Author Topic: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..  (Read 49806 times)

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bn69stang

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Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« on: March 30, 2014, 08:54:55 AM »
Would it be money wisely spent to purchase the survival heads , and go for some modern enhancements , or modify stock edelbrock heads ? . Has anyone made this change , or in the process of either ?.. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

fe66comet

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 10:46:03 AM »
I spent a lot of money to get my Edelbrock heads to the same level as the Felony. I have yet to do the race 350 CFM CNC port job but in the end I will find myself at the same place.

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 10:59:12 AM »
Yeah im thinking just go with the felony heads at this point , it s probably better in the long run and sell the eds and get some money back and put it towards a stroker kit from Barry as well .. Thanks Jon for the advice . Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

Joe-JDC

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 03:16:39 PM »
The RPM heads stock flow in the 260-270cfm range at most camshaft lifts, and the Survival head flows 280ish as cast, and with deburring, 300cfm @ .700" with a 2.200 intake valve.  A CNC ported Stage II head from Keith Craft flows 335-338cfm for $2500.00 complete with a 2.190 intake valve and H-Roller springs.  Not trying to start a war, just some facts.  A full port and polish will cost about $600-800 on either head.  I have hand ported both, and when fully ported they both will flow 335-340cfm with excellent results.  There is more with larger valves, but the block will determine which head is preferable.  For anything less than 4.165" I would suggest the Edelbrocks, but price and availability, and other services needed would be my deciding factor.  If you need other things from Barry, then use him, I do, and would.  Joe-JDC

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 04:34:17 PM »
Thanks for the info Joe , and my current bore is 4.17 and my other block that is going to be stroked to 463 inchs would be 4.165 inch bore . And i dont want to spend more money than necessary , but i want the best bang for my dollar .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 07:55:57 PM »
Joe
Do you have port/runner volumes on the KC Stage II heads.
There is some value in that....

Joe-JDC

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 09:20:31 PM »
I still have a set here that I can check.  Will let you know.  I like your heads--especially the exhausts and chamber shape, just wish it were a tad smaller in diameter.  I still like the smaller chamber for the small bores.  JMO, but now with several options, it all comes down to service, quality, integrity, and lastly, cost.  You still get my business whenever possible.  I will have to say it is easier to get 310cfm from your head than the Edelbrocks, and for a full on porting, your head will be a few cfm ahead, also.   Joe-JDC 

Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 05:50:58 AM »
Curious to hear what they come up with.  CFM by itself is definitely not the entire story.  I can tell you that the CNC program we have run through a few pair of my castings will go 369 cfm at reasonable/achievable race valve lifts - that's a fair amount more than I can get out of unwelded Edelbrock castings.

I have been pretty quiet lately on the forums because I've focused on getting shop work - where we are way behind - moving out the door. 


sumfoo1

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 09:32:30 AM »
Barry, do you still use your own head's even on the wildest builds or do you go to a dove high rise or something?


I'm just wondering.

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 02:48:32 PM »
So am i in the ballpark in say ng that going from a 72 cc chamber to a 76 cc chamber i would loose about a 1/2 point in compression on a 4.17 inch bore ? ..Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 05:09:46 PM »
I currently use my heads on most stuff - but not all.  On a street oriented build between 500 and 600 horsepower they are working very well for us as cast with a good valve job and a bowl blend.  The lowest powered 445 with them so far made 497HP, and the highest powered engine so far (not counting the CNC ported version on my EMC engine) was a 527 at 624 horsepower.

The CNC ported version made 711 HP at the Engine Masters Challenge - more to come on that at a later time.

The Blue Thunder heads are better for a true race engine - using the eight fasteners for T&D rockers, and taking advantage of the raised exhaust port.  The BT medium riser has a very large cast port that is most appropriate only in large displacement engines - where it works pretty well.  The Blue Thunder high riser heads are the basis for our highest horsepower race builds.  We've only been a bit over 800HP with then here, but at least one customer has the same heads at over 900...

Joe-JDC

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2014, 01:11:50 PM »
CC'd a KCII intake port today, and it came in at 195.6ccs, flows 338/238 @ .750" with a 2.190/1.745" valve without an exhaust pipe extention.  Flowed on 4.250" bore fixture @ 28".   Joe-JDC

HolmanMoodyStroppeVet

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2014, 06:29:13 PM »
I think we should discuss your goal, and intended use too. Are you racing in a class, or bracket racing maybe, street cruising?

I think the Survival head is wonderful for many builds, and have urged guys to use them for many projects for several reasons, the better chamber,ports and quality is nice.  The ED head may need welding if you try to change some features, you can get the raw heads and make it a race piece, if you need every advantage like a Super Stocker with real high compression, a tunnel and so on.

I also like that the Survival head is made in America, with certified Alcoa aluminum, heat treated right, and finish machined in Michigan where it all began. Barry has really helped the FE brethren a lot, so send him an call

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 06:44:59 PM »
I have a set of stock eds on my 434 inch 428 , but after reading Barry s book , And Jay s book and having a motor in in the 430 ish h p range , i am upgrading to a hyd roller and a bigger carb , and either modify ng my ed s or buying a set of Barry s heads . I intend on building a stroker of either 463 inchs or maybe  even a 482 with a block purchase and want a set of heads that will work on both .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

ScotiaFE

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 06:53:25 PM »
The biggest gain with your stock Ed's will be a valve job.
Change out the stock Ed valves and go to a 2.1ish intake and use a 45* seat.


HolmanMoodyStroppeVet

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 08:29:50 PM »
Sounds fun Bud

I am doing block upgrades on some past projects too and have 2 new Shelby blocks if anybody wants one.  I bought 3 for a Fuel effort, the team lost funding and the car went to a late model, easier, cheaper sadly. Sold all 3 to a really fast friend here, and said, what the heck, got 3 more....LOL   To build.  Built 1,, have 2 and can get more close by, through a dealer. They are tough and pretty. My favorite if the build has the budget.

Your Ed heads will be easy to sell should you decide to get the Survival heads.  I realy like those a lot.

And they are cast by Edelbrock, he told us, under contract from his design, patterns and related stuff, which is a big plus to me. I know and trust Ed since way back.  We did R&D for them back when.  Intake development/dyno/race tests. for a given race task , on FE's. Pre release stuff. Lots of fun.

I also would not rule out building a High Riser some day.

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2014, 04:58:21 PM »
Thanks for the info , and help with idea s and would love to build a high riser at some point or a cammer . 480 -500 inch range , just think of popping the hood on a 1969 mach 1 and see ng a sohc motor  :) .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

BH107

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2014, 05:16:42 PM »
Thanks for the info , and help with idea s and would love to build a high riser at some point or a cammer . 480 -500 inch range , just think of popping the hood on a 1969 mach 1 and see ng a sohc motor  :) .. Bud

How about popping the hood of a REAL BOSS 429 only to find a SOHC 427 in its place!


bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2014, 05:41:58 PM »
Yes that is awesome i have to say ,
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

ScotiaFE

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2014, 06:15:05 PM »
The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

LuxurySportCoupe

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2014, 08:06:34 PM »
The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

For "box stock ported" heads, they only outflow Barry's as cast heads by 3 cfm at .600". With a minor port work, the Felony head will own the BBM head. I'd rather buy American anyway.

1964 Galaxie 390 cruise-o-matic. 445 and C6 coming soon.

Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2014, 09:09:12 PM »
This did not post clearly from the spreadsheet - but should at least give some information for my heads versus the Korean ones.
The data is not directly comparable given variances in benches, geography, prep and such.  But it is still directionally useful.

The first column is from Joe's SF600 when he initially tested the first pair of my castings
The second column is mine - using a local SF1020 bench
The third column is mine using a local SF600 bench
The fourth column is Rob's data from the Korean head on a SF600 bench 

Intake   Survival JDC SF600   Survival SF1020   Survival SF600   BBM per McQuarie
.100   65   62      74
.200   135   139   148   147
.300   197   207   209   211
.400   251   251   255   251
.500   268   268   279   284
.600   284   285   282   285
.700   294   292   289   292
            
Exhaust            
.100   54   46      53
.200   103   99   107   108
.300   142   142   148   149
.400   175   177   185   183
.500   186   200   200   211
.600   193   205   206   
.700   198   206   209   224

Based upon this the heads would appear to be reasonably competitive in terms of flow.

Joe-JDC

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2014, 11:06:02 PM »
I know Barry's heads can go over 350cfm with hand porting, and with larger valves, the 369cfm is certainly within reason.  I was able to get over 260cfm on the exhaust without a tube, and I am still working on the ports on my heads.  I never intended to start a contest between fellow builders, just tried to answer a simple question.  The Edelbrock heads are tricky to get to flow over 330cfm, and if you make a simple/small mistake, they cannot be simply tweaked to regain the flow without welding metal back.  Edelbrock casting techniques are excellent as far as porosity and density across the board.  I have ported several sets of Edelbrock heads for other style engines, and always found the castings solid.  With the exception of a few seats standing proud on other heads, the Edelbrock castings are excellent to work with.  Barry's heads are excellent.  I would be glad to port all three side by side and flow side by side for any comparison just to document how they fare with similiar valve sizing and using the same flow bench.  Joe-JDC.

BH107

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2014, 11:15:31 PM »
The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

Can we officiall start calling them Kia heads? Or Hyundai? When I'm in the market for heads I'll stick with something made in the USA and support the businesses that have kept our FE engines going until now, even if it costs a little more.

My company fights against cheaper offshore products, and they have put alot of good American companies out of business.

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2014, 03:54:53 AM »
It s Barry s felony head , and a tremec tko 600 and a 4.165 bore stroker kit - 4.25 crank , all of which he sells .. I call that one stop shopping   lol .. Thanks guy s for all the input  Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

blykins

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2014, 05:13:45 AM »
I personally have no issue with foreign made parts, and I would assume the other builders don't either, or they wouldn't be using Scat cranks and rods. 

I don't have a dog in the head manufacturer fight, I'll use whatever is a good choice for the engine I'm building, as long as it's not junk.   I'll use a Pond head, Edelbrock head, BBM head, Dove, Blue Thunder, and I'll even use Barry's head. 

However, I would find it hard to speak against a foreign made head, while I'm typing on a keyboard made in Japan, attached to a computer made in India, while sipping coffee out of a coffee maker made in China. 

I got 308 cfm out of a BBM head out of the box, with just a 50° seat angle, along with a Manley valve....at .600" lift.   Haven't used a set on a running engine yet, but I can imagine that they would be strong performers. 

We are getting 350/270 out of the Pond heads for the big inch engines that I do, with a CNC ported intake side, and a cleaned up exhaust side. 

Lots of good parts out there to choose from.

Still waiting on Barry to send me a head to check out.  ;-)
Brent Lykins
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ScotiaFE

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2014, 06:52:52 AM »
The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

For "box stock ported" heads, they only outflow Barry's as cast heads by 3 cfm at .600". With a minor port work, the Felony head will own the BBM head. I'd rather buy American anyway.
The headline should read now
Survival heads  vs  Edelbrock heads vs BBM heads.
Blue Oval has posted an ad that they are for sale now.
New game in town now.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1396432684/DETAILS+ON+THE+BBM+FE+BLOCKS+%26amp%3B+HEADS

Just saying...

Can we officiall start calling them Kia heads? Or Hyundai? When I'm in the market for heads I'll stick with something made in the USA and support the businesses that have kept our FE engines going until now, even if it costs a little more.

My company fights against cheaper offshore products, and they have put alot of good American companies out of business.


A couple of elephants in the room here.
1. The BBM is the best bang for the buck.
2. All Edelbrock junk is foreign, for me anyways.
3. Barry built his business selling Chinese cranks and rods. No offense Barry, but....
4. The Felony heads are 2 months plus away from being in stock. According to the web site.
5. Korea is a major trading partner and Ally with Canada and Harper just signed a Free Trade deal with them.
6. Pretty sure the USA is heavily entrenched in Korea.

I will be ordering a set of BBM's as soon as my CC recovers from the last round of assaults I committed on it.
And I will be happy and proud to have a set. 

sumfoo1

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2014, 07:38:37 AM »
next question is... does the T&D race rocker setup bolt to all of them ok.... i mean between them and harland sharp there aren't many other rockers i'd trust at .6-.7" of lift for any rev range able to take advantage of a 350cfm flowing ported head.

I really like the fact that this board has kept everything relatively civil  for  the conversation going on.

To be honest i haven't caught Barry saying "my heads are better because they are made in the USA" for that fact, he hasn't even said his heads are better at all.

Also we have to look at combustion chamber shape too.  As flow is one of the largest contributors in hp making but if you can't run any decent compression or timing without knocking all the flow in the world either won't make power or will install windows in your block.

My engine has pond heads.... mostly because when i started my build Barry's heads weren't even announced as being in development. 

Also I've seen as many casting imperfections (if not more) come from edelbrock tagged as made in the USA as i have heads from anywhere else.

I guess.. make the best part and i will find it and buy it...  i think we have plenty of good choices now... i really think barry's  heads are one of the better ones since they were designed not only to maximize flow but to work with the common intakes without welding and patching etc.

for the two long did not read folks

Do the research and buy the best part... i do go american in a tie but that's the only time i use location as a deciding factor.





Somewhat off topic...

Scat does sell Chinese parts and in my experience Chinese metallurgy can fall a little short of what i would trust.  BUT, the bottom end parts on most big blocks are so huge it doesn't matter especially if you buy from a distributor that matches sets and does some QC of their own.

To be honest i think almost every cheap H beam rod made by eagle, scat, manley etc... are all made over seas... possibly in the same factory, if you look at them side by side. My experience is mostly with them in subarus... I've seen them fail at 300whp... I've seen them run for 60k miles on 400whp with a less conservative tune which as you all know is a 4 cylinder with short narrow rod and a ton of drivetrain loss.. meaning i would easily trust them to 600-700hp in a v8 beyond that i'd go crower, carrillo, pauter etc.. if steel and any of the huge aluminum pieces...

Also my wife's daily driver is a kia, so korean stuff doesn't bother me... her soul is a well made car especially for 17k fully loaded brand new.
(i drive a 9 month old jeep wrangler rubicon that's already on it's second water pump... GO DETROIT! ( full disclosure i doubt the water pump was made in the us)) 

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2014, 07:46:13 AM »
Either way, we should all be REALLY excited.
Wasn't ALL that long ago the choices were, Edelbrock or stock.  Blue Thunder for the big bore race engines.

It is awesome to have the options we currently have.  For my broke arse, I'll sit on the sidelines, ignore the flow tests and see how they all work on engines yall are building.
Hopefully someday the FE will have a head like the FordRacing/Kaase scj heads, high velocity and stupidly high flows for the cost of the heads.  Support 700hp outta the box with maybe a valve job.


Quote
To be honest i haven't caught Barry saying "my heads are better because they are made in the USA" for that fact, he hasn't even said his heads are better at all.
If I recall Barry said "oh snap, those look like they'll be close to my heads"  when he saw the bbm heads.  Gotta give props to that, real professionals the folks here are.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:49:04 AM by Drew Pojedinec »

blykins

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2014, 07:51:56 AM »
The T&D race set would require milling of any head, of course, but they should bolt up just fine since the valve spacing is pretty close to the same.  On the Pond heads with the T&D race stuff, I've had to swap shims from side to side to get the valve tip in a  better spot, but that's not a huge issue. 

As far as Chinese metallurgy, I would probably have to disagree with you, as Eagle FE cranks are known to be the weak links as far as FE cranks.  I've seen numerous Eagle FE cranks fail between the 2-3 FE forums that I'm a member of, and I haven't seen one Scat fail.   Even the cast Scat cranks will take a pretty good beating. 

I made this point on the other forum, I don't mind using off-shore stuff as long as it's good off-shore stuff.  To me, anything with the Procomp name on it is junk, I won't use any Eagle products, "Hawk Racing", etc., etc.  Shoot, even the  Callies Compstar line is offshore, machined in the US, but I wouldn't have any reservations against that line. 

Brent Lykins
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2014, 07:53:19 AM »
A couple of elephants in the room here.
1. The BBM is the best bang for the buck.
2. All Edelbrock junk is foreign, for me anyways.
3. Barry built his business selling Chinese cranks and rods. No offense Barry, but....
4. The Felony heads are 2 months plus away from being in stock. According to the web site.
5. Korea is a major trading partner and Ally with Canada and Harper just signed a Free Trade deal with them.
6. Pretty sure the USA is heavily entrenched in Korea.

I will be ordering a set of BBM's as soon as my CC recovers from the last round of assaults I committed on it.
And I will be happy and proud to have a set.

I really tried to just post data here - but this one screams for a response.

1 - nobody knows whether the BBM parts are good, bad, equal, competitive or outstanding yet.  There have been exactly zero production items sold yet - just prototypes sent out for appraisal.  All we know is that they are coming soon, from a brand new company that has never marketed a single aftermarket part before, contracting casting from an offshore supplier that nobody has ever seen or visited outside of the folks making them.  These may well be excellent parts at a great value - we just do not know yet.  Calling them "the best" is premature at this time...

2  Calling Edelbrock foreign is simply idiotic.  Sorry to be so blunt.  But whether you like or hate them, they are a company that was born and raised in the US, with a fairly new casting foundry in the US, and machining done in the US.  Criticize their quality, their business practices, or their marketing methodology if you don't like them.  Making parts here may not be an advantage to some folks, but should never be perceived as a negative by anybody.

3 Fair call.  But comparing Scat with their 20-30 year history of sales to a start-up operation seems a little simplistic.  And if there were any sort of domestic sourced competitive product I would love to offer it - we offer the excellent Callies rods as an upgrade.  But there are no domestic cast crankshaft suppliers at this time - thus no possibility of others.

4 Fair call.  FElony heads are pretty much always two months behind these days.  I have shipped 57 pair so far - more than I expected this quickly and its put me behind.  I anticipated selling a lot of castings and a few completes.  Instead I seem to be selling nearly all complete heads - each set takes us a couple days to do - still with a shop to run.  Multiply that by 50 pair and you see the problem.  It will eventually improve as I get the process refined but that will be a while.

5 and 6 No problem with Korea at all.  I just chose another path that would get me the quality I desired at a market rational price.

blykins

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2014, 08:06:26 AM »
I think Howie's comment about Edelbrock being "foreign" was because he's in Canada.....they are "foreign" to him.
Brent Lykins
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ScotiaFE

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:55 AM »
Barry as Brent said I live in Nova Scotia, Canada.
That's almost a foreign land in Canada. :D


Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2014, 09:40:01 AM »
Fair enough - I need to pay more attention.... :-[
I don't think even a Canadian would consider the US and Korea to be equivalent...

sumfoo1

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2014, 09:56:55 AM »
ohhh shit does that mean windsor motors are foreign...

lol seriously i don't consider even the mexican blocks to be foreign for some reason....

When it comes to car engines i must be very open...

And to Brents point on Chinese metallurgy i probably shouldn't make blanket statements like that.  I know the eagle stuff can be junk and it can work fine they seem to have the least QC on what they get. Am i mistaken in thinking that all of those "low end imported h beam rods" are all made in the same place regardless of the retailer here?


In construction and maintenance of the 184 buildings and 4.9 million sqft I'm responsible for in my county I've learned that Chinese 304 stainless rusts... and ours doesn't...  it makes me worry about their 4340...

blykins

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2014, 12:31:43 PM »
No sir, all the lower end H-beam rods are not made from the same place.
Brent Lykins
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cjshaker

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2014, 12:50:27 PM »
I think Howie's comment about Edelbrock being "foreign" was because he's in Canada.....they are "foreign" to him.

This really made me laugh!! Just shows that all comments have been relevant...and correct ;D ;D

Each head (Edelbrock, FElony, Blue Thunder and BBM) will have its merits, attributes and place in the food chain. That is a good thing.

As for the quality of the BBM, if Rob from Blue Oval is a major backer and placing his name on the line, you can rest assured the quality will be there. Otherwise he would not be involved.

After studying the chambers in the BBM pictures, I'm pretty intrigued by them. They obviously have some very modern "high swirl" intake design incorporated into them. That would explain the very low total timing requirements they have stated. It also would make a big difference in relation to todays less and less performance friendly gas. Less timing to achieve the same horsepower is a good thing. Along with engine management, it's the driving factor for most modern factory performance engines.

Whichever set I choose for my drag car build, I just hope I can get them in time and talk Joe into porting them for me before he gets out of it altogether :)
Doug Smith


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fastback 427

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2014, 02:18:16 PM »
As someone who lost their job to foreign outsourcing and competition I try to buy made in the usa when possible. Koreans bought the factory ran it two years then shut it down. 1500 people, including my 59 year old mother, done. We watched as they changed our designs and heavy cast iron parts with plastic injection molding and cheap steel to up the profit margins for the shareholders. That being said I don't begrudge Barry or Brent or anyone for buying foreign parts. The Koreans have better metallurgy than the Chinese and better quality control or so we've been told. I'll let Barry, Brent and others machine a few hundred sets to see how good they are. They better be of better quality and cheaper before I'd buy them over Barry's head. I do commend Pond, Barry and Vic for having a fairly priced head, if you YouTube " Chinese manufacturing safety" you will wonder how they compete!
Jaime
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2014, 05:50:16 PM »
The USA is in the World market today. The Great USA used to make and sell everything to them remember. World market and greed sets in....we all want the best bang for our buck. Just remember you want to deal with people that do what they say. Information is worth what????? PLENTY if someone in a engine shop lays out an engine build plan for your vehicle you should buy all the parts they can supply from them. I have 50 years invested in this Hot Rod industry and I feel you should spend your money with PEOPLE that help you.
 :)
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2014, 03:57:18 AM »
Barry brings up an important point: BBM is an unknown supplier, without a history of products, good or bad.

We all know that there are teething issues when a new product is brought to market, from MAJOR issues with the FE products from Shelby, Genesis, Dove, and Pond, and even issues with the Edelbrock FE heads and RPM intakes when they came out. Doug knows that his cylinder heads and blocks, being imported, will receive the most intense scrutiny, from some very biased sources. The smallest imperfection, real or perceived, will be pounced upon and immediately held up for ridicule! And that is one reason it has taken so long for BBM to bring it's first products to market. The BBM parts have to have ALL of the bugs worked out BEFORE they are released to market. The parts have to be thoroughly tested and inspected. This has NOT been the case with ANY of the other FE parts suppliers to date. Let's leave Dove out of the discussion, but the long list of problems with early, and even later, castings from Edelbrock, Shelby, Genesis, and Pond could fill pages.

The FE builders that got these early parts knew there were going to be learning issues, you had to take it in stride and either figure out a fix or send it back and hope the next one would be better. We were just thrilled that they were making FE parts at all! So you cuss a bit, tell the customer there is a delay, and move on. Do you think everyone will cut BBM's new parts that kind of slack? Obviously not.

In actuality, BBM prototype heads have not only been sent out for appraisal, they have been on numerous running engines for the last eight months and have logged thousands of miles with no issues. We dyno'd our first engine with BBM heads last fall. ALL this was done BEFORE giving the go ahead for actual, full production. Doug has a 36 year background as a master CNC machinist, he is quite focused on the quality, accuracy, and consistency of the machining on the heads, as well as the blocks.

As for the "mysterious" offshore supplier that nobody has ever seen, yeah, maybe the folks in FE world aren't familiar with them, but the same could be said for Pond, Genesis, and 427 Garage. They don't explain who their suppliers are, or give out ANY info what so ever. And they don't have to.

The foundry and machine shop that BBM is working with may be unfamiliar to most of us, but they are major players, both at home and with Detroit. The machine shop is a regular Aerospace/Defense industry contractor, and they currently machine automotive V-6 heads and blocks for one of the big auto makers. The foundry casts aluminum and iron automotive blocks, diesel blocks, and is CGI capable. They have a fifteen year history of casting and machining blocks for Detroit and are in the process of setting up to produce new castings for Detroit at the rate of thousands per month. This is no garage operation. 

While working out details on the new engine parts, Detroit and Korea have sent teams of people back and forth many times this past year. During these trips, representatives from the foundry and machine shop have not only stopped and spent time with Doug at BBM in California, but they have even flown to Colorado and come to our little shop. Twice last year, they have sent a team here, including foundry and design engineers, a metallurgist, lead machinist, machine shop foreman and the owner. Each time, we've spent days going over blueprints, BBM parts, original parts, and other aftermarket parts, looking at how Blue Oval will be doing finish machining on the heads and blocks, flow testing, and doing mock assemblies. They insisted on mounting everything to the blocks, from intake manifold to oil pan, bell housing to motor mounts. I have been very impressed with the level of professionalism and their Can Do attitude.   They actually listen to what we have to say, and do what we ask. If I pointed out something that wasn't quite right on a prototype part, they reacted with embarrassment and assured me that it would be taken care of and would not be a problem again. It's really a matter of pride, and they want to produce a top quality part. It's very rare to find that kind of dedication anymore. It's the kind of attitude I think this country had from WWII through to the Cold War and Space Program in the Sixties.

All of us worry about the shift from U.S. to offshore manufactured goods. And while many of us will try to favor American made goods, it's almost impossible to do. Even so called American made goods are not always American. While researching suppliers for seats and guides, Doug found that while the well known US made cylinder head manufacturer's seats and guides may be finish machined here, the blanks are made in China. On their assembled heads, the valves are imported and the springs are China.  There are no cut and dried answers.

It all comes down to producing the best possible product, at a reasonable cost, with consistent availability, and excellent customer service.


Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2014, 07:20:11 AM »
Rob
I actually can agree with much of you wrote with a couple exceptions.
 
I know where Robert's stuff is made - but that is indeed his own business, will remain that way, and he does a very nice job.

I've known where Tim's blocks were cast and machined for a very long time - as I suspect you have.  It's not too challenging to find out when he is standing in their display booth at PRI most years - with a block casting nearby.  The machining is done about 45 minutes from my shop.  Pretty easy to speak with and visit the casting guys and the machining guys - no plane ticket required.

I'd rather still believe that there are plenty of very dedicated people still working here in the USA, with a high degree of skill and motivation, intent on turning out good products.  While verging on a political comment - its safe to say that we as a country have suffered from a movement to use well intentioned but ill advised government regulation to outsource our safety, wage, and environmental concerns - sending jobs to places where such issues and costs are minimized.  That movement, encouraged by the fundamental need for corporate profitability, does not justify the idea that product from other countries is in any way "better or worse" just because it's not made here.

As an aside, the last reasonably large scale U.S. valve manufacturing plant that catered to the aftermarket closed about ten years ago.  The Pennsylvania based Manley valve company shared the namesake of the New Jersey based performance Manley because it was founded by his father.  After a 90s era acquisition it ended up in the hands of Bob Green & Dynagear.  When Bob died, the Dynagear group was parted out and Basso (aka BBB) out of South America purchased the equipment and tooling.  As was the case in other plant closures - Federal-Mogul's Malden piston facility comes to mind - there was absolutely no reason to close that operation from a quality or profitability perspective. 

Name that foundry...
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 07:24:07 AM by Barry_R »

turbohunter

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2014, 01:00:06 PM »
I don't know if you guys have seen this, it's off a Model T forum.
The world has changed, but thank goodness there are people (like those above) that still try to do put out a great product.

From Tom Lieb CEO of SCAT Enterprises, INC.

First I would like to answer the questions poised on the forum. Second I would like to clear up the confusion generated by some of the members. Last, I would like to thank all those who participation on the forum for heir kind words.

I am an old car guy. Presently my collection has 22 cars including a Model T. My cars go from early brass to 30’s classics. I have won Pebble Beach Vintage Class 3 different times with one of my 7 Wills St. Claires. I started making crankshafts in 1966 and connecting rods in 1972. Presently we manufacture 100 to 120 cranks a day and an average of 1000 connecting rods a day. We supply the big three with cranks and rods for prototyping as well as their crate motor programs, our O.C. system etc, falls under their guide lines. Our cranks and rods have won over the years every race venue including Indy and Daytona 500.

MG cranks were mentioned on the forum. Scat has manufactured 1000’s of these exclusively for Moss Motors since 1972 in Goleta, CA. They are forged in England on the original dies out of 4340 Chromemoly steel from British Steel. They are machined and Heat treated at our Redondo Beach facility in California.

Many years ago steel mills and forging houses started to close for obvious political, union and environmental reasons. Today there are no steel mills or forging houses left in the USA. That produced the alloys or is capable of forging crankshafts.

The Scat Model T cranks are forged in China in the same factory where Scat forged cranks for FORD, GM and Chrysler. This is under the same strict quality control standards. They are machined, balanced and heat treated in our Redondo Beach, Ca facility. I have included some pictures to show just a few of our 30 something CNC machines and one of our 12 crank grinders working on the Model T cranks. They are made of 4340 Chromemoly steel forging.

If you are ever in the L.A. area you are more than welcome to come by and visit. I will personally give you a tour of the shop and car collection. I can be reached at tlieb@scatenterprises.com or (310) 370-5501 ext. 112 if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Tom Lieb
Marc
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2014, 10:28:24 PM »
Well, most folks mean well....  I'm sure most of the folks making FE parts try their best to use stuff that is local.
It is in our nature as good people to try to help out our neighbors.

When folks here at work like to complain about the "buying stuff from elsewhere" mentality I like to tell this little story from my own life.
Well, I work 28 days at a time offshore.... 12-16 hours a day.  When I come home I've only got so much time before I have to go back.
Well, i had this pair of boots that was well beyond worn out.  They also were getting holes in them, and well... working offshore, wet feet when you work long days can not only be uncomfortable, it can be dangerous over a month as I'm sure you can imagine.

So, I told my wife I needed new boots badly.  I gave her the spec's of exactly what I wanted, Carolina boot, electrically resistant, waterproof, steel toe'd etc.  I gave her the part number, everything she needed.  She said she would go and order it from amazon.com and I said, "naw, lets go down to the local shoe store, and give them the order."  She said it'd be probably $15 more for the shoes, I told her I didn't care, it was worth it to help support a local business.  I knew this fella, I knew he was complaining about how business was suffering and he didn't know if he could keep it all going.
So she went down to the shoe store, gave them all the info, gave them the part number, even told em where they could order it if they couldn't find it.  The fella said he'd take care of it and made some phone calls.  My wife also made sure he knew that I'd be home in a week and going back to work 10 days after that.

so I get home and go visit the shoe store, he says they aren't there yet and should be in a few days.  I go stop by a few days later and he says, they aren't there yet and should be in a few days.  The day before I go back to work, I show up ready to raise hell.  I bitched him out, that in fact I was willing to spend the extra money (was actually $20 more) to get boots from him, and I feel like he'd let me down.  He scratched his head and loaded up his email program.  He goes "ohh there it is, hmmm yeah, they aren't in stock, would you like me to order something else for you?"
I freaked out a little bit, told him I was headed to work in 8 hours and wasn't ever coming back to his store.

Anyhow, I spent the next month with a lot of anti-fungal cream and wet feet, everyday I thought about how annoyed i was about trying to do the right thing.

We did indeed order online and got the boots in 48 hours.
moral of my story,  I'd like to support my neighbor, I really do, but I refuse to do myself any disservice in the meantime.
Perhaps I'm being naive and wanting to believe that everyone has the best intentions, but I tend to think all the folks having these parts have the same mentality.  They are going to try and have a local make the stuff, but in the end, they cannot sink their own boat trying to keep someone elses afloat.

BruceS

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2014, 09:04:33 AM »
Drew,
Hard to disagree with the moral to that story. 
Has anyone had recent experience from the Pond heads?  Robert has been mentioned a number of times in this forum; but not much comment about his head offerings. 
I thought this would be another data point to consider.

Overall, I think it's a great thing we FE'ers have so many choices these days. 

Bruce
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blykins

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2014, 01:12:26 PM »
I'm a fan of the Pond heads, have used 2 pair in the past few months, and they seem to be solid performers.  The good thing about working with Robert is that he absolutely stands behind his stuff, no matter what, no questions asked. 
Brent Lykins
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bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2014, 06:12:15 PM »
When is there going to be more info on the BBM stuff , someone really needs to come up with cheaper block options for us , the head options are there along with all the supporting parts.. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

ScotiaFE

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2014, 05:12:12 AM »
$3295 fully machined just needing a zero deck and final hone for a 4.250 bore. According to Doug and Bob's ad.
Most other aftermarket blocks in the 8 to 9 Litre range are comparable in price.
Yes we all want 1999.00 sideoiler race blocks, but it's not going to happen.
427 blocks were expensive in the 60's and they are still expensive.
Once they are out in public we will get a better look at them, but if they are as good as the old Genesis then anyone who
buys one will be getting a good deal.
I paid more for my now vintage Genesis block. just saying

And yes everyone should buy Canadian made and support our economy, but there really is not a lot of Canadian made aftermarket
427 blocks so one will have to buy Foreign.  ::) :P

machoneman

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 05:50:10 AM »
Hah! $1999 FE 427 blocks. Still, IIRC, I bought a brand new in the crate Boss 302 4-bolt bare block for just over $200 in about 1977. Ford just a few years prior (1974?) offered bare non-SOHC 427 blocks for about $250.00 and H-M was selling complete 427 SOHC's for $1999.00!   

http://www.dearbornflashback.com/xfiles.asp

Heck, I even bought a L-88 427 Chevy (sorry!) short block in 1973 for about $700.00!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 05:54:24 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2014, 04:36:34 PM »
I just don't understand why the big to do about 10-20 or even 30 cfm from one head vs another there has to be more then flow numbers of the heads by themselves. To my thinking well over 50% of the buyers of these heads will bolt them on a motor with no porting done to their selected intake manifold. Certainly Joe-JDC does not do his magic on but a trickle of FE Intakes and who else even does the art of FE intake manifold work?.....  Does it not make sense that any companies tricked out $2500 heads should have something similar as far as porting their customers selected intake to match up to those big $$ heads?
           Maybe I'm wrong but my guess is an un-modified intake can lay waste to getting anything near the full performance out of those high-$-heads.   I sat in on a Superflow presentation at PRI on Wet-Flowing-Heads, again flowing air is one thing - flowing an air:fuel mixture is another.  I've never even heard mention of an FE head being wet flowed.   Obviously if one looks at Pro/Stock heads the era of bigger-is-better ports has passed.
     Ditto the Gents that do not intend to build full time race motors  I see the .700" inch lift figure thrown into this discussion - isn't .700" reserved for solid rollers in full time race only FEs? ..... Seems almost like the malarkey claims of K&N where they take off a stock filter and bolt on a K&N air-filter to a full race engine and get and additional 50HP - So the average Joe believes he'll get an additional 50HP if he bolts on a K&N on his wifes SUV.
   


 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:40:12 PM by Qikbbstang »

sumfoo1

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2014, 09:12:00 AM »
My opinion in summary... if you don't care about your intake you won't care about your heads so buy the cheapest ones you can to fit your purpose.

Or for that matter just use the stock stuff.  you are exactly right you have to build an entire engine together... but if you aren't building one for power then there is no reason to be too choosy.

Intake needs to match heads which need to match cam...  There is no point in putting a sheet-metal intake on an engine with poor flowing heads and a cam that dies at 5000 rpm....

There is no reason to put heads that have amazing flow numbers at .700"  when your cam only opens to .450"

There is no reason to have a long duration high lift cam on a dual plane single carb intake with poor flowing heads...

I would hope that all of these would be obvious to anyone posting on an engine specific forum. I mean if this was FMF or something where half the cars are just meant to be pretty i would understand someone wanting to build an engine without any idea of how.... but this is FEPower.... and CFM of heads directly affects the power the FE can make as long as you do the other supporting mods required.

/rant.

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2014, 08:30:49 PM »
Amen on that , there is a difference , 400-450 , 450-500, 500 -550 and so on as far as horsepower go s and if its better heads that take you there or more intake or a bigger carb then do what each wants .. To me i feel you can have 500 plus hp , and still have a very streetable car or truck and enjoy it ..Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

Barry_R

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2014, 08:44:47 PM »
That - in a "nutshell" - is why I post my web site flow data in a graphic format rather than just a peak number.  And its why I am often asking about port volume.  Its comparatively easy to get "big" flow numbers from a "big hole" - but its not conducive to part throttle behavior, acceleration through the powerband, or throttle response.

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2014, 08:52:53 PM »
Barry im ready to order a set of your heads , and put them on my 428 along with the cam swap and also order a tremec tko 600 , i have  been saving for a year to make some changes on my stang .. BUD
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2014, 09:12:50 PM »
This might come as a shock but flow isn't everything and it is possible to lose power with more flow than is needed.

Would an Econoline cube van with a 302 be better off with 1969 Boss 302 heads?

bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2014, 09:20:51 PM »
Not even a fair contest , big difference in 302 cubes and 434 cubes , bore and rpm range . I would say that if anyone used a 428 or a 445 and did 2 dyno runs on either , one with stock edelbrocks and the other with survival felony heads , the felony heads would best the eds by a solid 40 hp .. IMO  Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2014, 09:27:16 PM »
This might come as a shock but flow isn't everything and it is possible to lose power with more flow than is needed.

Says the man with a High Riser and dual 4 intake!

Sorry Tom, I just couldn't resist :)
But you are absolutely right. The smallest port you can get, while still maintaining the flow needed to support your horsepower, is the better choice. Or "quality" over "quantity". Boss 302s and Cleveland 4v heads are the perfect example.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
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bn69stang

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2014, 03:49:26 PM »
Correct me if im wrong guy s , i understand you need a complete package to work together but almost every thread you read about an fe these days has reworked edelbrock heads with bigger valves and some mild port reworking , Jay even posted a car craft article , Barry s book with flow info posted . Joe s posting s on flow and applications - all this to me says like it was mentioned way early in this forum ( spend money on the valve train ) . I don t think that the felony head is to much for what im doing with my 434 inch , along with all the parts i have and the kieth kraft stage 2 head s probably would be , the bbm heads would work as well . Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2014, 09:51:02 PM »
I don t think that the felony head is to much for what im doing with my 434 inch , along with all the parts i have and the kieth kraft stage 2 head s probably would be , the bbm heads would work as well . Bud

Absolutely not. I think the post has just turned into a long discussion on flow vs. port size vs. port volume vs. U.S. vs. overseas vs. vs. vs.  :)

Either the Edelbrocks or the FElony heads would work fine for your intentions. The BBMs look to be in the same ballpark also. I don't think you would go wrong with any of the 3.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 09:53:27 PM by cjshaker »
Doug Smith


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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2014, 08:37:40 AM »
Modifying the standard Ed in my opinion is not the way to get the most for your money.  CNC programs for the standard head that make it bigger and bigger are not the best either, in my opinion.  The Pro Port Ed is absolutely the best platform.  It is a "porter's head".   I rarely see mention of the Pro Ports in forum discussions.  They have a tiny port...........just big enough to get a tool started, and a finished guide hole. They also have a spark plug hole and only enough chamber cast in to make a rough seat hole.   A blank sheet of paper, basically.  The port can be small.........in the stock location for a MR gasket.   It could also be mid 170's on CC's and flow 170 at .200, 280-ish at .400, and 320-sumpn at .600.  It can have an exhaust with a nice raised floor with no welding.  There is alot more to a cylinder head than just the max flow number............especially with streetable cams at .600 lift or less.  All of these fellers sell nice products.  My choice is the Pro Port.  If you buy any of the other heads and spend equal money on prep, I have concluded that the Ed Pro Port with a well-designed CNC program and the right finish work will give the most bang for the buck.  We did a 496 cuber at 12.5 static that made 785 hp and 710 tq with a small Pro Port as described.  The proud owner put it in a street car.  He then decided to go and run a little at the racetrack.  It went 6.20 at 110 with DOT tires.  He had to coast through the 1/4 mile because he only has a 6-point rollbar.  The only "oops" was he had a thermostat in it and a mechanical water pump and it blew a frost plug out when it went from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in about a second.  With a little tweaking, this car will go 6.00's and probably 9.40..........and not exceed 7000 rpm except at the finish line.   The car is a '64 Fairlane and weighs 3350 lbs with a driver.  It has a 4.11 Detroit Locker......not even a spool!  Pro Ports..............the timeslip don't lie.  There is a pic of the car on the FE Forum in Don Fottis post.  It really looks like a grocery getter.   Pro Ports..........................

Blair Patrick
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2014, 09:10:50 AM »
Those ports are small!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-61857/overview/

I do wonder though why these heads, as Blair mentioned, are hardly ever spoken about on many forums.  Is it true though that so much needs to be hogged out that even with a great CNC program, the machine time needed to do so raises the cost a bunch? Put another way, compared to a say a Stage 1 or Stage II CNC port job on a finished head, does the Edel's cost become prohibitive for all but all-out racers?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 11:20:23 AM by machoneman »
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2014, 10:07:33 AM »
I did bring up the pro ports in the tremeck t56 magnum thread, no bites though. Didn't kunts and company make 1100 HP na with pro ports? It would be great if someone could come up with a reasonably priced cnc program for the pro ports. I thought kunts and company pro port was over 420 flow on the intake. That's better than many BBC and BBF aftermarket top shelf heads. Wonder how a small runner high velocity big flow head like that would run on the track and the street?
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2014, 11:18:58 AM »
I did the Survival Stage X before the Felony was available, I am sending the heads off to Barry again for a full race port and polish, heart shaped chambers and milling. I already have them set up for my T&D oil drilled race rockers and through push rod oiling. The valves nearly touch each other and the stems are much smaller for increased flow. From what Barry said it looks like 350 cfm on the intake. That is about all you can do to an Edelbrock without welding I guess. I think the Felony or Blue Thunder has more potential but I had the heads already.

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2014, 11:28:45 AM »
While we've got some guys that work with all this often in this thread (blair/barry/joe/brent/etc)  a question.....

Considering probably 98% of all high powered FE engines have aftermarket rocker systems, has someone not developed a mass marketable FE head with non-stock valve locations? 
I see the 385 series SCJ Kaase/Ford Motorsports heads and they are an incredible value for what they are.  Minor work and they can support a ton of power without loss of velocity.  They have a ton of low lift flow as well.

thanks
dp

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2014, 11:55:12 AM »
Hey drew, have you seen the billet splayed valve fe heads from ultra pro machining? Huge flow with a price to match. 470 cfm at an inch.
Jaime
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2014, 12:02:38 PM »
I did bring up the pro ports in the tremeck t56 magnum thread, no bites though. Didn't kunts and company make 1100 HP na with pro ports? It would be great if someone could come up with a reasonably priced cnc program for the pro ports. I thought kunts and company pro port was over 420 flow on the intake. That's better than many BBC and BBF aftermarket top shelf heads. Wonder how a small runner high velocity big flow head like that would run on the track and the street?

The head I referenced in my post is a budget "street/strip" deal.  I have several forms of all-out race ports, but that particular combo is a stock-location intake port at the flange, which means any MR manifold can bolt right on with no mods IF intake works is not in the plan.  It has my intake port, and one of Jeff Colvert's exhaust ports in it.  These heads are intended for mild cams and street strokers, but we had to laugh when we put them on a 496 with a .700 lift solid roller with a tunnel wedge and made that kind of steam with them.  The next test is a 458 daily driver with a mild hydraulic roller.  We will see how they do on that, with a 3X2 OEM manifold.
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2014, 12:33:43 PM »
The only "oops" was he had a thermostat in it and a mechanical water pump and it blew a frost plug out when it went from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in about a second.  Blair Patrick

A frost plug blew out?
It had pound in plugs at 496 inch's? 

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2014, 01:40:11 PM »
Hey drew, have you seen the billet splayed valve fe heads from ultra pro machining? Huge flow with a price to match. 470 cfm at an inch.

No I had not, but that isn't really on the level of the SCJ 385 heads in the cost to power ratio.  I understand the valve layout is different between these engine series.... was just asking out of curiousity, sure, it would make an FE less an FE.

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2014, 03:22:42 PM »
The only "oops" was he had a thermostat in it and a mechanical water pump and it blew a frost plug out when it went from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in about a second.  Blair Patrick

A frost plug blew out?
It had pound in plugs at 496 inch's?

Yep.  It is an early top-oiler Ford block.  We drilled it for pushrod oiling.  Not as thick as the aftermarket, but better than a sideoiler for cylinder wall integrity.  He had blocked the bypass and only had three 1/8 holes in the T-stat.  Left the line at 140 with a 180 T-stat.......that watter had to go somewhere!
Blair Patrick

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2014, 04:51:05 PM »
So Blair i ll buy those heads , how much for you to set them up and make them work ? , they would be for a street car with attitude .  ::) .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2014, 07:39:38 PM »
Bud, my email is captcj at hughes dot net.  Shoot me an email with your info and I'll get back to you.  I should not discuss jobs and money on Jays forum. Thanks, BP.
Blair Patrick

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2014, 11:24:39 AM »
Modifying the standard Ed in my opinion is not the way to get the most for your money.  CNC programs for the standard head that make it bigger and bigger are not the best either, in my opinion.  The Pro Port Ed is absolutely the best platform.  It is a "porter's head".   I rarely see mention of the Pro Ports in forum discussions.  They have a tiny port...........just big enough to get a tool started, and a finished guide hole. They also have a spark plug hole and only enough chamber cast in to make a rough seat hole.   A blank sheet of paper, basically.  The port can be small.........in the stock location for a MR gasket.   It could also be mid 170's on CC's and flow 170 at .200, 280-ish at .400, and 320-sumpn at .600.  It can have an exhaust with a nice raised floor with no welding.  There is alot more to a cylinder head than just the max flow number............especially with streetable cams at .600 lift or less.  All of these fellers sell nice products.  My choice is the Pro Port.  If you buy any of the other heads and spend equal money on prep, I have concluded that the Ed Pro Port with a well-designed CNC program and the right finish work will give the most bang for the buck.  We did a 496 cuber at 12.5 static that made 785 hp and 710 tq with a small Pro Port as described.  The proud owner put it in a street car.  He then decided to go and run a little at the racetrack.  It went 6.20 at 110 with DOT tires.  He had to coast through the 1/4 mile because he only has a 6-point rollbar.  The only "oops" was he had a thermostat in it and a mechanical water pump and it blew a frost plug out when it went from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in about a second.  With a little tweaking, this car will go 6.00's and probably 9.40..........and not exceed 7000 rpm except at the finish line.   The car is a '64 Fairlane and weighs 3350 lbs with a driver.  It has a 4.11 Detroit Locker......not even a spool!  Pro Ports..............the timeslip don't lie.  There is a pic of the car on the FE Forum in Don Fottis post.  It really looks like a grocery getter.   Pro Ports..........................

Blair Patrick
[/color]


 Blair , I am in complete agreement on the Pro-Port Ed head. With a relatively "clean sheet" the port can be designed with the airspeeds needed for the desired engine operating conditions. The ports can be moved around and sized to suit . The other thing I like a lot is that a proper combustion chamber can be machined for the desired combination . One thing I am not sure on is whether the valve centerline can be moved on the ProPort, or are the guide locations pre machined to a near- finished state? I would like the option of relocating the intake guide to the OEM location for the 4.05" - 4.13" bores.

  One thing I should point out here is that there is way to much talk (on all forums) of airflow CFM and not airspeed and air quality. I spend two to three times as long on my SF600 with my pitot and flow wands  measuring airspeed and air direction as I do CFM. If I had a port that flowed good numbers but had poor airspeed, I would have to abandon that port configuration and move on or fill in the dead areas and redesign the port. The flowballs help here. Without a good handle on the airspeed and mixture directional control in the port and chamber , the engine will not trap all of the air CFM available to it when the intake valve closes. The engine will drop in VE % .

  Another thing.... valve sizes.  On the Edelbrock FE Performer heads , the intake valve location has been moved to the 427 OEM position. For a small bore engine this is disaster. A 2.20" valve may fit, but the airflow quality and flow efficiency will suffer. A large part of the valve is heavily shrouded in the combustion chamber and bore wall. The efficiency of flow management past the valve seat venturi will diminish. The efficiency of combustion will diminish. I also believe that we are told to stuff in an exhaust valve that is way too large.  A 1.71" valve will not clear the bore unless heavily clearanced for any reasonable amount of valve lift.


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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2014, 03:26:56 PM »
This is all assuming you are going carbureted and with a completely modified intake structure involving movement of pushrods, rockers and shifting of cylinder head placement on the deck. Most of this kind of specialized work is used for maximum HP and competition only engines. My mark is no more than 750 HP and others are quite lower. It becomes a game of bang for buck deal for most. I cannot use any more HP due to it will require race only parts and I would like to not have to trailer it but drive it.

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2014, 09:34:44 PM »
The guides in the Pro Ports are finished.  They send the seats, guides, and heli-coils in a bag, with the castings.  On moving the guides, I have moved them by using a .625 OD guide and offsetting it.  That will get you over .040, and the std valve location is .050 to .055 from the Ed or 427 location, so you almost get it back.  It seems to help from 3 to 5 cfm in most cases to put it back.  Possibly more with large valves on a smallish bore.  I do my "Street Pro Port" only one way.  They are 2.20/1.65 sizes.  They will fit anything 4.05 or larger.  There may be a little bit of intake shrouding on the small bores, but I think the overall gains still hugely offset the minimal loss on that.  The 1.65 exhausts are plenty plenty in the port we use.  A piloted cutter from the bowl side will trim the fat guide away real nice.

On the statement of having to move stuff around........that was the main reason I did the street/strip program.  It uses a stock MR flange location, and requires no offset rockers or lifters.  Any manifold with a MR port location will fit the port location.  I had several good programs for various applications before, but basically all of them needed manifold work or manifold work plus offset rockers to be really effective.  The mission on the street/strip deal was to optimize the head with a small volume, small cross-section, and a stock port location.  They came out better than expected.  I went to our local track with that light blue T-Bolt clone today, and it went 6.26 on 275/60 ET Street tires, spinning a little.  Rolled across the scales at 3480. It will be at Beaver next week.  It is a 496, but that is plenty of head for any 445, and it is especially suited for mild cams with lower lifts.  I am interested in using the head on some mild 390 builds, and I expect it will be a plus on the smaller engines.  A small head will still work on a big engine(sometimes better than a big head), but a big head will KILL a small engine...dead.
Blair Patrick

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2014, 09:55:57 AM »
Blair.... How do you think a set of your street/strip pro ports would work on a 390-400ish displacement engine? Where does your chamber end up (size wise) after your prep work? What kind of timing requirements does your chamber have?

 I think I want a set to try on my 390 that is currently in my truck... I dynoed it a few years ago with different heads and intake so I would want redyno the combination that's currently in the truck now and then swap to just your heads and possibly a performer rpm intake.. My current Intake is a C6-H 427/428 I believe and the c8-h heads with cj sized valves that were ported by me.

Have any idea what kind of gains I would see? Flat top 390 with a decent solid cam... Peaks around 6300 rpm currently... 50-80 hp maybe? Or is that being too optimistic? I have another project I would like to chat with you about sometime if you have a few minutes to waste... Sorry for the long winded post but I like to learn as much as I can from the best in the business


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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2014, 01:10:15 PM »
Cody,  I'm not sure I want to claim "best in the business" but I will claim to be trying hard to turn out the best I can do!  I'd be scared to spew off a claim of "X" improvement without knowing exactly what you have.  I can adjust the valve height in the chamber and affect the cc's a fair amount if I know where you want to be.  I can get them from 73 cc to 69 cc without too much grief.  If I put the valves high in the chamber, and mill about .050, I can get them close to 60 cc if desired.  It really depends on what you would want.  When you get ready, give me a holler.
Blair Patrick

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2014, 10:36:29 AM »
Sorry Blair,

Not my best choice of words... I should have said "one of the best in the business" lol... Can you elaborate a little on my ignition timing question or would it be better to call you? I'd like the chamber in the mid sixtys to keep the compression close to what I currently have for as much of a apples to apples comparison on the dyno... I think this information would be good for everybody who is thinking of stepping up their head program on the little motors as I believe my combo is as about as far as I'd want to push it as a street strip setup with only 390ish cubes, pump gas, and a solid flat tappet cam..  Are the pro ports setup up for stock style rockers or are the rocker bosses milled for the t&d setup? Thanks for your time...


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Cody Ladowski
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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2014, 06:47:25 PM »
Since I answered this origional post, I will update my findings on the Survival heads.  I just hand ported my personal set of heads from Barry, and there is nothing trick about the work, just cleaned up intake and bowl very good, and ported the exhaust quite a bit.  2.200/1.710 11/32 valves with standard 30/45/60 seats.  The heads flowed 345.83 on intake at .750" and 250.75 on exhaust without a pipe, and 272.13 with a short 2" pipe.  These look like they will be a very excellent set of heads for my 468" build.

.100      75.78      53.62
.200     143.92     108.7
.300     207.78     161.98
.400     270.08     202.48
.450     291.91     217.06
.500     309.73     226.78
.550     316.42     233.26
.600     325.33     239.74
.650     334.24     244.60
.700     343.16     248.81
.750     345.83     250.75
.800     350.29     250.75/272.13

I hope this makes everyone feel like they can get a set of the Survival heads and with a little work turn them into one of the best out there for a street/strip build.  With bigger valves, there is more, but this suits my build quite well for now.  I think Barry has a winner in this head.  Joe-JDC.

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2014, 08:14:55 PM »
Good stuff Joe! Just the kind of info I wanted on these heads.

1964 Galaxie 390 cruise-o-matic. 445 and C6 coming soon.

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2014, 08:58:47 AM »
Good luck getting the survival heads every time I call they are on back order
1962 ford Galaxie 390 .030 Ross pistons,comp cam,edelbrock heads,tremec 3550 , 9" with 4:10 gears.....it's my idea of therapy , I'm always looking for vintage Stewart Warner gauges with curved glass and the crecent pointer

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2014, 10:17:09 AM »
Good luck getting the survival heads every time I call they are on back order

You should see the ad BBM is running on FordFE. A hundred off and free shipping.
We will see if I get free shipping though.  ::)

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2014, 04:08:06 PM »
Good luck getting the survival heads every time I call they are on back order

I am doing them as quickly as my checkbook and my schedule allows.  I've cast and sold around 60 pair in the past year.  I have four pair left here that I owe folks from the prior run - one set being polished, two sets that should be shipping out tomorrow, and one CNC ported set going on a build here.  And I have one orphan head - - long and painful story....that'll require beer...maybe beers. 

I have more coming up on order with the casting house, but it takes them about 6-8 weeks to run a batch.  They are cast under contract in California, at a very well recognized and highly qualified foundry that has a ton of performance cylinder head casting experience and a reputation for quality work.  A place nobody has ever heard of - Edelbrock.  It ain't no secret.  Their foundry logo is on the head.

You've seen the flow numbers Joe posted above - so the potential is there.  I have run them and posted results on several dyno engines we've done here - ranging from a pretty straightforward 500HP 445 to a rather over the top 600+HP 527.  Just finished up dyno testing a customer assembled 482 with the heads that made 607HP with a flat tappet cam.  I ran a CNC ported version in last year's Engine Masters Challenge and made 711HP with lots of witnesses. 

At this point I think the heads are pretty well a proven item and its just up to me to get them into full scale distribution.  If I were wealthy I'd cast a couple hundred pair and have them on the shelf.  If I were deceptive I could just photoshop a couple hundred pair on a pallet and tell you I had them.  Instead I tell you they are on backorder, tell you how long I think it'll be, and gently discourage deposits - although I have taken a few when folks wanted to "hold their place in line".

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Re: Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2014, 06:52:45 PM »
Hey Barry i have talked to you several times , ordered a few parts from you to the tune of about $ 1500.00 and asked to order your heads 3 or 4 times , and every time you told me not available , or not ready for a production run .. I honestly made 1 call to Rob at Blue oval and ordered a set of B B M heads , and i am having prep d per my motor . I appreciate all you have done for me , your time on the phone with me .. But i wanted to purchase heads and did , sorry if that offended you in any way that was never my intention .. $ 2300.00 may be a gamble to some , but i did nt see it that way and i am excited to have them . I don t see them as foreign , i see them as heads and if i worried about where everything was made i would go nuts , hell my 1970 cougar had a front fender that was stamped  " heco in mexico " and that was the late 70 s ... Barry you will sell your heads and so will B B M , Blue thunder , Robert pond , and Edelbrock they all have a place im thinking . Again Barry thank you for all you have done for me , much appreciated .... Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..