FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Sand hauler on November 18, 2019, 11:27:49 PM
-
Was looking at Jay's timing cover and timing chain set as was just wondering how,other than loctite do you keep it from the adj bolts backing out and it jump time? Are there spacers that go in and keep it from moving as a backup precaution? It's a nice set up,but was just wondering
-
Threadlocker and torque to spec. It's the way a lot of belt drive setups are made as well.
-
Thanks Brent , I thought so,but just wanted to make sure. It's a pretty slick set up. :)
-
Maybe not required in this application. But food for thought.
With performance mechanical diesel, injection pumps use a gear of similar design to Jay's. It is common practice while timing the pump to set the gear up so the bolts are bottomed out in the adjustment opposite in direction of rotation. If that cannot be achieved once pump timing is set and all bolts tightened remove 1 and make a spacer usually out anything steel that fills the gap between the bolt on the gear so that you can just barely get the bolt started. In the event the gear slips it doesn't have anywhere to go. There are some manufactured spacers that come in varying sizes that fit perfectly but these are more of a convenience vs. making something out of scrap. We have used things as silly as a sawed off nail in $30K engines.
Many times on tear down or timing change you can see the made up shim/spacer has been doing its job from the witness marks or even smushed a little, all hardware is still tight. Granted these pumps take quite a bit of power to turn but for the 10min to whittle something out I would, it certainly won't hurt.
-
A very good point, and part of the reason for my question. Might not be needed in this case, however definitely would be cheap insurance I would think. Just a thought
-
If it is a large enough concern to you, you could also replace the adjustment bolts with different ones and safety wire them. I decided to swap mine for some ARP 12pts. I just used Loctite and feel they will be fine. Just be sure to watch the threads sticking out the back of the gear and if you are planning on running a fuel pump/eccentric, that the bolt heads don't stick out too far to hit the lever. I snuck my set with the ARP's under a factory cover. Just needed a minute with the grinder to clearance one casting rib on the back to clear the bolts.
-
I've run them on a couple of engines now, including the 428CJ in my rolling test bed 68 Mustang, and my 504" 725HP dyno mule, without any issues. Blue Loctite and torque to the spec in the instructions, 16 foot pounds I think. It should actually be stronger than a belt drive setup because the diameter of the 6 bolt circle is bigger than the belt drives I've seen, giving more leverage to hold the two gear halves together.
-
As long as the bolts are properly torqued (and set with Locitite for us paranoid folks), the timing isn't going anywhere.
A lot of the newer Ford engines set timing with a single bolt through the center of the sprocket into the cam. It's a decent-size bolt, and the direction of cam rotation wants to tighten the bolt, but that's enough.
Those bolts clamp hard! A typical 1/4-20 bolt (grade 5) generates about 2,800 lbs of clamp load when torqued to 10 ft-lbs (dry).
-
Thanks for all the replies , first I would like to note that since Jay has it I know that it is of excellent quality . Second,it was just a what if thought and question ,no offense ment to Jay.
-
Jay, would be possible to get a picture of the drive? I haven't seen it.
-
It's on his website
-
I have run the prototype of the adjustable timing set in perhaps three or four Engine Masters entries now and perhaps a couple hundred dyno pulls, many beyond 7000 RPM. Zero issues of any sort.
-
Thank you sir, that says a lot
-
Jay, would be possible to get a picture of the drive? I haven't seen it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY3BH4Rw/25-CD992-C-A9-EF-4863-9617-E21-A6-DE81-EE7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bdywNX1n)
-
As long as we are discussing this, I wouldn't mind hearing from others on this site regarding advantages of the adjustable timing set and timing cover with the removable front plate. I have my own opinions on this, but at $249 for the timing set, or $469 for the timing set plus the timing cover, it wouldn't qualify as an inexpensive option for most folks. I build them because I think the combination is worth it, based on my own experiences. Here is what I've found over the years that led me to build these parts:
- Crank gear fit on the crankshaft: On all the Ford crankshafts I've used, the bottom timing gear slides into place fairly easily. However, when the aftermarket cranks started coming out, everything changed. Every single aftermarket crank that I've had, including cast stroker cranks, forged stroker cranks, and billet cranks, seem to have an oversized front snout, making it difficult to install the crank gear. It usually has to be pounded into place using a modified crank sleeve, a block of wood and a hammer, etc. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, especially if it leads to a more solid installation. However, if you install this gear and then degree the cam and have to change the cam timing, you are stuck with removing the gear that you just pounded into place on the crank, and reinstalling it in a different keyway. This is a huge pain, and if you're not careful you can damage the timing chain or the gear with the puller (ask me how I know this ;D ). With the FE Power timing set, this is not necessary, just loosen the bolts on the cam gear, rotate the crank to get the correct cam timing, and tighten the bolts back up. So in terms of engine assembly, I see the adjustable timing set as a big advantage.
- Compensation for too much compression: One scenario that really resonates with me is you put the engine together, get it in the car, and then find out you have too much compression and it pings under load. The normal course of action there is to retard the ignition timing. This costs horsepower all across the RPM range, plus you lose vacuum. If you have the adjustable timing set and the timing cover with the removable front plate, there is another option, and that is to retard the cam timing. In this case you will lose some low end torque, but in most cases you will actually pick up top end power. Also, my experience has been that retarding the cam timing 2-4 degrees does not affect engine vacuum. If you have a power brake car and you are on the edge of having too little vacuum, this can be important. Similarly, at the drag strip the adjustable cam timing may allow you to pick up some ET or MPH (or lose it, if you go the wrong way). Adjusting the cam timing is another tool in the tuner's toolbox, to help optimize performance.
Now, you can argue that the same adjustment can be done with a standard adjustable timing set, where the crank gear has multiple slots for the key, but that is a big, big job with the engine in the car. Since you may need to make 2 or 3 adjustments to dial everything in, it's just too much work. With the adjustable timing set and timing cover with the removable front plate, you only need to pull the water pump to expose the six bolts holding the front plate in place. Pull those and you have access to the cam timing adjustment. If you are fortunate enough to have a CVR electric pump with the FE Power adapters, you don't even need to worry about gaskets and sealer, because the timing cover front plate seals with an O-ring, and so do the adapters on the CVR pump.
- Compensation for timing chain stretch: Over time, every timing chain will stretch. I've noticed the chain being a little loose when taking apart nearly every engine I've disassembled. The one that I remember the most is when I got back from Drag Week in 2007 with my Mach 1, and pulled and tore down the motor. There were about 2500 miles on it at that point. I had installed one of those expensive Rollmaster timing sets, with the German Iwis timing chain, supposed to be the best chain available. That thing was loose as a goose when I got the timing cover off. My first thought was that the gears most have worn; it couldn't be the chain. So, when I reassembled the engine I bought another Rollmaster set, and installed it with the old chain to check. Still loose as hell!
Even a loose timing chain probably doesn't affect cam timing by more than a degree or two. But we try to build these engines precisely, and setting up the cam timing is part of that. I personally like the idea of checking the cam timing on my engines, and adjusting for chain stretch if necessary.
- Cam changes: Let's say you've got your engine together, and its not running the way you want. You think a cam change will help, but that's a big job you really don't want to undertake now that the engine is in the car. But if you have the timing cover with the removable front plate, it's a lot easier; you don't have to do anything at the front of the engine to get to the cam except remove the water pump and the front plate on the timing cover. My timing covers also ship now with a cam dowel that is internally threaded, making it easy to pull out so the top timing gear comes right off. If you are lucky enough to have one of my intake adapters, then you don't even need to break the water jacket or pull the distributor, all you have to do is remove 12 bolts to pull the 351C intake, then another 10 to pull the center plate off the intake adapter, and you can get right into the valley to remove and replace the lifters.
There are other advantages as well, but I've probably gone on long enough. Sorry if this has sounded like an advertisement for my parts; it is not meant to be. All the parts I build are designed to either fill a hole in the market, or improve the performance of our FE engines, and the timing set / timing cover does that very well. I think a lot of folks don't really understand all the advantages that this combination offers, but as a guy who has been building these motors since the late 1970s, to me they are a big improvement over stockish components. I'm biased, of course ;D
-
To be clear I in no way am questioning the design, quality or functionality. Just sharing real world experience with a "similar" design used in a "similar" way. I mean I do want one, for all the reasons Jay mentioned. But Jay one thing you forgot, they also look good!
-
Jay, there is a rather long thread on this forum about my struggles to get my 445 running right. If I'd had the option of the timing set and cover I'd have been really happy to be able to change cam timing a few times to get it right. As it was, removing the timing set required dropping the oil pan and removing the rad, then pulling the cover, balancer and gears. All told cost me about 10 hours of work. Now I know there are guys on here who can do it in 2 hours, but I'd never done it before, and dropping the pan with the engine in the truck was complicated. Getting it all sealed again was much more difficult than when it was on the stand in the first place.
Once I had it apart I didn't have the option of changing the timing and trying it, then advancing it some more and trying it again. Once it was buttoned up that was it. Now I'm happy that it is running well, but I wish I'd had the option of trying different positions. BTW it would be REALLY cool to be able to do it on a dyno.
In retrospect I would rather it wasn't almost $500, but I wish I'd had it. For what it is worth the Ford timing set was around $100, so the spend would have been an extra $400. In an odd way it may be worth more to an inexperienced builder than an old hand.
-
To be clear I in no way am questioning the design, quality or functionality. Just sharing real world experience with a "similar" design used in a "similar" way. I mean I do want one, for all the reasons Jay mentioned. But Jay one thing you forgot, they also look good!
No worries, I take no offense at your comments. Glad you like the looks!
-
Couldn't agree more with guys, like I said before Jay it is a very slick set up and being able to make changes while on the Dyno or in car is what I like best about it. Was just wondering or curious about how well it stays put and if anything else was needed for the long haul , 10-50,000 miles down the road.
-
FWIW - I have used the FEPower timing setup and cover and changed cams on the dyno in a stunningly short amount of time. Pull rockers and distributor. With a roller cam you just "grab" each lifter pair by the tie bar using a piece of wire or welding rod to pull them up a little and out of the way. Remove the electric water pump bolts and set the pump aside leaving the lower hose attached hose attached. Open up the cover and disassemble all the cam drive tidbits, slide out the old cam using a tool we made for the purpose - looks like an aluminum broomstick. Reassemble in reverse order. Damper, oil pan, intake and timing cover all remain undisturbed.
-
That really cool, don't suppose you have a pic of the tool?
-
I like Jay's timing set!
As a idea (and if I ever get one) you could time the cam at what ever you wanted to start with, then drill and ream (press fit one side push fit on the other) dowel pin holes, between bolts. Then time the cam in other positions (5 or more available) and do the same thing. Stamp the different locations to identify the advance or retard.
You can use a small slide hammer to pull the pins, when relocating the the timing.