Top Oiler 427 FE Ate a Pushrod Cup

[randomologist]

A little background on the engine, it's a 1963 427 FE "R" code dual quad low riser. The engine is setup to be virtually stock and was re-assembled about 5yrs ago after sitting under my dad's work bench for 45 years. It was 0.020 over after my dad rebuilt the engine for the first time in 1968, but it burned a rod bearing shortly after. It's now 0.030 over after having the block welded due to water freezing in it while in it's long 45 years of sitting in the corner of a garage. Stock heads, TRW stock AA replacement cam from the 60s, some lightweight lifters from the same era, etc. The engine was assembled professionally by Crow Custom Cast Welding in Wisconsin after a crack in the block from freezing was welded up and after a break in, it was dyno'd at Tesar Racing Engines where it made 436hp @ 5800 and 458lb/ft @ 3600 (start of pull). The engine has about 10k on it now as it's my summertime daily driver in a 69 Mustang.
 
I had a pushrod cup fail and break out and the adjustable rocker arm screw was damaged in the process. The pushrod base looks normal and the pushrod itself was not significantly bent. Upon initial inspection, it looks like the other rocker arm screws and pushrods are fine, but I'm at a bit of a loss in regard to finding OEM style self-locking rocker arm screws.

I haven't completed a full inspection of the valvetrain and camshaft yet, but I'm preparing in case a cam lobe or other components were damaged as well.

1) Am I better off buying a set of new rocker arm screws with locking nuts?

2) In case of cam lobe damage, it looks like Lunati makes the OEM AA replacement camshaft, but it's currently out of stock. Holman & Moody seems to also have an offering. I know Crane had one, but it looks like Comp Cams has discontinued it after the buyout. Recommendations on cam supplier if I have to go that route?

Thanks in advanced for any advice you can lend me!

[machoneman]

I wonder if the p-rods are hitting the intake. Although the pic may be a tad distorted, the last p-rod looks bent. I'd pull it and others to see if they have been rubbing. Not having enough clearance is somewhat common in FE's for a host of machining and other casting issues.

[6667fan]

Those pushrods look like they have been around awhile. I wonder if they are just fatigued?  If they are standard length they could be replaced easily and the job would give you the chance to inspect all rockers and adjusters.

[randomologist]

I wonder if the p-rods are hitting the intake. Although the pic may be a tad distorted, the last p-rod looks bent. I'd pull it and others to see if they have been rubbing. Not having enough clearance is somewhat common in FE's for a host of machining and other casting issues.

Hey machoneman, none of the pushrods seem bent in person and even the broken cup pushrod rolled smooth on a flat surface with an ever so slight gallop. Still I'll definitely be pulling all the pushrods (pulled the passenger side valve cover first) and inspecting everything pretty close in case of any impact damage. I'm hoping to find the missing pushrod cup bits in the oil pan.

[randomologist]

Those rods look like they have been around awhile. I wonder if they are just fatigued?  If they are standard length they could be replaced easily and the job would give you the chance to inspect all rockers and adjusters.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were the original pushrods for the engine. It was raced very hard when my dad got it and it needed to be bored 0.020 over to clean up the bores. My dad raced it for a very short while after, but I had the builder inspect and re-use as much as he could.

[pbf777]

I wonder if the p-rods are hitting the intake.

     Definitely check this as they do appear close at the bottom (closest to the head) of the hole in the intake.   

Those pushrods look like they have been around awhile.

     They certainly appear to be of the older type of construction; a good reason to perhaps buy something newer!  But beyond this, they look to be a tad on the short side, this causing excessive extension of the adjuster below the rocker arm which does increase the deflective force in the alignment between the two, increases the bending (breaking) leverage to the rocker arm, loss of movement as measured at the valve ,and compounds the clearance issue as witnessed in your photos.   

     Scott.

     

[Mr Woodys Garage]

I Would Be Rather Concerned About The Broken Rocker Arm In The Foreground Of The Photo As Well. The Casting Around The Adjuster Looks Suspect Too, Like a Hole Was Drilled Next To It? Im Suprised No One Else,Including You Mentioned It. This Engine Appears To Have Had A Hard Life, But In Respect To Your Father, and What The Engine Is, Please Have Someone Who Is Qualified Inspect It. Without Having An Actual "Original" FE Adjustable Rocker Arm Pushrod In Front Of Me, I Can't Say For Sure, But At Least In My Memory, They Didn't Look Like That In The Socket Area, And, As Previously Mentioned, They Appear To Be a Bit Shorter Than Normal In The Photo. Before Risking Any Other Damage, Or Un Necessary Future Down Time, Inspection And Repair Should At Least Include Removal Of The Intake, And Oil Pan To find The Missing Pieces, And To Thouroughly Clean Up Any Additional Shrapnel. Cut The Oil Filter Apart To Look For Any "Glitter." I Would Recommend Replacement Of The Oil Pump Pickup Tube/Screen While Its Apart As Well. If It Is, Indeed Fairly Stock In Its Components, Small Pieces Of Metal, And Even Brittle Valve Seals Find Their Way Under The Strap That Goes Across The Stock Pickup Screen, and Somehow End Up Eventually In The Oil Pump, Locking It Up. Looks Like NEW Rocker Assemblies, And Proper Length Pushrods Are In Order At A Minimum. JMO

[randomologist]

I appreciate the feedback! When I looked at the pushrods and the intake manifold, I didn't see any signs of rubbing or witness marks, which doesn't surprise me as the engine is almost all OEM stuff. None of the pushrods appear bent, but I'll be inspecting closer. I didn't notice any clearance issues when I adjusted the lash last year (2,000mi ago) either. The lash had held consistent with only one lash adjuster needing to be tightened down .002. Some of the self locking adjusters turned a little easier than I'd like, but none of them turned freely.

The pushrods appear original, and they spent 50 years in a box in the garage, but I doubt they have 25,000 miles on them, but the first 10,000 should be assumed as all hard racing (like pretty much all the 427s). The rockers, rocker shafts, intake manifold and heads are all original. The valve springs and valves were replaced when I had the engine assembled and I went with relatively light spring pressure on a set of beehive springs as the engine will never be raced by me. I double checked and the engine has 15,000 miles of daily driving and road tripping on it over the past 6 years.

Honestly, it's hard to pinpoint the reason for failure for me. Best guess is the self locking adjuster was imperfect or the threads just too worn out and it backed off allowing the pushrod to start getting hammered in concert with the angle at the adjuster. Maybe allowed the adjuster to hit higher up on the crown of the pushrod instead of deeper into the cup and that caused fatigue and break out on a piece the crown? Obviously, things would spiral pretty fast after that. Since I drive the car so much, perhaps I just didn't notice the lifters getting louder and I overlooked the signs of the valvetrain loosening up over time? I did notice what seemed to be a louder tick than normal for about 2 miles before the breakage, but until at least a day or two earlier, the engine still had a sweet spot at between 1600-1800rpm where the valvetrain was nearly silent and smooth as butter. Haha, I suppose reading that last paragraph I'm just going in circles.

I think I'll replace all the pushrods just in case and self locking rocker screws.

Any thoughts on the PRW rocker arm screw kit (PQX-9539008). I can't seem to find an OEM self-locking style.

Looks like the replacement pushrods would be the Melling MPR-78s 5/16" x 9.157" but I'll do a little more exact measuring, though it would be nice not to have to spend $150 for a full set, haha.

I'm also still concerned about the cam lobe. I'll check the valve movement with one of the good adjusters and and pushrods from another rocker. Should I go with Holman Moody if the cam was damaged by the pounding?

[randomologist]

I Would Be Rather Concerned About The Broken Rocker Arm In The Foreground Of The Photo As Well. The Casting Around The Adjuster Looks Suspect Too, Like a Hole Was Drilled Next To It? Im Suprised No One Else,Including You Mentioned It. This Engine Appears To Have Had A Hard Life, But In Respect To Your Father, and What The Engine Is, Please Have Someone Who Is Qualified Inspect It. Without Having An Actual "Original" FE Adjustable Rocker Arm Pushrod In Front Of Me, I Can't Say For Sure, But At Least In My Memory, They Didn't Look Like That In The Socket Area, And, As Previously Mentioned, They Appear To Be a Bit Shorter Than Normal In The Photo. Before Risking Any Other Damage, Or Un Necessary Future Down Time, Inspection And Repair Should At Least Include Removal Of The Intake, And Oil Pan To find The Missing Pieces, And To Thouroughly Clean Up Any Additional Shrapnel. Cut The Oil Filter Apart To Look For Any "Glitter." I Would Recommend Replacement Of The Oil Pump Pickup Tube/Screen While Its Apart As Well. If It Is, Indeed Fairly Stock In Its Components, Small Pieces Of Metal, And Even Brittle Valve Seals Find Their Way Under The Strap That Goes Across The Stock Pickup Screen, and Somehow End Up Eventually In The Oil Pump, Locking It Up. Looks Like NEW Rocker Assemblies, And Proper Length Pushrods Are In Order At A Minimum. JMO

Image processing and angles do some weird stuff sometimes. I posted some better angles of the pushrod clearance and the suspect rocker arm. The hole/breakout which seems to appear on the rocker arm in the original image is just a shadow. The pushrod clearance isn't as tight as it seems as folks can see from the pushrod image.

I appreciate the concern on the engine internals. I'll be looking for the chunk or two of the pushrod crown, no doubt, and if I can't find them, I'll definitely be yanking the engine to pull things apart. The engine did have a hard life originally, but it's been putted around since everything was totally gone through a few years ago. Just have to wait and see on those things. For now, I know for a fact I need a couple parts, haha.

[frnkeore]

Regarding the push rods, you need 1.5 - 2 threads, showing at the ball end, under the RA at lash setting. By the looks of your setup, you need push rods, about .15 longer, to get that.

Back some of your adjuster out to leave the threads at that setting. Make sure the cups not make contact with the RA at that setting, too. What ever the average distance is, to your push rod, after doing that, is the amount you need to increase the length of the push rod.

You can easily measure it by, screwing the adjuster down, to your push rod, count the number of turns and multiply by the adjuster pitch, of .050.

You can contact Smith Bros Push rods at https://www.pushrods.net and order any size and length you want.

[machoneman]

No p-rod witness marks. Clearance to the intake's p-rod bore looks fine. Perhaps it was just fatigue from hard running. Frank's post has the dope on what to do.

[randomologist]

Hey all, my Smith Bros pushrods came in and I got to re-installing everything. Unfortunately, I have a couple pushrod cups which kiss the rocker arm at max lift. Any recommendations on that? Thoughts on clearancing the rocker arms a few thousandths there?

[jayb]

If you space the rocker stands up you should be able to eliminate that contact.  Find some washers or shims of the same thickness, maybe .060" or so, and check for interference with them installed.  Make sure the hole in the washer is large enough on the one stand where the oil comes up the bolt to the shaft.  I wouldn't recommend grinding the rocker arm in the area where the adjuster goes through, it can be a weak point in the rocker.

[randomologist]

It's the top edge of the pushrod cup touching the bottom of the oiler casting. It looks like the new pushrod cups are quite a bit deeper than the old cups. I'm going to have the pushrod cup height ground down a bit and see if that gets me my clearance.

If that fails, I'll try the spacer approach. I don't want to wait another month and a half for more custom pushrods, haha.

[randomologist]

Here's a shot of what I'm talking about