Author Topic: Fired my new engine today (Read 12855 times)

JimNolan · « **on:** January 26, 2013, 06:52:05 PM »

Guys,
Pre-oiled the engine using the shaft and drill yesterday and fired the engine today. I cranked it 30 seconds without the coil wire on to build up oil pressure and let the carb float bowls fill and then reconnected the coil wire. Started as soon as I worked the throttle. Set the timing on 14 degrees and it sat there with 75lb oil pressure and 14" manifold pressure. Let it warm up to 180 degrees and had 45lb oil pressure at @600 rpm. When reving it doesn't blow black smoke so the #70 primary jets might be OK. Manifold pressure is steady and when decelerating from higher rpm it will indicate almost 25" manifold pressure. I haven't adjusted carb screws yet ( runs so smooth I hate to touch them ). Has a lumpy idle around 500-600 rpm but smooths out perfect @ 800 rpm. The electric choke is even set correctly. One (1) valve cover leaks and I'm using rubber gaskets. I set the rocker adjusters to 3/4 turn after slop was taken out and it seems I did a good job setting them. Once I check the rockers to make sure everything is getting oil I'll glue the new gaskets down to the engine AND the valve cover. It's too pretty to put up with oil leakage.
If anyone has advice from this point, I'm all ears. I feel like I've had some damn good advice from you guys so far. Jim

Heo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2013, 06:57:54 PM »

Nice for you Jim

kevin · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2013, 10:57:49 PM »

Jim ,sounds like a job well done.

Kevin. NZ

amdscooter · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2013, 11:44:05 PM »

Way to go Jim! looks like you got it nailed right off... what carb are you running?

JimNolan · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2013, 11:53:26 PM »

Quote from: amdscooter on January 26, 2013, 11:44:05 PM

Way to go Jim! looks like you got it nailed right off... what carb are you running?

I'm running the 750 Holley 4160 w/electric choke and vacuum secondary. It's the aluminum carb.

fe66comet · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2013, 08:59:29 AM »

A lot of just plain mechanical ability has a lot to do with it some got it, some don't. Congrats on the results!!!!!

My427stang · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2013, 09:04:12 AM »

Good job Jim, get it out there and give it a good break in as soon as you can!

Lots of throttle movement throws oil all over the place, combined with a goo stretch if normal operating temperatures makes everything even better

Try to avoid starting it up to impress Mrs Nolan and your beer buddies until then

JimNolan · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2013, 08:06:24 AM »

Update on New engine:
Had a chance to adjust Carb idle yesterday. I let it warm up to 180 degrees. The oil pressure seems a little high (80lbs when cold, 50lbs when hot). Idle rpm is giving me fits. A decent idle will have to be @800rpm. Anything less is misery to watch. Manifold vacuum is 15-16" at idle, 20"at 2000 rpm, deceleration is 25". I took a video showing the temps, rpm, pressures and vacuum but I don't see a way of posting it. I'm going to go ahead and take my other engine out now. I'll let the 410 rest for a while.
BTW: I sealed the valve covers down and it doesn't leak a drop now. I just sealed the bottom side of the valve cover though. I just hope I don't need to go back in there for some reason. Jim Thanks again guys.

fe66comet · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2013, 08:34:06 AM »

I would think with some cam 800 is about right. You might try turning the idle screws out till it Smooths out then stumbles a little then back in a half turn. Make sure you alternate screws keeping them the same, if you have secondary idle jets you will need to keep those the same also. Another factor could be a vacuum leak, go to a medical supply and pick up a cheap stethoscope and change the hose on it to be about 3 foot of washer line and listen around, isolating the sound will help pin down any issues.

amdscooter · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2013, 01:13:23 PM »

^^^ Good info! Please keep updating as the data Jim! It is going to be useful when I get the time to sort out my issues this upcoming summer. Started a new job and just have not had the time to properly dial my new build in yet. Runs pretty good but I can tell I'm leaving performance on the table not being dialed in... my laundry list.

Idle RPM. Mine likes to run at about 1000~1100rpm in neutral with about 9 degrees initial mechanical advance, drops to about 800rpm in gear. Hunts a lot until really warmed up.

Mechanical and vacuum advance. I tried putting some Mr. Gasket springs in my stock dist to get the mechanical advance to 34~36 degrees "all in" by 2500 rpm to help my off the line acceleration. No noticeable difference and I'm still getting "pinging" at lower rpm even with the vacuum advance attached and premium fuel. I pulled the Petronix II module and went back to points which cleaned up the idle quite a bit. I'd like to get my initial mechanical advance in the 12~15 range and total to about 34~36.. it's apparently not going to happen with this stock distributor. keeping my eye on ebay for a used Mallory unit.

Carburation. Thinking the Holley 600cfm/vacuum secondary/ele choke is smallish for my build and adding to other issues. Probably fine for break in, but it's a cold blooded b*tch. I gotta let it run for some time before the choke opens fully. Off the line performance is lacking. It moves.. but getting the lone stock 14 inch wheel to smoke should not be as hard as it is when I mash the pedal. Might consider a 2500ish stall later(running stock now) if a 700cfm+ mechanical secondary and above ignition issues don't get me some green light tire smoking satisfaction.

For some reason I get "spikes" in the tach every now and then.. possible grounding issue.

fe66comet · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2013, 02:52:18 PM »

Sounds like the distributor is causing havoc, the stock vacuum advanced units do not like cam changes very much. The tach is also a giveaway of timing issues. My advice, get a MSD 6a and billet distributor. You'll love the increased throttle response.

JimNolan · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2013, 04:15:17 PM »

Amdscooter,
Look up duraspark recurving instructions on the internet. You'll find a distributor bible I have learned to live by. I weld up my mechanical advance slots on all my distributors to give me 34-36 total degrees.
I'm using the Mr. Gasket distributor springs on my 410 build but I can't tell you how long they'll stay in there. I found I couldn't run them on my 406 with C6 transmission and run a vacuum advance too. For me to be able to get the idle down to a permissible rpm to keep the transmission from being torn out of the car when shifting from Park-Reverse-Drive I had to go to a Duraspark that allowed me to set the initial at 17 degrees and still start it after it had warmed up. The Duraspark retards the timing 6 degrees on startup. My max total is set to 34 degrees but I think it'd take a little more total.
From my observation I've found the Mr. Gasket springs are for all out acceration. Having springs that give you maximum mechanical advance at 2100 rpm plays hell when a 10 degree vacuum advance kicks in at the same time. On my 406 I got full advance at 2100 rpm, not 2500. When you start out with your foot on the floor you don't have to worry about the vacuum advance working. Besides that, I can't imagine making a stock distributor work with a bigger cam at slow speeds and cruising.
My advice to you if you are running the Mr. Gasket springs is to limit your max rpm by welding up the mechanical slots to get the 20 or so mechanical and 14 or so initial so you don't have to idle at 1000 rpm to keep your engine running.
There are advantages to running a $500 aftermarket distributor system on your car. You don't have to learn anything and just have to follow the wiring schematic. Just kidding, they have rev-limiters, little LED lites that flash, you have better control over timing at 6500-7000 shifts and they can produce another 10,000 volts of energy that you don't really need with their super-duper coils you have to buy to go along with the modules. LOL Good luck.

fe66comet · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2013, 05:52:34 PM »

Yes it is about 500 bucks if you get the 6AL digital like I have but offers no modules needed. Soft rev limit is nice so you do not load the engine and destroy it. The box itself has capability of all trigger types including points and costs under 150 bucks. The big money is replacing the inaccurate worn out distribute. They were never intended to spin over 5000 rpm if that.

fe66comet · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2013, 06:23:08 PM »

Here is the street fire for 135.00 has multi spark and rev limiter. I went with the 6al digital that is 220.00

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/msd-6302

amdscooter · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2013, 06:27:09 PM »

Sorry to hijack your thread Jim and thank you both for your advise. I'm thinking I'll just keep my eyes open for a used Mallory 8595 or Unilite distributor. Welding mine up for a recurve would cost just a few bucks shy of what the Mallory(s) would cost used and they both have adjustable total mechanical advance. I agree that my current issues are probably more than 70% timing with the remaining possibly split between the carb and torque converter.

JimNolan · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2013, 06:35:36 PM »

Quote from: fe66comet on February 02, 2013, 05:52:34 PM

Yes it is about 500 bucks if you get the 6AL digital like I have but offers no modules needed. Soft rev limit is nice so you do not load the engine and destroy it. The box itself has capability of all trigger types including points and costs under 150 bucks. The big money is replacing the inaccurate worn out distribute. They were never intended to spin over 5000 rpm if that.

fe66comet,
I always buy a rebuilt distributor from Napa and they always have the cast gears on them. I don't run roller cams so bronze and iron are out of the question. I don't go over 5K rpm, won't go over 5k either. Not because I don't think the engine will do it, just because I think the engine is getting ready to explode. Besides, you have to run your numbers no matter how fast you go.
Now that said, you and me both know that you know a lot more about distributors than I do. I am concerned about this 410 I'm putting in the 57. It's a 5 speed and I just might miss a gear. I'm planning no more than 4750 rpm and work my way down a little in the higher gears. Which self contained distributor would you recommend with a built in rev-limiter that uses a standard type coil and distributor cap. Jim

fe66comet · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2013, 07:28:35 PM »

I just never liked ford distributes honestly spacing of the terminals causes crossfire in damp conditions. I have tractors with that problem and they never see muck over 800 rpm. The box will help with plug fouling at low rpm with the multi spark and help prevent fuel contamination. Also cold starts are no longer an issue or flooding. The other factor and a major one for me is fuel efficiency, it will mean its keep quickly as a lot less fuel is going out of the tailpipe and being made.into power. You can still use the.Napa distribute but you will have to loose the vacuum advance due to the cam so pinning the plate is necessary. A coil upgrade to MSD or Bosh is a cheap upgrade just paint it black and it looks stock that is about 20 or 30 bucks. Good wires will help you the most no Napa Milage Plus or Echlin junk. I worked at Napa tried them had too much resistance and burned caps up. Get a good set of 8 km wires and you will save a lot of money and aggravating in the long run. Also no aluminum or zinc terminal caps the burn up in weeks , get a brass one . Even if you don't get the box I would still do the basic solid tune up and fix that advance problems to make it run decent.

amdscooter · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2013, 01:59:27 PM »

Hey Jim, hope all is good with your new build. Just thought I'd give a quick update as the weather was nice yesterday here and I got under the hood for a bit. After some road testing I'm finding the best running setup on my stock re-manufactured distributor with points is the Mr. Gasket "all in" at 2100~2400 springs, vacuum advance disconnected, 10 degrees initial and 36 degrees total. Idle in park is about 1k rpm dropping to 800rpm in gear. Still have not located my vacuum gauge so I might break down and buy one today. As you noted earlier the spring kit and vacuum advance simply did not wanna play nice together at all. It really likes more initial (12~15) off the line, but doing so wrecks my total advance budget and it pigs at highway speeds.

I've made the decision to get another distributor with vacuum that can be pinned that is a bit more easy to adjust the total mechanical advance. Probably end up with a Mallory Unilite or MSD 8595. I could probably achieve the same result eventually with a stock distributor, but at this pint feel I've already invested too much time in it. I've learned a ton. But with two young kids and a new job.. I need just something a bit more plug-n-play friendly at this point.

Chime in when you get a chance as our builds are similar and your input has been very informative. I'm thinking in a few months I'll probably migrate off my 600cfm/vac secondaries Holley. Like to know what you think of the performance with your 750cfm/vac sec carburetor as I'm considering the same size possibly going to a double pumper.

JimNolan · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2013, 02:16:44 PM »

amdscooter,
I got the old engine out yesterday and this week I'll be cleaning up the engine bay to ready it for the new engine. I'm excited to see how the new engine does on drivability. With 16 inches manifold pressure at 800 rpm idle I think it'll do good. 800 rpm is the lowest I can go and not make it sound like a 1 cylinder hit and miss Farmall tractor. It'll be a while before I get everything back together. I'll be running it at the FE Race and Reunion at Beaver Springs, Pa on April 27th if all goes well.
Oh yes, the double pumper. I think if you'll research, the double pumper doesn't come with vacuum secondary. That could be a problem driving on the street. Jim

fe66comet · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2013, 03:34:20 PM »

I live by the rule mechanical secondaries for a stick and vacuum for a auto. The mechanical on a auto seems to bog and get ahead of itself. I welt vacuum on my stick car but upped the primary mechanical size to compensate for more throttle response, the secondary will just open as needed for more CFM at higher rpm. I have two square bore vacuum secondary carbs at 750 each. With my calculations I need 1000 CFM at 6500. So with both primary bores mechanically full open the extra 350 CFM or so gets pulled from 5500 to 7000.

amdscooter · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2013, 07:33:05 PM »

^^^ Thanks for both your input on the Holley. I'll leave that one open until I get the distributor replaced. Once I get the initial and total advance in a curve I like I might not be thinking mechanical secondaries any more but simply a more appropriate cfm rating.

BruceS · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2013, 10:30:25 AM »

Jim, that '57 is lookin good! The red/white combo is great and the Cragars compliment it too.

Scooter, FWIW my Fairlane with the 347 SB has a 650 double-pumper with manual choke and secondaries. Dist is an MSD Pro-Billet @ 15 deg initial advance. Starts easily and no acceleration issues even though it has a C4 trans and a tall gear. I'd do it that way again... The only problem I've had is sticking floats when I've let the car sit for a month or two and not drained the fuel pump to carb gas line.

Bruce

69Cobra · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2013, 09:44:34 AM »

I'm a little late on the subject but with a new engine try not to do to much joy idling. You need to get a load on it to get the rings seated in.

My427stang · « **Reply #23 on:** March 27, 2013, 09:56:03 AM »

Whats the scoop on the new engine? Been down the road yet?

JimNolan · « **Reply #24 on:** March 27, 2013, 11:17:46 AM »

My427stang,
I've got about 400 miles on it now. It's smooth as silk. The engine idles very well at 650 is just a slight lope (very slight). The one thing I've noticed about it is the amount of exhaust that is coming out the tail pipes for idling at 650rpm. That's probably a weird thing to notice but it really struck me odd. I haven't had it over 3000 rpm yet and I'm not cruising on the interstate very long with it. I continually run it up to 3000 rpm between shifts and drive where I'll not maintain one speed all the time. I haven't barked the tires yet either. I thought I'd give the ceramic clutch disc time to wear in also. I can't get over how smooth and quiet it is. This is going to be a very good application for me. I just hope the gas mileage isn't that bad. The car is just as smooth and drivable as the 300 hp 390 was. The only difference is you can tell there is a lot more to be had when you shift gears. If I can't get a couple thousand miles on it by the end of April I won't be drag racing it at Beaver Springs. I'll just put it in the show. I'm going to change oil to Brad Penn in about another 100 miles. Jim PS Thanks for checking on me.

My427stang · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2013, 12:10:56 PM »

If it were mine, I'd run it in the RPM range you plan to run it at the races, at least now and then

Matter of fact, if something is going to break at 5000 rpm, it'll do it regardless of going easy for 1000 miles or not. I'd much rather catch second gear and break it in my neighborhood than at the races LOL Not to mention the cam will be happy with as much oil as you can throw at it LOL

Although in 4000 miles it wont make a noticeable ridge, keeping it at low RPM isn't doing a thing for reliability, some good hard accel and decel is good for a break in, but honestly, engines don't need that much

Regardless, nice work, sounds like it hit exactly the mark

JimNolan · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2013, 05:56:44 AM »

Guys,
As some may know, I missed the FE Race and Reunion because my pull truck lost it's brakes at the Pa. border and I turned around and went back home. Saturday, I got a chance to see the rewards of my labor. My buddy in a 2008 Mustang Bullitt beat me 1/2 a car length from a red light. I was on 215/70R15 tires and I know I can reduce my ET by 8 tenths with my Hoosier tires. Our buddies behind us said my car didn't blow any blue or black smoke so I'm presuming the 750 Holley isn't too big for my engine. I know I was pleased with the feel all the way through the 1/4 ( or less ). If it had lasted very much longer I would have gotten him. I was pulling him in 4th gear. I didn't get to go very far in 4th gear because of traffic.
I hope to take it to a drag strip soon and know what I've got. At least I learned I might better get a helmet if I want to run more than once. Jim

bn69stang · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2013, 07:43:23 AM »

nice toys , congrats on a job well done and the MSD stuff is really nice and simple ..

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Author Topic: Fired my new engine today (Read 12855 times)

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