FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: My427stang on May 29, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
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My 445 has a noise, and has had a noise for a long time. It won't blow up, it's been apart twice since the original build for the noise, and I have found nothing. The only thing I haven't done is Zyglo the pistons. Heads magged, multiple cams, multiple rocker sets, multiple valve covers, clearanced the timing chain, multiple fuel pumps, nothing hitting down below, with or without PS, even reblocked to have tighter clearances because I originally built it loose, new balancer, clutch, flywheel, you name it.
In the video below starting at 25 seconds, you hear a tapping that sounds like a loose valve, it's much worse when cold. After all of this, my hunch is I have a bad piston, but I did not see anything on multiple inspections and it is silent at idle.
First request, listed to the video until you hear the minor tapping between 25 and 30 second point. Many people say they can't hear it, and it is tough, but once you tune into it, it sounds like valvetrain, although everything has been gone through multiple times.
After you hear it, generate ideas. FWIW, I have been in pure parts replacement mode for over a year, the absolute only engine I have ever been in this situation. The only things not magged or replaced are the pistons and rods, but my eyeball couldn't see or measure anything. The crank was magged and checked. All new parts,and it has made the noise since the original build without change
Thoughts, prayers? :o Been doing this a long time and haven't ever ran into one like this.
About ready to put the spare 390, or maybe buy an LS off Craigslist LOL
https://youtu.be/VlHIl9hafYA
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Doesn't do it at idle, you think it's a piston but consider it at valvetrain speed.
Can you replicate the sound without the engine under load? (like running 2,000rpms in the driveway?)
If so, have you done the ole "remove a plug wire" and see what it sounds like trick?
Other random thought:
On every Ford truck I've ever put headers on they all seem to just barely touch a crossmember somewhere. This often makes a random tick/tap sound, especially under load as the engine moves and twists.
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if its not the headers do you have floating pins in your pistons,i have a sbf that makes a noise,i was told it was a wrist pin.i also had a hole in my headers where it was hitting a cross member and i couldnt find it till i took the header off.it sounded like a medal tick or knock to me,but it wasnt
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Hard to hear on a video but sounds "hollow" like
a loose piston pin bushing or piston slap ???
Have you checked the pistonpin bushings?
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Thanks guys,
Absolutely not anything touching, had one tube originally close to the pan, but it has since been reshaped and I cannot make the noise in the driveway, wish i could, it takes a load.
I visually inspected all the wrist pins and small ends, and measured them too, everything looked good. They are full floating dual spriolock Probes. My hunch is, if it's a piston, it's only one. I wish I would have swapped sides last time it was apart, at least I could have heard it from a different direction. :)
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You turn left and accerelate lightly when the sound
is on the video....is it always under light Accerelation
mayby something hit somewhere when the torque
twist the engine and gearbox? something hits when
you turn left?
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Heo, good ears. I think it is always there under load, but when I open it up the engine barks pretty loud and you don't hear it.
When the engine is cold it is significantly louder and gets quieter with engine temp, so I believe it is internal. To back up since the build, I originally has a 270H cam and stock rockers, the noise started immediately an I found an odd lifter that I didn't trust, assumed that was the noise. Replaced it with a solid lifter Bullet and Erson rockers. No change in noise.
Tried a new set of Harland Sharps, found some loose tips on the pushrods, each time thinking I found it. Then I finally decided that I knew my bore was on the large size for that style piston, to I reblocked it to exact specs per Probe. Again no change.
Put some miles on it, it did not seem to get worse, but I didn't like it, so tore it down again, verified any potenital exhaust leak, had the heads and crank magg'ed, replaced the flywhee, clutch and pressure plate (mostly because it was designed for a lower perf engine, but also because I saw some heat checks on the flywheel) Had the block decked, magged, and checked closely, assembled yet again, but found a balancer that didn't look as great as when I installed it. No change.
It almost has to be a piston, however I never heard a wrist pin get quieter with higher temps.
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IF, and IF, I hear what you are talking about, it sounds like the timing is too advanced for an instant, and then the rpm catches up. I had a hard time selecting which video you had intended because each time I clicked on your link, I got a different video. I personally would check the advance rate just off idle and try to slow it down just a couple of degrees and see if it helps. Joe-JDC
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IF, and IF, I hear what you are talking about, it sounds like the timing is too advanced for an instant, and then the rpm catches up. I had a hard time selecting which video you had intended because each time I clicked on your link, I got a different video. I personally would check the advance rate just off idle and try to slow it down just a couple of degrees and see if it helps. Joe-JDC
Thanks Joe, and I chased that the other day as an experiment, tried everything from 4 degrees initial to 14, and it didn't change. Ran with and without the vac advance too. It's a pretty repetitive steady beat during acceleration. Additionally, it did it zero decked with the old block, .010 below with the current block and 1020s, and it's doing it now with 8554s and a zero deck.
It has me stumped, I don't think I have ever gone to pure parts replacement like I have with this in over 35 years of building. I appreciate everyone's input, at this point I am trying to rule out a set of pistons because it's a pretty steep experiment. Even had all the guide areas in the head magg'd to see if something cracked when Les Schmader pushed them in.
I am doing a little solid lifter 396, will likely swap it in and start Zyglo-ing pistons. Truth is, pistons and rods are the only things that haven't been touched, looked close at, but I'd hate to window a block if a piston comes apart
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I had a customer one time with a 59 impala sounded
like it had a missfire and a knock in the engine. The plate
in the distributor was frosen solid. So i rebuilt the dist
still missfiring still a knock sounded like the fuel pump
changed that ,still knocking and.... missfiring
chased my own tail for a while I finaly had it up on the lift
to trye to listen under it if i could locate the knock.....The
bottom of the right muffler oilcanned up and down :o i hit
it with a ballpen hammer and the impala run like a Dream
The knock gone the "missfire" gone
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Just take the mufflers off. :P
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Listened to the video at least a dozen times and I can't hear a thing.
Stuff like this can drive you crazy. I've had a bunch of these older trucks, and one thing I CAN say for sure is that they can get rattles, squeeks or undefineable noises that are hard (ie: near impossible) to track down. Are you sure it's not something inside the truck? As a for instance...when the wife and I were going to the FERR this year, out of nowhere, my '70 F350 picked up a squeek, actually more like a hard rubbing noise, inside the interior. It was rather obvious that it was inside (or so it seems, again, they can be deceiving because the cab basically amounts to a 'sound amplification box' >:(), and as you know, there isn't a whole lot of stuff in those interiors. BUT, there is a bunch of metal parts inside that cab that can give metallic sounds, and inside the cab it can sound hollow, tinny, or solid. She and I spent a LOT of time, pushing, pulling, shoving, tweaking...with our hands, feet and anything else we could use, against EVERYTHING inside that cab. NOTHING stopped it. Like yours, I noticed that it only happened during acceleration. As soon as I let up or evened out, it went away. Just the LIGHTEST application of throttle and it was there. Abso-freakin-lutely was driving me NUTS (I HATE rattles and squeeks!!)!! Now my only option is to strip the interior and re-do it piece by piece, making sure that everything along the way is solid and mounted good with no parts touching or rubbing. Luckily I was planning on stripping it this winter for a paint job.
I could give a list of dozens of places, inside and out, of things that have caused noises that drove me nuts on these old trucks. And inside the cab, they always sound worse. When I restore the '70, I will spend most of my time putting in sound deadener, mounting stuff super solid, making EXTRA sure that nothing can touch or rub, and even applying some sort of rubber or silicone isolators to metal parts that bolt or mount together. I know it will be the ONLY way to avoid those annoying noises.
May seem like that has nothing to do with you, except that noises can be, umm, irritating, to put it very VERY mildly. And old trucks are notorious for that. Good luck!!
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Yes that take care of many ticks and knocks 8)
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My 445 has a noise, and has had a noise for a long time. It won't blow up, it's been apart twice since the original build for the noise, and I have found nothing. The only thing I haven't done is Zyglo the pistons. Heads magged, multiple cams, multiple rocker sets, multiple valve covers, clearanced the timing chain, multiple fuel pumps, nothing hitting down below, with or without PS, even reblocked to have tighter clearances because I originally built it loose, new balancer, clutch, flywheel, you name it.
In the video below starting at 25 seconds, you hear a tapping that sounds like a loose valve, it's much worse when cold. After all of this, my hunch is I have a bad piston, but I did not see anything on multiple inspections and it is silent at idle.
First request, listed to the video until you hear the minor tapping between 25 and 30 second point. Many people say they can't hear it, and it is tough, but once you tune into it, it sounds like valvetrain, although everything has been gone through multiple times.
After you hear it, generate ideas. FWIW, I have been in pure parts replacement mode for over a year, the absolute only engine I have ever been in this situation. The only things not magged or replaced are the pistons and rods, but my eyeball couldn't see or measure anything. The crank was magged and checked. All new parts,and it has made the noise since the original build without change
Thoughts, prayers? :o Been doing this a long time and haven't ever ran into one like this.
About ready to put the spare 390, or maybe buy an LS off Craigslist LOL
https://youtu.be/VlHIl9hafYA
I could not make out the sound. Going by your wording I would suspect wrist pin or piston slap. Backing your timing low will add heat to the cylinders. If hotter cylinder temps make it quieter then it is likely piston slap or wrist pin. Removing a plug wire of course takes the heat away and will make a piston problem noisier.
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Not talking about initial setting, but the rate of advance just off idle. Seems too fast to my ears. I have experienced that with FEs and stroker sbfs. Slow down the rate off idle. Since the oil pump is driven by the distributor gear and shaft, you may be fighting yourself for an instant with the oil pressure. Just an observation. Joe-JDC
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Ross, what oil pan do you have on that truck? Its not that Canton pan, is it?
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Not talking about initial setting, but the rate of advance just off idle. Seems too fast to my ears. I have experienced that with FEs and stroker sbfs. Slow down the rate off idle. Since the oil pump is driven by the distributor gear and shaft, you may be fighting yourself for an instant with the oil pressure. Just an observation. Joe-JDC
Joe, I understood you, and it was a good idea, but I would think a change of 10 degrees initial would overcome too quick of curve. Heck I even cranked it back far enough it backfired on me on one run. It basically makes it 10 degrees less everywhere on the curve. That being said, I will map out the curve and put it on paper. It's not a very fast curve, it's a 4500 lb 4x4 truck and the noise is pretty rhythmic, unlike a quick onset ping, the odd thing is it seems slow for a piston noise, but I suppose it could be half speed with the cylinder only firing every other stroke.
I appreciate the ideas, and please keep them coming, even if i have already looked at them, like I said, if it was normal stuff it would have been fixed over a year ago. My hunch is still on a bad piston that I somehow missed, but I am getting sick of pulling this engine!
Ross, what oil pan do you have on that truck? Its not that Canton pan, is it?
Stock Ford 4x4 rear sump, aftermarket pickup and Ford windage tray. The pickup lives entirely below the windage tray, and I have ran it with and without the windage tray and headers have clearance to the pan.
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Would pulling one plug wire at a time and driving it at least help isolate which cylinder? Or would the resulting misfire be too noisy and cover up the rattle?
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Would pulling one plug wire at a time and driving it at least help isolate which cylinder? Or would the resulting misfire be too noisy and cover up the rattle?
I'd suspect you'd never hear the tick sound over the resulting knock.
You could find it this way maybe on a dyno, but I think it'd be real hard to hear/see it in the truck while it's moving.
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I'm not sure that you wouldn't be able to hear it. In fact, I'll bet you would still be able to hear it if you are tuned into that particular noise. What about it, Ross, worth a try?
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I'm not much help. I can't definitively hear anything either.
So the sound is rpm related and not speed related? And mostly under load? And louder when cold?
Those are the main clues I think you have? Does that fit your piston hypothesis? What exact piston issue do you think you might have?
Only other thought I had is can you quiet the exhaust down? Clamp some big-ass mufflers on to your tailpipes, or otherwise muffle it horribly?
paulie
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Would pulling one plug wire at a time and driving it at least help isolate which cylinder? Or would the resulting misfire be too noisy and cover up the rattle?
Yes that is a real test. It is a common practice in many scenarios. The noise a loose or cracked piston makes is unique. Once I had a noise on my own truck where I went through the same testing. Turns out my flywheel was lightly hammering idle-off idle due to the .009" end play.
Ross if you want to try a quicker thing thrust your crank back and fourth by hand and listen if you hear the same noise.
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Sounds like you answered my best guess - windage trays can make some amazing noises. That flat expanse of tin amplifies a small touch into one heck of a racket.
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Well my piston thought is potentially a crack, certainly not loose, not to mention when I reblocked, blaming it on piston slap because I originally built it loose, the noise didn't change with a tighter bore. I have measured bore clearance twice now and they are exactly where the manufacturer wanted them and straight as an arrow. FWIW they are Probe forged pistons, not the best out there, but the price was right and this was going to be a relatively low RPM stroker
However, if a piston was cracked, you'd think something would have let go by now, or at least you'd think it'd leave a mark, it's seen 6000+ plenty of times and more miles than you'd expect, also no funky wear on the bores or pistons
Crank thrust measured good and is on the tight side, I looked as well to see if anything could hit and even had two sets of bearings in it.
Paulie, your summary is correct. Idles quiet, wing the throttle quiet, back out of the garage, accelerate away, almost sounds like a Chebby with a loose rocker, very loud cold, and can almost sound squeaky at first, as it warms up, truck doesn't get too warm, only has a 160 degree thermostat, but it gets much quieter. Almost to the point that you can ignore it, but it's still there during acceleration. I had thought stuck or dry wrist pin, but I had them all out this time when I checked all the pins and small ends and nothing goofy. Exhaust is pretty quiet in the cab, not sure how I could make it much quieter. I hear the noise, I can point to it as potentially right rear of the engine while driving, but can't duplicate it under the hood and can't find anything loose or worn and as much as I am a brave man, I cannot sit in the engine compartment and drive around ;D I even had a Bluetooth listening device with 8 channels clipped all over the engine under the hood and all that did was alert me to how freaking noisy a solid lifter engine was when magnified by a bunch of electronic sensors! LOL
A stumper for sure. I will try pulling a plug wire at a time and see if it goes away. It seems to be on the passenger side, so it won't take too many tries LOL
Hell even if I could only isolate a hole, that would be the biggest gain in this whole endeavor so far
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I once had a rocker arm adjuster jut barely hitting the sheet metal baffle under my Mercury Pentroof valve covers. I have Harland Sharp rocker arms with Dove stands and end stands. I had rounded off the hex wrench hole on some of my rocker arm adjusters and bought some new Harland Sharp adjusters. The new adjusters are better. They have a larger hex wrench hole in the top, AND they're longer. Long enough that by chance, when I installed one of the new adjusters, it was under the baffle in my valve cover, and it hit, when the old adjusters did not. It smashed up the baffle and made some noise. I ended up just swapping it with the adjuster on another rocker arm that was the old, short, style.
I'm reaching. But who knows?
paulie
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Multiple rockers and valve covers to include stock rockers with a 270H at the beginning. Currently no baffle chrome Pentroods on it Confident it isn't that, but keep them coming
I was really leaning that way for a while, even had Brent put an eye on all the retainers and springs and had the heads magnafluxed reaching for a broken valve guide boss or seat bouncing around. Nothing....
This weekend, I am going to try pulling a plug wire and driving to see what changes, feeling better that it is piston related, but not good enough yet to tear it down again
In fact, unless I somehow magically find something definitive, it is likely going to get a stout little 396 for a while, I need a break :)
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You know that old Sherlock quote..."when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" :)
I still wouldn't discount the idea that it may not even be engine related, but it's hard to say since I cant hear it. I just know I've been fooled more than once that way.
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This weekend, I am going to try pulling a plug wire and driving to see what changes, feeling better that it is piston related, but not good enough yet to tear it down again
Good decision ,just be shore the spark, if it is a MSD ignition, has som way to get out of the system
ore you an get nasty sparking going on inside the MSD box and ruin it, i know dun that when they was new on the market here in the 80is :(.
My first impression was a piston/combustion related noise, how is your sparkplug wiring, are they nicely separated or in bundles.
Back in the 60is i think it was, there was a memo from FOMOCO how to cross nr: 7and8 plug wire ( even nicely separated in holders) to eliminate induction premature firing the nr:8 cylinder Especially 7and 8 plug wire shroud not run along side each other with out crossing twice.
and how you should arrange plug wires ( 7,8 ) at the dist- cap .the longer distance and the closer they are along side, the greater the induction spark. Think good people here has most possibility's covered
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Let me start by saying that I can't hear it - maybe you should stop by Mack and give me a ride. ;) I do have a quick and easy guess at it though. How about the speedo cable? It should be easy enough to take it loose down below and go around the block. Later, Travis.
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It's clearly an engine noise, hard to hear in the video, but it's clear as day in the truck. Especially cold
I was going to troubleshoot today, but decided to take the Mustang out and having too much fun :)
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Let me start by saying that I can't hear it - maybe you should stop by Mack and give me a ride. ;) I do have a quick and easy guess at it though. How about the speedo cable? It should be easy enough to take it loose down below and go around the block. Later, Travis.
I should have you put an ear on it, at least there would be someone else who heard it.
Maybe one of these days I will swing by if pulling a wire doesn't ID a noisy hole.
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My 445 has a noise, and has had a noise for a long time. It won't blow up, it's been apart twice since the original build for the noise, and I have found nothing. The only thing I haven't done is Zyglo the pistons. Heads magged, multiple cams, multiple rocker sets, multiple valve covers, clearanced the timing chain, multiple fuel pumps, nothing hitting down below, with or without PS, even reblocked to have tighter clearances because I originally built it loose, new balancer, clutch, flywheel, you name it.
In the video below starting at 25 seconds, you hear a tapping that sounds like a loose valve, it's much worse when cold. After all of this, my hunch is I have a bad piston, but I did not see anything on multiple inspections and it is silent at idle.
First request, listed to the video until you hear the minor tapping between 25 and 30 second point. Many people say they can't hear it, and it is tough, but once you tune into it, it sounds like valvetrain, although everything has been gone through multiple times.
After you hear it, generate ideas. FWIW, I have been in pure parts replacement mode for over a year, the absolute only engine I have ever been in this situation. The only things not magged or replaced are the pistons and rods, but my eyeball couldn't see or measure anything. The crank was magged and checked. All new parts,and it has made the noise since the original build without change
Thoughts, prayers? :o Been doing this a long time and haven't ever ran into one like this.
About ready to put the spare 390, or maybe buy an LS off Craigslist LOL
https://youtu.be/VlHIl9hafYA
Ross, it sounds like a collapsed piston skirt to me. I suggest a process of elimination to narrow the diagnosis down to the offending cylinder. Pulling a plug wire one at a time is a good way, as has been suggested.
A second possibility is that a piston crown is tagging the combustion chamber .
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Thanks everyone. Piston skirts all measured the same lat time I put it together, even marked crosshairs on every piston to make sure I measured exactly to make sure I didn't miss a thou due to being in a slightly different location, but I did not look more than an a good eyeball for cracks because of that and the bores showing no odd wear. Additionally, I have never pulled the rings off the piston, so it is possible I missed something.
I think Doug's on track with his Sherlock Holmes statement. I am not sure there is a more methodical person than me, and this is years in the troubleshooting. Block is square decked, precisely at .055 quench, D-cup pistons, nothing hitting above or below the piston.
It almost HAS to be a bad piston, the issue is, it doesn't really sound like it to me LOL it sounds like valvetrain, but the fact it gets quieter with engine temp (and the fact that every valve train component has been replaced, measured, or magged) leads me back toward a piston on the compression stroke.
I may jump on it today for a bit, at least to see if pulling a plug wire makes it quiet. Didn't realize how burned out I was on it, but driving the Mustang for a nice 100 mile trip, to include a coffee cruise was good therapy :)
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On the 428 in my ramp truck I had a weird buzzing and rapid tapping noise that drove me nuts for a month. It would do it part throttle around 2300 to 2600rpm. It wouldn't do it at that RPM unloaded or heavily throttle.
Turned out to be the long header tubes that ran side by side. A hose clamp solved it, but only after the engine came apart twice and nothing was wrong.
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If you find out that your speedometer cable is making this noise, I am personally going to drive up there and give you a wedgie.
sincerely,
paulie
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If you find out that your speedometer cable is making this noise, I am personally going to drive up there and give you a wedgie.
sincerely,
paulie
If it's a speodometer cable, it's wrapped around the crankshaft and hitting the pan :) I wish it was something so easy. However, where I am now, I will happily unscrew it and take it for a ride.
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If you find out that your speedometer cable is making this noise, I am personally going to drive up there and give you a wedgie.
sincerely,
paulie
If it's a speodometer cable, it's wrapped around the crankshaft and hitting the pan :) I wish it was something so easy. However, where I am now, I will happily unscrew it and take it for a ride.
I don't think it's your speedometer cable, either. Just giving you a hard time. :)
I would seriously be happy to ride in your engine bay with the hood off, if that would help. I trust you to not go over 100 with me in that position.
paulie
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i had my oil dipstick go to the wrong place onetime,it made a pecking noise till i straightened it up i thought i would mention this,you never know,it happened to me
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Have you tried a different viscosity oil? My 416 makes all kinds of piston noise with 15w40 Rotella. My home-boy hone job is the culprit here, I think. Seems to be getting worse with miles. I'm up to 2500mi now. But I can run 60wt VR1 and it quiets the noise a lot. Might be fun to experiment, Ross.
I also like TomP's rattly header tube hypothesis..... bundle em up with a big hose clamp and see what happens....
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I've listened to the audio and read this thread thru, thought I could hear it but?. At one point you documented that you verified no exhaust leaks, so this may be old ground and way over-simplifying but could there be a minute crack in a header tube or where they are welded to the flanges? As it heated up it would tend to close and quiet down. Also, a tiny flaw of this type would only manifest under load conditions.
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i had my oil dipstick go to the wrong place onetime,it made a pecking noise till i straightened it up i thought i would mention this,you never know,it happened to me
I have a pan mounted dip stick in a 4x4, absolutely a possibility in a car, but not possible in the pan mounted rear sump
Have you tried a different viscosity oil? My 416 makes all kinds of piston noise with 15w40 Rotella. My home-boy hone job is the culprit here, I think. Seems to be getting worse with miles. I'm up to 2500mi now. But I can run 60wt VR1 and it quiets the noise a lot. Might be fun to experiment, Ross.
I also like TomP's rattly header tube hypothesis..... bundle em up with a big hose clamp and see what happens....
So, the noise scares me enough that I don't want to drive it cold, and I have ran 15w40 and 20w50 and a few shelf blends during the times it's been together, so my hunch is the tap I hear is not oil related. Plus all the clearances are blueprinted like every other hot FE I build and been checked "thrice" with the build and reblock and rebuild LOL
As far as the header tube, I will look, but man, it really is a tapping that coincides with engine speed, but I will still look again at the possibility. FYI, there is nothing loose on the truck, I am a bit of a rattle/squeak crazyman.
I've listened to the audio and read this thread thru, thought I could hear it but?. At one point you documented that you verified no exhaust leaks, so this may be old ground and way over-simplifying but could there be a minute crack in a header tube or where they are welded to the flanges? As it heated up it would tend to close and quiet down. Also, a tiny flaw of this type would only manifest under load conditions.
So I have been all over the headers because it often seems logical as a possibility, but it just doesn't sound like that. That being said, this last time I bolted them to a head, no rockers, and pressurized them with air, a whole bunch of nothin with a Windex bottle. Additionally, they are ceramic coated headers that were quiet with the original 396. It all goes back to "new stroker kit came with a new noise"
I have to go out of town for a bit, but hopefully this weekend I can try pulling wires to see if the noise changes. If it does, I would have a head off and a piston out in under 30 minutes :)
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I just thru the speedo cable out there - I don't think we need to resort to wedgies. :) I've chased noises on trucks and found some crazy results. It can be a real PITA figuring out what a noise "looks" like. Did you remove pistons from rods and check rod bushings? I sure hope pulling plug wires narrows it down. Later, Travis.
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I had a serious intermittent knock in my Mach 1 once. Turned out that one of the header tubes was tapping against the front subframe at certain times. I assume you've ruled out something like that...
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you could also add that at different rpms your engine will move around more or shake more or less
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After years of chasing it is almost worth it to pull the thing and stick it on a dyno so you can stand next to it and put your head against the valve covers or oil pan. I've had some really crazy stuff make noises - windage trays and the flat tin under an intake will amplify the smallest contact and make it sound horrific. I've had rockers touch an otherwise well clearanced valve cover in one spot, I've had one rod bolt touch a tray, I've had a single broken inner valve spring, I've had the dipstick wrap up, I've had a fuel pump with a broken return spring, I've had a roller lifter tie bar hitting the block, I've had worn rockers clip on a valve tip - - seems like I've found every one of them only after eliminating a million other items....
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After years of chasing it is almost worth it to pull the thing and stick it on a dyno so you can stand next to it and put your head against the valve covers or oil pan. I've had some really crazy stuff make noises - windage trays and the flat tin under an intake will amplify the smallest contact and make it sound horrific. I've had rockers touch an otherwise well clearanced valve cover in one spot, I've had one rod bolt touch a tray, I've had a single broken inner valve spring, I've had the dipstick wrap up, I've had a fuel pump with a broken return spring, I've had a roller lifter tie bar hitting the block, I've had worn rockers clip on a valve tip - - seems like I've found every one of them only after eliminating a million other items....
Had a knock in an truck and finally figured out the passenger side rear view mirror was loose... Would have sworn it was a piston skirt or wrist pin.
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I will let you guys know. So far everything thought of has been checked, magged or changed. I am putting together a little long-rod 396, I am going to swing that in for the summer after I do the plug wire check, although I have never done that method other than idle, at this point it could ID a piston noisy under load.
Might have missed it, but yes, pins were all mic'd, small end measured, pistons visually inspected.
I never say never, but I am sure it is in the engine, there is nothing loose on the truck and it follows tach, is repeatable and it's had so many configurations of parts it has to be in the long block itself. I am really leaning toward a cracked piston, but heck, you'd think I'd have seen something in three separate assemblies..
Sorry to have let this run so long without more info, but out of town for a few days, I will update Sunday or Monday
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I hope you find it. I imagine it'll be a relief to know, regardless of what it is or how serious it is.
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I hope you find it. I imagine it'll be a relief to know, regardless of what it is or how serious it is.
Thanks Paulie, honestly I couldn't care less if it was serious. LOL In fact, I couldn't imagine a part in the engine I wouldn't happily replace and hang the broken one on the wall or happily spiral into the trash.. Now it's my Moby Dick. :)
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I hope you find it. I imagine it'll be a relief to know, regardless of what it is or how serious it is.
Thanks Paulie, honestly I couldn't care less if it was serious. LOL In fact, I couldn't imagine a part in the engine I wouldn't happily replace and hang the broken one on the wall or happily spiral into the trash.. Now it's my Moby Dick. :)
I forgot what your rank is, but it'd be cool to call you Captain Ahab. :)
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Sometimes it's what we least expect....
Dad bought a new Harley and I had Lunati grind him a custom cam for it. He installed the cam, along with new adjustable pushrods, lifters, rocker arms, etc. Got it all buttoned up and it wouldn't start. Acted like it had zero compression. He thought he had bent a valve, so he brought the heads to me and we checked everything out....it was all fine.
He takes it apart and puts it back together at least 2-3 more times.
He finally got it to start with the rocker covers off. Pleased with it finally running, he goes to bolt the rocker covers on and notices one slightly teetering on the rocker arm.
The new rocker arms hit the rocker covers in a way that when he bolted the covers down tight, it would open a valve about .020". A quick adjustment with a die grinder and it was purring like a kitten.
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Which brings to mind if you looked for any witness marks under the valve covers? Perhaps a baffle or something? I've lost track of everything you've done, so maybe that was already covered, but I've had to remove the baffles out of my CJ covers in my Mach and the baffles out of the ones in the truck. It doesn't take much at all and you may not even be able to see it much.
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Brent and Doug beat me to this one. My dad is resurrecting my old 390. He had to peel the baffles out of some "Power by Ford" valve covers to clear Harland-Sharp rockers.
I drug out my head phones and spent 10min listening to your video, Ross. Could it be possible that your shop missed when the crank was inspected/magnafluxed?
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checked the rods for straightnes?
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So a little bit of an update, but not much substance
Fired the truck cold after sitting a few weeks. Made the noise pretty loudly, as it always does, the movie I originally posted was warm, so I pulled one plug at a time and didn't get any definitive answer, but #7 "may" have gotten a little quieter when it wasn't firing. It certainly was the one I went back to a second time but it didn't go away completely like I had hoped.
Took it for a 10 mile drive and as it warmed up, it got significantly quieter, but not gone. At this point, by deduction, not proof, I almost have to blame something with a single piston. I'll get the 396 together, swap it out and dig in the 445 again, got some plans to make this a little 445 a little more bad ass, despite it being already too fast for the 4x4 steering, 4 wheel brakes and big old tires already 8)
The pistons in the 445 are forged 2618 Probes, but spot-on for clearances, so I doubt its a material issue. I am hoping it's something behind a ring that i didn't see or ??? Who knows, but I will likely replace with pistons with 4302 Diamonds or Racetechs with a metric ring pack.
We'll see though, time to get the little 396 together after I finish a run to the Pentagon. That one should be fun, Streetmaster with all mods, iron heads with CJ valves and some port work, Diamonds with metric rings, zero deck, 6.54 rods prepped nice, 3.78 crank, true 10:1 compression, 280/284 230/236 @ .050 110 LSA on 106. Might even run a 600 Holley on it because I have one. Just a clean little 396 to get my heart pure again after this 445 LOL
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Hell I'm just glad you have a new and bitchin sig picture. ;D
Funny you're gonna tear it down. I've had a niggly little problem that I'm going to rip mine out again for. Might even lose the dreaded Performer.
Hope you find yours.
Hmm cooler louder, warmer quieter. A hundred things.
Good luck
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LOL, no kidding huh? This truck would have EFI, a/c, power windows, and at least front disks by now, but I keep buying gasket sets!
BTW, here is a movie. Nobody really heard it last time, but had the wife help today.
Listen at 26 to 28 seconds, if you don't hear it, back up to 24 seconds and listen when I get moving. To set the stage I am backing out of the garage and move forward at 25 seconds or so.
Then, at 50 seconds, I get into the noise, get out, and in again. Sounds like a bent pushrod, broken rocker....sorta
At the end, ignore a little grind, mama rested her had on the transfer case lever when I accelerated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSd_lMyFNM
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Maybe the audio is lying to me, but I don't hear any bad engine juju in that video. I hear a sound like wind blowing through trees (or a whoosh like am radio static) at those points in the video you indicate.
If that's the real sound, it could be your clutch throwout bearing. That might explain why it lessens when the driveline warms up...
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I hope you find it. I imagine it'll be a relief to know, regardless of what it is or how serious it is.
Thanks Paulie, honestly I couldn't care less if it was serious. LOL In fact, I couldn't imagine a part in the engine I wouldn't happily replace and hang the broken one on the wall or happily spiral into the trash.. Now it's my Moby Dick. :)
I forgot what your rank is, but it'd be cool to call you Captain Ahab. :)
Let's not demote him! He was up for O-5 last I heard, and that is worth at least two Captains! On the noise, I had a CJ from the factory that had rod inserts that looked like they were beaten in with a ballpeen hammer. Warrantied at less than 3000 miles, and the reason for the warranty was a noise off idle and with no load that only I seemed to be able to hear at the time. The service manager did think he heard something, so they took a look. Long story short was I got a rebuild and the car was super quick afterwards and no noise. Joe-JDC
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Thanks Paulie, honestly I couldn't care less if it was serious. LOL In fact, I couldn't imagine a part in the engine I wouldn't happily replace and hang the broken one on the wall or happily spiral into the trash.. Now it's my Moby Dick. :)
I forgot what your rank is, but it'd be cool to call you Captain Ahab. :)
Let's not demote him! He was up for O-5 last I heard, and that is worth at least two Captains! On the noise, I had a CJ from the factory that had rod inserts that looked like they were beaten in with a ballpeen hammer. Warrantied at less than 3000 miles, and the reason for the warranty was a noise off idle and with no load that only I seemed to be able to hear at the time. The service manager did think he heard something, so they took a look. Long story short was I got a rebuild and the car was super quick afterwards and no noise. Joe-JDC
Lieutenant Colonel Ahab just doesn't have the same ring to it, Joe. Ross will always be Captain Ahab to me, no matter his real rank. :)
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Let's not demote him! He was up for O-5 last I heard, and that is worth at least two Captains! On the noise, I had a CJ from the factory that had rod inserts that looked like they were beaten in with a ballpeen hammer. Warrantied at less than 3000 miles, and the reason for the warranty was a noise off idle and with no load that only I seemed to be able to hear at the time. The service manager did think he heard something, so they took a look. Long story short was I got a rebuild and the car was super quick afterwards and no noise. Joe-JDC
Thanks Joe, I'll keep looking. BTW, the USAF must have been desperate because they put eagles on my shoulders in September. The good guys must have all got out at 20 :) I am at 22 years this year and have at least 3 more in me, then I have to figure out what to do when I grow up
[/quote]Maybe the audio is lying to me, but I don't hear any bad engine juju in that video. I hear a sound like wind blowing through trees (or a whoosh like am radio static) at those points in the video you indicate.
If that's the real sound, it could be your clutch throwout bearing. That might explain why it lessens when the driveline warms up...
There is something bad in there, I just haven't tuned you guys in yet. In fact, before it warms up, I am embarrassed to drive by someone in their driveway. Luckily there are no car guys in my neighborhood
Get to 48 seconds in. From that 48 second point, you will hear me shift and as I accelerate, I lightly jockey the throttle to start and stop the tapping noise... I shift then I come off and on the throttle, it's when I am lightly "on" that makes the whacking noise sort of like a SBC with a rocker stud pulled out.. . The exhaust booms a little, try to listen past that, and as you noted there is no bearing noise, exhaust leak noise, or anything other that the "tap/rattle" in the background
Then again at 1:15, when I get into high gear, but as soon as the exhaust booms, it's there but not loud enough in the movie to ID and then you will hear when she leans on the transfer case shifter.
It isn't whatever you are hearing though, and absolutely absolutely no correlation with the clutch other that I need the clutch to take off :)
RJP pointed me to the plug wires, potentially cross firing 7 and 8. I will check again, but over the ...2 years...I have chased this noise, I have had the wires all over, but I am going to run them so far apart that it is impossible and see, because if it helps you steer yourself to the noise, the PHYSICAL effect of 8 firing early could explain something similar, but honestly it's just too repetitive and mechanical to me. It'd almost have to be a crossed wire to be this steady
Last thing, it has to be a huge clue that it gets significantly quieter with engine temp. Lash of course can change, but I have had every combination of cams, rockers, pushrods, valve covers, in multiple configurations both hyd and solid, and the noise persists. Every moving "whackable" part has been swapped (fuel pump, eccentric, rockers, etc...even reblocked based on building it loose and thinking the heat could be piston slap)
What remains is a set of pistons that I have visually inspected, measured skirts all in specs and exactly the same as each other, measured pins and pin bores inspected from the bottom, but have never pulled the rings or Zyglo'd and the noise continues in the same behavior it has since the intial build I hate to pull it down a third time and REALLY hate deduction versus discovery, but I cannot think of anything else that would make a rhythmic beat under light load
I would love to say no noise, but it's there and if I delivered this engine to you, you'd bring it back.
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Thanks Paulie, honestly I couldn't care less if it was serious. LOL In fact, I couldn't imagine a part in the engine I wouldn't happily replace and hang the broken one on the wall or happily spiral into the trash.. Now it's my Moby Dick. :)
I forgot what your rank is, but it'd be cool to call you Captain Ahab. :)
Let's not demote him! He was up for O-5 last I heard, and that is worth at least two Captains! On the noise, I had a CJ from the factory that had rod inserts that looked like they were beaten in with a ballpeen hammer. Warrantied at less than 3000 miles, and the reason for the warranty was a noise off idle and with no load that only I seemed to be able to hear at the time. The service manager did think he heard something, so they took a look. Long story short was I got a rebuild and the car was super quick afterwards and no noise. Joe-JDC
Lieutenant Colonel Ahab just doesn't have the same ring to it, Joe. Ross will always be Captain Ahab to me, no matter his real rank. :)
Colonel Ahab, but, FWIW, that's the same as a Captain in the Navy, so it's not far off :)
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Congratulations! O-6 is quite an achievement, and you never know about who is watching for 0-7 behind the scenes. Anyway, going out on a limb, and saying that if the noise returned on a second engine, then it is not the engine, but an accessory. Have you checked the damper, pulleys, belts adjustment rods, bolt heads, flywheel, transmission bell housing, starter to headers, headers to bell housing, headers inside where the four tubes are welded into group of four? I had that one that drove my mad trying to find. Header flange to crossmember/floor board, engine mount bolts, and lastly transmission tunnel to linkages, throttle linkage bellcrank? The exhaust grows with heat, and changes dimensionally and that would be something to look at the hangars and attachment points all the way to the back. You know this, but just trying to come up with a new idea. Joe-JDC
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Congratulations! O-6 is quite an achievement, and you never know about who is watching for 0-7 behind the scenes. Anyway, going out on a limb, and saying that if the noise returned on a second engine, then it is not the engine, but an accessory. Have you checked the damper, pulleys, belts adjustment rods, bolt heads, flywheel, transmission bell housing, starter to headers, headers to bell housing, headers inside where the four tubes are welded into group of four? I had that one that drove my mad trying to find. Header flange to crossmember/floor board, engine mount bolts, and lastly transmission tunnel to linkages, throttle linkage bellcrank? The exhaust grows with heat, and changes dimensionally and that would be something to look at the hangars and attachment points all the way to the back. You know this, but just trying to come up with a new idea. Joe-JDC
Joe I appreciate it, and at some point, you should tell me "Well it has to be something or it is your imagination" LOL
The noise didn't appear on a second engine , it appeared when I built the stroker and has continued with every version. The 390 was quiet, and whatever the noise is, is absolutely in the stroker. The new 396 is going together as a fun motor I was doing in my spare time, but instead of being for resale, it'll go in the F100 to keep it mobile and prove to me it's inside the 445.
Just to recap
1 - silent beautiful iron head hyd cam 396, very very low compression and not much power LOL
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- pulled it out to build a hyd cam 445. Had this noise immediately
- swapped rockers, cam, pushrods, rockers again, pushrods again, all thinking it was valve train. At this time went hyd to solid
- standard troubleshooting the entire time
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- Pulled engine a second time, knew it was built loose, so swapped blocks to get tight bore with the 2618 pistons, inspected everything, replaced a ton of stuff, no smoking gun (though it was at nearly .007 clearance, so I felt good it was piston slap)
- Tried two sets of rockers (Erson and brand new HS on brand new shafts)
- Noise absolutely unchanged
- Replaced a ton of stuff externally
4 - Pulled engine again
- Went through with a fine tooth comb (except for pulling the rings off the pistons)
- Mag'd heads to see if guide was broken, checked all springs, mag'd crank, measured all pins and small ends, replaced flywheel after seeing cracks that were just heat checking, but wanted a steel wheel, replaced clutch after finding odd click in springs in disk and Ram said it wasn't enough for my power, replaced balancer, fuel pump, timing set, eccentric, verified all thrust settings again.
- Absolutely no change at all in noise. No worse, no better
Earlier I mentioned that I was in parts replacement mode out of frustration. I have not only checked everything on your list, I have also replaced everything on your list with new and improved parts whenever I found something even had the potential to be not perfect. I am not that kind of mechanic and never have been, but at this point I haven't found anything.
The headers have not been replaced, but I checked them repeatedly very closely, and they were quiet on the 390, and the noise started at first fire up of the 445, now years ago.
I keep going back to a crack in a piston at a pin boss that I missed, or something in a ring land I didn't see because I didn't pull the rings. It doesn't seem logical to me, but after all the rockers, cams, and even the magg'd heads to check guide movement, I cannot think of anything else that would be rhythmic under light load
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I can hear the noise slightly reminds me of a customer years ago with a stock GTA. He never complained about the noise he knew nothing about cars except where to put the gas in. He sold that car after another 30,000 miles of driving who knows how many with the new owner. But when your saying you make the noise come and go under light throttle is it possible the chain might have a little sloppigg, or hitting something, I know it was said but fuel pump under light acceleration you can't hear those noises just by giving it gas in the driveway. Shit hung over many a fender and engine while my partner drove to find a noise that we just couldn't find, I think it was Plovert that said he would hang over fender and listen if you were nearby I would too. This way you can narrow down the area.
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Sounds like a baffle broken loose in the muffler.
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i had the wrong header gaskets on mine a while back and it leaked out the bottom of the header gaskets because they were the wrong pattern and they had a tiny gap letting exhaust out.i found it when i looked at the crush on my gaskets.
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I can hear it look for a crack in the header tubes they are louder when cold.
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I once dissasembled an engine, I can't remember even what kind it was, just another routine overhaul.
It could have been a Harley. Upon inspection I found a crack in a piston under the oil ring, it went about half way around the piston and was burnished or polished on the mating surfaces of the crack where it had been tapping away for god knows how long.
It was just a fluke that I even noticed it, but I recall thinking "Hmmm, How long has this been like that? I wonder if anyone ever heard it, and how much longer it would have hung on?
(Valve train noises are typically at half cranshaft related noises, I wonder about hooking up a knock sensor to a tach?)
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Thanks everyone, it's absolutely not exhaust, but I can see why it would sound like that.
It seems to be 1/2 speed, but a piston could be that too as the power stroke can be noisy. The crack in a ring land, or just something I didn't see is where I am leaning. However, to be honest, I may give it one more college try with a spring swap for laughs. I have never liked how the damper fit around the guide boss, although it sure didn't look or feel like an issue, and I have a second set of springs from a different manufacturer kicking around, so the couple hours to swap springs is worth the effort.
The knock sensor idea is interesting, if I could log it and identify that noise. I have had it wired up with blue tooth microphones and that didn't tell me much, too many normal noises with solid lifters for those sensitive microphones
I won't get back to it until next weekend at the earliest, work stuff taking over, but I am still expecting a piston issue