Author Topic: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..  (Read 49838 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1920
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2014, 07:53:19 AM »
A couple of elephants in the room here.
1. The BBM is the best bang for the buck.
2. All Edelbrock junk is foreign, for me anyways.
3. Barry built his business selling Chinese cranks and rods. No offense Barry, but....
4. The Felony heads are 2 months plus away from being in stock. According to the web site.
5. Korea is a major trading partner and Ally with Canada and Harper just signed a Free Trade deal with them.
6. Pretty sure the USA is heavily entrenched in Korea.

I will be ordering a set of BBM's as soon as my CC recovers from the last round of assaults I committed on it.
And I will be happy and proud to have a set.

I really tried to just post data here - but this one screams for a response.

1 - nobody knows whether the BBM parts are good, bad, equal, competitive or outstanding yet.  There have been exactly zero production items sold yet - just prototypes sent out for appraisal.  All we know is that they are coming soon, from a brand new company that has never marketed a single aftermarket part before, contracting casting from an offshore supplier that nobody has ever seen or visited outside of the folks making them.  These may well be excellent parts at a great value - we just do not know yet.  Calling them "the best" is premature at this time...

2  Calling Edelbrock foreign is simply idiotic.  Sorry to be so blunt.  But whether you like or hate them, they are a company that was born and raised in the US, with a fairly new casting foundry in the US, and machining done in the US.  Criticize their quality, their business practices, or their marketing methodology if you don't like them.  Making parts here may not be an advantage to some folks, but should never be perceived as a negative by anybody.

3 Fair call.  But comparing Scat with their 20-30 year history of sales to a start-up operation seems a little simplistic.  And if there were any sort of domestic sourced competitive product I would love to offer it - we offer the excellent Callies rods as an upgrade.  But there are no domestic cast crankshaft suppliers at this time - thus no possibility of others.

4 Fair call.  FElony heads are pretty much always two months behind these days.  I have shipped 57 pair so far - more than I expected this quickly and its put me behind.  I anticipated selling a lot of castings and a few completes.  Instead I seem to be selling nearly all complete heads - each set takes us a couple days to do - still with a shop to run.  Multiply that by 50 pair and you see the problem.  It will eventually improve as I get the process refined but that will be a while.

5 and 6 No problem with Korea at all.  I just chose another path that would get me the quality I desired at a market rational price.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4835
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2014, 08:06:26 AM »
I think Howie's comment about Edelbrock being "foreign" was because he's in Canada.....they are "foreign" to him.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:55 AM »
Barry as Brent said I live in Nova Scotia, Canada.
That's almost a foreign land in Canada. :D


Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1920
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2014, 09:40:01 AM »
Fair enough - I need to pay more attention.... :-[
I don't think even a Canadian would consider the US and Korea to be equivalent...

sumfoo1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2014, 09:56:55 AM »
ohhh shit does that mean windsor motors are foreign...

lol seriously i don't consider even the mexican blocks to be foreign for some reason....

When it comes to car engines i must be very open...

And to Brents point on Chinese metallurgy i probably shouldn't make blanket statements like that.  I know the eagle stuff can be junk and it can work fine they seem to have the least QC on what they get. Am i mistaken in thinking that all of those "low end imported h beam rods" are all made in the same place regardless of the retailer here?


In construction and maintenance of the 184 buildings and 4.9 million sqft I'm responsible for in my county I've learned that Chinese 304 stainless rusts... and ours doesn't...  it makes me worry about their 4340...

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4835
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2014, 12:31:43 PM »
No sir, all the lower end H-beam rods are not made from the same place.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4462
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2014, 12:50:27 PM »
I think Howie's comment about Edelbrock being "foreign" was because he's in Canada.....they are "foreign" to him.

This really made me laugh!! Just shows that all comments have been relevant...and correct ;D ;D

Each head (Edelbrock, FElony, Blue Thunder and BBM) will have its merits, attributes and place in the food chain. That is a good thing.

As for the quality of the BBM, if Rob from Blue Oval is a major backer and placing his name on the line, you can rest assured the quality will be there. Otherwise he would not be involved.

After studying the chambers in the BBM pictures, I'm pretty intrigued by them. They obviously have some very modern "high swirl" intake design incorporated into them. That would explain the very low total timing requirements they have stated. It also would make a big difference in relation to todays less and less performance friendly gas. Less timing to achieve the same horsepower is a good thing. Along with engine management, it's the driving factor for most modern factory performance engines.

Whichever set I choose for my drag car build, I just hope I can get them in time and talk Joe into porting them for me before he gets out of it altogether :)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

fastback 427

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2014, 02:18:16 PM »
As someone who lost their job to foreign outsourcing and competition I try to buy made in the usa when possible. Koreans bought the factory ran it two years then shut it down. 1500 people, including my 59 year old mother, done. We watched as they changed our designs and heavy cast iron parts with plastic injection molding and cheap steel to up the profit margins for the shareholders. That being said I don't begrudge Barry or Brent or anyone for buying foreign parts. The Koreans have better metallurgy than the Chinese and better quality control or so we've been told. I'll let Barry, Brent and others machine a few hundred sets to see how good they are. They better be of better quality and cheaper before I'd buy them over Barry's head. I do commend Pond, Barry and Vic for having a fairly priced head, if you YouTube " Chinese manufacturing safety" you will wonder how they compete!
Jaime
67 fastback 427 center oiler 428 crank Dove aluminum
top end toploader
67 fairlane gta cross bolted 12:1 390 Dove aluminum top end c6 3600 stall
65 falcon straight axle project
67 mustang coupe project
76 f350 dually 390 mirror 105 4bbl 4spd
74 f100 xlt 390 c6 factory ac

Mike Caruso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
  • 6250
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2014, 05:50:16 PM »
The USA is in the World market today. The Great USA used to make and sell everything to them remember. World market and greed sets in....we all want the best bang for our buck. Just remember you want to deal with people that do what they say. Information is worth what????? PLENTY if someone in a engine shop lays out an engine build plan for your vehicle you should buy all the parts they can supply from them. I have 50 years invested in this Hot Rod industry and I feel you should spend your money with PEOPLE that help you.
 :)
Mike Caruso
Do It Like You Mean It .....or Don't Bother!
www.AERA.org
Engine Professional Magazine Free To All

RobMcQ

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2014, 03:57:18 AM »
Barry brings up an important point: BBM is an unknown supplier, without a history of products, good or bad.

We all know that there are teething issues when a new product is brought to market, from MAJOR issues with the FE products from Shelby, Genesis, Dove, and Pond, and even issues with the Edelbrock FE heads and RPM intakes when they came out. Doug knows that his cylinder heads and blocks, being imported, will receive the most intense scrutiny, from some very biased sources. The smallest imperfection, real or perceived, will be pounced upon and immediately held up for ridicule! And that is one reason it has taken so long for BBM to bring it's first products to market. The BBM parts have to have ALL of the bugs worked out BEFORE they are released to market. The parts have to be thoroughly tested and inspected. This has NOT been the case with ANY of the other FE parts suppliers to date. Let's leave Dove out of the discussion, but the long list of problems with early, and even later, castings from Edelbrock, Shelby, Genesis, and Pond could fill pages.

The FE builders that got these early parts knew there were going to be learning issues, you had to take it in stride and either figure out a fix or send it back and hope the next one would be better. We were just thrilled that they were making FE parts at all! So you cuss a bit, tell the customer there is a delay, and move on. Do you think everyone will cut BBM's new parts that kind of slack? Obviously not.

In actuality, BBM prototype heads have not only been sent out for appraisal, they have been on numerous running engines for the last eight months and have logged thousands of miles with no issues. We dyno'd our first engine with BBM heads last fall. ALL this was done BEFORE giving the go ahead for actual, full production. Doug has a 36 year background as a master CNC machinist, he is quite focused on the quality, accuracy, and consistency of the machining on the heads, as well as the blocks.

As for the "mysterious" offshore supplier that nobody has ever seen, yeah, maybe the folks in FE world aren't familiar with them, but the same could be said for Pond, Genesis, and 427 Garage. They don't explain who their suppliers are, or give out ANY info what so ever. And they don't have to.

The foundry and machine shop that BBM is working with may be unfamiliar to most of us, but they are major players, both at home and with Detroit. The machine shop is a regular Aerospace/Defense industry contractor, and they currently machine automotive V-6 heads and blocks for one of the big auto makers. The foundry casts aluminum and iron automotive blocks, diesel blocks, and is CGI capable. They have a fifteen year history of casting and machining blocks for Detroit and are in the process of setting up to produce new castings for Detroit at the rate of thousands per month. This is no garage operation. 

While working out details on the new engine parts, Detroit and Korea have sent teams of people back and forth many times this past year. During these trips, representatives from the foundry and machine shop have not only stopped and spent time with Doug at BBM in California, but they have even flown to Colorado and come to our little shop. Twice last year, they have sent a team here, including foundry and design engineers, a metallurgist, lead machinist, machine shop foreman and the owner. Each time, we've spent days going over blueprints, BBM parts, original parts, and other aftermarket parts, looking at how Blue Oval will be doing finish machining on the heads and blocks, flow testing, and doing mock assemblies. They insisted on mounting everything to the blocks, from intake manifold to oil pan, bell housing to motor mounts. I have been very impressed with the level of professionalism and their Can Do attitude.   They actually listen to what we have to say, and do what we ask. If I pointed out something that wasn't quite right on a prototype part, they reacted with embarrassment and assured me that it would be taken care of and would not be a problem again. It's really a matter of pride, and they want to produce a top quality part. It's very rare to find that kind of dedication anymore. It's the kind of attitude I think this country had from WWII through to the Cold War and Space Program in the Sixties.

All of us worry about the shift from U.S. to offshore manufactured goods. And while many of us will try to favor American made goods, it's almost impossible to do. Even so called American made goods are not always American. While researching suppliers for seats and guides, Doug found that while the well known US made cylinder head manufacturer's seats and guides may be finish machined here, the blanks are made in China. On their assembled heads, the valves are imported and the springs are China.  There are no cut and dried answers.

It all comes down to producing the best possible product, at a reasonable cost, with consistent availability, and excellent customer service.


Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1920
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2014, 07:20:11 AM »
Rob
I actually can agree with much of you wrote with a couple exceptions.
 
I know where Robert's stuff is made - but that is indeed his own business, will remain that way, and he does a very nice job.

I've known where Tim's blocks were cast and machined for a very long time - as I suspect you have.  It's not too challenging to find out when he is standing in their display booth at PRI most years - with a block casting nearby.  The machining is done about 45 minutes from my shop.  Pretty easy to speak with and visit the casting guys and the machining guys - no plane ticket required.

I'd rather still believe that there are plenty of very dedicated people still working here in the USA, with a high degree of skill and motivation, intent on turning out good products.  While verging on a political comment - its safe to say that we as a country have suffered from a movement to use well intentioned but ill advised government regulation to outsource our safety, wage, and environmental concerns - sending jobs to places where such issues and costs are minimized.  That movement, encouraged by the fundamental need for corporate profitability, does not justify the idea that product from other countries is in any way "better or worse" just because it's not made here.

As an aside, the last reasonably large scale U.S. valve manufacturing plant that catered to the aftermarket closed about ten years ago.  The Pennsylvania based Manley valve company shared the namesake of the New Jersey based performance Manley because it was founded by his father.  After a 90s era acquisition it ended up in the hands of Bob Green & Dynagear.  When Bob died, the Dynagear group was parted out and Basso (aka BBB) out of South America purchased the equipment and tooling.  As was the case in other plant closures - Federal-Mogul's Malden piston facility comes to mind - there was absolutely no reason to close that operation from a quality or profitability perspective. 

Name that foundry...
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 07:24:07 AM by Barry_R »

turbohunter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2509
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2014, 01:00:06 PM »
I don't know if you guys have seen this, it's off a Model T forum.
The world has changed, but thank goodness there are people (like those above) that still try to do put out a great product.

From Tom Lieb CEO of SCAT Enterprises, INC.

First I would like to answer the questions poised on the forum. Second I would like to clear up the confusion generated by some of the members. Last, I would like to thank all those who participation on the forum for heir kind words.

I am an old car guy. Presently my collection has 22 cars including a Model T. My cars go from early brass to 30’s classics. I have won Pebble Beach Vintage Class 3 different times with one of my 7 Wills St. Claires. I started making crankshafts in 1966 and connecting rods in 1972. Presently we manufacture 100 to 120 cranks a day and an average of 1000 connecting rods a day. We supply the big three with cranks and rods for prototyping as well as their crate motor programs, our O.C. system etc, falls under their guide lines. Our cranks and rods have won over the years every race venue including Indy and Daytona 500.

MG cranks were mentioned on the forum. Scat has manufactured 1000’s of these exclusively for Moss Motors since 1972 in Goleta, CA. They are forged in England on the original dies out of 4340 Chromemoly steel from British Steel. They are machined and Heat treated at our Redondo Beach facility in California.

Many years ago steel mills and forging houses started to close for obvious political, union and environmental reasons. Today there are no steel mills or forging houses left in the USA. That produced the alloys or is capable of forging crankshafts.

The Scat Model T cranks are forged in China in the same factory where Scat forged cranks for FORD, GM and Chrysler. This is under the same strict quality control standards. They are machined, balanced and heat treated in our Redondo Beach, Ca facility. I have included some pictures to show just a few of our 30 something CNC machines and one of our 12 crank grinders working on the Model T cranks. They are made of 4340 Chromemoly steel forging.

If you are ever in the L.A. area you are more than welcome to come by and visit. I will personally give you a tour of the shop and car collection. I can be reached at tlieb@scatenterprises.com or (310) 370-5501 ext. 112 if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Tom Lieb
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2014, 10:28:24 PM »
Well, most folks mean well....  I'm sure most of the folks making FE parts try their best to use stuff that is local.
It is in our nature as good people to try to help out our neighbors.

When folks here at work like to complain about the "buying stuff from elsewhere" mentality I like to tell this little story from my own life.
Well, I work 28 days at a time offshore.... 12-16 hours a day.  When I come home I've only got so much time before I have to go back.
Well, i had this pair of boots that was well beyond worn out.  They also were getting holes in them, and well... working offshore, wet feet when you work long days can not only be uncomfortable, it can be dangerous over a month as I'm sure you can imagine.

So, I told my wife I needed new boots badly.  I gave her the spec's of exactly what I wanted, Carolina boot, electrically resistant, waterproof, steel toe'd etc.  I gave her the part number, everything she needed.  She said she would go and order it from amazon.com and I said, "naw, lets go down to the local shoe store, and give them the order."  She said it'd be probably $15 more for the shoes, I told her I didn't care, it was worth it to help support a local business.  I knew this fella, I knew he was complaining about how business was suffering and he didn't know if he could keep it all going.
So she went down to the shoe store, gave them all the info, gave them the part number, even told em where they could order it if they couldn't find it.  The fella said he'd take care of it and made some phone calls.  My wife also made sure he knew that I'd be home in a week and going back to work 10 days after that.

so I get home and go visit the shoe store, he says they aren't there yet and should be in a few days.  I go stop by a few days later and he says, they aren't there yet and should be in a few days.  The day before I go back to work, I show up ready to raise hell.  I bitched him out, that in fact I was willing to spend the extra money (was actually $20 more) to get boots from him, and I feel like he'd let me down.  He scratched his head and loaded up his email program.  He goes "ohh there it is, hmmm yeah, they aren't in stock, would you like me to order something else for you?"
I freaked out a little bit, told him I was headed to work in 8 hours and wasn't ever coming back to his store.

Anyhow, I spent the next month with a lot of anti-fungal cream and wet feet, everyday I thought about how annoyed i was about trying to do the right thing.

We did indeed order online and got the boots in 48 hours.
moral of my story,  I'd like to support my neighbor, I really do, but I refuse to do myself any disservice in the meantime.
Perhaps I'm being naive and wanting to believe that everyone has the best intentions, but I tend to think all the folks having these parts have the same mentality.  They are going to try and have a local make the stuff, but in the end, they cannot sink their own boat trying to keep someone elses afloat.

BruceS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 738
    • View Profile
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2014, 09:04:33 AM »
Drew,
Hard to disagree with the moral to that story. 
Has anyone had recent experience from the Pond heads?  Robert has been mentioned a number of times in this forum; but not much comment about his head offerings. 
I thought this would be another data point to consider.

Overall, I think it's a great thing we FE'ers have so many choices these days. 

Bruce
66 Fairlane 500, 347-4V SB stroker, C4
63 Galaxie 500 fastback, 482 SO 4V, Cruise-O-Matic

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4835
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2014, 01:12:26 PM »
I'm a fan of the Pond heads, have used 2 pair in the past few months, and they seem to be solid performers.  The good thing about working with Robert is that he absolutely stands behind his stuff, no matter what, no questions asked. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports