1963 Ford Galaxie 390FE with Holley Sniper EFI

[rustyhealey]

I am struggling to get the Holley Sniper system on my 1963 Galaxie running properly. I've had the car a decade and it's been on various flavors of 650 4-barrel carbs for most of that time. Got tired of playing with vacuum springs, pump cams and jets. The car is a bruiser. It sits in mega-hot Atlanta traffic, and its out and about on 30 degree days. I drive it nearly daily, that my 7 year old son rides in, and which my wife drives from time to time - it needs to be bulletproof.

The car:
1963 Galaxie 500 Fastback
Recently rebuilt and healthy bone stock 390 FE
Holley Sniper EFI
Holley Hyperspark ignition box
Holley Hyperspark ignition coil
Holley Hyperspark distributor
Nice new MSD 8.5mm wires

Other notables:
Closed Loop Learning is enabled and engaging as expected (all temps, all rpms)
Base Fuel Learning is enabled and engaging as expected (all temps, all rpms)
TPS ROC Blanking is set to 20. I observed jitters (< 15%) in TPS sensor datalogging which were knocking me out of Closed Loop at lower settings.
MAP ROC Blanking is set to 15
Closed Loop and Base Fuel are both set to stock learning limits (+/- 50%)
System is getting clean power from a stand-alone "painless" fuse box (I know, I know - supposed to be direct to battery but nervous running fuse-less)
Was running just fine on a Holley 650 before the Holley Sniper conversion


Right now I have stumbling between idle and 2000 under light/medium acceleration - it's particularly bad between 1200 and 1800.
I've got unsteady running cruising around 1600.
I also have terrible "cold" manners (below 160 degrees) - feels like mixture or timing is way off.
At idle, and above 2,000 and under very hard acceleration it's great.


Question #1:
I've been chasing individual problems, but suspect I have more fundamental issues with the configuration.
I feel like my Target AFRs and/or Timing must be way off base.
I would appreciate eyes on the overall configuration, and feedback on where I may be out of line.

Question #2:
I have been unable to find a full Config or even screenshots of Fuel, Timing or Target AFR tables for a stock 390 FE motor posted anywhere.
For that matter, I can't find a stock timing curve for a standard mechanical distributor for a 390 FE to model against.
Does anyone have one they could share?

[66FAIRLANE]

Your target AFR's are way off. Have you posted the actual config file on the Holley Sniper forum?

I have been running the Sniper on my 390 for a few years and really like it. If you post your config file here or over there so I can open it in the software I can help with your fuel side but I do not control timing so can't be of assistance there. Should be straightforward enough though.

You would almost be better off running the wizard again and picking stock cam. And if you do decide start again put new plugs in it. They will be stuffed.

[My427stang]

I would start by changing to "simple" timing settings, go 15 initial, 40 cruise and 36 at WOT, also may want to consider crank at 15

As far as fuel, I'd also go with simple, vs table, and put idle at 14.0, cruise at 14.5 and WOT at 12.8 or so.

Be sure you resync the TPS using the wizard.

Another comment, are you making changes on the computer and uploading to the ECM, or saving to an SD card.  if saving to the SD card, remember you have to upload to ECM after you put the card in.

Last, Holley is fussy with versions, be sure your firmware and software matches.  Holley makes it tough, the newest Terminator software is V70 but the newest firmware is V50, which don't like each other, but easy to choose the "newest" of both and fight it

[cody50]

It is about a point too rich everywhere on the table.

Cruise timing should be about 8degrees more than WOT. You have cruise lower than WOT right now. If WOT is 35, set Cruise to 43 and try that. You may also want to speed up the timing, bring more in sooner. That really helped mine.

Set crank timing about 3 degrees lower than initial, this is the lowest timing it will order. Having a range of timing available at idle really helps it control idle quality, it's a faster reaction than air or fuel to add or pull a couple degrees to maintain idle speed.

Have you messed around with accel fuel settings at all?

Are you absolutely certain you do not have even the faintest exhaust leak on the side with the O2 sensor. These units are very susceptible to exhaust leaks. It will read oxygen coming in through the leak at idle and part throttle and add fuel to compensate, thinking the engine is lean and it will run terrible. At heavier throttle and engine speed, no air comes into the pipe, so the system gets accurate readings and runs much better.

Hope you figure it out, they are a dream when running well.

[My427stang]

So a follow up,

First, there is no doubt your A/F ratios and ignition timing is dead wrong. I normally don't poke hard like that but that's good news, don't really want to piddle around with slight changes.  Now you can say there is a way to make it better

Second, like on the DualSync in another post, there are some specific setup parameters when you go to the distributor instructions that aren't on the Sniper or Terminator X instructions. 

Here is the link for yours: https://documents.holley.com/199r11525.pdf

What I would do (May even start with a new global file, especially if the system offers you a BBF of any flavor, but even if you start with what you have)

1 - Adjust the air/fuel components so when it fires it behaves

2 - Make sure the ignition is set up, then the timing is correct, then check as they instruct based on adjustment of the inductive delay cell

That should make one heck of a difference, magical even

Now if you are doing this with the Wizard and handheld, spend the money for a USB dongle and use the laptop, it's SOOOO much easier

[Ranch]

It's my understanding that an FE and Sniper don't get along together with trying to control ignition.
With the Snipers CPU in front so close to your distributor there can be some Radio Frequency Interference even though you have a Hall effect it still can be a problem. Holley is aware of this and, to the best of my knowledge, has never really addressed the problem like with some kind of shielding.  A few years back I was thinking about a Sniper and was talking with a couple of tuners and as soon as you mention Ford, they say "no", more trouble than it's worth.  So if you just want to control your A/F you're ok.  Seems a shame not to be able to get the full ability of the Sniper......JMO

[JamesonRacing]

I'm running a Sniper with spark control on my 445, runs great, easy to tune.  Triggering through a locked-out duraspark and analog 6A box.  Set up on the handheld alone.  15-20 degrees idle timing, 38 WOT, 44 cruise.  Newer designed heads would work with less timing at WOT.  12.5-12.8 AFR at WOT, around 14.0 at cruise, higher if your engine likes it, 13.7 idle.  TPS should re-zero every time you switch power.  No EFI issues seen, but I did add an "EFI shield" in front of the ECU just in case.

[drdano]

A friend just finished a sniper, ignition and distributor install on his '61 Falcon with a 5.0 Ford.  He thought he had the dizzy interference issue with the car just dieing intermittently coming to a light to stop and built a metal shield.  After all said and fighting around, it turned out to be a poor ground problem.  Once that was fixed it's been rock solid.

[My427stang]

I did some research last night, for the Sniper alone, not other systems, it does not seem that you have the opportunity to put a custom distributor in like Holley's site says for the distributor

However, do remember that the delay allows you to correct what you command for timing versus what you measure, so worth checking. 

I think what I would do on a generic install, is check TDC with a piston stop or deck bridge during assembly, use the DualSync choice in distributor setup,  then command 20 degrees idle and check it with a light.  If it is wrong, adjust delay one way or another to make it perfect

[rustyhealey]

Thanks everyone - what a huge help. I really appreciate the reality-check.

Quick update: I got an awesome cold start, around town run and highway blast last night. First time since the new Holley.

Overall I spent 4-6 hours with the laptop hooked in over several days trying different settings combinations over countless test drives. I can't thank everyone enough for the great advice and baseline configuration parameters. It really helped to have a solid starting point.

Where I am at the moment:
1. I checked plugs all around. Slightly lean coloring, but not tragic. Noted some melting of the center electrode on all plugs. Running Autolite 45s.
2. I checked tightness of the exhaust at the manifolds. This has been an ongoing problem for me, as I have fixed piping with no flex. These needed snugging up. I need to bite the bullet and get locking nuts on these. @cody50 I suspect this may have been a factor.
3. I reset my Target AFR table to the recommended values. Idle: 13.7, Cruise: 14.0, WOT: 12.8
4. I reset my Timing table. I started with the recommended values, but had to walk them back as I had pinging. I am now at Idle: 15, Cruise: 36, WOT: 31.5
5. I installed a fuel pressure gauge at the inlet to the Holley. I ran the car for an hour with a camera on it and confirmed fuel pressure is solid and I'm not fighting cavitation or some other wacky fuel issue.
6. I spent a lot of time in AE vs TPS ROC and AE Correction vs TPS and got the soft, medium and hard launches behaving nicely.
7. I spent a lot of time in AE TPS vs Coolant Temp, Coolant Temp Enrichment and A/F Ratio Offset and got my Cold Start and Cold Running behavior dialed in.
8. Crank timing is set to 10 degrees @ 500rpm. Still playing with this.
9. I confirmed the distributor and spark box parameters were set correctly in my config.
10. I raised my cold idle. I found it really helped manners between 80-160 degrees to start at 1200rpm and ramp down to 800 (I had been starting at 1000).

I have attached screenshots of key settings as well as a ZIP of my current config.

Questions:

1. Spark plugs. I am concerned about the melty center electrodes. Not sure if I need to look into switching my Autolite 45s out for something capable of higher temps to suit the Holley Hyperspark setup?

2. What feels like "right" seat-of-pants timing in the car is low relative to the group's suggestions.

• My settings: 31.5 WOT, 36 Cruise.
• Suggestions: 35-38 WOT and 40-44 Cruise.
  
• At Cruise and WOT, in broad strokes, I'm 4-8 degrees lower than expected.
• When I go WOT around 200 degrees CTS I get pinging above 32 degrees timing.
• At lower temps (ie, 165-185), I can go WOT at 34 degrees or more (that's as high as I've tested) without noticeable pinging.
• The Holley distributor came with an idiot-resistant indexing tool, which I used during install.

Multi-part question.
I have not commanded the Holley to specific timing settings and checked with my timing light. I obviously need to do that. I wouldn't put it past me to use the alignment tool but still be 4-8 degrees off, but that feels like a lot. My motor is bone stock with a bone stock cam. I just want to be sure the timing I'm seeing is truly low and that I am chasing the right marks?

I know I can use Timing vs Coolant Temp settings in the Holley to adjust timing based on engine temps. Is this a normal thing one has to do with Holley Snipers and FE motors? Any recommendations here? I don't see much in forums about people messing with this.


Thanks all!

[66FAIRLANE]

It seems a little strange that your plugs are lean yet your target AFR's were so rich. Were these fresh plugs with the Sniper install? I would think that a stock 390 should idle closer to 14:1 and cruise closer to 15. Not sure if you are aware but all the AE tables and AF offset tables etc are modifiers of the base fuel table. This is why it is important to have your operating temp base table dialed in close for idle & cruise before messing too much with anything else for if you change this now it effects all other fueling scenarios. Have you been transferring learn to base?

Just as a tip, even if you have inline filters of recommended size installed, after a little running I recommend pulling the sniper regulator and inspecting/cleaning the little screen filter on it.

[My427stang]

If you look at your timing curve, at low vacuum (low KPA numbers) you are reaching total timing too early. 

Also, why is your distributor reference angle 57.5?  Is that where it tells you to set it?  The last one I did was 50, it needs to match.  I didn't change it, but when you set your distributor in and set the cam vs crank lights, that number has to match the balancer exactly

Here is what I would do

1 - Get a piston stop and check TDC
2 - Correct it, and find a perfect 50 degrees TDC to sync distributor (or 57.5 if that is what it told you) whichever number you use, be exact and make sure you correct it in the config file
3 - I don't have time now, but I will build you a config file tonight and you can try it, you need to check those things though

What I need to know is

1 - That reference angle instruction
2 - Fuel pressure
3 - How the motor is built, cam, compression, gears, tranny, etc

It's easy work, and I think there is a lot wrong in your tune.  If you do the checking, I'd say it's worth a try