questions about 428 block and 67 GT500 heads

[Wortttie]

Hello  i am hoping the expertise on the forum can help me out with a few questions.

I have a 428 block C6ME-A with a casting date of 7B23.  It has a hand scratched "A" and the extra  heavy main webs.

My block question: There is a 3/8" pipe plug threaded into the block skirt by the oil pan rail on the passenger side of the block.  This is a factory installation location as there is a boss in the casting to accommodate this plug.  I have not seen this before and I wanted to know what this is about.  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Pictures show the inside with the boss and the outside with the plug.

The second topic is using the this block assemble a 428 like that used in the 1967 Shelby GT 500.  Given the date code and casting number does this block qualify for this application?  Also, I have researched the heads for this and all articles and forums lead me to head casting C7AE-A.  Is this correct?  and I would assume that these heads had the smaller 2.05 intake x 1.54 exhaust.  Is that correct as well?

I have very interested in dialoging with those that are informed of the parts needed to assemble a 428 for the GT500 67 model.

Thank you for your attention to this email.   

[427John]

Those types of threaded holes were typically used for an oil return from an accessory that used engine oil for lubrication an example being an air compressor used on an FT engine.Since these engines were used in industrial applications and not necessarily in FT configuration it could be almost anything.While the A scratch and extra webbing can indicate PI use it by no means limits it to it,and while it may be the correct configuration block for use in a 67 shelby GT 500 it doesn't make it a shelby block any more than a set of C7AE heads with the 14 bolt exhaust pattern makes them a set of 67 shelby 428PI heads as so many of them are advertised as.If you have a 67 shelby gt500 that needs an engine, those parts would be the right ones to build one from.If you intend to build an engine and then try to sell it as a 67 Shelby GT500 engine,it would be unscrupulous at the least if not outright crooked.

[Wortttie]

Dear 427 John
Thank you for your response.  the information you have supplied is very helpful and I appreciate it. 

Unfortunately, based on you closing comments I must defend myself.  I have no intention of falsely advertising and attempting to sell this engine as one that originally came out of a 1967 Shelby GT500.  I am only attempting to duplicate this engine.  If I was to sell it, it would be represented as such, a duplicate.  I am neither unscrupulous or a crook. 

Again, thank you for responding and I do appreciate your knowledge. 

   

[cjshaker]

If you're going for a concours style restoration level, unfortunately that threaded hole knocks it out of contention. It would only have been threaded for an industrial or FT type installation, not any type of passenger car.

[Wortttie]

thank you CJshaker

That is a good point.  I am wanting to duplicate but not a concourse finish.  I just liked the idea of a factory dual quad type of 428.  And since the 1967 GT500 had the only dual quad 428 I wanted to duplicate it. That is why i wanted to know that the block and head numbers are the right type.   After completing the engine it will be ran to verify it being mechanically sound.  Then I will put it on a stand next to my other FE engine I have on display in my shop.  Pictures attached.  After completing the 428 I am going to build a tri-power 390 to complete my display. 

Thank you for your response.   

[turbohunter]

Wow, I’d love to have extra engines to display in my shop.
First I need a shop though.
I’m struggling a bit with using that block. You certainly can and only the knowledgeable will know. But if it’s for display, would you not want the correct piece? And then, if you have the correct piece, why wouldn’t you put that correct engine in the right car?
I’m just rolling it around in my head.
I applaud having display engines, and then again I want to use those bullets in a car.
Your post just brings up questions to me.

[cjshaker]

thank you CJshaker

That is a good point.  I am wanting to duplicate but not a concourse finish.  I just liked the idea of a factory dual quad type of 428.  And since the 1967 GT500 had the only dual quad 428 I wanted to duplicate it. That is why i wanted to know that the block and head numbers are the right type.   After completing the engine it will be ran to verify it being mechanically sound.  Then I will put it on a stand next to my other FE engine I have on display in my shop.  Pictures attached.  After completing the 428 I am going to build a tri-power 390 to complete my display. 

Thank you for your response.   

I think that's a pretty cool display, but you really should have them on an engine run stand. You need to be able to hear those things run!

I'll be doing something similar with a flathead and the 427 that I'll be taking out of my Mach. The flathead will get rebuilt with some vintage speed parts, and the 427 will get a refresh before placing both on home built run stands. All you need is a simple stand with a radiator mounted and some basic electric for ignition. And if someone can't figure out why, just tell them "because they're cool" 

[Wortttie]

Hello turbohunter and cjshaker.  You points are good.  None of my thinking makes any form of common sense.  In other words, I'm nuts!!.   I just love these old engines and have a ball building them.  Putting them into a car makes all the sense in the world.  But looking at them on a stand is fun when my friends come over.  The point that the 428 has this 3/8" pipe plug in it will be just a another topic of conversation. 

As far as putting the engines on run stands is a great idea.  They are not hard to build and I have one I use now for every engine I build.  I insist that the person I build their engine for allows me to run it in before they take it.  That way leaks, mechanical operation, and initial timing and cam breakin are done.  But building a few run stands will be easy and what a great way to show the engines and allow people to hear what these things sound like.  Thanks cjshaker for this idea.

[turbohunter]

In other words, I'm nuts!!.   I just love these old engines and have a ball building them.

I enjoy people that are nuts. Look at our hobby, makes no sense to work on and care about these old dinosaurs but here we are.
Good luck and I like Dougs idea about a run stand.

[427John]

Since it is not going to be a correct original Shelby GT500 unless its just going to be a non running display there's no reason why you can't deviate from the C7AE heads to use a better casting such as C6AE-R's or something similar for better performance.A lot of the small parts to finish out the engine are going to be tough to find,such as the C6AE numbered 427 style harmonic balancer and matching timing pointer,the pre 68 brackets and pulleys are getting way harder to find than they used to be.

[thatdarncat]

They make a reproduction of the correct ‘67 Shelby GT 500 timing pointer now. Here’s a screenshot from the NPD website.

[Wortttie]

thank you all for your assistance.  I have really learned a lot.   I am going to consider what 427john mentioned about the heads.  i have 2 sets of C4s, 1 set of C1s, 2 sets of C7s, 1 set of C1s, 1 set of EDC-As, a set of CJ heads C8s, and some others.  Dont ask me how a got all these I really can't remember.  But the options are good. 

Also, thank you to thatdarncat for the lead on the pointer.

After some review of some of the ancillary parts costs, such as distributor and carburetors I am rethinking my logic to produce a part number correct engine.  Just too much money.  So I will use some parts that are not correct.  I have a dual point distributor of new date and it looks like a set of 1860 holleys. 

 

[427John]

While the CJ heads would probably give the best performance,the other earlier head castings you mentioned fitted with CJ/LR size valves will be close enough that you will have trouble telling the difference especially the C4's,close enough that in this situation I would view the CJ heads as an asset to sell or trade for the other parts that you will need,that is unless you have another project that could make better use of them.When you get the engine finished is there any plan to put it on a dyno to check the output,if so post the results along with the build details.If you intend to sell the engine at a later date that is valuable information for a potential buyer.

[frnkeore]

If you are looking for max HP, out of that engine, you can send the C4 heads, to Blair Patrick, For his 2019, EMC porting and valves. That could net you, 630+ HP.

[Wortttie]

thanks for the reply's and advice.  I may dyno the engine as I push all the engines I build to be dyno'ed.  Besides the obvious information it also helps to determine the engine is sound and good mechanically.  I love dyno's.  The head options are interesting and I will need to do a review of which would be best for this project now that the costs associated with a parts correct 1967 GT 500 duplicate are just too high for a engine that will not be placed into a car at this time. 

When I finish the engine and if I do dyno run it I will post the results.  I don't expect big power.  Somewhere around 350 to 400. 

This project is going to go on hold as I just bought a 1957 T-bird for a really good price.  It needs the engine redone (312 4-bbl) and all the parts are there.  Hey if you guys know a "Y" block guy that doesn't mind some emails I would really appreciate that contact.   

[frnkeore]

For Y Blocks, there is non better than Geoff & John Mummert, in CA.

http://www.ford-y-block.com/

[fe-starliner]

For Y blocks.....alsohttps://www.eatonbalancing.com/category/y-block/