbemek

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2017, 07:09:43 AM »
TJ quote
Quote
Any idea how much an EFI system will increase engine longevity over a carb (i.e before the engine needs a rebuild)?  I'm talking for a street car/truck.  I like my quickfuel and ain't got the money for an EFI system anyway, but I'm curious if there's a rough idea.

I have read from different car manufacturer that reports  same amount of cylinder wear with EFI around 200000miles vs, 125000 with carburetor because the fuel shutoff on throttle let go with EFI .

 

chris401

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Re: EFI vs Carb/ engine build choices
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 11:08:19 AM »
Im going to really show my ignorance here.
I'm curious, because Im thinking about this 24/7 these days.
Compression ratio
In choosing a CR for an EFI engine. How does the EFI relate? Do I have fiddle room for more compression with EFI? Why?
Cam choice.
Do I have more room for overlap? Do I choose what I would for a carb? Can I take advantage of EFI and go bigger and still get street able (qualified) manners? Do the basic adv/retard rules apply?
Porting
What does EFI like? Same as a carb?

Feel free to add what I should also be thinking about.
Jay pretty much wrapped it up. I am not familiar with the Sportsman or any other aftermarket EFI units but if you had one where you could preset a constant AFR that would provide some ease when playing with ignition and injector timing. A direct injection DOHC FE head with dual VVT would be interesting.