Author Topic: 427 Block s  (Read 14844 times)

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bn69stang

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2014, 06:12:40 PM »
Thanks for all the great feed back guy s , I will really put thought into this and i have seen in person both iron and aluminum  BBM blocks at blue oval performance , and i can say the casting and machining look great . the great thing about this forum is the knowledge and years of experience , and it greatly appreciated and used . And again this will be street car , but cubes rule .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

Rory428

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2014, 07:26:12 PM »
The BBM site claims 250 pounds for their iron block, which does sound heavy, but what does a factory 427 SO block weigh at standard bore, with a fill or Hard Block? I agree that 120 lbs or so off the noise would be nice, but an extra $1200. to get it kinda hurts. As for alum vs iron blocks for HP, my buddy has built a number of B1 headed MoPar big blocks and Hemis for a local racer (with too much $$$$!), and 1 big inch wedge made over 800 HP with a MoPar Performance iron block, and they later swapped all the internals into an aftermarket aluminum block, and it lost about 40 HP.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

cjshaker

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2014, 07:28:56 PM »
My new Sideoiler Garage block weighs 250lbs on my scales. That's unbored at 4.23 I believe, so some could be lost in a big overbore. That's about 50lbs heavier than my stock sideoiler block, but there's a LOT of beef added with siamesed bores clear to each bulkhead, .750 thick decks, webbing across the lifter valley (which could be removed), and solid main saddles with big billet caps.

From what I've seen of the BBM blocks, they are not siamesed between the end bores and the bulkheads, so to be about 7lbs heavier they must have some really thick casting elsewhere.

If you go with aluminum heads, water pump, pulleys etc, the weight should easily come back down to about what a stock FE weighs. Throw in a lighter modern intake, aluminum flywheel, cut down crank, lightweight valves (it all adds up) etc, and I'm sure you would end up lighter than a stock FE. Just something to think about.

I'd love to go aluminum, but the cost is prohibitive for average guys. Sorry, Jay, you're not average ;)  In the end I think an iron block is more of a long term piece as long as you don't blow holes through the sides. You can start small and get probably 8-10 overbores before you have to consider sleeving. Of course if you don't punch a hole in it within that time, you just ain't trying hard enough ;D ;D
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Barry_R

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2014, 08:08:49 PM »
Sideoiler blocks weigh in at +/-260 on my scale here.  Pretty close to other numbers.

The additional web across the deck that splits the front & rear water opening adds some strength to that wall - a nice feature.  They also have a billet main cap, but without the extra metal hanging below the fasteners.  You could make some sort of a case for the extra arch between the fasteners (its a bit of a "reach" considering the generous cross sections already there on the flat caps used by Pond and SG), but the piece between the fastener and the pan rail is simply a machining artifact that can be removed without any possible impact.

We've eliminated the pull thread in the center of the caps - just seemed like the wrong place to have a threaded hole.  We are considering putting two or three 9/16 threads just under the fastener spotface (an area under a compressive load) as a grab for a slide hammer for easier removal.  No decision yet on that.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2014, 11:56:24 AM »
From what I can tell, there has to be about 30 hp difference between a good modern iron block and a Shelby aluminium.  I have had two almost identical engines on the same dyno..........the iron made 920 hp, and with bigger valves and about 20 more cfrm through the middle of the lift, the aluminium engine made 900 hp with a top-of-the-line vacuum pump.  There was probably another 20 hp in the aluminium engine due to exhaust flange mismatch with my dyno headers (have checked it before), but the vacuum pump is worth something on the aluminium block, and the better head flow is also.  I think an iron block with the vac pump would show me 950 hp on that combo, and the alum 920 hp if I built a set of headers that fit the exhaust port correctly.  My opinion is 30 hp iron vs. aluminium with everything else a constant..............but that is at the 900+ power level.  In a 600 to 700 hp street engine, it is not that much, speaking linear terms, but there are other things to consider on the street.  The lifters will bleed more when hot, and the mains need to be "adjusted" for expansion on the aluminium........on the street or the track.   Power vs. weight, it is ALMOST a wash for a drag car.  The power would almost be offset (within a few hundredths) by the weight difference, but the car should "work" better with the weight off the nose.  In a road racer, with a dry sump, I say aluminium all the way.  On the highway, I lean toward the iron from the long term, trouble free use aspect.  JMO.
Blair Patrick

Barry_R

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2014, 12:25:53 PM »
I agree on the iron vs aluminum power deal.

While I have not got any hard evidence (most comparable ones I've done seem really close), I had a local contact that does a lot of very similar oval track builds.  He claimed a clear 20HP advantage on iron 600HP deals.  In his world that was worth the weight.

Can't speak for the BBM, but there are weight savings opportunities on the Pond, Genesis, and Sideoiler blocks.  Won't get you down to OE levels - but still worth looking at if you're trying to get closer.  The ribs in the valley can "go away" on iron, overboring to a larger size will obviously knock a bit off the scale.  You could mill a fair amount off inside above the pan rails - they added metal there cuz everybody always sees the windowed 427s - but that was never the block's fault. 

TomP

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2014, 01:35:44 PM »
All the bores punched out 1/8" is under 10 lbs. Probably a couple pounds more in those valley ribs but it's doubtful you can get it within 25 lbs of the factory block.
Has Pond made any of the graphite blocks?

jayb

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2014, 01:36:43 PM »
I have limited experience with big power cast iron blocks, but I do have one comparison that is pretty close to apples to apples.  The 511" Shelby block FE that I took to Drag Week in 2005 made 706 horsepower on the dyno before it went into the car.  A couple of years later, when I was building my dyno mules for the testing for my book, I used many of the same components over again on my 492" stroker engine, which used a factory cast iron block.  Same ported Victor intake, same Dominator carb, same set of ported Edelbrock heads, same Comp roller cam, same headers, etc.  Compression ratio was also the same, although the pistons were different because the bores were different.  That 492" engine peaked at 675 HP with that stuff on it.  The Shelby block engine made 1.38 HP per cube, and the factory sideoiler block engine made 1.37 HP per cube.  Now in fairness the walls on the factory 427 block were thin because it was bored .060", but I don't think the extra .030" bore would have cost 20 or 30 HP.  But who is to say for sure. 

I'm not going to be totally convinced on this until I see a real back to back comparison, with all components the same.  It'll probably never happen...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2014, 01:39:18 PM »

Has Pond made any of the graphite blocks?

I talked to Robert about those compacted graphite blocks a couple years back, and he sounded like he had abandoned the project...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Rory428

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2014, 07:59:48 PM »
 

I'm not going to be totally convinced on this until I see a real back to back comparison, with all components the same.  It'll probably never happen...
Hmmmmmm..., Hey Jay, ready to write a new book? How about :"The Great FE Block Comparo", plus you could update the manifold tests by adding a section using your adapter and all the various 351C intakes on your 3 different engines from the previous book. I guess asking for it to be finished in time for Christmas is un realisyic, eh? :o :D
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

jayb

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2014, 11:38:18 AM »
Another book LOL!  I'll tell you, Rory, I had plans to write "The Great FE Cam and Head Comparo" at one point, before I actually got going on writing my intake book.  But that book was a whole lot of work, and basically took me out of racing for a full year in order to get it done.  So I'm postponing any future books until I have more time, maybe when I retire or something...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2014, 12:35:03 PM »
Retire? Say it ain't so Jay....you have miles & miles of FE work yet to go!

LOL!
Bob Maag

babybolt

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2014, 01:10:06 PM »
Just throwing this out there...

The reason many aftermarket blocks are heavy is that it is easier to cast heavier walls than thin walls.  The OEM factory can throw lots more manpower at a casting project and can afford to throw away a bunch of blocks while troubleshooting the casting process.  The factory has a vested interest in keeping the blocks light partly because more metal is more money spread out over thousands of blocks means big money.  And they need to keep the vehicle weights within reason for fuel economy etc.  The big OEM's can afford extensive FEA and well as iterative destructive testing (keep adding weight until the blocks stop blowing apart).

The much smaller aftermarket guys just have to take an educated guess where to add metal to strengthen these old design blocks.  A lot of the extra material goes to the water jacket areas where its really not needed.  There was one shop in Michigan that had a CNC program to cut away the outside material off of 385 series aftermarket blocks, they were wacking off 40-50 lbs approximately.


bn69stang

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2014, 08:05:45 PM »
Retirement is for old people , none of are there yet right ? , anyway Jay more books would be useful  lol  ... Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

bn69stang

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Re: 427 Block s
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2014, 10:23:44 AM »
So far the iron block seems to be more popular for street , all i know is i ll be able buy only one , not one of each  lol darn the budget .  Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..