New Iron FE Heads

[427Fastback]

I will probably never run a Iron head on a FE again unless its some sort of numbers matching build...
It has nothing to do with the cost....The problem is unleaded fuel..
My 427 Iron heads were destroyed in 17,000 miles..
Putting hardened seats in FE heads is touch and go as it is as support for the seat is very limited..Add a wack of spring pressure and its just not worth it...

What is the plan for hardened seats in these hypothetical new Iron castings ?

Cory

[cjshaker]

I will probably never run a Iron head on a FE again unless its some sort of numbers matching build...
It has nothing to do with the cost....The problem is unleaded fuel..
My 427 Iron heads were destroyed in 17,000 miles..

Cory

Cory, that's why you have to up the compression until you need some leaded race fuel.   I mix 50/50 93 octane and Turbo Blue leaded 110 octane. Hopefully that will help my iron MR heads last. In my 390 with C4 heads, I just had hardened seats put in the exhaust. I had the problem of cutting away part of the support when it was machined for the seats, but I had a very good Ford guy that did the work and have not had any issues in the 20 years that it's been together.

[cjshaker]

Finally to all those who have not yet sided with me yet. you say no but 600 plus looking say maybe. And be honest if you were building old blue to pull your drag car or boat, trailer. would you want a set of heads that made 1000s of horsepower or one's that put the power where you needed it? We both know the answer

Not sided with you "yet"? Seeing as how iron heads have only 1 vote so far, and I assume that's yours, you've got a long way to go before everyone sides with you

Honestly, like was already mentioned, if I wanted iron heads, I'd use some tried and true factory heads. With all the aluminum floating around now, iron heads are not hard to come by. Most guys can't even sell them anymore unless they're something rare.

[427Fastback]

I could add the lead additive which is what I will be doing with the little 289 car..I really didn't think unleaded fuel would kill the heads that fast...FE's seem to be the worse...
Never seen a CJ head that doesn't have sunken exhaust valves/seats...That includes the set on the CJ I am doing right now....Cory

[YoungOne]

sorry guys cant play tonight its family night

[feadam]

if they were an exact med riser copy in cast iron I would buy a set

[YoungOne]

Cory, unbeknownst to you, you have made my point. I am the guy who runs with 190 psi cranking pressure, and has to run 25% 110 high lead to keep my heads happy, then when I haven't, I wound up changing head gaskets. But with a set of fast burn heads and a little lower compression I would have better power and not NEED 110 just to go get milk. Your question and Fastbacks comments about the exhaust seat is my other concern, and again the point for a new set of heads. While I now little of the dynamics of an internal combustion engine, I have looked at cross section of a few of the FE heads and think I have come up with some answers. 'If' I could get a set of heads cast I would like to see more material under the exhaust valve like the D2 casting, there is enough meat there to allow for the 1.65 exhaust solving that problem. Also I would like to raise the exhaust port .100 above the early casting like the C1's and C4's as long as the exhaust flange was raised in conjunction. I do not believe this would cause a clearance issue. Then like Joe stated I would like to see the intake floor raised, I am not sure about .400 but maybe .150-.200 above the CJ or med riser floor. Then to complement it lowering the roof of the chamber. Scoot Cook motor sports in Australia is doing some neat things with the Cleveland heads with lowering the roof and I think it could apply to the FE. Lastly and this is the part I am least sure of, is altering the valve angle, 1/2-1 degree as long as it stayed within the sweep of the stock rocker location. Put that into a high swirl double quench chamber and you would really have something.

So feadam can you be put down as one who is for it? than thank you. CJ that's 2 on my side .
 
CJ, Me thinks though doth protest to much. And that deep with in you there is a little gremlin that is rooting for me all the way. Well one cant be to cautious and siding with a crack pot idea might not be in your best interest but thanks I like sparing with you. 
   

[cjshaker]

CJ, Me thinks though doth protest to much. And that deep with in you there is a little gremlin that is rooting for me all the way. Well one cant be to cautious and siding with a crack pot idea might not be in your best interest but thanks I like sparing with you. 
 

Umm, you're talking to a guy who has 4 driving FE engined vehicles and not one of them has an aluminum head on it.

If you can get a head produced, I'm all for it. But it's not us you have to convince, it's the guy with $150,000 laying around

[YoungOne]

CJ. That is what I am trying to do, I have E.mailed a few retailers of FE parts to look in on this debate, and if I can allay some of there fears by having a lively and friendly discussion with the members of this forum such as yourself, and get ones such as Joe-JDC to offer technical information. Along with Mr.Robotnick and Mr. Brown offering there point of view as ones who HAVE introduced new products plus the fact that they 1) Are selling and 2) Making a profit. Then perhaps they will in turn inform there suppliers who in turn might get involved. I think that the FE platform has proven that it is here to stay and that there are people who will do what ever it take to keep it going. The people like Joe, who ports the stuff to Barry who casts and sells it to Jay who finds a small niche part and makes it go, to you and me in a small way who run it and have no qualms about standing up and defending with all we have. So  every on PLEASE keep it coming I will do my best to counter any argument you put before me because it might work and I hope it dose.

On a side note Barry you stated something about one of the fellows at Genesis is making a go could you PM me his info if you have it. Again this is my opinion but I 'think' an affordable Iron head would be just what he would need to keep the bread and butter coming seeing that he cast iron all ready?

lastly how do I add a picture. "DOH!"

[ScotiaFE]

Pictures are always good.

As per Jay's instructions:

There are two ways to add photos to your messages.  When composing a message you can click the "Additional Options" link at the bottom of the message composer window, and put a file location from your computer into the "attach" box.  The photo will appear at the bottom of your message.  You can also embed photos in your message, but in order to do so the pictures must be hosted on an internet site. One site that is free and works well for this is photobucket.com. After joining this site and confirming your email address, you can log in and upload your photos to your Photobucket account. After uploading you can click on a photo and a box will appear below it that has several selections for copying and pasting a link to the photo. Click on the img code line to copy the link, and paste it into your message here. Other hosting services for photos can be used in the same fashion. You can also post a picture directly from any web location using the web location surrounded by image tags (http://web location.jpg, where "web location.jpg" is where your photo can be found on the internet). 

See Rules

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2.0

I like the photobucket way as everyone can see what's going on.
Even the lurkers.

[matt souders]

For the sake of beating a dead horse and keeping this alive, aluminum heads are available for the ford 200 6 along with a detachable aluminum intake. I find it hard to believe that there is enough market for them yet there seems to be. So a cast iron aftermarket fe head doesn't seem so far fetched. It's just a matter of convincing the right people/ person. I'd personally love to see it. Some might not understand what a $200 dallor savings means to an average joe but I can tell you that being 30 and working for the last 15 years just so I can drive my first car for the first time a $200 savings on a single item (pair) helps. Jmo.

[Drew Pojedinec]

yeah... but if you are that strapped for money, why not just get a set of factory iron heads?
Seems like I could get factory D2TE heads for $200 all day long that are good enough that I could take them apart, clean them and run them.

If you are that strapped, post on this site that you need a set of factory iron heads in good condition rebuilt on a budget.
I'm sure someone (like myself) would ship some old heads to a builder for you and they'd probably be finished for a couple franklins total.
I'm also sure that some of our esteemed FE professional builders pull iron heads off all the time that are in good shape and haul them to the scrap yard.  They'd be happy to toss them your way.

I personally (and it seems the poll reflects the same) would want a head more like the Felony or BBM head.  Something that has good horsepower potential with little work, has a modern chamber, and good air velocity for general street usage.  THAT is where the real gap in availability has been historically.

Along the same lines, I'd sooner see more effort put into a cheap, available off the shelf 427 block, than annoy someone into making reproduction 390 blocks.  Why bother having them cast a 390 block, when I can still find them for $250 in perfect condition?

[Drew Pojedinec]

Here Matt.  I made a post in the classifieds:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2673.msg26206#msg26206

[YoungOne]

Matt we are in the same boat. However, there is hope as Jay's survey shows the Iron heads pulling away from the ED'S . Mr. Robotniks and the BBM's will win out I am sure, but that is not where I want to go. Drew if you noticed his post and I am assuming here, but he was referencing an affordable Performance head. NOT a Race head. Mr. Robotnik stated that the ED's at there price point are a good stock replacement, not a race head. Which is why he moved on to his own head. Now I will consed that IF the last year Ford sold the FE format was 2000 this would be a moot discussion. However. when Ford changed castings within the year (Thus the reason for so many different 427 LR castings I.E. C3AE-D, G, H, J) for the FE it was for race development. Now if they had that kept up to this day we would have truly something spectacular and are only getting closer after people like Mr.Robotnik and A.T Francis have pushed the envelope. This is a good thing it has exposed the FE to a new generation.
But the last casting development was finished what 43 years ago? So the young guys have again old iron that while it can be ported to do well would cost as much as the Ed's to run or for a mere $800 more a set of real performers only a weeks pay at 25/hr hope you don't have any bills. If you ask me that sounds unfair. Not to say those that WANT to run the old stuff should buy a set of new Irons nor should those who can afford and want to run the top shelf fell guilty. Rather an in between, a real in between. You mention an affordable 427 block, why? When most of those who buy them expect to pay 5000+ after it is all said and done? It is the accepted going price isn't it? I will tell you why. You don't got it, and you don't want to go and sleeve a used up block just in hopes it will run. But you say with the same breath we don't need something that would make this hobby more affordable to the younger crowd. Or do you like it when the kid down the street dose little more then bolts a $1500 turbo onto his Honda 18b and walks you? Not to mention gets betters gas mileage and can afford to run his "hotrod" and you cant. Well to be honest I boils my buttons and I would rather see him in a Chevy but they too are getting pricey. 
So lets keep this going, how about we step this up and get into a technical discussion. What is wrong with the factory heads? Where are they the strongest and where do they need help? What would you change? Joe-JDC mentioned what he would like to see and I did too. CJ you run the old Iron so you have to have an idea / opinion or two? Mr. Robotnik  (Sorry about the miss spell before I got a hard name as well you should have called me on it I would have understood sorry.) When you see stock heads where do you do the most work? (Not asking for trade secrets.)

Thanks for all the reply's so far and thanks for putting up with me   

[Qikbbstang]

Doug Mr Med Riser in a Mustang -- I could not put a finger on anything other then MRs were 1965-67, but do Med Riser's have exhaust flanges compatible with the 428CJ vert & diagonal bolt arrangements? ..... Obviously you could I presume use vertical only bolts in a Mustang but that could be cause for suicide. Can MRs be drilled for CJ flanges?