Question for Joe-JDC and any other Pros who care to chime in---

[thatdarncat]

I understand what is being discussed about the 385 series engine, and I understand what the Force Boss 500 engine is. And we’re just having a friendly discussion here. Up until 2001 ( which was quite a few years now ) the rules in the nitro & alcohol classes still allowed a 4.90” bore spacing block, and nothing  specifically in the rules that prohibited a 385 Series style block or heads. Now I can’t tell you what the NHRA tech department said behind the scenes, and they didn’t have the “accepted” products on the website like they do now. 2002 was when the rule change to the 4.80” bore spacing went into effect for the nitro classes, and as time went on they have been adding specific rules for block material, camshaft spacing, maximum bore size, valve angles, etc., and it’s pretty much totally become a spec engine at this point. That’s all I’m pointing out. And that Ford didn’t pull out of the Force sponsorship at the time that those rules went into effect. I’d love to see the diversity & innovation too, and certainly like to see an actual Ford based engine, but it’s their stage. Here’s the except from the 2001 rule book.

[machoneman]

And that's my point. It may be their stage but that doesn't mean we need to support them. Let them fail and perhaps a new association, free of the NHRA dinosaurs now in charge, may give rise to a new and fair racing association.

[cammerfe]

My most grateful thanks to all who chimed in. I asked the question because I am part of an effort aimed at Land Speed Racing. This is very much in a suppositional setting at this point. The goal is to go significantly over 300 MPH in one mile from a standing start. It may take as much as 5K horsepower to get there and the specs are unlimited---I think we'll use methanol as the fuel of choice and have a 'spray' system involved as well. The power-plant will make use of multiple turbos and, just to thumb our collective nose at all-and-sundry, I expect to have 'EcoBoost' badging on the vehicle. All the major components will be based on FoMoCo designs. There will be a budget adequate for a first-class effort.

It had been my intent to make use of The B9 head, but it may make better sense to simply go to one of the alternatives mentioned above. Explorations continue and the planning is such that, as near as I can see now, it may be late in the year before all the issues start to come together. The current Chinese virus problem has virtually brought some of this to a standstill. I'll continue to use this group as a sounding board as we progress.

KS

[WConley]

Ken - Sounds like a very cool project 

[Falcon67]

My only comment here "other boneheaded NHRA moves that have proven to kill the sport. The 1,000ft rule," is that the 1000' rule is to help prevent being killed RUNNING the sport.  The tracks are not long enough to safely support the speeds and pretty much 100% do not have the room to expand the shutdown.  That includes the Tx Motorplex which appears to out in the middle of nowhere.  Track owners also are not likely to spend the money either - the 'plex bathrooms haven't been updated in over 30 years and the outer pits are a friggen rock garden.  Even the pro pits are deteriorating.  So it's either limit the length or reduce the speeds.  Can't have both. 

[machoneman]

My only comment here "other boneheaded NHRA moves that have proven to kill the sport. The 1,000ft rule," is that the 1000' rule is to help prevent being killed RUNNING the sport.  The tracks are not long enough to safely support the speeds and pretty much 100% do not have the room to expand the shutdown.  That includes the Tx Motorplex which appears to out in the middle of nowhere.  Track owners also are not likely to spend the money either - the 'plex bathrooms haven't been updated in over 30 years and the outer pits are a friggen rock garden.  Even the pro pits are deteriorating.  So it's either limit the length or reduce the speeds.  Can't have both.

Speed's the way.

Yeah, they can eliminate Ford engines but those numbnuts couldn't for the life of them figure out how to cut speeds and make racing nitro cars far cheaper. I can quote a ton of great ideas bandied about just from my old pals who did run these dragsters for years on how to slow down the nitro cars and regain true 1/4 mile racing. Blower speed, blower size, # of magnetos, reduced nitro loads, reduced injector hat lines, only one much smaller fuel pump....and the list goes on and on.

[gt350hr]

   NHRA is all about "entertaining the fans". Force says it all the time and I'm sure that's based on what NHRA tells it's "entertainers". Pro Stock empties the grand stands in a hurry. People actually go back to the stands to watch Factory Stock but NHRA is playing with the rules there to make the racing equal.  A big bucks "no prep" race draws more "fans" than a NHRA National event!  People laughed when I said NHRA is the next WWF/Monster Jam. Guess what , we are there. Nascrap is almost there and will be next year , mark my words.

    Safety or not the "rules" are killing the sport.

[babybolt]

KS - what body/car would you use to go 300 mph?

[Falcon67]

   NHRA is all about "entertaining the fans". Force says it all the time and I'm sure that's based on what NHRA tells it's "entertainers". Pro Stock empties the grand stands in a hurry. People actually go back to the stands to watch Factory Stock but NHRA is playing with the rules there to make the racing equal.  A big bucks "no prep" race draws more "fans" than a NHRA National event!  People laughed when I said NHRA is the next WWF/Monster Jam. Guess what , we are there. Nascrap is almost there and will be next year , mark my words.

    Safety or not the "rules" are killing the sport.

True as stated.  However- it's always been a show.  Wally knew that from the get-go.  Safety yes, but buts in the seats pay the bills.  Racers don't always see it, but at the Pro ranks - yes, you are an entertainer.  No entertainment, no fans.  No fans, no sponsors.  No sponsors, no money.  No money, no pro sport.  No getting around that.  The "show" has lost a bunch of it's luster, and that's pulling people out of the stands.  Pro Stock's problem is anything in any body, why would any manufacturer - except GM because most of the parts are GM - car to even participate.

 We have a Top Fuel racer that comes to our bracket races when he can - because it's fun.  Nobody asks for autographs, we're all just racing.  And maybe win $25 or $500 or $1200 or so.  Or not.  The big No Prep stuff draws well because of the TV exposure and because it's heads up and nuts.  This pulls in people that haven;t a clue but it's exciting to watch.  Same about as when Pinks was running - the pits were full of "fans", just that most of the "fans" didn't have damn clue what a real race might be and in a lot of cases didn't have the sense to get out of the way of the cars trying to get to the lanes LOL.  Pro Stock, Super Comp, index racing, bracket racing require a "skilled" fan that either has run the eliminator or gets entertained by the technical details.  I enjoy bracket racing, it's what we can afford to do as a family, but it's not much a casual spectator sport.  We draw very few spectators.  Can't get any TV, radio or even print coverage to the point of not even printing results.  If it's not stick and ball, they don't care.  We relay on Drag Champ, Dragzine, etc to show our "heros".  I send write ups for our races once in a while to NHRA for hopefully publication in Member Track News.  Best PR we can get LOL. 

[cammerfe]

KS - what body/car would you use to go 300 mph?

The race version of the '06 Ford GT, such as the Robertsons used several years ago to win a podium place in class at LeMans. I am hoping that I can use a Porsche dual-clutch transaxle.

I was told today that I'm going to have to fit a sixth head-stud to be able to hold the expected boost. It's just one more question to solve. Using a billet block gives me some latitude as to placement.

As another  question, what do you guys think of the use of a flat crank on a 500 CID engine? Will the harmonics be too much?

KS

[WConley]

Ken -  V8 flat-plane engines north of five liters get a bit crazy with second order vibration.  We had a rule at Ford that any four-banger over 2.3L got balance shafts.  (There was an exception in the 2.5L pushrod HSC engine, but that was a low-revving turd...)

A flat-plane V8 is basically two four-bangers, so you can extrapolate from there.  A 500 inch motor would probably stay together, but it wouldn't be pleasant.  The biggest advantage of a flat plane V8 is quicker revving.  (Exhaust scavenging is a bit better too, but that advantage is likely minimal with a race exhaust.) 

Since you're doing a land speed car, quickness to rev is probably not a big deal.  I'd prefer a cross-plane crank that lets you keep parts on the car during the run.

[frnkeore]

Personally, I like 180 cranks, in a V8 but, they do have a history of vibration.

Just recently, I read that the reason, for the vibration, is because all the weight is generated a cross from each other and not distributed more evenly around the crank, causing a undampened, "jerking" motion on the valve train, during the exhaust pulse.

Think of it as a rubber band, going back and forth, twice a revolution @ 90 deg from each other. As a though about how it might be dealt with, you might use a flywheel and dampener, with opposing weights at 90 deg to the throws. I think they may need a stronger flywheel retention for a BBF type flywheel.

Quotes are my opinion, only.

From what I've read, it has been dealt with by using dampeners in the valve train and long chain drives help the dampening, in DOHC designs. Some sort of dampener might be able to be made for the timing sprocket.

I wouldn't run one  for a record run, this year but, if you have the money to burn, I think there is HP in it, if you can work it out.

[cjshaker]

I'm guessing this venture is to go after the M2K Motorsports record set last year in the Ford GT at the Texas Mile? I don't think power will be your problem, but traction. Getting the car moving through the first 3 gears will be a major challenge. Are there any rules against all-wheel-drive? Those guys at M2K have been at it for some time, and they really have their combo worked out well, but traction is still a major issue in getting the car up to speed, even at considerably less than your stated horsepower goal. Either way, good luck and I hope to see more about this.

[Richard F]

My only comment here "other boneheaded NHRA moves that have proven to kill the sport. The 1,000ft rule," is that the 1000' rule is to help prevent being killed RUNNING the sport.  The tracks are not long enough to safely support the speeds and pretty much 100% do not have the room to expand the shutdown.  That includes the Tx Motorplex which appears to out in the middle of nowhere.  Track owners also are not likely to spend the money either - the 'plex bathrooms haven't been updated in over 30 years and the outer pits are a friggen rock garden.  Even the pro pits are deteriorating.  So it's either limit the length or reduce the speeds.  Can't have both.

Speed's the way.

Yeah, they can eliminate Ford engines but those numbnuts couldn't for the life of them figure out how to cut speeds and make racing nitro cars far cheaper. I can quote a ton of great ideas bandied about ujust form my old pals who did run these dragsters for years on how to slow down the nitro cars and regain true 1/4 mile racing. Blower speed, blower size, # of magnetos, reduced nitro loads, reduced injector hat lines, only one much smaller fuel pump....and the list goes on and on.

Yep, much like the Brian France destroyed nascar...there are many ways to slow the cars WITHOUT restrictor plates, for example, but they refuse to implement any...I guess they LOVE the"big one".

[cammerfe]

I'm guessing this venture is to go after the M2K Motorsports record set last year in the Ford GT at the Texas Mile? I don't think power will be your problem, but traction. Getting the car moving through the first 3 gears will be a major challenge. Are there any rules against all-wheel-drive? Those guys at M2K have been at it for some time, and they really have their combo worked out well, but traction is still a major issue in getting the car up to speed, even at considerably less than your stated horsepower goal. Either way, good luck and I hope to see more about this.

Actually, I'm more interested in going after the special version of the Bugatti Chiron. It was driven in a 'flying mile+' series at a huge oval testing track in Germany that is part of the Volkswagen operation. They came out of the curve at one end at something close to 200 MPH and got to 304 MPH in the next mile+ before having to shut down.

The 'race' version of the '06 Ford GT has an all carbon fibre body and has had significant smoothing of the front shape and flaring around the wheel openings. We'll be using an engine management system that will be able to keep upper RPM accelerating as fast as the traction will allow, by controlling the boost. All wheel drive has also been considered. It'll be a multi-year effort, I'm sure. (I have also retained a first-class suspension/air-flow control guy. The faster the car goes, the more down-force on the rear to aid the traction---all without bottoming out.)

My actual first goal is to get beyond 300 MPH so that I am 'competing' only against myself. Then I'm not doing any sort of competing---I'm creating.

KS