Guess the horsepower....

[blykins]

Got this one scheduled to be dyno'd on the 1st of February, so you have a lot of time to get your guess in.  Same rules as always:  I will post the uncorrected horsepower and whoever's guess is the closest without going over will win some goodies. 

*BBM block, 4.310" finished bore size
*RPM steel 3.980" crankshaft
*Molnar 6.800" connecting rods
*Racetec forged pistons, 12:1 compression, 1.5/1.5/3mm piston rings
*Trick flow cylinder heads, 2.190"/1.650" valves, no port work, setup with Manley Nextek valve springs and Manley titanium retainers
*BBM Tunnel Wedge intake manifold, no port work, with (2) HVH 1" Super Sucker spacers
*Carbs are Quick Fuel 725cfm custom carbs, no choke horns, etc.
*Camshaft is a custom solid flat tappet camshaft, nitrided, 262/270 @. 050", .640"/.663" gross lift with .018" lash, 109 LSA, 107 ICL
*Trend tool steel lifters
*T&D street rockers
*MSD Pro-Billet distributor
*Melling HV oil pump, with Milodon oil pan
*Powerbond race balancer
*Electric water pump, but turning alternator


A couple of build notes that may help some people in the future:

1.  The Trend tool steel solid flat tappet lifters pass a tremendous amount of oil the way that they come from Trend.  They have a .015" EDM hole in the face of the lifter for oiling but they have a .030" orifice under the pushrod cup to pass oil to the pushrods.  Trend also sells different pushrod seats, so I replaced the ones that were in it with .014" seats.  With full oil to the lifters, a .014" orifice in the pushrod seat, and .050" restricted pushrods, the oil to the top end is where it should be. 

2.  The BBM Tunnel Wedge has a cover plate that bolts to the bottom of the intake that's almost 1/4" thick.  It's held on by 1/4-20 socket head screws.   I had to cut the intake flanges .060" to get the intake ports to line up with the head ports correctly.  The intake *may* have sat down ok without cutting, but with cutting, the cover plate contacted the lifter valley bracing ribs on the BBM block.  There was also one bolt that was close enough to a rib that it would not allow the intake to sit where it needed fore/aft on the block.  It would contact the rib and would lock the intake in so that it couldn't be moved where everything lined up. 

3.  The T&D street rocker stands had to be milled a little over .200" to get the rocker arm pattern where they needed to be with the TFS heads.  Fortunately on the TFS heads, the rocker stand pads are so high that even when you whack the stands down, the head bolt heads are still below the surface of the pads.

[Stangman]

So somewhere around 470 cubes
659 UHP  @ 6550 RPM

[shady]

Since I am disqualified, if someone wants to use my guess,(Doug) go right ahead.
682.@ 6750

[cattleFEeder]

675 hp

[68fecyclone]

637 HP

[wcbrowning]

Off topic, so please excuse me, but wondering if you chose to sonic check this bock?  If so, would you please share the results?  I know what BBM claims is a safe max bore on their iron blocks, but it would be cool to know your first hand experience with the actual wall thickness on this block.  Thanks!

Got this one scheduled to be dyno'd on the 1st of February, so you have a lot of time to get your guess in.  Same rules as always:  I will post the uncorrected horsepower and whoever's guess is the closest without going over will win some goodies. 

*BBM block, 4.310" finished bore size
*RPM steel 3.980" crankshaft
*Molnar 6.800" connecting rods
*Racetec forged pistons, 12:1 compression, 1.5/1.5/3mm piston rings
*Trick flow cylinder heads, 2.190"/1.650" valves, no port work, setup with Manley Nextek valve springs and Manley titanium retainers
*BBM Tunnel Wedge intake manifold, no port work, with (2) HVH 1" Super Sucker spacers
*Carbs are Quick Fuel 725cfm custom carbs, no choke horns, etc.
*Camshaft is a custom solid flat tappet camshaft, nitrided, 262/270 @. 050", .640"/.663" gross lift with .018" lash, 109 LSA, 107 ICL
*Trend tool steel lifters
*T&D street rockers
*MSD Pro-Billet distributor
*Melling HV oil pump, with Milodon oil pan
*Powerbond race balancer
*Electric water pump, but turning alternator


A couple of build notes that may help some people in the future:

1.  The Trend tool steel solid flat tappet lifters pass a tremendous amount of oil the way that they come from Trend.  They have a .015" EDM hole in the face of the lifter for oiling but they have a .030" orifice under the pushrod cup to pass oil to the pushrods.  Trend also sells different pushrod seats, so I replaced the ones that were in it with .014" seats.  With full oil to the lifters, a .014" orifice in the pushrod seat, and .050" restricted pushrods, the oil to the top end is where it should be. 

2.  The BBM Tunnel Wedge has a cover plate that bolts to the bottom of the intake that's almost 1/4" thick.  It's held on by 1/4-20 socket head screws.   I had to cut the intake flanges .060" to get the intake ports to line up with the head ports correctly.  The intake *may* have sat down ok without cutting, but with cutting, the cover plate contacted the lifter valley bracing ribs on the BBM block.  There was also one bolt that was close enough to a rib that it would not allow the intake to sit where it needed fore/aft on the block.  It would contact the rib and would lock the intake in so that it couldn't be moved where everything lined up. 

3.  The T&D street rocker stands had to be milled a little over .200" to get the rocker arm pattern where they needed to be with the TFS heads.  Fortunately on the TFS heads, the rocker stand pads are so high that even when you whack the stands down, the head bolt heads are still below the surface of the pads.

[fryedaddy]

 i guess i will go with my first instinct  653 uncorrected at 7000 rpm

[machoneman]

691 hp uncorrected.

Added 6,705 rpm after Brent noted we must have both hp and peak rpms

[67428GT500]

690 uncorrected.

[temarey]

697 horsepower uncorrected

[wowens]

666 HP, uncorrected    @ 6850

[Tommy A]

I say 635.4 uncorrected

[64gal482]

646 HP uncorrected.

Jose

[Drew Pojedinec]

Does the BBM fit two 750’s in-line or are you running them sideways?

[blykins]

Drew, these are 2x4 QFT carbs that mount inline.

[plovett]

596 hp, uncorrected.

JMO,

paulie

edit:  at 6750 rpm

[jayb]

Brent, when you go to the dyno try to get some weather information.  I will use that to calculate the correction factor for STP conditions.  I will need barometric pressure shown by the dyno, humidity, temperature of the air going into the engine, and the address of the dyno shop (I can use the address to plug into Google Earth to get an elevation of the dyno shop, and then find a nearby airport to get their barometric pressure, and see if those two values combined match up to the barometric pressure shown by the dyno).

The STP correction factor won't have an inertia factor built in, so if it is a DTS dyno then the STP correction factor will probably be a little lower than the dyno's correction factor, assuming all other values are equal.  My opinion, though, is that the inertia factor isn't really a valid correction, so I like to be able to calculate the STP correction factor, which is purely weather related.

I assume you will post the raw data and the corrected data?

[blykins]

Sure, I can do that.

[69Shakar]

715  uncorrected @6500

[sideoilercat]

707

[Machspeed]

608 hp uncorrected

[mn67]

628 uncorrected

[hwoods]

716 HP @ 7200 rpm

[e philpott]

669 hp …. this has a big solid like my 416, Brent are you using non-adjustable rocker arms on this one ??

[blykins]

No, I had a set of T&D streets earmarked for this build before my rockers came out.

[Dumpling]

What kind of fuel will you be using?

[blykins]

VP/Sunoco 110.

[mike7570]

597.8hp

[Joe-JDC]

617 hp @6500, uncorrected  Joe-JDC

[428 GALAXIE]

622 uncorrected.

[cjshaker]

580 hp

Cubic inch is 464, for those that aren't sure.

[Dumpling]

690

[Joey120373]

645 uncorrected

[TomP]

I will say 650

[Heo]

603/ 6430

[66FAIRLANE]

632.5 hp @ 6325rpm

[2ndgear]

592 HP

[plovett]

597.8hp

You Devil!  Now I have a 1.8 hp window! 

"596 hp, uncorrected.

JMO,

paulie"

[mbrunson427]

610HP

[Gregwill16]

627 hp @ 6750

[mmason]

601 HP

[Tobbemek]

609 HP

[mike7570]

597.8hp

You Devil!  Now I have a 1.8 hp window! 

"596 hp, uncorrected.

JMO,

paulie"

Actually I was figuring it off the hp my old tunnel port came up with when I plugged the numbers into some racing calculators.
The build specs are close to my old motor and I figured the new heads were going to make comparable hp to my old TP heads.

[BigBlueIron]

620hp 6300rpm

Edit to add rpm

[FirstEliminator]

612

[HarleyJack17]

572 Uncorrected 6,150 RPM

[FordEver]

615.5 uncorrected

[fryedaddy]

 Brent,i was wondering if someone hit it right on the number are there any rockerarms involved this time

[blykins]

Brent,i was wondering if someone hit it right on the number are there any rockerarms involved this time

Gotta hit the exact number and the peak hp rpm.

[6667fan]

667 uncorrected @6500 rpm

JB

[mike7570]

Brent,i was wondering if someone hit it right on the number are there any rockerarms involved this time

Gotta hit the exact number and the peak hp rpm.

Add 6,800rpm to my guess

[Reverend Motors]

686 CHP

[Sand hauler]

682 corrected hp@ 7200

[WerbyFord]

CORRECTED to STP 60F 29.92 dry sea level, turning water pump only as SAE gross:
2x31 headers
Torq 632 at 4700
Powr 708 at 7000

2.25x31 headers
Torq 632 at 4700
Powr 745 at 7000 +37 wow

UNCORRECTED? Let me hunt down what the un-correction was last time! I agree w Jay/s comments re getting the weather, alt, & air the carb saw going in.
OK it looks like last time the uncorrection factor was about 0.931, SO, uncorrected Gonkulator predictions are
2x31 headers
Torq 589 at 4700
Powr 660 at 7000

2.25 x 31 headers
Torq 589 at 4700
Powr 694 at 7000

What are the header specs?
ok let's go with that, if the CR is really 12.0??? (Turns out I had a good match on the last 392cid at actual CR=11.0!)
Good luck on the dyno!!!

[blykins]

I’ve pushed back the dyno session until the 8th.

Werb, there was a typo last time on the compression ratio.  No typo this time.

[WerbyFord]

I’ve pushed back the dyno session until the 8th.

Werb, there was a typo last time on the compression ratio.  No typo this time.

Cool! These are fun for everybody, lots of work for you!
Are the headers still 2" primary?

(I know, I found the typo discussion. Sometimes a bad popup design will "act" like a 1.0 CR compression drop, but almost no way to predict that. Glad it was just a typo, the Gonk agrees much better at 11.0 for that 392cid.)

[Stangman]

That 660 looks good for me Werby

[Sand hauler]

Make that 682 uncorrected hp @ 7200 instead

[fastf67]

641 @ 6800
Interesting to see the Trick Flow non ported heads stand with the large cam and intake manifold.

[countrysquire]

651

[DubyaTF]

678 @ 6200 rpm

[Dumpling]

@ 6900

[blykins]

Sorry guys, gonna have to push it back another week.   The engine is sitting on its cradle patiently waiting, but the builder came down with the stomach flu. 

In addition, it's supposed to be 66° here tomorrow with thunderstorms and then 18° on Friday, with high of 30°.  I don't mind the cold, but really don't wanna drive on ice. 

[64gal482]

I need to add @ 6700 rpm to my previously guesed 646 HP uncorrected.

Jose

[blykins]

I didn't think today would come....

Been through about 3 weeks of ice/snow, stomach flu, a head cold, another strain of stomach flu (I like to experience them all if I can) and then my wife got sick.  Good stuff.  I still don't feel well, but I hated to delay another week.  The owner was dying to hear the results.

With that being said, it was a long day with a valve spring change after break-in, and I didn't get a chance to get all the data that Jay asked for.  Sorry Jay. 

So the dyno showed a 7% correction today. 

Uncorrected peak hp was 632 at 7250. 

Corrected peak hp was 676. 

Uneventful day aside from a leaky screw-in freeze plug and a carburetor float that wasn't cooperating.  Clean oil filter, and the engine sounded clean and accelerated like a punk. 

I'm gonna go lay down.

[machoneman]

Nice....but who won?

Get better soon!

[Tommy-T]

Since we're playing the guessing game and we have the answer for horsepower, how about you Brent, making some guesses.

If you substituted the custom flat tappet used for a shelf 306S, how much would you guess that would hurt power?

Myself guessing that you mean by no porting that only a valve job was done and no tootsie roll action, would you guess the TFS head is the go-to part for this type of build?

Would you guess that a hydraulic roller could have made more power?

Of course you don't absolutely know the answers. Just asking for educated guesses.

[plovett]

That's a stout engine.

[e philpott]

Brent , does this use BBC rod journal or FE ? BTW nice build you have there

[wowens]

Dang, was high 34hp + 400rpm low. Nice build !

[blykins]

Since we're playing the guessing game and we have the answer for horsepower, how about you Brent, making some guesses.

If you substituted the custom flat tappet used for a shelf 306S, how much would you guess that would hurt power?

Myself guessing that you mean by no porting that only a valve job was done and no tootsie roll action, would you guess the TFS head is the go-to part for this type of build?

Would you guess that a hydraulic roller could have made more power?

Of course you don't absolutely know the answers. Just asking for educated guesses.

Tommy,

On paper, a 306S should be low on duration and lift, with lazier lobes and not enough split to really help things at high rpm.   However, I've been surprised before with cams that performed, "that shouldn't have"....  My guess is that it would be down 20-25??  It's just a wild guess at this point, since I've never ran one. 

I think there's even more power left in this engine if the owner wanted to get a little more aggressive with it.  He's running an A/FX Falcon, in a local (to him) class with a few other guys in it that just want to play and have fun.  He wanted something low-maintenance that made good horsepower.  This cam uses Comp's "Hi Tech" solid lobe, which is pretty easy on things.  I did nitride the cam and use tool steel lifters which have an oiling hole for added insurance.  I would have went solid roller, but the way these goofy TFS heads are, I was about afraid to start cutting on them for a T&D race rocker bar mount because I didn't know what I would get into.  You already have to mill the poop out of the rocker stands to get any kind of geometry whatsoever. 

These have a valve job and no sand roll action at all.  Buy them bare, do a VJ, assemble with correct valvetrain parts.  So in comparison to another build, a 465 ci Tunnel Port build made 696 hp and 588 torque.  Same compression ratio, same rod length, but the TP engine had a solid roller with same duration and about .750" lift.   Those TP heads were ported/filled and flowed 370-380 cfm.  I think that says a lot for the TFS heads, performance-wise.  These were the second set that I've used and I've been pretty pleased with them.  In addition, they only needed 30° total timing where the TP heads needed 40-41. 

Since I have had two builds with out-of-the-box TFS heads, I'd like to do 1-2 with some worked pieces.   They have a turbulent spot in them at around the .650" lift mark and I think they could be improved on a little.  Still, for the price, I think they are really nice pieces, even with the hoops you have to jump through to get them to work right. 

Would a HR have made more power?  Nah.  At the level of duration necessary for this size engine and rpm range, the advertised duration for a hydraulic roller would have been astronomical.   The drawback to a HR camshaft is that the lobes are normally way less aggressive, so the advertised durations are relatively high.....which increases overlap.....which can make an engine very inefficient.   This camshaft has 86° of overlap.  A  hydraulic roller of this duration range, even with a 114 LSA, would have had probably around 95° of overlap.  We're just bench racing here really, but I just don't think a HR would have been competitive at this level. 

[blykins]

Brent , does this use BBC rod journal or FE ? BTW nice build you have there

Eric, this was an RPM crankshaft with BBC rod journals.  I used Molnar 6.800 BBC rods.

[Leny Mason]

That is impressive, I would be happy with that horse power in My Mustang or My 1961 Unibody or My Comet or My 1972 F 100 Well done Brent.

[1968galaxie]

Very nice build!
1.45 hp/cu inch - awesome for a street type build.

Love to see some finished engine pics.

[garyv]

Pretty impressive numbers for an essentially out of the box head.  Takes a lot of work for the old iron to
compete with these new heads.  I tend to like the old stuff but at some point you finally have to finally realize
these new heads may be the way to go.  Makes he think about selling my HR stuff. 

garyv

[1968galaxie]

How do you think these TFS heads compare to say Edelbrock cnc heads or the BBM versions with the same short block/camshaft and intake manifold?
Are the TFS heads further ahead in making power over the other cylinder head offerings?

You have had as much experience as anyone wrt FE builds. Are these heads better or just as good as other offerings?
I am sure you have an educated opinion.

Cheers

[fryedaddy]

How do you think these TFS heads compare to say Edelbrock cnc heads or the BBM versions with the same short block/camshaft and intake manifold?
Are the TFS heads further ahead in making power over the other cylinder head offerings?

You have had as much experience as anyone wrt FE builds. Are these heads better or just as good as other offerings?
I am sure you have an educated opinion.

Cheers

thats what i been wondering.it would be nice if someone had the time and money to compare heads.you could throw a set of bbms or eld-cnc heads on and see what the diff is.  somebody will one day.

[Joey120373]

Thank you Brent, nice build and I hope you and your wife get to feeling 100% soon.

I can’t help but think the relatively small intake ports on these heads ( for the hp they are able to make ) will make for a very fun responsive engine.

[WerbyFord]

How did peak torque come out?
The Gonkulator was about 40hp low on both corrected & uncorrected power so that says a LOT for those TFS heads.
They seem like about the best out-of-the-box heads yet.

Then again the FE came out 60 years ago, its about time!

[blykins]

Thank you Brent, nice build and I hope you and your wife get to feeling 100% soon.

I can’t help but think the relatively small intake ports on these heads ( for the hp they are able to make ) will make for a very fun responsive engine.

I think they're pretty nice too, but could probably stand a smidge more volume for larger engines pulling higher rpms. 

[blykins]

How did peak torque come out?
The Gonkulator was about 40hp low on both corrected & uncorrected power so that says a LOT for those TFS heads.
They seem like about the best out-of-the-box heads yet.

Then again the FE came out 60 years ago, its about time!

5000 rpm torque peak.

[chilly460]

Very nice numbers, the rpm for peak HP surprised me, I really thought it would come in around 6800rpm or so. The small ports hang in pretty well to let it RPM, and obviously the tunnelwedge has no problem supporting the heads up top.  Nice spread between tq and hp peaks, engine should be fairly flexible. 

[WerbyFord]

Okay, 5000 rpm, uh, what was the torque at that 5000 peak? (Corrected &/or Uncorrected)?

How did peak torque come out?
The Gonkulator was about 40hp low on both corrected & uncorrected power so that says a LOT for those TFS heads.
They seem like about the best out-of-the-box heads yet.

Then again the FE came out 60 years ago, its about time!

5000 rpm torque peak.

[blykins]

Sorry Werb, I thought I listed it.  I put the video up on my IG page and listed it there.

It made 595 lbft, corrected.

[shady]

unless I missed someone it looks like mn67 is the winner. 67Fairlane was right on but went over by .5   Thank God I didn't win, I don't know if I could have afforded it.

[66FAIRLANE]

[mn67]

unless I missed someone it looks like mn67 is the winner. 67Fairlane was right on but went over by .5   Thank God I didn't win, I don't know if I could have afforded it.

As much as I like goodies it is hard to argue with a .5 hp guess. Brent please feel free to send the swag to Mr. 66Fairlane. Unless of course you are in a giving mood and the prize is your new rocker arms. 

Mike

[66FAIRLANE]

I was just in it for fun, I think the freight to Australia would be worth more than the goodies! Quite happy for you to grab the goodies Mike.

I was a fair bit out with my rpm (which was just a zero added to the hp anyway)

[cjshaker]

Since nobody wants the goodies, send the T-shirt to me, Brent. I'll wear it, even out in public, despite the fact you stole all the 660's

[blykins]

unless I missed someone it looks like mn67 is the winner. 67Fairlane was right on but went over by .5   Thank God I didn't win, I don't know if I could have afforded it.

As much as I like goodies it is hard to argue with a .5 hp guess. Brent please feel free to send the swag to Mr. 66Fairlane. Unless of course you are in a giving mood and the prize is your new rocker arms. 

Mike

Shoot me your address sir.....

[mn67]

Thanks Brent,

I do like this game.