Author Topic: Will this work for warmed up cj  (Read 9794 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Will this work for warmed up cj
« on: January 09, 2015, 09:38:43 PM »
I'm getting ready to order parts for my motor and just wanted to run it by you guys first to make sure I'm not getting something that won't work.
The block is standard cj , needs decking , bore , oiling mods
Stock cj heads needs guides ,valves ,springs has seat in already , light clean up of ports and bowls
1 ub crank turned 20/20
Standard cj rods need re sizing
I'm planning on using
Rpm intake
Srp pistons -22 relives +25 bore p#271152
Comp 280h cam kit with springs
Arp main studs
Arp rod bolts
Arp head bolts
Arp oil pump stup
Precision pumps +25 press and volume
Canton t pan
Rebuild factory adjustable rockers with billet end stand and supports with hd shafts
Cosmetic head gaskets
Fpa headers
I'm running a c6 so will probably have  loosen the converter up to run that cam but don't want to go much past 2000
I don't know why gear is in the car yet , I plan on pulling it in a few weeks. It has a locker in it and was raced so probably has a gear in it.
I want to keep the compression down to run on pump gas ,that is the reason for the -22 Pistons . I can play with the gasket thickness if needed to get compression where I need it
I'm going to cc a chamber on each head to verify size before I order piston  .
The rotating assembly will be balanced .
Will this set up work or do I need to rethink it?
Input would be appreciated thanks


69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7406
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2015, 11:18:56 PM »
I would have two suggestions.  First, skip the high pressure oil pump, just buy the high volume pump.  That will give you plenty of pressure.  Too many guys have put a high pressure pump in their engines and then had way too much pressure, breaking the oil pump driveshaft or blowing off the oil filter, whatever.

Also, if you have an adjustable valvetrain, why not go with a solid cam?  A Comp 282S would work great with that combination...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 08:00:45 AM »
Thanks for the reply, I wanted to run a roller but ,I ran into some problems while doing the sheet metal that cost more than expected. The upper and lower cowl was bad . I'm going to make some long trips with the car and don't want to be adjusting valves in a parking lot . If it was a roller I would use solid because they don't need adjusting as much as a flat cam and what you are actually adjusting is ware.
If I use the piston I have listed what do you think the compression would be?
How do the cometic gaskets hold up on a fe ? The reason I ask is I had a issue on a street motor with cometic but I think it was because it was iron block with aluminum head .
69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

Heo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 08:48:31 AM »
My opinion is that the constant valve adjustment
with a mecanical cam is just a myth
I have used a lot of mec cams and newer had to
adjust them regulary.  Just checked them once a year
if some hi perf engine
Most daily drivers i have had through my life have had
Mec cams and i made realy long trips with them and no
adjusting in parking lots
If you have to adjust the valves constantly some thing
else is wrong.Bent pushrods,worn rockers,worn cam or
lifters,etc etc.
And now im talking about cams with lift and spring preassure
that you want to use for a long trip not some 700 + lift cam



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7406
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2015, 09:31:41 AM »
I agree, unless the adjusters in the rocker arms are really loose, there is no need for constant, or even regular, adjustment of a mechanical cam valvetrain.  Maybe every 10K miles or so with a normal high performance solid cam.  Maybe not even that.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

shady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 10:08:51 AM »
I had a 65 comet with a boss 302 in it & never adj. lash the whole time I had it. prob. 7-8 years.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
2022 FERR cool FE Winner
2023 FERR cool FE Winner

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 10:09:46 AM »
First, I agree with the guys above and run solid flat tappet 99% of the time and have never had an adjustment change with aftermarket rockers, even after years and years.  Stock rockers if loose adjusters, different story, but that is a rocker issue not a cam issue and will apply with a hydraulic cam as much as a solid.  In your case, I'd either see if you can change the adjusters to the lock nut style or go with aftermarket roller rockers or crane iron adjustable

However, depending on the RPM you normally run, the cam choice isn't bad.  A 280H or XE274H cam is a nice street cam for a 428.  However, I think you are being overly conservative with compression and those pistons are likely not a good choice because of that.  Essentially you are compounding conservative things which gives up power.

First, the compression height, rod and 1/2 stroke stack = 10.150 with that piston.  That's .020 below, add in a .039 gasket and it is getting loose in quench, low in compression.  Assuming a 76cc chamber (iron tends to run on the high side) that's 8.88:1 compression, 9.12:1 if you zero deck.    Even zero decking, the 280H cam on 106 comes in at 7.24:1 DCR, which is giving up some torque and power.  Most shoot for just under 8:1 for conservative builds and about 8.3-8.5 for guys who don't mind watching for the right fuel, you are well below the conservative side and giving up power.

I think at the power level you seem to be searching for, I'd consider a 14271 Probe piston, it's a little shorter, but a 16.9 reverse dome.  Cut the block to 10.155, and run a .030 Cometic if you like those gaskets.  In addition, when you work the heads, cut them a little for a good sealing surface for the Cometic as well as ensuring you get to 74cc or less.  That combo at 74 cc gives you a 9.8:1 compression and tight quench

Then a 282S solid flat tappet cam is really a better choice than the 280H for power, and with a little fudge factor for lash, gets you to about 8:1 DCR on 106 ICL.

If you really want the hydraulic cam, it drops it to 7.7-ish DCR and will run well.

Other than that, I agree on the oil pump that it's not needed, but I don't think it'd hurt either if you already bought it.  I run an HV/HP in my 445 and an HV in my 489, and neither are restricted, but historically on cold mornings the 445 sure does climb in pressure, but I just run a good 10w40 and life is good.  In theory, compensating for the high pressure with a thin oil may assist in drain back but at that point I am just justifying my combo LOL

Thinking converters is good too, most guys miss it, but again, do not go too conservative.  A 2000 stall is likely only 200 rpm different than stock, Fords have a bit higher stall than your common Chebby, I'd be considering a good brand name 2400 rpm stall if you are spending the money or maybe leaving alone.  In the end, more stall will help and the fear of cooking the tranny really doesn't apply.

Your comments on the heads make me think you are underestimating the power there.  A light clean up on the ports and bowls generally means going cheap/stock  In my opinion, the valve job, to include the transition to the bowl and the guide area is cheap power and if you need valves and guides, consider at least an undercut stem, but going 11/32 would only help without too much more cost. 

I would have someone who knows what they are doing do the heads. Even if you don't get fancy with valve selection, a modern multi angle valve job and bowl clean up will gain you great power per dollar.  The ports, not so much, although I'd consider matching the top and sides to the RPM and ignoring the bottom as your heads will have a significantly lower floor, and having the MR port enter the head high can only help

Finally, I think the rod bolts are a good idea when prepping the rods, but I do not think you need main or head bolts if you are watching the dollar.  Its a few hundred dollars that really won't do much for you, especially head bolts.  Seems like blasphemy to say, but certainly Ford head bolts do well with iron heads.  The mains could be done for insurance if you cannot sleep at night, but if the mains torque up well, I don't see it as a requirement.  FWIW, my 489 has all aftermarket bolts except for the cross bolts head bolts for room and mains for the hell of it, but my 445 uses all Ford bolts and I have never had a main bolt failure ever on an FE, assuming the bolt torqued well at assembly.  If it didn't I just replaced it then.

Good thought on the entire build though, just a bit too conservative when you add repeated conservative choices IMHO and I am pretty conservative

« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 10:23:14 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

fastback 427

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 10:15:37 AM »
I have never had a fe ford with a loose rocker or one that was out of adjustment. Ever. My buddy with his BBC with guide plates and top shelf aftermarket valve train had his loosen up weekly. He even had one back off during a street race(which he then lost). I vote its a Chevy thing or has heo said a myth.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 10:22:50 AM by fastback 427 »
Jaime
67 fastback 427 center oiler 428 crank Dove aluminum
top end toploader
67 fairlane gta cross bolted 12:1 390 Dove aluminum top end c6 3600 stall
65 falcon straight axle project
67 mustang coupe project
76 f350 dually 390 mirror 105 4bbl 4spd
74 f100 xlt 390 c6 factory ac

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 10:44:46 AM »
Thanks, I was looking at the probe they are about 200 more than my cost on the srp but I will go to them instead, a friend of mine is doing the machine work he has a cutter that cuts the seat and bowl . I have no problem with the solid cam if you guys think it's the best option , will that cam build power up to about 5800 ? As for the cometic gasket I like them on my race motor but for street the felpro work better if I go to the probe I will try to use them instead that will off set the piston cost any way.you are correct about the pump it will cause problems with to much pressure but I thought with the oiling issues on the fe it my help, that is why I ran it by you guys before I bought it .
69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 11:19:12 AM »
A couple of comments

1 - Solid is better IMHO if staying flat tappet, it is what I would do, but a hyd roller is a great alternative.
2 - You didn't mention adjusters, I think you should decide now, either lock nut adjusters or aftermarket rockers.  I wouldn't stay stock Ford interference adjusters on a long haul driver
3 - Changing the head gasket is significant.  Felpro 1020 is .041 compressed and should be OK with the Probes if you cut the block to 10.155, even 10.150 would be good, but the more you cut, the more you have to fit the intake.  If you go with the off the shelf Felpro it's like .051 compressed and you start to get out of quench benefits.  I would NOT run the blue builder Felpro gaskets with the pistons we are discussing.
4 - FEs don't have oiling issues.  Honestly, the only issue I know of, is too small of a pan in a front sump application.  It empties the pan, but you have an aftermarket pan planned, so it really isn't an issue. All you need to do is make sure the pickup stays covered (good pan) and the heads drain.  After that, I'd say almost anything else is internet myth.
5 - May want to talk to Barry about Mahle pistons.  He may have a compression height that will not need the block to be cut and would allow you an easier head gasket choice, but I am not sure what he has, but he has a nice chart to see the lines that fit certain bore and stroke combos

http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/FE_Kit_Selection_Page.html
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2015, 12:18:53 PM »
Yea I think I'm going to call berry about Pistons and may just let him do the heads. After I thought about it I would rather spend a little more on the piston and not cut my block . I have never used the probe and a little nervous about them , it's not that they are a bad piston just haven't seen them used. On his web site he has diamond for 700 to 800 or a mahal ,I have use them in the past and are good piston will consider them if I have the cash. Normally I wouldn't be to concerned on cost but I just spent 400 on torque boxes 500 on cowl 1000 on front suspension so it's getting a little tight .My rockers have lock nuts on the adjusters.
Thanks
69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 05:38:33 PM »
Brent Lykins is good too, may want to see what he has to say as well.

I run the Probes in my 445, they are nice pistons.  I run Diamonds in the 489, they are my favorite for a strong street/strip build because of their customer service.  I have used everything from everyone over the years except Mahle (I used their rings in my 489 but never tried their pistons).  Nowadays you can't go wrong with the aftermarket, lots of good stuff out there and the level of performance you are looking for is reasonable and affordable
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 12:28:51 PM »
Diamond has a piston that I think will work comp dis 1.675 dish - 14 bore at 25 over and Ross has one comp dis 1.675 dish -17 the probe has comp dis 1.665 dish -16.9 bore at 30 over. If I use the diamond or Ross i shouldn't have to cut the block much correct ? But I think I'm going to have to use the Ross I don't think the block will clean up at 25.
69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 01:04:34 PM »
That compression distance will put the piston 0.017" down in the hole.

D-(H+L+T)=d
D= Deck Height 10.17" stockish
H= Compression Height 1.675"
L= Connecting Rod Length 6.488"
T= Crank Throw/2  1.99"
d= deck clearance 0.017"

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 01:47:47 PM »
What should I cut the deck to stay just under 10 :1
69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2015, 02:13:05 PM »
If it was my 428, I would forget about the dish pistons
and get some flat tops and zero deck it and get the compression
up into the mid 10's.
Keep the timing cranked up and the rpm above 2500 and run it hard.
But I'm a bit of a cock eyed optimist.  ::)

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2015, 05:19:16 PM »
The Diamond with a 10.160 deck height and a 1020 Felpro would be about 9.7:1 if I read your post correctly (14 cc dish)

The Ross would be approx 9.5:1 at 10.160

Both using a 76 cc chamber

You'll notice I wont tell you how much to cut, because it depends where you are now, if I say cut 10 thou, and its already been cut, it'll be too much.  Need to have your machinist measure the decks and cc the heads first, either of those pistons could work depending on where the heads come in
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4827
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2015, 07:03:40 PM »
I use a little of everything....Mahle, Probe, Racetec, and Diamond.  The good thing about the Mahle piston is that they come coated on the crown and skirt.  They also use a 1.5/1.5/3mm ring pack out of the box. 

Diamond is nice because if you need to make one change, for instance, a volume change, compression height change, etc., it's a minimal upcharge, especially for us who have MWD accounts with them. 

Racetec is another strong shooter for nice pistons.  They will do full customs for me for around $550 a set. 

The Probes need a little "dressing" out of the box, but the Diamonds, Racetecs, and Mahles are all detailed really nicely out of the box and don't require much final work before you use them. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4827
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 08:04:52 AM »
Diamond Clevor piston....



You can see how the valve reliefs have all the edges broken.

Diamond 427FE piston....



Diamond 496FE piston....







Mahle SBF piston...





Mahle 482 FE piston....







RaceTec 501FE piston...(image says Mustangs & Fords magazine, their photo, but my article, and my engine....)

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

mike714

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 10:33:43 AM »
I'm waiting on my main studs to ge here when I get them going to hone the mains then measure the deck and cc the heads I'm pretty sure they have been cut . I'm trying to keep the motor under 10:1 I had some problems with the last 10:5 motor I ran on pump gas (inconsistent fuel from pump) . On my mercury racing outboard motors you can not have ethanol fuel in them so I use to have to test the fuel all the time . Even with stations that made the effort to supply ethanol free for us ,there suppliers would mess it up by putting non ethanol 91 in tank that previously had lower grade ethanol fuel in it ,and octane levels were all over the place and I had to usually mix 110 with pump gas to get 91 to 95 ethanol free. That is why I'm being cautious with my compression. I know what comes out of the pump. I'm not even going to mention water in fuel you you get from a gas station. If you are curious about your gas station go to any marine supplier and get a test kit bass pro use to have them too you will be surprised at what you find.
69 talladega, 06 f250 fx4, 99 f250 7.3 6 spd, 2011 f150 fx2, 2002 warlock 27 ft 511bbc, 94 Allison 2002 merc 280 efi 106.87 mph, HD vrod phat rod kit 110 RWH

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: Will this work for warmed up cj
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 03:41:33 PM »
We can get you there, don't worry, been running my 10.7:1 489 on anything from 87-91 (usually 89 or 91) since 2006 and my 10:1 445 on the same.

Static compression is only one part of it, tight quench, mixture, cam timing, engine temps, and of course ignition timing all come into play too. Lots of guys do what you want to do on here
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch