Author Topic: 4R100 trans trouble  (Read 16937 times)

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KMcCullah

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4R100 trans trouble
« on: September 17, 2012, 12:10:19 PM »
The transmission in my 99 powerstroke is messed up. I took some stuff to my wifes office yesterday and when I went to leave, reverse was gone. But I still had drive. So I pushed it out in street and drove off. Then I noticed that 3rd and 4th gears were gone too. It just won't shift or the gears are gone. Anyhow, when I bought this truck the tranny was a year old and I've only had it for 8 months so I don't think it's worn out. Fluid looks good and smells good. I'm trying to figure out if this is something I can fix without dropping the trans. Like the valve body is screwed up maybe? I've did alot of reading on other forums but nothing definite yet. Anyways..... Automatic trannys are my weakness. Any wisdom you guys could pass along would be greatly appreciated.
Kevin McCullah


e philpott

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 01:55:22 PM »
sounds like a direct clutch problem , could be a cracked piston , bad lip seal , hard to say .... the direct clutch is the only element common in reverse , third and fourth , trans will probably have to come out , you can try unplugging the electrical harness and see if you get reverse but I don't think you have a electrical system problem

KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 02:07:19 PM »
sounds like a direct clutch problem , could be a cracked piston , bad lip seal , hard to say .... the direct clutch is the only element common in reverse , third and fourth , trans will probably have to come out , you can try unplugging the electrical harness and see if you get reverse but I don't think you have a electrical system problem

Well that isn't the answer I was looking for! lol Since posting this morning I've found more info. It sounds like I may be pulling the damn thing.
Sigh.......my 445 mud motor will have to wait.  :(
Kevin McCullah


KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 09:46:26 AM »
I found the reciept for the rebuild in the glove box. I called the guy who built it. Petes transmissions in Phoenix. This tranny was rebuilt 12/20/10. It was done on the cheap per the customers request. The whole job was done for $1800. Which is about half of what a diesel rebuild should be. The parts were where the scrimping went on. It would have been a suitable rebuild for a gas motor but not a high torque diesel.
So I'm going to pull it and get the HD4R100 at the Ford dealer. There goes my 445 mud motor build.
Sigh.............

Kevin McCullah


KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2012, 02:33:28 PM »
ITS HEALED ITS HEALED!!!! And I don't know why. I spent alot of time looking. Checked all of the electrical connectors. Put the stock engine tune back withthe hypertec tuner etc. Nothing worked. Was home for lunch today and went out and fired it up and it fixed itself. I'm at a loss...... I'm suspecting the shift linkage may have something loose in the steering column.
Kevin McCullah


jayb

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2012, 03:14:18 PM »
Alright!  Get that mud motor built before it breaks again LOL!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2012, 07:30:38 PM »
 :) I'm back on it now.
Kevin McCullah


lovehamr

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 07:55:39 AM »
I love it when things fix themselves! ;D

Heo

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 12:11:56 PM »
Hmmm...Christine :o



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

lovehamr

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 05:34:25 PM »
Heo's got a point; has your truck told you to kill anyone yet?  :o

cammerfe

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 06:02:40 PM »
That's what we always called a 'wall' job. Park it over by the wall until it fixes itself!

KS

KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 08:00:43 PM »
Toatally bizzarr!!!!I spent the weekend pulling a trailer loaded with scrap metal. Approx. 8000lbs. Not one complaint from the damn thing. I'm still leery of it though, because of what the guy who built the tranny told me. I'm gonna install a spin on filter kit and change to syn oil. I've already installed a 40,000 BTU cooler. I figure I'll show it some love and maybe it will last.
Kevin McCullah


FirstEliminator

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 11:51:06 PM »
Been a while since I have visited the site. Sorry for the delayed reply.
     No reverse 3rd and 4th and it fixes itself? Weird.  Sounds like a sticky valve in the Direct clutch line up in the accumulator body. My head was getting dizzy looking at the hydraulic diagram for reverse---there's a lot going on. 3rd was easier to trace. The accumulator valves seemed to be a likely candidate in common with both reverse and 3rd/4th.
   Sonnax makes a bore sizing tool for the accumulator body. Tool #36948-12.  I use it on every rebuild. Had the problem of a sticky accumulator valve once that burnt a fresh rebuild in an ambulance.  Usually the accumulator bores are pretty out of shape. Lately, I have been holding the tool in the vise and holding the accumulator body in my hands. It's a lot easier grip than holding the tool in my hand or bothering with a slide hammer to pull the tool out. 
      If it was a budget rebuild on the trans, chances are the extra time to straiten out the accumulator valve bores wasn't taken. If you do buy the tool and pull the accumulator body, take a good look at the line pressure modulator valve. The sleeve wears pretty quick. If you see a polished look on one side of the inside of the sleeve, then the valve/sleeve needs to be replaced.  I usually go with the larger size valve Sonnax # 96948-01k. This valve measures .427. It will firm up the shifts a little bit over the smaller valves. There is also .500 valve, but Sonnax doesn't recommend this one for street use in diesels.
     Spin on filter and the cooler is a good idea.
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 08:43:28 PM »
Mark- It's been working ok since it fixed itself. It has quite a bit of slip between shifts if I'm on the go pedal hard. I've been considering going back to the firm shifts with my Hypertec tuner but I've read it's hard on the pump. Then I've read it's hard on the clutches to not firm up the shifts. What do you think?

Is the accumulator body your talking about, also called the valve body?  I've found several performance diesel valve bodies online. Do you have a favorite?
Kevin McCullah


FirstEliminator

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 11:42:39 PM »
    Well, all the programmer can do is up the line pressure via the EPC solenoid. This is a partial solution. The accumulator springs need to be stiffer and the seperator plate needs to be drilled to allow more volume faster to apply the clutches. Adding more clutches per pack will increase surface area contact increasing holding capacity. Kinda like tubbing a narrowing the rear to get some 18" slicks under there---more contact patch = better traction. To have a good performing transmission you need to bring up the level on all those aspects---a well matched combination.
   High pressure causes things to wear quicker. Not just the pump, anywhere else pressure is routed through, especially sealing rings.
   Low pressure and volume will allow clutches to slip when attempting to apply. It wears the clutches faster, creates heat and pretty soon the clutches will get glazed over and then burnt. Holding power of the clutch pack is compromised and eventually nonexsistant.
   They might be talking about the accumulator body. The valve body doesn't have much effect on the intensity of the shifts. The main valve body has more to do with sending the fluid to the correct places. The accumulator body is where the shift intensity is controlled. If you see a picture, the accumulator body is retangle. It is all the way up front right behind the filter tube.
    Personally, I have never purchased a high performance V-B or Accu-B from a performance vendor. Where I live there isn't much high performance stuff going on. We've built some H-D diesel stuff choosing induvidule pieces and drilling the seperator plate to what we have found appropriate to the application. Some of these trucks would get sideways on the 1-2 shift and have a nice 2-3 and 3-4.  There are shops that performance trans is their only focus and they maximise the holding capacity of the trans. But, not sure who to recommend.
    If you want to make some moderate inprovements it isn't really a tremendous job to pull the valve body, accumulator body, solenoid and seperator plate. Then you can better match volume and pressures. The bad parts is, with just about any shift kit off the shelf they are going to want you to make mods to the pump, which is only accessable when the trans is out. If you are attempting to make some control mods yourself, I can send ya some info on where to drill and what to use.
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 01:32:00 PM »
Thanks for the info Mark. Info from a guy in the biz is so good. Priceless really!
I'm going to follow your advice and leave the pump pressure alone. I would rather have a solid mechanical fix than a electronic one.
My bet is the same as yours, when the cheap rebuild was done, the VB and AccB were ignored. But it sounds like the bodies are sometimes what cause the the clutches to get burned to start with.
I'm going to start with replacing the AccB. The one I've found for a diesel comes with a diagram that shows where to drill the seperator plate and what size. $200 bucks and a few hours is a no brainer.
Kevin McCullah


FirstEliminator

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 05:19:05 PM »
  If you haven't ordered the new one yet, you could probably fix yours a little bit cheaper by buying the tool. But when all said and done, it probably wouldn't be much cheaper. Does this diesel accumulator body have the heavier duty line pressure modulator valve?

   Let me know if you have any questions in the process.
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

My427stang

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 07:26:16 PM »
This is the kit I used on mine

http://dieselinnovations.com/techfiles/sonnax.pdf

Change the piston, called a Sonnax valve here, and then tighter accumulator springs (3 of them, tricumulator according to this)

It made a great tranny shift incredibly, highly recommend it for the cost and 20 minutes to install.  In addition, I had converter lockup programmed to hit hard, so it felt like a solid shift.  So the added pressure to the clutches should have made it last much longer and the same with the lack of slip for the TC clutch

I traded the truck in a few years later, but it was an absolute sweetheart, even with 10K on the bumper through the rockies
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 09:11:56 PM »
Thanks for the info guys. Given the unknown history of this whole mess, it would probably be best to just get the complete rebuilt unit.
Check the link:http://www.dieselsite.com/factorytechvalvebody-theoriginalfordpowerstrokevalvebody.aspx
I guess I assume it would have the HD line pressure modulator valve. Will call and ask several questions before ordering.
Kevin McCullah


KMcCullah

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Re: 4R100 trans trouble
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2013, 10:01:47 PM »
Revisited... A few weeks ago my troubles came back. Same thing was happening. No reverse and no 2-3 upshift. Since last fall, I have watched many utube videos on the 4r100. I know enough to be really dangerous now.  ::)
So I pulled the pan, main valve body and modulating body. I was looking for the 2-3 valve to be stuck in the main VB. But all was ok. The mod body did have a stuck valve tho. This was not what I wanted to find. Everthing I had read and seen told me the mod body would not cause the problem I was having. I hauled my bodies down to a reputable local tranny guy for a show and tell. What he said was encouraging. Depending on the year of the seperator plate, a stuck valve in the mod body can cause my problems. So with this advice, I liked my odds again. I bought the Accutech mod body for the Powerstroke and put everything back together. Filled it with cheap oil. (just in case the whole thing needed to come out) And crossed my fingers. And how about that....IT WORKS! IT WORKS! What a different animal now also. The shifts are short and crisp. But not hammering, like when I was running the hot program from the Hypertech tuner.
So today, I took the banjo bolt out on the pressure side cooler line and tig welded the holes so oil won't bypass to the return side without circulating to the cooler first. (more utube wisdom) Also installed an external Balwin filter and shelled out for full synthetic oil.
Next with be a tranny temp guage. And a very light foot.......  ;D
Kevin McCullah