Author Topic: Oil additive (Read 8963 times)

JimNolan · « **on:** February 07, 2013, 12:19:28 AM »

Guy's,
I'll try to make this short and sweet. Edelbrock and Cam Research was emphatic that I use the zinc additive on startup and until the parts got used to one another because they said today's oils don't have zinc in it anymore. I've always used 10W40 Valvoline year round with oil and filter changes NEVER going over 3000 miles.
My question is : Do I need to keep using the zinc additive after the engine is broken in. Thanks guys, Jim

jayb · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2013, 08:40:34 AM »

I certainly would; why take chances? For what its worth I use Valvoline racing oil, which still has the zinc additive included in the formula.

ScotiaFE · « **Reply #2 on:** February 07, 2013, 09:08:13 AM »

This what I understand.
The oils off the shelf at the store ie: Canadian Tire

These oils have to meet very strict SAE and API standards for low emissions cars ie: New Cars.
The zink "ZDDP" has a bad reaction with the catalytic converter.
Now the API says that the new oils are backwards compatible, but the whole purpose of the ZDDP is to put a coating on
the metal. Now if you take away the level of ZDDP the coating level will be less also?
I think it's best to use a conventional oil with a ZDDP level in 1200 to 1500 ppm.
Single weight oils do not have to meet the new standards so that is an option.
The best you can do is stay informed of the mix of your oil.

fe66comet · « **Reply #3 on:** February 07, 2013, 10:23:36 AM »

That is why I am going with the Royal Purple 10-40 HPS synthetic oil. It resists moisture and buildup and corrosion and also reduces wear with the zinc / phosphorus coating. I an concerned about moisture due to burning E85 in my case.

JimNolan · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2013, 11:00:48 AM »

fe66comet,
I have flown airplanes most of my life. I've rebuilt aircraft engines and seen a lot of changes with the gas and oils for aircraft use. I'm no expert by any means though.
Mobil Oil came out with a all synthetic oil for gas, flat tappet aircraft engines a few decades ago. Everyone proclaimed fewer oil changes and better dirt suspension. Problem was a full synthetic oil doesn't cling to metal. Now, airplanes that flew almost every day had no problem, but airplanes that were flown maybe once or twice a month did. Seems when mosture was able to collect inside the engine ( cool down ) the metal parts (cams etc ) would form a spot of rust. Once formed, every time the part went around it acted like a piece of sand paper, got bigger and made a lot of metal shavings in the end. Mobil Oil paid for thousands of airplane engines to be rebuilt before it was over. That finacial disaster almost took a brand name off the market.
If a company like Mobil Oil with all it's educated scientists couldn't have predicted the problems with using a full synthetic oil, far be it from me to help them out with research on any kind of engine I own.
I know what you'd probably say. The research since those days are better, there's better oils today with millions of tested miles etc. I'll use semi-synthetic if I can't get regular oil. But, an organic oil of the right weight with frequent oil changes will do for me. I had a 66 Fairlane GT that I put 120,000 miles on and tore down because of bad rings. The crank was standard and looked like new. I'd changed oil every 2-3000 miles. Jim

fe66comet · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2013, 12:48:37 PM »

I was leaning toward synthetic oil due to I have great success with it my other engines. I tore down my moto cross bikes once a season and found wear parts and Nick cell coating lasted three times longer. I also used it in my four stroke drag bikes and only broke down the engine when needed, sometimes being three seasons along with regular street riding. Also no visible wear, as far as moisture absorption I immediately could tell a difference on some of the equipment I use on the farm here, no more milkshake in the drain oil or buildup in valve covers. All that equipment gets a change before winter storage which is an extremely damp time due to condensation. You might say I sold myself on the synthetic because I haven't found anything better..... Jon

hercamer · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2013, 04:38:28 PM »

On break in I have always used GM EOS along with brad Penn oil, after break in I run straight Brad Penn and have zero cam failures in all the years using it.

My Cam guy has recommended Brad Penn for many years and I trust his experience, he's been in the cam regrinding business more than 30+ years.

web page for brad Penn: http://www.penngrade1.com/

Kent

JimNolan · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »

Quote from: hercamer on February 07, 2013, 04:38:28 PM

My Cam guy has recommended Brad Penn for many years and I trust his experience, he's been in the cam regrinding business more than 30+ years.
Kent

Kent,
I compared the data sheets to Valvoline VR1 and Joe Gibbs multi Wt. applications and I can see why you would like it. And, price is better than most. Its a semi-synthetic with more zinc and phosperous than anything else I found and it's cold weather starting viscoscity is comparable with a fully-synthetic oil of the same wts. Thanks, Jim

My427stang · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2013, 10:49:17 PM »

I run Brad Penn in my Mustang, I really like it but its a little hard to find lately.

In the truck I run Valvoline or some early fleet oil I bought a ton of, some Castrol, some house brand from O'Reilly, but both were early formulations that were on sale before the CJ-4 diesel blend with less zinc

Recently Rislone came out with a zinc additive, I have a little in the truck right now for the fresh break in.

Any of those oils will work fine, just make sure its something with zinc, not something that is "supposed to be as good"

amdscooter · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2013, 12:31:32 PM »

I use a bottle of the Comp Cam engine break in oil and plan on adding a bottle with every oil change. It's $12 and cheap insurance against flattening a cam early due to missing oil components IMHO. My2c

fe66comet · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2013, 06:41:00 PM »

Considering most oils today are actually engineered for engines that run cooler, are made of low friction components and have very little oil contamination due to better rings and fuel injection. I would say for high performance, high pressure engines with flat tappets could definitely use any lube help they can get. I also use a fuel additive upper cylinder lube in my antique engines that have not been updated.

plovett · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2013, 09:57:56 AM »

Modern engines actually run hotter than our old engines, not colder. And modern oils don't have zddp completely removed from them. They do have substantially less zddp though. An old flat tappet motor does need more zddp, something like 1100-1500 ppm.

Brad Penn is good. Valvoline VR1 is good and fairly cheap at $5 a quart for the non-synthetic version. Shell Rotella is still good as far as I know, and cheap. Mobil 15W50 is good if you want a fairly cheap synthetic.

paulie

lovehamr · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2013, 11:36:30 AM »

Without getting into a BITOG type discussion on base oils and so forth, it certainly loks like the current M1 15w-50 will do fine in our motors. It's what I use in my FE and my Boss.

Mobil 1 - 15W-50

Nominal Phosphorus Level, PPM - 1200

Nominal Zinc Level, PPM - 1300

Recommended Consumer Applications - advanced full synthetic formula designed for performance vehicles, HT/HS applications, Racing and Flat tappet applications.

API, ILSAC, and Other Industry Approvals*** - SN/SM

ACEA Approvals - A3/B3-08, A3/B4-08, A3/B3-10

JimNolan · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2013, 12:31:03 PM »

Guys,
Maybe I'm the only one that has found out I was really lacking in understanding motor oils but if you get a chance go to bobtheoilguy.com and read his article on motor oils. If nothing else just read ( motor oil 101). He claims that 90% of the wear we get on our engines are at startup so having a viscosity that is lowest at startup, highest when hot and contains a high amount of Zinc and Phosperous to protect our moving parts is essential to our engines. The one thing I learned from his article is that the numbers we read on the front of the oil can doesn't say diddly about whats inside the can. Soooo, what I'm looking for is an oil that is #1 readily available where I live, #2 doesn't cost a fortune, #3 has low viscosity for startups, #4 has high viscosity at higher oil temps and #5 contains 1000 ppm + Zinc content. Jim

jayb · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2013, 01:07:36 PM »

That's part of the rationale behind accumulator systems like the Accusump. Those devices allow you to accumulate 1-3 quarts of oil in a reservoir that is pressurized by the oil pump. They have a valve that you can shut off while the engine is running, to keep pressurized oil inside the accumulator. Then, next time before you start your engine, you just open the valve. You will then have oil pressure when you crank the engine, eliminating wear on the engine components at startup.

For most of our applications, though, I wonder how useful this really is. Most of us aren't putting tons of miles on our engines, so wear at startup may not be an issue. I will rarely have an engine with more than 15K miles on it before I want to tear it down to do something else with it, and I just don't think that in an engine with such limited miles, startup wear is a big problem. At least I've never seen a bearing wear issue that could be tied to wear at startup on my engines. On the other hand, if you expect to put 60K-100K miles on the engine before it gets freshened up, an accumulator system probably makes sense.

fe66comet · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2013, 01:41:10 PM »

Do they have a system that automatically does that or would that be more like a prelube system?

Ahh I see never mind you install one of these in your ignition circuit.
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-24-270

JimNolan · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2013, 11:13:17 PM »

Guys,
Went with Brad Penn from Summit Racing. $20.00 cheaper for a case of 12 than what I can buy VR1 10W30 here in Warsaw. Plus, I get about the same viscosity at high/low temps with more ZDDP. Seemed silly not to order it and have it delivered to my house cheaper than I could buy oil here. Thanks guys, Jim

My427stang · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2013, 08:52:43 AM »

Its good stuff, I used to have a dealer here, worked out quite a bit cheaper, but they went out of business. Trying to figure out a way to get it again.

With 7 quarts in the truck and 9 in the Mustang, oil change day ain't cheap LOL

fe66comet · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2013, 09:32:28 AM »

It will be 162.85 to change my Comet with 14 quarts of HPS synthetic oil and two filters. I am adding a cooler, three quart accumulator and have an eight quart pan in the system. More than likely the oil will last for months that way.

My427stang · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2013, 09:51:21 AM »

It adds up, my Powerstroke is a 100 dollar bill and I do it myself!

Qikbbstang · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2013, 11:06:35 AM »

I find storing metal in Florida's high humidity that conventional oils poured on metal barely protect for a month, miracle stuff like Marvel Mys Oil don't protect metal at all and M1 Syn is like the Energizer Rabbit it keeps on protecting and protecting

JimNolan · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2013, 11:17:48 AM »

Quote from: Qikbbstang on February 17, 2013, 11:06:35 AM

I find storing metal in Florida's high humidity that conventional oils poured on metal barely protect for a month, miracle stuff like Marvel Mys Oil don't protect metal at all and M1 Syn is like the Energizer Rabbit it keeps on protecting and protecting

You know, I believe you guys. You wouldn't say it if you didn't really think or know it. There must be something different about synthetic oil now than there was when it first came out. Mobil Oil lost a hell of a lot of money on their synthetic oil because that wasn't the case. And it was proved at the time that synthetic oil wouldn't cling to metal like organic oil would. I'm not making this up. They took the oil off the market because of it. Jim

On October 25, 1995, a preliminary settlement agreement was reached in the federal class-action lawsuit filed against Mobil Corporation by Malvern Gross and Paul Jimison. As previously reported in AVweb, the plaintiffs claim that Mobil AV-1 synthetic oil may have caused substantial damage to a large number of big-bore Teledyne-Continental engines, and that all potentially affected engines should be inspected and, if necessary, repaired at Mobil's expense.
Meantime, Mobil is mailing out notices to approximately 50,000 owners of Continental engines, and has started accepting owner claims under the settlement. The terms of the settlement are rather involved and technical, but our short summary and analysis appears below. The full text of the court-approved settlement notice, repair and inspection protocol, and claim form are also available here, as well as the Plaintiff's press release announcing the settlement.. We suggest that all owners of AV-1 engines familiarize themselves with these documents immediately.

News:

Author Topic: Oil additive (Read 8963 times)

fe66comet

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plovett

fe66comet

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