390 short block ????

[Barry_R]

Be cautious with the "shorten the runner" direction.  Darn traditional FE does not lend itself to that because the center two runners are already rather short while the outer runners are long and aimed the wrong way coming out of the head.  John wanted to "fix that" with my head, but requiring everybody to acquire a round core cam was not real good from a sales volume perspective....

[Joe-JDC]

You are on the wrong forum if you keep bashing the FE, and Jay's adapter.  I have ported all the intakes for a FE over the years, and most every Cleveland intake, small block ford intakes, and even EFI intakes and cut apart EFI plenums and ported them and welded them back together.  A Cleveland Tunnel Ram is not '60s technology by any means, and the cross sectional area promotes good velocity on a larger engines.  A Victor 427 intake will flow over 500 cfm when ported properly, and the RPM 430+cfm, Streetmaster 360+cfm, Street Dominator 370+, Blue Thunder 4V 390+ cfm, Ford Sidewinder 375+cfm, Ford PI 360+ cfm, CJ iron 350+, Ford 6V 340+, 8V MR 430+, 8V Tunnel Wedge 500+, Performer 300+, Blue Thunder 8V 430+, Dove 4V 500+, Motorsports Victor 500+, and Jay's adapter with Cleveland 4V over 500+cfm.  Need I go on???  There are more intakes I have ported over 45 years, but those came to mind for the FE after reading your cutting remarks about the FE.  I like other Ford engines as well as the next guy, but I do not bash the FE, especially on a FE forum.  Not cool!  Joe-JDC

I'm hardly bashing the FE or Jay's adapter. Just stating observations. I'm a non denominational engine builder. I don't see labels and don't have loyalties that blind me to what's at hand. I'm sorry if that offends you. And I've never ported an intake for cfm. Quick way to ruin a good intake.

If you don't port an intake with cfm in consideration, you don't know what you are doing.  Just won EMC with my ported, cfm controlled, modified intake manifold.  Anything else is just leaving horsepower and torque wasted.  Joe-JDC

[scott foxwell]

You are on the wrong forum if you keep bashing the FE, and Jay's adapter.  I have ported all the intakes for a FE over the years, and most every Cleveland intake, small block ford intakes, and even EFI intakes and cut apart EFI plenums and ported them and welded them back together.  A Cleveland Tunnel Ram is not '60s technology by any means, and the cross sectional area promotes good velocity on a larger engines.  A Victor 427 intake will flow over 500 cfm when ported properly, and the RPM 430+cfm, Streetmaster 360+cfm, Street Dominator 370+, Blue Thunder 4V 390+ cfm, Ford Sidewinder 375+cfm, Ford PI 360+ cfm, CJ iron 350+, Ford 6V 340+, 8V MR 430+, 8V Tunnel Wedge 500+, Performer 300+, Blue Thunder 8V 430+, Dove 4V 500+, Motorsports Victor 500+, and Jay's adapter with Cleveland 4V over 500+cfm.  Need I go on???  There are more intakes I have ported over 45 years, but those came to mind for the FE after reading your cutting remarks about the FE.  I like other Ford engines as well as the next guy, but I do not bash the FE, especially on a FE forum.  Not cool!  Joe-JDC

I'm hardly bashing the FE or Jay's adapter. Just stating observations. I'm a non denominational engine builder. I don't see labels and don't have loyalties that blind me to what's at hand. I'm sorry if that offends you. And I've never ported an intake for cfm. Quick way to ruin a good intake.

If you don't port an intake with cfm in consideration, you don't know what you are doing.  Just won EMC with my ported, cfm controlled, modified intake manifold.  Anything else is just leaving horsepower and torque wasted.  Joe-JDC

LOL... really? Congratulations and good for you, but I don't consider EMC as the holy grail of engine performance.
You might want to do a little research on what I do, and what I've done before you start making stupid statements like that. I will never tell someone else they don't know what they're doing. There are WAY too many ways to skin this cat.
When you're ready to learn something, let me know.

[scott foxwell]

Be cautious with the "shorten the runner" direction.  Darn traditional FE does not lend itself to that because the center two runners are already rather short while the outer runners are long and aimed the wrong way coming out of the head.  John wanted to "fix that" with my head, but requiring everybody to acquire a round core cam was not real good from a sales volume perspective....

I think you know me well enough to know I'm not just going to arbitrarily shorten runners. But thanks for the heads up. It's kinda like the R07 head, only backwards.
I know a guy that knows a guy that does cams...

[Joe-JDC]

I did not call you ignorant or stupid, I said you don't know what you are doing.  If you don't know the cfm or velocity of an intake manifold runner, you are just guessing at making something work.   EMC might not be the "holy grail" but it sets the bar high and it takes a lot of talent to win or place in the competition.  As for learning something, I have an automotive degree, taught automotive in Jr College, have an aircraft degree, and a master instructor rating when I was in the USAF.  Been a loyal Ford owner since 1962, raced Fords since 1969, and have ported heads and intakes for a Factory racing team as well as independently for over 45 years.  My heads and intakes have been featured in several magazine articles since 1988, and at 71 years young I still think I can still teach a few things to those who will listen.  Joe-JDC

[scott foxwell]

I did not call you ignorant or stupid, I said you don't know what you are doing.  If you don't know the cfm or velocity of an intake manifold runner, you are just guessing at making something work.   EMC might not be the "holy grail" but it sets the bar high and it takes a lot of talent to win or place in the competition.  As for learning something, I have an automotive degree, taught automotive in Jr College, have an aircraft degree, and a master instructor rating when I was in the USAF.  Been a loyal Ford owner since 1962, raced Fords since 1969, and have ported heads and intakes for a Factory racing team as well as independently for over 45 years.  My heads and intakes have been featured in several magazine articles since 1988, and at 71 years young I still think I can still teach a few things to those who will listen.  Joe-JDC

Ahhh, but I DO know the velocity and that's all I care about with the intake. CFM is what it is. The engine will get it's air, and at a lot more than a 28" depression. Port an intake to a specific velocity profile and you'll make more power. I promise- I'm not guessing on this.
As far as the rest of the stuff, meh, I can say most of the same thing but it's really irrelevant. I'm not going to get into a pissing/bragging contest with you other than to say I have plenty of the same credentials.
You sound like you're done learning and that's too bad...but you are kinda old...
(lighten up Francis, I'm just kidding) 

[FElony]

... I'm not going to get into a pissing/bragging contest with you...

Too late, asshole.

[jayb]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's maintain a CIVIL tone, please...

[garyv]

Interesting discussion and we may all learn something here if everyone can put their ego's aside.
There are some pretty smart guys that hang out here and all have something to contribute.
Stay tuned for the next go round. 
Jay you da referee.

garyv

[George vega]

I dont know how this post wound up like this but i want to point out a couple of other things on my build
 While doing the oil mods I couldn't find any restriction st the rear of the main oil gallery to drill out. The passage from the filter adapter to the main was already 7/16. Is that common? And just to keep the conversation gping, I read an article that used Allen wrenches in between cylinders to gauge the thickness of the cylinders. I did this check and the result was that the block can be bored to 4.180 max. Of course a sonic check to verify is always a good idea. I plan to only take off minimum material to make sure the cylinders are roumd.

[Barry_R]

Similar to Ford casting numbers - use the drill bit test as a "disqualifier" rather than as a max bore defining tool.  If a block does not "pass" the drill bit test you know that it's not a real 428, or not a good candidate for other stuff.  It tells you about the outside of the cylinder core, but does not tell you anything about the relative position of the inside of that core/bore.

[scott foxwell]

... I'm not going to get into a pissing/bragging contest with you...

Too late, asshole.

LOL...nice.

[scott foxwell]

Similar to Ford casting numbers - use the drill bit test as a "disqualifier" rather than as a max bore defining tool.  If a block does not "pass" the drill bit test you know that it's not a real 428, or not a good candidate for other stuff.  It tells you about the outside of the cylinder core, but does not tell you anything about the relative position of the inside of that core/bore.

That's a good point.

[scott foxwell]

 

As all of us have tried to subtly point out, a 650+ hp small inch FE on lower compression with a hydraulic roller will be extremely challenging but short of offering up secrets, all of us will try to help out.  My first attempt at helping was PM'ing you about ditching those Icon pistons and using something more modern. 

The hydraulic roller camshaft will be a hurdle for you and if Straub doesn't have a lot of experience with FE's and hydraulic rollers, feel free to pipe up here.  It takes the correct combination of lobe shapes, lifter tweaks, valve springs, valve/retainer weight, and even rocker arm weight to get them to pull any rpms at all past 6000.   You can't just throw in a lobe that has worked for another engine family and expect it to fly.

I appreciate the offer but I'm going to point out that the Icon piston is an excellent piston and has all the modern features as anything Racetec will make, except for the ring pack. I think the Icon is one of the very best values on the market for a fully featured 2618 SHELF piston and they have way more offerings than most manufacturers. My firs choice would be Mahle, but they don't offer the bore and compression ht I want. I'm gong to definitely take you up on the offer. Thanks for that.
Now, I'm really curious as to what's so "special" about the FE when it comes to hyd. rollers so anything you're willing to offer, I'm all ears. I build hyd. roller valve train to run 8K rpm with BIG stainless valves, BIG (BB Chevy) stud mount rocker arms, compound pushrod and lifter angles and heavy .903 dia. lifters. Currently we are using >.700" (at the valve) solid roller lobes with our .903 hyd. rollers and ~260 on the seat, 650 open 1.550" springs. With the FE I see straight lifter and pushrod angles, shaft rockers, relatively light, steel rocker arms (or aluminum for aftermarket stuff) and a lighter, overall better valve train. I do see long pushrods and I haven't spent much time looking at the cam cores yet. The Morel hyd. roller lifters available for the FE are good. I don't know if I'll use a .903 on my build or not. I have some ideas there. As far as Straub's experience with the FE... not sure how much I'm allowed to say but suffice to say it's plenty. Hyd rollers, I'm not sure. I'll have to see what he says about that. Thanks again for anything you have to offer.

[My427stang]

Hard to make room for the diameter pushrod I'd run on Rat for one, but I'd expect the rockers to be at least as stable as a Rat with good girdles

After that, the solid flat tappet guy doesn't have much more to say about hyd rollers