428 crank spacer

[happystang]

Hi everyone, I'm relatively new to the FE world, I usually dabble with Windsors. I'm building an S code '68 fastback with a 428, as the 390 blew up sometime in the 70's.

After a little research, I discovered that the 428 uses a spacer that slides over the crank snout. Which one do I need? I see some using the "hatchet" style crank spacer. My crank is marked 1U and the block has an "A" scratch (not a CJ or SCJ).

My spacer is unfortunately missing and I don't think they're reproduced. I do however see a few vendors on ebay selling billet ones. If I go this route, does anyone have a specific vendor or link to a good one?

I'm assuming that I might have to buy one used, is there anything specific condition wise that I should look for?

(FYI, I plan on repainting the block the dark corporate Ford blue, can't stand the lighter color)

IMG_6835.JPG by armon7, on Flickr

[jayb]

The hatchet style crank spacer was only used on 428 Super Cobra Jets, which were fitted with heavier LeMans connecting rods and needed the external counterbalance.  Any standard FE crank spacer should work for you, since you will probably internally balance the engine anyway.  Often you will see that the area where the seal rides on the crank spacer is grooved or torn up; you can get a sleeve for about $5 that presses on there and provides a new sealing surface.  Of the aftermarket crank spacers I've seen, some of the aluminum ones are hard anodized and the ones I've purchased  press onto the crank really hard; I've gone as far as cutting the anodizing off the internal bore of the crank spacer in a lathe to get them to fit properly.  They should slide on fairly easily, with only minimal "convincing" required.  IMO, best bet is to find a stocker in good shape, or else one that is torn up at the seal surface, and install the repair sleeve.

[happystang]

The hatchet style crank spacer was only used on 428 Super Cobra Jets, which were fitted with heavier LeMans connecting rods and needed the external counterbalance.  Any standard FE crank spacer should work for you, since you will probably internally balance the engine anyway.  Often you will see that the area where the seal rides on the crank spacer is grooved or torn up; you can get a sleeve for about $5 that presses on there and provides a new sealing surface.  Of the aftermarket crank spacers I've seen, some of the aluminum ones are hard anodized and the ones I've purchased  press onto the crank really hard; I've gone as far as cutting the anodizing off the internal bore of the crank spacer in a lathe to get them to fit properly.  They should slide on fairly easily, with only minimal "convincing" required.  IMO, best bet is to find a stocker in good shape, or else one that is torn up at the seal surface, and install the repair sleeve.

Jay, that opens up another question. I've been having some difficulty figuring out what rods I have. They are marked C6AE-C, which I *think* is for a Cobra Jet. Wouldn't that warrant the use of a hatchet style spacer?

[jayb]

You don't need the hatchet spacer in any case; internally balance the engine with Mallory metal and the hatchet spacer is not required.  Those are best left for someone doing a correct restoration on a 428 SCJ engine.

I'm not sure what rod that is; the SCJ rods I've seen have been marked C6AE-E.  Here's a link:

https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-connecting-rods

[My427stang]

Jay is giving you very good advice.  Don't just match parts on what you think they should be, have the engine internally balanced.  Then you don't need any rare parts

Provide them a 390 flywheel, your crank, your rods and pistons, balancer and spacer and let the machine shop balance THAT combo.  It will be far better than the original "detroit" balance of matching parts and much better than guessing at it.

It's not expensive and will pay for itself in durabilty and peace of mind.

Also keep in mind, only one crank was used with the Lemans (capscrew) rods, casting 1UA.  If you have a 1U or 1UB, it would have come with a standard spacer anyway

ON EDIT:  C6AE-6200-C 1966-68 428 CJ, 410, GT500 and GT500KR (except 428 SCJ)

Feel free to change "except 428 SCJ" to "they were used without a hatchet"

[turbohunter]

I just went through some bs regarding balancing a 1U crank.
Initially the machine shop told me it was about 200 grams out which would need either a 28 gram counter weight or 7 or 8 slugs of Mallory at 80-100 bucks each.
Ended up balancing with flywheel and not as much Mallory.
Have had a few problems with this shop lately which is unlike them.
Anyway my point is, research balancing your 1U well with your shop before proceeding. They are not like a garden variety (normal aftermarket) crank.

[My427stang]

I just went through some bs regarding balancing a 1U crank.
Initially the machine shop told me it was about 200 grams out which would need either a 28 gram counter weight or 7 or 8 slugs of Mallory at 80-100 bucks each.
Ended up balancing with flywheel and Mallory.
Have had a few problems with this shop lately which is unlike them.
Anyway my point is, research balancing your 1U well with your shop before proceeding. They are not like a garden variety (normal aftermarket) crank.

Wow Marc, was something unique with the combo?

[turbohunter]

Far as I know it was just a regular 1U.

I’d be interested if any of our esteemed builders have run into that though.

[Barry_R]

Seems like a lot of mallory for a basic 1U...

The steel replacement spacers from Blue Thunder work great although they are a little speedy.  The aluminum ones seem to tight to me as well, but I do not prefer aluminum in that location anyways.  The cheaper aftermarket steel ones will function but the surface finish is not as nice.  You can use the original one over again by just turning down the diameter of the "big side" on a lathe & installing it backwards.  I don't care much for the sleeves because they don't really go on deep enough and can have the seal running right on the edge of the sleeve - we end up putting an undercut on the leading diameter to push the repair sleeve back further and that sort of defeats the idea of a "quick repair".

[cammerfe]

The only time I've ever had to use a sleeve, between fifteen and twenty years ago, it cost somewhat more than $5---I don't remember exactly---it was made of stainless steel, came with a plastic sleeve-driver, and had a rolled-up lip for the driver to push against. It was perforated just back from the lip. When it went home the driver broke the lip off and you simply pulled it off from the back end. The sleeve-edge was more than a quarter-inch behind the seal edge so there was no possibility of interference with the seal. The stainless was very hard---and very thin. I believe that's a better solution than any of the other possibilities, and it was the ONLY solution available when I did it. No one had either a new or used one at the time.

KS

[KMcCullah]

Far as I know it was just a regular 1U.

I’d be interested if any of our esteemed builders have run into that though.

Thread highjack in progress... But maybe useful to the OP.

Seems like your machine shop is trying to get into your shorts, Marc. Sheesh!

When I built my 416 I used a 390 flywheel with this counter weight bolted to it:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-563333

It took a little weight added to an existing hole in one of the cheeks to make it balance. Easy peasy balance job. That was with an 1UB crank though.... I've always suspected 1U was balanced for 410 internals. And 1UB for 428 internals. The only 410 I've torn down had a 1U crank.

[happystang]

I just went through some bs regarding balancing a 1U crank.
Initially the machine shop told me it was about 200 grams out which would need either a 28 gram counter weight or 7 or 8 slugs of Mallory at 80-100 bucks each.
Ended up balancing with flywheel and not as much Mallory.
Have had a few problems with this shop lately which is unlike them.
Anyway my point is, research balancing your 1U well with your shop before proceeding. They are not like a garden variety (normal aftermarket) crank.

That sounds a little... Excessive? I wasn't even planning on balancing my rotating assembly as this is going to be a very mild build. The 306 windsor I built that regularly turns 6600 RPM didn't get balanced, 50k miles later it's still running strong.

My 428 was actually a rebuilt short block that was never run and then sat for a long time. I pulled it apart and had the crank polished and along with a quick hone of the cylinder walls and lifter bores.

From what I've gathered, I would simply use a regular spacer with a stock 390 balancer and matching flywheel?

[turbohunter]

It is excessive and we ended up using much less Mallory and a flywheel. I think it was a case of “well I’ve never done it THAT way”.
I bring it up just for reference and to make sure all your ducks are in a row in case you went for internal balance.

[BattlestarGalactic]

I internal balanced both my 428's.   It makes for flywheel changes much easier in the future.  You can use a plain 390 wheel instead of having to deal with specific 428 wheels.   Little extra money spent today to make life easier in the future.

[jayb]

That sounds a little... Excessive? I wasn't even planning on balancing my rotating assembly as this is going to be a very mild build. The 306 windsor I built that regularly turns 6600 RPM didn't get balanced, 50k miles later it's still running strong.

My 428 was actually a rebuilt short block that was never run and then sat for a long time. I pulled it apart and had the crank polished and along with a quick hone of the cylinder walls and lifter bores.

From what I've gathered, I would simply use a regular spacer with a stock 390 balancer and matching flywheel?

You are correct that a regular spacer and a stock 390 harmonic balancer will work with your combination.  However, a 428 crank will normally use an externally balanced flywheel.  These flywheels have a 28 ounce weight of some sort attached to them.  If you have the flywheel, see if it has that weight on it.  If it doesn't, look for evidence of balancing on the crank, there would be some slugs of mallory metal added to one or more of the counterweights on the crank.

If you just bought a 428 engine with no flywheel, I'd bet that it wasn't internally balanced, and you will need a 428 flywheel to make it work.  You could probably get away without balancing if you KNOW that the 428 crank was not internally balanced, and you have a 428 flywheel, or if you KNOW that the 428 crank was internally balanced and you have a 390 flywheel.  If you aren't sure about this, I'd really suggest you get it balanced.  If you put a stock 428 crank together with a stock 390 flywheel, you will have a significant vibration problem.

[happystang]

That sounds a little... Excessive? I wasn't even planning on balancing my rotating assembly as this is going to be a very mild build. The 306 windsor I built that regularly turns 6600 RPM didn't get balanced, 50k miles later it's still running strong.

My 428 was actually a rebuilt short block that was never run and then sat for a long time. I pulled it apart and had the crank polished and along with a quick hone of the cylinder walls and lifter bores.

From what I've gathered, I would simply use a regular spacer with a stock 390 balancer and matching flywheel?

You are correct that a regular spacer and a stock 390 harmonic balancer will work with your combination.  However, a 428 crank will normally use an externally balanced flywheel.  These flywheels have a 28 ounce weight of some sort attached to them.  If you have the flywheel, see if it has that weight on it.  If it doesn't, look for evidence of balancing on the crank, there would be some slugs of mallory metal added to one or more of the counterweights on the crank.

If you just bought a 428 engine with no flywheel, I'd bet that it wasn't internally balanced, and you will need a 428 flywheel to make it work.  You could probably get away without balancing if you KNOW that the 428 crank was not internally balanced, and you have a 428 flywheel, or if you KNOW that the 428 crank was internally balanced and you have a 390 flywheel.  If you aren't sure about this, I'd really suggest you get it balanced.  If you put a stock 428 crank together with a stock 390 flywheel, you will have a significant vibration problem.

Jay, I was planning on using a 428 specific flywheel anyways:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fiz-186541/overview/make/ford

I have a ACT lightweight flywheel in my '69 and absolutely love it, the Fidanza unit actually has provisions for an external balance and internal balance. I'm assuming this is through a weight that is simply bolted on (I had a McLeod flywheel similar to this).

The flywheel is unfortunately missing, however, there isn't any evidence of the crank being balanced; there aren't any slugs of mallory anywhere.

[jayb]

Based on no Mallory in the crank I think you'd probably be safe just bolting on a 428 flywheel with the counterweight and running with that.