BBM blocks

[mmason]

According to their BBM website, the aluminum blocks will be coming in January and the cast blocks will be coming soon.

[turbohunter]

I just talked to Doug and that's what he's told me.
He also said the demand is serious so if you want/need one call him.

[cammerfe]

'Casting' is a process of pouring a liquid into a mold and, in the case of hot metals, letting it cool and solidify. Either an aluminum or iron block would be 'cast'.   

KS

[mmason]

Yes, I saw my mistake earlier but did not correct it because I figured you would know what I meant.

[4twennyAint]

Yep.  I was suddenly confused, and briefly had hopes for a cast, titanium block.  Lets go billet steel for Christmas.

[BigBlockFE]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

[ScotiaFE]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

My advise is get in the Q if you are serious, they will sell out pretty fast when ever they hit the store.
They always do.
The FE is an ever expanding Hot Rod Engine market with a limited and shrinking block supply.

[Barry_R]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

I have built one for a customer.  He told me it was "one of one" but I have subsequently heard that there were a couple more out there.  It seemed to be a perfectly fine part.  This one had a bunch of Dove high riser parts up top and made +/-640HP

[turbohunter]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

I've seen two prototypes. They're nice.

[BigBlockFE]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

I have built one for a customer.  He told me it was "one of one" but I have subsequently heard that there were a couple more out there.  It seemed to be a perfectly fine part.  This one had a bunch of Dove high riser parts up top and made +/-640HP

How did it compare to a pond looks wise. Are there any differences between the 2.

[ScotiaFE]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

I have built one for a customer.  He told me it was "one of one" but I have subsequently heard that there were a couple more out there.  It seemed to be a perfectly fine part.  This one had a bunch of Dove high riser parts up top and made +/-640HP

How did it compare to a pond looks wise. Are there any differences between the 2.

Maybe you ask your bud Kirkham to whittle you one out. 

[BigBlockFE]

Has anyone ever seen the BBM aluminum block in person. Is this release date in January going to be the first run of blocks??  I know the other block brands changed foundries due to lack of quality. Being the first ones I wonder how good they are.

I have built one for a customer.  He told me it was "one of one" but I have subsequently heard that there were a couple more out there.  It seemed to be a perfectly fine part.  This one had a bunch of Dove high riser parts up top and made +/-640HP

How did it compare to a pond looks wise. Are there any differences between the 2.

Maybe you ask your bud Kirkham to whittle you one out. 

They won't. Too busy with other projects. And they had a issue with Dart copyright stuff

[bn69stang]

There blocks are a very nice piece , so nice in fact my wife said to buy one and put it in the living room , put a glass on top for a hot rod coffee table ...Bud

[Stangman]

She sounds like a keeper

[Drew Pojedinec]

She sounds like a keeper

pfft, she sounds like she needs a 352 block painted to look aluminum.

[Stangman]

Ha Ha true

[bn69stang]

All kidding aside , the BBM block is a very nice piece , have a set of there heads , nice as well .. Have seen the alum block - very nice , and from the machine shop side ....BBM block cleaner casting than the pond , less clean up , but i would take any of the new 427 blocks .. Bud

[ACHiPo]

I've also talked to Doug and he says iron blocks will be available at the end of December.  I don't need one for several months, and when I asked how often they make a casting run he got cagey.  How's BBM's track record of hitting commitments?

[ScotiaFE]

I just read BBM is shipping iron blocks right now.
I suggest you get in the Q if you have money. I don't.

[ACHiPo]

I just read BBM is shipping iron blocks right now.
I suggest you get in the Q if you have money. I don't.

That's strange, as Doug clearly said they would ship at the end of the month, not that he had them now.  I asked him when he plans to make the next run and he said, "It depends at that time".  Are these cast to order?

[jayb]

I haven't dealt directly with BBM, but my observations are that they probably deal with the same foundry delays and cash flow issues as anybody else in the FE business.  Speaking from personal experience with my intake adapter castings, sometimes the foundry will promise delivery in 6-8 weeks and take much longer; this delayed my initial batch of intake adapters by a total of nine months a couple of years ago. 

One observations specific to BBM is that when they first got going on the block and head project, on the FE Forum Doug criticized many other FE manufacturers (like Blue Thunder, for instance) for not having the parts available for purchase.  He claimed the FE world "deserved" to have the parts available all the time, and BBM was going to be sure that happened.  Yet they have consistently run out of blocks and heads, leaving people waiting for months at a time.  I'm sure the realities of short-run manufacturing and cash flow management have hurt them, but to make a promise like that and then leave people waiting is hypocritical and not good business, in my opinion.

By most accounts the products are high quality, so if you need them, as Howie says, get in the queue and hope for a near term delivery...

[ScotiaFE]

I just read BBM is shipping iron blocks right now.
I suggest you get in the Q if you have money. I don't.

That's strange, as Doug clearly said they would ship at the end of the month, not that he had them now.  I asked him when he plans to make the next run and he said, "It depends at that time".  Are these cast to order?

That's what I read on the FordFE.com.
I know that waiting for the exact right moment for you and expecting
the part to be there, may not work out.
At the release of the Genesis 427 block I told myself I would get one.
I was lucky enough to buy one of the last ones made.
There will never be another Genesis 427 so they are all vintage now.
One day they will not make BBM blocks just like Ford does not make 427 Sideoiler blocks anymore.
People and companies move on.
I have not used my Geny yet, but I am close.
I know if I did not have one I would always want one even though they don't make them.
It was the awesome in it's day, and in high demand.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1481591821/last-1481680666/View+Thread

image hosting over 5mb

[ACHiPo]

I just read BBM is shipping iron blocks right now.
I suggest you get in the Q if you have money. I don't.

That's strange, as Doug clearly said they would ship at the end of the month, not that he had them now.  I asked him when he plans to make the next run and he said, "It depends at that time".  Are these cast to order?

That's what I read on the FordFE.com.
I know that waiting for the exact right moment for you and expecting
the part to be there, may not work out.
At the release of the Genesis 427 block I told myself I would get one.
I was lucky enough to buy one of the last ones made.
There will never be another Genesis 427 so they are all vintage now.
One day they will not make BBM blocks just like Ford does not make 427 Sideoiler blocks anymore.
People and companies move on.

Interesting that I also read that Genesis Sideoiler Garage iron blocks were expected "in a month".  I've sent Doug a note to get in queue for a BBM.  Not sure how I'm going to take delivery, as I will need lift-gate and not sure that BBM offers that.

[Katz427]

To get in the "Q" I paid up front for the block. They were to ship around the 14th of Nov. It takes a container ship about 17 days to make the trip across the Pacific. Then you wait your turn to unload. I have not been notified yet. I am thinking about 2 more weeks. One thing is that container ships only leave port when full. Traffic has been way down so it takes longer to get a firm shipping date. Or so I am told.

[Joe-JDC]

Personally, I don't think it is right to pay ahead of time for something that is not ready to sell.  I had to do that for the tunnel wedge, and I had some harsh words spoken to me about my questioning the whole situation.  I also have a question if it is legal to require a pre-payment for something that is not readily available.  The quality is good, but is sure makes it seem that a business is working on credit when they require a prepaid order.  Be careful how you spend your hard earned credit.  Joe-JDC

[bill_396]

Probably my post on other site. I had also paid in full in advance, memory isn't that good but guessing it was August or before.
I had happened to follow-up this week and was told a shipment was in the country. My opinion only is that it is not a big group
like when they were initially released. Was contacted a few days ago to confirm shipping details and paid for that part of it then.
Was told block was in route yesterday. Doug did call with the carrier reference number, should expect it at the depot in Michigan on the 19th.

[ScotiaFE]

Interesting that I also read that Genesis Sideoiler Garage iron blocks were expected "in a month".  I've sent Doug a note to get in queue for a BBM.  Not sure how I'm going to take delivery, as I will need lift-gate and not sure that BBM offers that.

The Sideoiler Garage block is what remains of the Genesis.
An even better block than the original Genesis block.
The Genesis block evolved over the few years it was made.
Much better caps at the end.
The BBM block has better caps than an old Genesis. A lot were converted to Pro Grams.
Mine has steel caps but are not pinned.
BBM's are pinned and the SOG and Pond.

[jayb]

Personally, I don't think it is right to pay ahead of time for something that is not ready to sell.  I had to do that for the tunnel wedge, and I had some harsh words spoken to me about my questioning the whole situation.  I also have a question if it is legal to require a pre-payment for something that is not readily available.  The quality is good, but is sure makes it seem that a business is working on credit when they require a prepaid order.  Be careful how you spend your hard earned credit.  Joe-JDC

I agree wholeheartedly, Joe, and certainly for my products I will take orders up front, but no money.  However, the flip side is on a high dollar item like a block, even a small production run of 50 is going to run into some serious money, well over $100K for production costs.  I don't know what kind of credit arrangement BBM has, but if he has to pay for the parts when they ship, like most of us, that is a big chunk of cash to kick out at once, so its a little easier to see where a payment in advance may be required.  Of course, the whole Genesis debacle, the Coon SOHC heads, etc., tend to make a lot of us think twice about paying in advance...

[fekbmax]

Who and where is side oiler garage ?
How can you even get in touch with them ?
Maybe they cater to just certain builders or something ?

[jayb]

Sideoiler Garage sells primarily through Barry R at Survival Motorsports.  I had dinner with Barry at the PRI show, and he says they are behind schedule on their next batch of blocks.  I don't have any details; contact Barry for more info.

[Heo]

That's why it was such a pleassure to buy from you Jay
Payment when the parts was shipped, and premium
quality parts. No waiting for months after you paid
and getting strange excuses
other times i often feel like i get those
parts with defects and blemishes because it is more trouble
to send it back from Sweden than fixing it 

[ScotiaFE]

Might want to call Survival, they show it on there web site.
Awesome looking stuff if you can get it, just like BBM.
I have BBM heads and they are great stuff. I'd buy one of everything they make.
If I had some money.

It's all great stuff.
There was a time when it was little aftermarket support.
Valves covers and a few intakes.
Remember the 80's and 90's.
Now people complain because their build is behind because they can't
get a block. WTF over!

[jayb]

That's why it was such a pleassure to buy from you Jay
Payment when the parts was shipped, and premium
quality parts. No waiting for months after you paid
and getting strange excuses
other times i often feel like i get those
parts with defects and blemishes because it is more trouble
to send it back from Sweden than fixing it 

Thanks Heo, I appreciate the kind words - Jay

[ACHiPo]

Well, I am in the queue.  I called Doug and got a better understanding of the situation.  He has a large number of castings (the batch process I was worried about).  He's been having problems getting CNC capacity (a more manageable problem).  Regardless I felt it was better to have a bird in the hand (and my engine builder will store it until he's ready to start the build).  More blocks arrive today and will start shipping tomorrow, although it will be a day or more before he gets mine out (good news for Katz and Bill as I'm sure theirs will go out before mine).
 

[cammerfe]

Yep.  I was suddenly confused, and briefly had hopes for a cast, titanium block.  Lets go billet steel for Christmas.

What we're doing, at least for most of us, is attempting to communicate. If I must guess at what a post-er means, the communication process is damaged.

Billet steel is unlikely to have started as a casting.

KS

[BigBlockFE]

Personally, I don't think it is right to pay ahead of time for something that is not ready to sell.  I had to do that for the tunnel wedge, and I had some harsh words spoken to me about my questioning the whole situation.  I also have a question if it is legal to require a pre-payment for something that is not readily available.  The quality is good, but is sure makes it seem that a business is working on credit when they require a prepaid order.  Be careful how you spend your hard earned credit.  Joe-JDC

I agree. No money in advance. Shelby, pond, don't ask for money in advance. BBM. What a joke.

[ACHiPo]

Personally, I don't think it is right to pay ahead of time for something that is not ready to sell.  I had to do that for the tunnel wedge, and I had some harsh words spoken to me about my questioning the whole situation.  I also have a question if it is legal to require a pre-payment for something that is not readily available.  The quality is good, but is sure makes it seem that a business is working on credit when they require a prepaid order.  Be careful how you spend your hard earned credit.  Joe-JDC

I agree. No money in advance. Shelby, pond, don't ask for money in advance. BBM. What a joke.

I was not asked to pay in advance.  Just a single data point.  If it doesn't ship or arrive as communicated, I'll give an update, but for now I'm impressed with my interactions with Doug at BBM.

[Katz427]

After a year wait and looking at blocks already at .030 -.040 over and asking $3k I am more than happy to get a block from anybody. This is what happens when you love "old iron" ! So few foundries left in the USA and the ones that are running are usually pretty busy. The old supply chain ain't what it use to be !

[turbohunter]

May I inject a little stability into the conversation?
Let me start by saying, all I care about is parts for me to have fun with in my chosen hobby. Also I have the deepest respect for all the parts makers/inventors and craftsmen that contribute to this forum. I am not a part of BBM though I have bought from them and supplied parts to measure as well as gaskets for a build. I find Doug to be a straight up guy. I do think there are communication problems with him sometimes that are cultural in nature (as alluded to by Mr. Crane saying he was talked to with harsh words). He is also very proud of what he is doing.
There are companies out there that provide FE products to customers that have paid BBM up front for large numbers of blocks to be shipped to them. Us hobbyists only need one at a time yet we are receiving blocks also.
He has also told me that people are insisting he take a credit card number or money in advance to secure a block or a part.
He has stated to me that he does not need the money up front, however demand is high. Read into that what you will.
Statements like this;
"Shelby, pond, don't ask for money in advance. BBM. What a joke." belong on another forum. Shelby and Pond don't have blocks to sell.
Let's not get carried away like other forums and let's concentrate on FE parts and builds. If you have a problem with BBM call them and hash it out.

[BigBlockFE]

I've had terrible interactions with Doug at BBM   From now on I'll just buy from the vendors I've dealt with in the past. Edlebrock, Shelby, pond. That's just me.

[BigBlockFE]

I have talked to Doug about it. I washed my hands with them.  Now I'm done   

[turbohunter]

All good brother.
Respect you for digging' FEs

[ACHiPo]

Just got the way bill number from Doug.  My block is en route to the builder a day before he said it would be.  Bonus points in my book.  Let's just hope the quality, etc. is as good as I've read and I'll be a happy customer!

[jayb]

Post some pictures when you get the block!

[ACHiPo]

Post some pictures when you get the block!

I'd love to.  Unfortunately for documentation (but fortunately for the probability of a good motor) it's not coming to me, but rather to my engine builder, which is ~3000 miles away on the east coast.

I'm trying to figure out a time to get back to meet with my engine builder and other folks involved with my car.  When I do I plan to take lots of pics.

[Katz427]

My block should be in the frozen north by end of next week. If I remember correctly the cam bearings are all the same OD for the BBM block. My budget for this project is already behind but it seems that is the rule with old (or new) cars. At least the engine can move forward.

[cjshaker]

Mine has steel caps but are not pinned.
BBM's are pinned and the SOG and Pond.

SOG blocks are not pinned on the caps. I have one, or more accurately, Blair has it right now. They are not perfect, but it's a nice block with just a little work. It could probably handle 900+/- easily, with good machine work.

Keith, do a search on the forum. I posted a bunch of pictures when I got it. Try "Sideoiler Garage Block" in the search.

[cjshaker]

The search didn't work for me so I went back through my posts. Here's the post I did on the SOG block.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1483.msg13054#msg13054

[bn69stang]

what are the BBM blocks rated for hp wise Doug ?

[cjshaker]

what are the BBM blocks rated for hp wise Doug ?

I don't think any of them are rated for HP, per se, but as far as being able to handle horsepower, I think they would be pretty much the same. They both have very similar qualities and improvements for strength. In my opinion, and it's just MY opinion, the only real advantage the BBM block has is it's initial machining quality and casting is slightly better. That kind of gets washed out though because both blocks will require a complete going through if you really want to throw some big power at them. There are still a lot of Genesis blocks out there that are producing big power numbers, and have been for many years now. There was one recent build that Thor (XR7) had a major hand in that was around the 900+hp mark if I remember correctly. That block had been raced for several years already with a little lower power output, but still pretty darned healthy.

When the last short, limited run became available, I jumped and got one as fast as I could. Nobody knew about BBM then because they hadn't even appeared on the scene, so at the time it was the only option, as I saw it. BBM appeared shortly after that. In the end though, it won't matter much because SOG blocks are just not being produced, and it doesn't appear that they will be again anytime soon.

[ScotiaFE]

Mine has steel caps but are not pinned.
BBM's are pinned and the SOG and Pond.

SOG blocks are not pinned on the caps. I have one, or more accurately, Blair has it right now. They are not perfect, but it's a nice block with just a little work. It could probably handle 900+/- easily, with good machine work.

Keith, do a search on the forum. I posted a bunch of pictures when I got it. Try "Sideoiler Garage Block" in the search.

Oh my mistake I thought I had seen that on a SOG block.
Might have been the alum's I seen a picture of.
Oh Ya any one of these blocks are excellent foundations for a 1000HP attempt.
Still a really kool block and a great foundation for your Hot Rod.
Ever find a kool gear box for it. 

[XR7]

"There was one recent build that Thor (XR7) had a major hand in that was around the 900+hp mark if I remember correctly. That block had been raced for several years already with a little lower power output, but still pretty darned healthy."

Correction on that Doug! Your short changing it! LOL. The build you mentioned I was involved with made 1087HP@8200. It has always been over 900 and on the first build it made 919 and then on freshen up made 909. I changed the entire top end and only changed the timing belt on the shortblock, otherwise same as when it made 909.

It is a Genesis iron block with 4.376 bore and 4.125 stroke for 496CI.

[cjshaker]

Sorry about that, Thor. I have the build thread saved but didn't refer to it. I should have, because it deserves the recognition. It really is a fantastic build and shows the potential of the blocks. As far as I'm aware, it's the first wedge head FE over 1000hp NA, not counting the billet head builds of Kuntz. Congrats on a very nice engine!

[XR7]

No problem Doug, I know you meant well! It's all good. I do know there have been a few other "cast".. in-line, wedge FE 's over 1000HP. Not sure how many, likley count on one hand, but Kuntz has done some ED Pro Port builds like that. I think the first one was just over the 1K mark, thought I heard that one was around 1040, but again, no idea on exact numbers. It would be interesting to hear some facts on that, not just rumors. Also I would think that some guys want to keep #'s secret and not post them up on the web, so there sure could be more out there.

Kuntz did one billet canted valve engine N/A that made 1112, but was said to have more in it. The only other billet/canted head build was a twin turbo build and has never been finished (yet) to my knowledge, I heard this just recently. He was the guy that funded the project to begin with, Ed Lavender. It was to be for Pro Nostalgia and by the time it was ready (5 years development, around 2010), the class was no more, so he decided to switch the build from N/A to twin turbos and FI for 10.5 racing, has been a lot of changes since then it that class as well.

[ACHiPo]

My iron BBM block was delivered by YRC freight to my engine builder Wed., which was a couple days earlier than they anticipated.  Quite impressive to ship from LA to CT in 6 days.  Another positive for Doug and BBM.

Wish I was there to open it up and take pictures/measurements!

[Joe-JDC]

When I bought my Shelby aluminum FE block, they were advertised as capable of handling 1500 hp.  Apparently some of them were built with blowers for testing.  Anyway, I don't plan on adding a blower to mine.  Joe-JDC

[fekbmax]

I can't wait to see what one of those FE POWER  .net  blocks look like .. 

[bn69stang]

yeah thats what im say ng , we need blocks for christmas Jay ..

[jayb]

Unfortunately I have no control of the block situation, but I will pass on your wishes to the block guy...

[bn69stang]

It was worth a try jay , best wishes to you and your family .. Bud

[mmason]

This is what you see when you get your BBM block.

[XR7]

Looks good! I heard they made 3 improvements to the new batch of blocks, do you know what they are? I think one was to beef up around the lifter bores, more like a solid "bar" across the valley, like the Genesis blocks are. That way you can do oversize lifter bores and/or bushings, also dog-bone or key-way lifter would be possible now.

Can you take a picture of the valley once you get it out of the crate and post it please? More pictures! Also can you see what the other two update/changes might be?

Thanks.

[mmason]

This is the paper work that came with it. I will send more pictures when I get them and also about any improvements that I can find out about.

[XR7]

Thanks for that, but all of this is on the website. I was talking about 3 new improvements that were made on the second run of blocks, versus the first run (all of that list is for the first run). I was just curious, I can call Doug at BBM to find out for sure, if I get a chance. I did hear that the lifter bore area was beefed up, that is one of the 3 changes, don't know what the others are!

[mmason]

[XR7]

Thanks for the pictures, but from the valley side, it doesn't appear they changed it. Bummer...

Here is a Genesis valley showing the "block" lifter bore bars...

[XR7]

Just to avoid confusion... MMason, is this block you are taking pictures of received out of the "new batch" just recently, or a block you purchased some time ago from the first batch that sold out?

[mmason]

I just received it so l have to assume it is from the new batch.

[XR7]

OK, yeah I would assume the same thing!

[mmason]

Just a thought, maybe the upgrades were for the aluminum block.

[ACHiPo]

Very nice looking cast iron!

[bn69stang]

The BBM block looks like a really clean , a very nice casting in IMO ..Bud