FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fryedaddy on April 21, 2018, 09:12:50 PM
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i bought a set of hs rockers and installed them on my running 428.i have a set of bbm heads on it.i wish the hs rocker arm kit came with rocker shaft bolts because i reused my stock rocker bolts and evidently they are too long because when i tightened them down they punched holes in the intake runners of the heads, and now im having trouble with oil dripping into the heads on top of the valves in the runners.i took the intake off and found the pieces of alu that punched out.i was surprised they were only as thick as a dime.while tightening the rocker bolts i could not feel the resistance of bottoming out because of spring pressure.so now i have a new set of bbms with holes in the intake ports below the rocker bolts.can they be repaired? like i said,the metal that punched out is no thicker than a dime.i tried sealing the rocker bolts but so far their still leaking oil into the runners because its burning oil and smoking a little. any advice is welcome.
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Use rocker studs instead of bolts, Clean the threaded hole with brake cleaner. Wrap the threads on the studs with teflon tape - yes tape. Screw the stud into the hole in the head and reassemble from there. It will work perfectly for a very long time. I used to cut through the oil bump on iron heads all the time and this worked quite well.
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X2 on using studs and sealing them. My CNC 6005's broke through. Have had no issue at all with just sealing the studs.
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where can i get studs for fe rockers? and do the studs torque the same as bolts?
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-6009/overview/
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Doug at precision oil pumps.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
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You will continue to have trouble with the ports with the oilers, and possibly the others. Unlike iron heads, you are dealing with inserts. Sealing the stud usually won't keep oil from getting past, behind the inserts. It will definitely squeeze through on the #3 and #6. That oil will go everywhere in the manifold, making it seem that all are leaking. Two ways to fix it are (1) weld up the holes in the ports, and (2) install a solid insert with a bottom in it, and seal the threads on the insert where it screws into the aluminum.
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You will continue to have trouble with the ports with the oilers, and possibly the others. Unlike iron heads, you are dealing with inserts. Sealing the stud usually won't keep oil from getting past, behind the inserts. It will definitely squeeze through on the #3 and #6. That oil will go everywhere in the manifold, making it seem that all are leaking. Two ways to fix it are (1) weld up the holes in the ports, and (2) install a solid insert with a bottom in it, and seal the threads on the insert where it screws into the aluminum.
that is what im afraid of.i guessed it was leaking by the inserts after 3 tries at sealing the bolts.looks like im going to have to take the heads to the machine shop for repairs. DAMN
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i pulled my spark plugs.no,3 was oily but no,6 was clean and pretty much all the plugs were clean except no,3 and no. 4 was a little black so i pulled the rockers off 1-4 put a little sealer around the top outside of the inserts and taped up the threads with pipe tape.knock on wood but so far it is not smoking.i will have to drive a hundred miles or so to see if its still using oil.im hoping its not too bad so i can drive it some this summer. i will take it apart this winter and get them repaired.that would be a good time to go ahead and have some port work done on the heads and intake.right now the heads and intake are out of the box stock. im still going to get some studs and see if it will work till repairs are done. thank you guys for the help and good luck with your builds!
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i would deff at-least try the studs, not going to hurt anything. is the hole the full size of the bolt or did it just push through a bit ? I put a good size ball of sealant on the end of my studs and let them dry over night then installed them and ran them down tight so its almost like a seal that the stud compresses down on. never had an issue but of course its not a street car.
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it punched out holes the same size as the studs,and like i said the punched out pieces are no thicker than a dime.i thought there would be more aluminium under the inserts than that,so anyone opening the ports up beware of the roof of the port.if you grind any medal off you will be getting close to the rocker bolt holes.i will def try the studs before i take it apart.i will need them anyway after the repair.there should be a warning on the instructions with the harland sharp rockers about using stock bolts.they sure can get you in trouble if your a dumb a like me.
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The intake studs for 351C - AFD heads penetrate the intake ports by design so this "problem" is nothing new, just have to seal the threads and go on.
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Bought a set of BBM's at the local swap meet cheap because of this problem. The guy gave up on them. I bought copper bolts the same threading as the rocker arm bolts (ebay) and had a guy at work fill in the holes. Note, I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned the ports because the oil screws with getting them welded back in correctly. Took a little torch and burnt the oil out of the holes, and then cleaned some more.
I wasn't happy just sealing the threads. The heads were going into the '67 Mustang, and I didn't want a redo. Figured I'd just do it once.
Right hand side is what they looked like. Took a ton of effort, but I thought it was worth it for a deal on some BBM's.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/njsz0ma17/IMG_1862.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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The Cleveland doesn't have an intersecting oil passage. The FE iron heads do and i've ground through the oil bump porting them and used sealer on a stud to solve that. The aluminum head with the thread insert could use sealer on the outside of the insert and the stud both. Or as Blair suggests, the blind insert like is used to block the Thermactor passage on the ends of 5.0L heads. Those are called TimeSerts I think, available in 3/8NC internal thread with a couple different external threads. Not sure if the BBM is 7/16" or 1/2"
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Just for comparison, just about every BB Chevy head made has at least two ports where the rocker stud hole goes all the way through into the port by design. Most have all four.
I just use Permatex thread sealer. It's a non issue.
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What i would do is chuck upp some round bar in the late
and make me some inserts looking like a ....top hat with
a thread on the outside and the inside and countersunk
for the flange in the head so the insert is flush with the head
locktite the insert in the head. If there is enough material
in the head. But thats me!
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are the rocker bolt holes on bbm heads shallower than stock cj heads.if so they should have a warning about using stock bolts.or is the stands on hs rockers smaller than stock adjustables. i know they were diff height stands on low riser vs high riser.looks like im not the only one to do this.it busted through very easy.just torquing them to 25 broke through.if i had the heads off and bolted the rockers on i would have noticed they were bottoming out but on a running engine in the car,the bottoming out is harder to detect because of spring pressure on them.
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Thats why i always test fit the parts on the bench and messure bolts
I have been burned by "bolt on" parts one time to many
Require only ordinare handtools and a few hours, NO welding required ;D ::) ::)
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What i would do is chuck upp some round bar in the late
and make me some inserts looking like a ....top hat with
a thread on the outside and the inside and countersunk
for the flange in the head so the insert is flush with the head
locktite the insert in the head. If there is enough material
in the head. But thats me!
I like to make inserts out of short bolts. You can pick the thread you want and make the flange from the head of the bolt. Still takes a little lathe work but easier than making the whole thing from scratch. ;)
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Well i guess a bolt is a round bar ;) In my case living
in Sweden unc/unf bolts is hard to get now and expensive
so some round stock is a better alternativ for me
And since i have worked some on British bikes with their threads
BSY, BSCY ,and whatever im used to make my own bolts and nuts
and to make them i have sometimes had to make my own taps and
dies ;D
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Doug at precision oil pumps.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
Is Doug still in business? I ordered a set of these studs, along with some rocker shaft end stands, a few weeks ago but the order status is "Awaiting Fulfillment." I've tried email and calling, but so far no response, and the voice mailbox is full. Anyone know an alternate email or phone number?
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Well i guess a bolt is a round bar ;) In my case living
in Sweden unc/unf bolts is hard to get now and expensive
so some round stock is a better alternativ for me
And since i have worked some on British bikes with their threads
BSY, BSCY ,and whatever im used to make my own bolts and nuts
and to make them i have sometimes had to make my own taps and
dies ;D
That's fun stuff! I had no idea you were in Sweden...I understand now.
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You should never use bolts in the rocker pedestals of any aluminum head. I snug the studs with a t-handle wrench. If you crank on the studs with a ratchet handle, they will poke through. The other style heads mentioned in this thread as examples...... Cleveland and BBC......neither have pressurized oil involved. That is a huge difference. The outer threads of the insert must be sealed, as well as the inside threads. That is why I mentioned an insert with a bottom in it, like Tom P's example of those smog plugs. I have fixed few heads by using an all-thread 5/8 fine thread B-7 material, and drilling and tapping the 3/8 inside it, with a sealed bottom.
It's a tough fix to have to pull the heads. Putting sealer in the top of the oiler hole can lead to plugging the oil to the whole shaft if silicone gets stuck in the stand. I hate that you have the problem.....just trying to give you sound advice. Your heads aren't totaled, but there is a near 100% chance that the oil will come past the insert on #3 and/or #6.
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thanks for the sound advice Blair.i didnt put any sealer in 3 or 6 because of the recess and the oil hole,but i did put a little around the top of the others. im going to buy some studs like recommended and install them,but i was really hoping to put off the tare down till later,if possible
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if i remove the intake i believe i will try screwing studs in and put some epoxy for alu under the studs to block the bottom of the holes.i have a drag race buddy that has some nascar heads that busted through like mine and he said it fixed his. he said not only the oil will get by the inserts with oil pressure, but also he said vacuum will suck oil past the inserts too
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I did this many years ago on a set of Edelbrock heads. Unfortunately, enough material had poor timing to find itself between the piston and head that the piston rocked and split #6 cyl wall.
I was living in New England at the time and brought them to a retired aerospace welder that was working out of his garage. Easily reachable from the intake side. TIG Welded up perfectly. Been like that for 12 years.
Find a GOOD welder and clean, clean, clean them first.
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i removed the intake last week. numbers 1,5, and 6 were leaking past the inserts.the other 5 cylinders were clean as a pin.i installed new studs and i used liquid aluminum to fill the bottoms of the holes and let it cure for 3 days.it turned out pretty smooth.if none of the plugs pop out it should stop the leak.if this fails i wont have any choice but to remove the heads and take them to a welder.my buddy that has been bracket racing since the 70s said he done a set of heads that way 12 years ago and they are still ok.i hope i have the same kind of luck with mine.
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Doug at precision oil pumps.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
Is Doug still in business? I ordered a set of these studs, along with some rocker shaft end stands, a few weeks ago but the order status is "Awaiting Fulfillment." I've tried email and calling, but so far no response, and the voice mailbox is full. Anyone know an alternate email or phone number?
Yes, he is still in business, and I'm surprised that you haven't heard back from him, his responsiveness is usually pretty good. I just got some parts from him within the last few weeks. He is a one man shop, so maybe he had some family issue, I'd keep trying.
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Doug at precision oil pumps.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ford-fe-390-428cj-427lr-rocker-stud-kit/
Is Doug still in business? I ordered a set of these studs, along with some rocker shaft end stands, a few weeks ago but the order status is "Awaiting Fulfillment." I've tried email and calling, but so far no response, and the voice mailbox is full. Anyone know an alternate email or phone number?
Yes, he is still in business, and I'm surprised that you haven't heard back from him, his responsiveness is usually pretty good. I just got some parts from him within the last few weeks. He is a one man shop, so maybe he had some family issue, I'd keep trying.
Doug got back to me and actually went so far as to overnight me the parts I needed to finish my build. He's just busy and didn't clear out his voice mail. All good now, thanks!