Toploader question

[Ratbird]

After reading My427stang's comments on gear ratio's under the "12 second pass" string I started wondering. Can you change out the transmission gears from a close ratio to a make a wide ratio? If so does anyone have an idea how much a rebuild on a toploader should cost? I know I could sell my close ratio and buy a wide, but my close is a RUG-AJ which has the longer tail piece and the 1 3/8 input output shafts. Is the 1 3/8 really that big of a deal if my car only has 450ft lb torque?

The reason I ask is because right now I have a 2.32 1st gear and a 3.89 differential. 2.32 x 3.89 = 9.02 SLR -  a 2.78 (wide ratio 1st gear) would give me a 10.9 SLR which would be much better out of the hole, especially when I get a posi-trac diff. I was thinking about going to a 4.3 diff, but that would only give me a 9.97 SLR with my close ratio trans and set my RPM's really high at the finish line.
This kind of stuff never occurred to me before I read 427stang's comments.

I want the car to have some drivability on the street and interstate and anything taller than the 3.89 rearend would really make that tough. But I also want it to jump off the line. Right now I'm at 2600ish rpm to go 55 mph.

Is this the wrong place to ask a trans question? Hope the FE forum is OK.

thx, Dave   

[fastback 427]

Hey ratbird, try Dan Williams or David Kee. They make everything for the toploader that you need. Rebuild kits are $175 at Dan's for the road race. Changing gears is a lot more money. I'm a little more partial to Dan, since his car is a dual quad 427 68 Fastback with a, you guessed it.... toploader    My top loader had his modular gears, input shaft, and everything else. Shifts like butter. Goes into any gear at 7500 rpm with no hesitation. With out a doubt the best trans I have ever used. Also did you check out the link about the 69 ford drag team?  Thats power shifting!

[machoneman]

Yes, going to the 2.78 first would help a lot with the 0-60' times (and overall e.t) compared to the 2.32 first.  Not going to be cheap though as mentioned!

Here's a handy link worth reading although it's Tremec versus Richmond related, not a mention of  T-loader.

http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/5sp_comparison.html

Still, the 3:00+ first gear ratio transmissions are the best way to go, yet either tranny isn't exactly cheap. Both though give you much more overall gear ratio flexibility for highway cruising. Jay used to run a Richmond 5-speed like the one I have in my SBF Mach 1. Top gear (5th) is cool as it's direct drive and soaks up zero hp, at speed, compared to overdriven trannys (less than 1:1 in high gear).  Tremecs though have come a long way from their introduction and the latest models are somewhat stronger than even the Doug Nash inspired Richmond 5/6 speed transmissions.  Fast ain't cheap! 

[BH107]

All of the parts cost about $750.00 from David Kee, plus the labor do have it done. This is the only way to get a 1 3/8" input wide ratio, as they never were built by Ford that way.

[garyv]

I'm currently in the process of converting a wide ratio toploader from small I/O  to big input and output shaft.
Parts are around $750 plus the tailshaft has to be bored for the larger shaft and bushing.
I purchased my stuff from David Kee and also sent the tailshaft to him to be modified.
The rest of the work I wil do.
To convert a close to wide ratio is more since you will need a wide ratio cluster and a few other gears.
Not cheap to do but much less than buying a new transmission.
Call David and talk to him he can tell you exactly what you need and the price.
garyv

[Ratbird]

Thanks everyone. This car is an ongoing project that will change gradually throughout the years. I wanted to get it running and then go step by step from here. Hence the 3.89 one wheel RE. Eventually I would like something like a 3.89 posi and a 5 speed (maybe a Tremec) that has a low 1st gear and of course the 5th gear for cruising. I had looked at Kee's web site to get a rough idea. I have never worked on a tranny so your info helps me a lot. It seems to me that the larger input and output shafts would be more important in a drag car than a track car because of the hole shot stress from HP and slicks. Yet they only made 1 3/8 for the close ratio which was sposed to be a track car tranny? I guess they didn't have the modern day enhancements that can put out so much HP and torque back then.

For the next couple of years I'll have to keep the toploader. Maybe I should just look to see if I can find someone to trade, or sell this one and buy a used wide ratio. But then I'd have to get a longer drive shaft and correct size clutch. Maybe for now I'll look for a 4.30 3rd member to get my hole shot better. That would be the cheapest until I have enough to go to a 5 speed. Hmmm, spending money for a temporary set up, until I can save enough for the right set up......this'll take some thought.

thx for the help!
Dave 

[Heo]

You can get a cheap posi by stuffing a pair of jeans
betwen the spidergears that was done to a
Volvo 164 my son bought

[bn69stang]

You could even use the wide ratio 2.78 first gear small in small , small out toploader with street tires you would never hook it hard enough to hurt the tranny on the street . or just get a tremec tko 500 with the 3.27 first gear and your 3.89 would give you  12.72  lol ..... Bud

[bn69stang]

Just give Doug a call , he has several toploaders including the one i just sold him a while back and get you a 2.78 first gear and he can get you parts . way out your options Dave and decide what driving you want to do with your car, IMHO its hard to beat the tremec because you can run rear end gear and have an overdrive for freeway cruising , i think dave key s has a kit for tranny to change it to 2.78 / wide ratio ..Bud (505)934-4127

[bn69stang]

Machoneman or open , how much is to much  S L R the site you posted is awsome info and they suggesred stay ng under 12.0 , i have e tremec tko 500 with 3.50 s and wanted to go to 3.70 s but that would be 12.09 s l r or get the tko 600 and use 3.89 s  ? with the 3.50 s its 11.44 s l r .. Bud

[Ratbird]

Hey thx Bud, I take it you got my e-mail?

I had no idea Doug did anything with transmissions. You are refer to Doug Anderson, correct?

My pie crust cheater slicks are an old school tire. They are actually retreads from a place called "Towel city" that deals in retro look tires. So they aren't really designed for racing but they are 8 inches wide and 28.5 inches in diameter. I would have thought I could spin them easily with an fe, a one tire 3.89, and a dual friction clutch but I can't. I want to keep the 3.89 so my top end cruising speed and rpm stays the same, but with a wide ratio I could get the line jump better, especially if I go to a posi or limited slip.

The tremec is at least 2 years away money wise.

Dave J

[babybolt]

I did the wide ratio conversion back in the early 90's, it was one of the best things I did.  It cost about $800 back then using a good wide ratio small block core.  At that time the parts were not available so Liberty welded a used cut off big input shaft to the gear.  Then they bored out the tailhousing for the 31 spline output shaft from Dan Williams. 

With a healthy big block, you'll find the close ratio box is not much use on the street.  Because the engines have such a wide torque band, on a normal take off you can start in 2nd or 3rd gear with a close ratio box, rending 1st gear just about useless. 

With the wide ratio box I went from a 3.70 gear to a 3.50 rear gear and probably should have gone even to somewhere around 3.30.

The 1 to 2 shift does become a little more critical with the wide ratio box if your launching the car hard.

[bn69stang]

Yes Dave i did and how much were you wanting to spend fixing your top loader , or buy ng another one ? just wondering . .Bud

[Ratbird]

Well, there's a lot of variables. Ideally I'd like to keep my RUG-AJ because it is 27 inches long and has the 1 3/8 drive. Then I could keep my existing drive shaft and my shift linkage. To change from a close to wide - I'm hoping that'll cost around $1,000 for parts and labor??? Probably more though as the parts look to be around $800 alone. I don't want to pay shipping costs etc so I'd like to find an Albuquerque shop to rebuild it.

Other option is to sell mine, buy a wide, and get a new drive shaft. I haven't priced drive shafts yet. I guess I need to get on the phone and start getting some info from David Kee and Dan Williams. I'll first see what Anderson has.   
Here's mine;


Does that wound realistic?

Dave J

[Ratbird]

one more question, can you guys tell me what a Tremec 5 speed for a BBF costs?
Is there much hope in finding a used one?

thx a ton, Dave J

[bn69stang]

I may have tremec t k o 500 for sale , call me and i ll explain Dave  (505)934-4127 , they are  $2400.00 new

[Ratbird]

Just got this at 9:20 Bud.
I'll call you tomorrow as I work at 6:30am and go to bed fairly early.

I saw that the Tremec's are $2400, plus $250 for an "FE conversion kit". Doing some math, if I sell my transmission, shifter, and linkage the Tremec would net me a bill of about $2000. The David Kee kit will cost me $585, plus a rebuild kit for $141.85, and Anderson said he could rebuild it for about $250. So that's about $1000. Difference of about $1000.

However I don't know yet if I'll have to also buy a 26 tooth clutch, etc. Oh, and a drive shaft because mine trans is 27 inches and the Tremec's are 24. I just bought my 10 tooth, Centerforce set, hate to waste all that money too. Then again, maybe the FE kit makes it so I won't have to.

I'll call you tomorrow though and maybe you can enlighten this rookie a little bit.

thx, Dave J   

[jayb]

I may have tremec t k o 500 for sale , call me and i ll explain Dave  (505)934-4127 , they are  $2400.00 new

Next time please send a PM rather than putting a post on the board for parts that you have for sale.  We try to keep "for sale" stuff in the classifieds.  Thanks, Jay

[Heo]

Can anyone tell me if you have to cut the
floor in a 64 Galaxie to fit a tko trans

[Ratbird]

Heo, I'm guessing you'd have to get up in there and measure it. I googled "1964 galaxie with a tremec 500" and found some articles where it was done, but it was dependent on whether the car has an XL console or not.

Back to my tranny. I decided to get the wide ratio conversion kit from David Kee. The input shaft will be for a big block. He was very helpful.

The kit is $585, a rebuild kit is $141.85. Doug Anderson in Alb. said he could rebuild it for ~$200. All said and done it's ~$1000.

I'll let you know how it turns out in a bout 6 weeks.

thx for all the help and links, Dave J   

[bn69stang]

Not a problem Dave , not sure which direction im going yet either , thats why i said may have . But i did get my hyd roller ordered yesterday . Bud

[Ratbird]

I'll hang on to your number Bud - next time I'm in Albuq and I have a little time I'd like to see your car.

Dave

[bn69stang]

Sounds good Dave , look forward to meeting you neighbor and good luck on your tranny build . I am going to call  D @ D  performance and price out parts to go from tko 500 to 600 , it s 1st , 2nd and 3rd and few other parts and attempt the change over 

[Ratbird]

Just an update. I found a local guy that rebuilds trans, he teaches auto mechanics at Norther NM college. He did a great job for $250! David Kee's wide ratio large input kit is very impressive.

It took me about two and half hours to reinstall everything, practice makes perfect.

What a difference from a standing start. (~9 SLR to ~11 SLR). 

Can't wait to take it down to Albuq and see what it runs. That'll probably be in late April to early May.

thx for all the help and input gents!

DAve J

[Ididntdoit]

Try mike forte near boston MA for tremec info - hes the go-to guy for swaps