FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: WConley on January 29, 2021, 04:41:32 PM
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Some of you guys may remember the spin test machine I built about a decade (!) ago. We learned a lot about valvetrain dynamics, specifically on the 427 SOHC. The machine is powered by a 5 HP electric motor on a variable frequency drive. It is capable of spinning the camshaft up to 5,500 rpm, corresponding to 11,000 crankshaft rpm. Here are a couple of pictures from back then:
(https://i.ibb.co/VBXyBq6/SOHC-Fixture-4.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/JKJrdqV/SOHC-Fixture-1.jpg)
Here's a YouTube clip of the machine starting up at low speed:
https://youtu.be/-Slp184d0sY
This is a typical clip of a high speed valve event test I did with the stroboscope:
https://youtu.be/XCRrONYwBk0
We learned a lot, and broke lots of valvetrain parts. Since then the machine has sat in a corner of my garage, unloved :-\ Well, it's now back for a second life! I've built a fixture that bolts onto the spin machine which lets me run automotive oil pumps. I use a SOHC stub cam on cam bearings in a frame. The pump mounts to a removable block and engages the cam drive gear, just as on an engine. Oil is recirculated into a reservoir pan. Here are some shots of the latest configuration:
(https://i.ibb.co/hW6KtBn/Fixture1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/W5c6Vx2/IMG-5846.jpg)
The two pictures above are from early in the build. I've added temperature, flow, and pressure measuring instruments, an adjustable valve to set flow restriction, and a dyno torque measuring system. The machine has evolved a bit as I figured out what didn't work >:( Now it seems to behave pretty well!
Here's what it looks like now. You can see the pressure gauges, and the big "FML 250" box is for the turbine flow meter. I went through three other types of flow meters before I finally got this to work!
(https://i.ibb.co/t2BBXpB/IMG-5941.jpg)
Here's the dyno torque arm on the motor, and the display:
(https://i.ibb.co/KDHRkVK/Torque-Sensor.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/vj6hCxz/Torque-Display.jpg)
I also added magnetically mounted splash shields to help keep the oil where it belongs:
(https://i.ibb.co/cct6y6H/IMG-5963.jpg)
Here's a Melling M-57 HV oil pump for the FE, mounted on the drive block and ready to test:
(https://i.ibb.co/Kwq9B9J/IMG-5820.jpg)
Obviously there are a TON of details that I won't bore you with, but I'm happy to answer questions. This has been a big undertaking...
So what does this thing do? I can test an oil pump at any flow restriction and temperature I want, with any type of oil. For the first test, I got a blueprinted Melling M57-HV high volume pump from Precision Oil Pumps. I used conventional 10W-30 oil and set the hot idle pressure at 30 psi, corresponding to a quality new engine build. (Thanks, Brent Lykins for that recommendation!) Oh - Temperature is 200 degrees F. Believe it or not, just running the machine up for several minutes will put that much heat into the oil.
Here's what the flow and pressure look like. There is a bit of internal pump leakage at low speed, which is why the curves jump up off - idle. I re-ran several times to verify this. Also, notice how the flow breaks down at high rpm! This is due to the pump cavitating and aerating the oil:
(https://i.ibb.co/Cn27dkP/Melling-M57-HV-Flow-and-Pressure.png)
(Note that I've also attached the chart so you can read it better...)
I was surprised by the cavitation at the top end. Here's something even more surprising. This is the clear outlet line from the pump under normal operation:
(https://i.ibb.co/6mgMLKY/IMG-5987.jpg)
Here is the same outlet line after the pump has been bypassing / cavitating for several seconds. Those are air bubbles in the oil:
(https://i.ibb.co/NtN1HS3/IMG-5986.jpg)
I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of something like that going into my bearings. To be fair, this is after several seconds at 7,500 rpm. It does take some time for this much air to get into the oil. Still, the flow curve drops off right away which shows that cavitation has started.
Anyway, this is what I'm up to! More to come :) I just got a POP standard volume M-57 pump to run. I'll be doing a comparison of the standard and high volume pumps under the same conditions. Fire away with questions!
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What are the chances that you can run that output through an oil filter? I know the filter will probably go into bypass through much of the circulation but I'm curios to see if the addition of a filter -even in bypass- helps to reduce that aeration.
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Forgot to mention - The M-57 HV pump uses 2.92 HP at 7,500 rpm. The parasitic torque is fairly linear, rising only slightly as rpm goes up. It's a little over 2 ft-lb at the crank.
Note that this parasitic loss includes the crossed gears that drive the pump. They're pretty inefficient, but that is how it's done in our FE's.
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What are the chances that you can run that output through an oil filter? I know the filter will probably go into bypass through much of the circulation but I'm curios to see if the addition of a filter -even in bypass- helps to reduce that aeration.
Yeah it's possible to route through a filter. I don't think this will take the air out, because a lot of it is dissolved in the oil. I've noticed that the oil has to sit still in the pan for several minutes for the air to work itself out the top.
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I was thinking a filter, again even in bypass, would act similarly to a dry sump tank. I clearly don't know that, but just curious if it helps. I can't imagine an engine lasting very long with a mix like that. I know endurance applications use a dry sump not only for superior oil control, but also for the benefits of that big tank.
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I got my limited cavitation training in a class put on by Waterous fire pumps. They had a working cutaway centrifugal pump where cavitation could be induced in different ways. The most obvious was lack of supply for a given impeller speed. The lessons that were driven home were that a pumps capacity changes drastically based on pump rpm, flow and pressure. A single stage fire pump rated for 1500 gpm at 150psi can quickly become a 750 GPM fire pump at 250psi, or deliver a greater than rated volume at an unusable pressure.
Do you feel that the oil pump is cavitating due to lack of supply, or lack of capacity to keep up with flow when the pressure relief opens?
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That is downright slick.
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Gerry - I think it's the time sitting still in the dry sump tank is key to getting air out. There would be so little time sitting in the filter that I don't think we'll see much of an effect.
MRadke - These oil pumps are positive displacement, unlike the centrifugal water pumps. I would guess that when the bypass plunger is opening it creates a very low pressure region in the inlet. This lets dissolved air come out as bubbles. Maybe a pump guru can chime in here...
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Well, there's no denying that is an awesome rig!
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Gerry - I think it's the time sitting still in the dry sump tank is key to getting air out. There would be so little time sitting in the filter that I don't think we'll see much of an effect.
MRadke - These oil pumps are positive displacement, unlike the centrifugal water pumps. I would guess that when the bypass plunger is opening it creates a very low pressure region in the inlet. This lets dissolved air come out as bubbles. Maybe a pump guru can chime in here...
I believe that your theory on the source of the bubbles is spot on. I've actually witnessed it in action.
I realize the difference in the style of the pumps, yet I can help wonder whether a pump designed for higher volume, geared down to run at a lower rpm, might take care of the cavitation issue. The issue of pumping the pan dry could be addressed with restrictors on the pressurized side of the pump.
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Bill, can I send you an oil pump to test? There's a local company that I have always had modify our oil pumps and it would be awesome to know whether it's worthwhile!
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I realize the difference in the style of the pumps, yet I can help wonder whether a pump designed for higher volume, geared down to run at a lower rpm, might take care of the cavitation issue. The issue of pumping the pan dry could be addressed with restrictors on the pressurized side of the pump.
I'm doing some other work on that very question. Still to early to publish, but evidence is pointing to the bypass recirculation feature when the pump reaches its design pressure limit.
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Bill, can I send you an oil pump to test? There's a local company that I have always had modify our oil pumps and it would be awesome to know whether it's worthwhile!
Mike - I think we could arrange something, though I'm not looking to be in the business of testing pumps. It's hard messy work! Shoot me a PM and maybe we can figure out your needs.
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I realize the difference in the style of the pumps, yet I can help wonder whether a pump designed for higher volume, geared down to run at a lower rpm, might take care of the cavitation issue. The issue of pumping the pan dry could be addressed with restrictors on the pressurized side of the pump.
I'm doing some other work on that very question. Still to early to publish, but evidence is pointing to the bypass recirculation feature when the pump reaches its design pressure limit.
The problem that you will have is that if the pump is making turns for 150 psi, and you have it regulated to 80, the volume of oil vented will exceed the capacity of the intake plumbing. If the pump could be designed to give the desired volume and pressure of oil at the maximum intended rev, and not need to be bypassed, cavitation could be avoided. Of course it would still need to provide the minimal pressure needed at idle.
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The problem that you will have is that if the pump is making turns for 150 psi, and you have it regulated to 80, the volume of oil vented will exceed the capacity of the intake plumbing. If the pump could be designed to give the desired volume and pressure of oil at the maximum intended rev, and not need to be bypassed, cavitation could be avoided. Of course it would still need to provide the minimal pressure needed at idle.
Exactly ;) This is the nature of the other work I am doing. You hit the nail on the head.
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Interesting indeed, especially the cavitation discovery.
The Harley XR (racing) engines used a 1/4 speed oil pump which I always attributed to a horsepower loss/gain, but now 40 years later I'm wondering if it wasn't addressing cavitation...
(Could it have anything to do with the relocated pressure relief on the 427's?)
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The biggest problem with the pump when it goes into bypass is that now you've introduced a path on the suction side that is not submerged in the oil(the bypass valve port in the pump body itself)while leakage of oil thru the clearances of the machined parts will be minimal,the same can't be said of air.
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What does the starter motor in the cabinet next to the electric motor do?
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It will be very interesting to compare the power use and flow of the standard pump,are you going to test one of the M-57B hi pressure pumps too?
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Interesting indeed, especially the cavitation discovery.
The Harley XR (racing) engines used a 1/4 speed oil pump which I always attributed to a horsepower loss/gain, but now 40 years later I'm wondering if it wasn't addressing cavitation...
(Could it have anything to do with the relocated pressure relief on the 427's?)
Hmm - Interesting. Not sure on the Harley XR engine but it's possible that they wanted to slow the pump down at race rpm (for cavitation reasons) and that engine doesn't spend much time at idle. As for the 427, this wouldn't be the first time we discovered something that the old-timers already knew! On the original spin machine, I learned why the racers didn't generally use the adjustable SOHC adjusters. They would burn up if turning more than 30 seconds above 6,000 rpm.
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What does the starter motor in the cabinet next to the electric motor do?
The starter was for valvetrain testing on cylinder heads. There's a heavy FE flywheel on the front. With heavy valve springs the 5HP motor didn't have enough torque to get the ball rolling. The starter would kick the flywheel over and build up momentum. From there to motor had plenty to keep going...
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This may be part of the reasoning behind the main galley bypass valve on the HP blocks so that it can recirc excess oil back into the pan instead of the suction of the pump.
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It will be very interesting to compare the power use and flow of the standard pump,are you going to test one of the M-57B hi pressure pumps too?
No immediate plans to test a high pressure pump, though it would be pretty easy to shim the bypass spring on my standard M-57. That would be a nice way to answer some questions about the relationship between bypass and cavitation.
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Have you ever tried a Schumann oil pump? Mr. Schumann is a pretty smart cookie with pumps...
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I also think, much of the air is coming from the clearance between the parts.
I just measured a Melling pump, You have .0025 at the shaft, almost .007 between the housing and rotor and the same, between drive and driven rotor and then the end play is at least .003 - .004, on 3 different pumps, I recently measured.
A pressure leak down or vacuum test might show something.
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Oh - Temperature is 200 degrees F. Believe it or not, just running the machine up for several minutes will put that much heat into the oil.
I assume your measuring the temperature from the reservoir establishing the temperature rise on the entire volume, but perhaps more interesting and relevant is the temperature gain across the pump. In testing we have done with this gerotor style pump at between 60 to 80 P.S.I. averages say, 80 to 110 degrees as I recall with a pumping volume of say, 6 to 8 gals. per minute. As the volume delivered goes up at the same pressure the temperature gain is reduced, this most likely due to the effect of not returning the once pressurised oil back to the inlet side for re-passage. and due to numerable variables in pressures, passage volumes, unit capacities, oil viscosities on one observation can speak for all.
I was surprised by the cavitation at the top end. Here's something even more surprising.
I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of something like that going into my bearings. To be fair, this is after several seconds at 7,500 rpm. It does take some time for this much air to get into the oil.
Yep, that's about the norm! One big variable on the aeration would be the cycle rate of the reservoir volume as as indicated previously the pumping process creates significant heat, obviously indicating violent agitation of the oil and the vapor drawn into the mix needs to be allowed to "float" out in the reservoir before being picked up for another cycle. And the inquiry of the value of the oil filter as a solution is not viable as it is generally located in the closed hi-pressure side of the circuit and until this volume is released to the low-pressure side and allowed to stall in the reservoir it will not escape to the atmosphere. ;)
Scott.
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Scott -
I do have several thermocouples but so far I've only been paying attention to the one at the pump outlet. The reservoir is several degrees cooler, but as you surmise the recycle rate is pretty high (pretty small reservoir). To your point on higher flow showing less heating, the faster the flow through the pump, the less time the pump has to heat up the fluid on each pass.
Yes viscosity has a HUGE effect on flow rate. The flow more than doubles from room temperature up to 200 degrees F.
Frank - Yes that's a good point on the clearances open to air. What I do notice however is a very large increase in aeration as soon as the pump bypasses. Perhaps there's an air leak in the intake side that opens up when the plunger is retracted.
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Dead heading a pump and causing the bypass or relief valve to recirc is one of the quickest ways short of a heating element to heat up an oil sump,in this scenario virtually all of the power used in the pumping operation is transmitted to the oil as heat minus any thing lost to ambient heat loss.We commonly used this method to warm the oil in a lubricating system,but you have to make sure to let the oil circulate normally for a while to allow the aeration to dissipate before starting the machine.
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Scott -
I do have several thermocouples but so far I've only been paying attention to the one at the pump outlet. The reservoir is several degrees cooler, but as you surmise the recycle rate is pretty high (pretty small reservoir). To your point on higher flow showing less heating, the faster the flow through the pump, the less time the pump has to heat up the fluid on each pass.
Yes viscosity has a HUGE effect on flow rate. The flow more than doubles from room temperature up to 200 degrees F.
Frank - Yes that's a good point on the clearances open to air. What I do notice however is a very large increase in aeration as soon as the pump bypasses. Perhaps there's an air leak in the intake side that opens up when the plunger is retracted.
The bypass port I was talking about is the source of possible leakage and will only come into play when the bypass valve opens.
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Dead heading a pump and causing the bypass or relief valve to recirc is one of the quickest ways short of a heating element to heat up an oil sump,in this scenario virtually all of the power used in the pumping operation is transmitted to the oil as heat minus any thing lost to ambient heat loss.We commonly used this method to warm the oil in a lubricating system,but you have to make sure to let the oil circulate normally for a while to allow the aeration to dissipate before starting the machine.
I don't dead-head the pump at all when warming up the oil. I set the restriction for the test at 30 psi, 1,000 rpm, then take the machine up to 4,000 rpm for a few minutes. The pump doesn't bypass at this speed and the oil stays clear through the entire warmup. It's only when I got north of 6,000 rpm with this HV pump that I saw cavitation.
John - You're probably right about the air leak being in the bypass port, but it's not obvious. The visible path for air is sealed by a cup plug.
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ok , so I am giving big points for this thing even if it didnt work as well as it does.... Ironically me and a buddy of mine were having this conversation a few months back how this type of pump was prone to aerating oil and yet we all still get in line to buy and install them. As I recall there is a pump design that doesnt do this but my old brain isnt giving me the answer at the monent...
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A pump design that doesn't recirc bypass oil back into the suction of the pump and instead dumps it back into the sump will be less likely to aerate the oil,but pump manufacturers know that a design with a dump line like that are subject to having a valve put in it by the end user and getting accidently closed or plugged up somehow and causing the pump case to get split open since it is a positive displacement pump.So it is very common for positive displacement designs to have a relief/bypass port that dumps it directly back into the suction to preclude the possibility of the relief path getting blocked.The unfortunate part is that in relief/bypass mode it tends to aerate the oil.While the argument could be made you don't have to worry about that inside of an engine ,I don't see auto manufacturers seeing the need to reinvent the wheel.
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When I was at Holley we were working on the gerotor style fuel pumps - eventually sold under the Volumax name. The lower volume pump would smoothly and cleanly deliver 170 GPH with 1/2 inch feed and outlet lines. When they stepped up gerotor size and motor to get a 250 GPH pump it got noisy as heck and cavitated badly. Adding a second feed line calmed it down and it went well beyond the target volume quietly. The "cure" is inlet passage size/shape/etc.
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Oh thats not a can of worms at all Barry....... 8)
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I ran a Volumax 250 for several years, it did have 2 supply lines, and I couldn’t here a darn thing in that car without mufflers. The pump didn’t lose a pound through the lights at 135 though.
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Will your oil pump test rig accept a 429CJ/SCJ dual entry oil pump?If so it would be interesting to see if it does the same thing.Maybe ford engineers addressed this issue with the next generation,but didn't see the payback for the FE since it was near the end of its life in cars.
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I ran a Volumax 250 for several years, it did have 2 supply lines, and I couldn’t here a darn thing in that car without mufflers. The pump didn’t lose a pound through the lights at 135 though.
Should not have been that loud. I ran one for many years (one of the first ones I suspect). Car is still plumbed for one, but I went Aeromotive A1000 when I went EFI.
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is it possible to observe the oil moving to the pickup before/after bypass happens and any aeriation occuring -- bypass pressure vs point of aeriation rpm occuring --gerotor vs spur gear / drive spur gear with anti-cavation slots ? GREAT TOOL @ EFFORT thanks much p.s. at bypass is pick covered in (good) oil
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It may be worth mentioning that the return line in a dry sump system is set so that the oil entering the tank is spun around the inner circumference of the tank for the supposed reason that the centrifugal force helps remove entrained air. And depending on whose tank you're talking about, there are other features in the tank to help remove air as well.
KS
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Will your oil pump test rig accept a 429CJ/SCJ dual entry oil pump?If so it would be interesting to see if it does the same thing.Maybe ford engineers addressed this issue with the next generation,but didn't see the payback for the FE since it was near the end of its life in cars.
For a different engine family I would have to machine a new pump mount block for the rig. Certainly possible if it makes sense. Still lots to learn from the FE pumps, and I do have a pretty cool trick up my sleeve to address the cavitation issue. More on that in the near future.
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It may be worth mentioning that the return line in a dry sump system is set so that the oil entering the tank is spun around the inner circumference of the tank for the supposed reason that the centrifugal force helps remove entrained air. And depending on whose tank you're talking about, there are other features in the tank to help remove air as well.
KS
Ken - I actually made a return manifold kind of like you describe. It's acrylic and the oil gets flung around the top, dissipating its energy before falling back into the pan. You can kind of see it in this picture. The original intent was to get the oil back into the pan without flying all over the place, but it may help with the air bubbles too as you describe. You can see the oil flying into the left edge. It goes all the way around that top channel:
(https://i.ibb.co/5vJjW52/IMG-5892.jpg)
Oldiron.fe - Yeah it is possible to look at the oil in the pan, but it seems easier to observe the clear pressure lines. It becomes quite apparent when the cavitation starts to occur. You actually get a foggy mist forming from the oil dumping back into the pan! Yes indeed the pickup has plenty of oil during bypass. I made sure of that, and the graph I posted shows a steady 86 psi pressure up at those speeds. The pressure would have certainly been fluctuating if it was sucking air.
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It may be worth mentioning that the return line in a dry sump system is set so that the oil entering the tank is spun around the inner circumference of the tank for the supposed reason that the centrifugal force helps remove entrained air. And depending on whose tank you're talking about, there are other features in the tank to help remove air as well.
KS
KS your absolutely right on the tangential entry on the dry sump tank using centrifugal force to dissipate aeration being effective,we used centrifugal lube oil purifiers to remove contaminates such as water ,metal shavings and dirt ,but was equally effective at dissipating aeration,there was a viewport and you could observe how clean and air free the oil was coming out.
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The return line entry, isn't a centrifuge but, it does give wall area to dissipate the oil and let it flow back, into the reservoir, with less energy and air. Many tanks, also have a screen at that level to also help decrease aeration and to be a upper baffle. In the 60's - 70's, there were all kind of tank shapes, with the return just dumping into the top in many different ways, most all running w/o any problems.
Modern tanks are tall and narrow and don't need much baffling, because of that and since air is much lighter than oil, aerated oil, doesn't have much chance to get to the pickup. We are talking about a column of oil, 8" in diameter, 12 to 14" tall (10 to 12 qt).
All that beside the point for this. In a car, with a pan, you have lots of aerated oil, off the crank, landing on top of the oil, above the pump pickup.
This is a great project and can benefit everyone running a pan, if the cause can be found.
Something else that could benefit us, is the actual oil flow used in a FE at some pressure standard and .0015 and main and rod clearance, then .003 or even .004. It think it would show whether or not we need HV pumps.
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The return line entry, isn't a centrifuge but, it does give wall area to dissipate the oil and let it flow back, into the reservoir, with less energy and air. Many tanks, also have a screen at that level to also help decrease aeration and to be a upper baffle. In the 60's - 70's, there were all kind of tank shapes, with the return just dumping into the top in many different ways, most all running w/o any problems.
Modern tanks are tall and narrow and don't need much baffling, because of that and since air is much lighter than oil, aerated oil, doesn't have much chance to get to the pickup. We are talking about a column of oil, 8" in diameter, 12 to 14" tall (10 to 12 qt).
All that beside the point for this. In a car, with a pan, you have lots of aerated oil, off the crank, landing on top of the oil, above the pump pickup.
This is a great project and can benefit everyone running a pan, if the cause can be found.
Something else that could benefit us, is the actual oil flow used in a FE at some pressure standard and .0015 and main and rod clearance, then .003 or even .004. It think it would show whether or not we need HV pumps.
We certainly don't need HV pumps. I've been using standard volume/standard pressure and standard volume/higher pressure (B) pumps for a very long time. My 352 had a B pump in it and upon teardown, I didn't see anything that stood out to me indicating I needed a high volume.
I will also tell you that a standard volume, high pressure pump will feed VERY excessive clearances.
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ok , so I am giving big points for this thing even if it didnt work as well as it does.... Ironically me and a buddy of mine were having this conversation a few months back how this type of pump was prone to aerating oil and yet we all still get in line to buy and install them. As I recall there is a pump design that doesnt do this but my old brain isnt giving me the answer at the monent...
Titan. But it's a $1000 pump.
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Man, this is neat! Thanks for doing this, WConley. Very interesting stuff. 8)
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I would like to see a HV body with a standard spring. I always thought Ford did it backwards with the B pump. I don't think we need the extra pressure in most cases, but I think the big body is nice for idle pressure.
Funny we can buy a STD, a B (STD With HV spring) and HP (STD with 100 psi spring) and HV, but no HV with STD spring. My guess is they didn't know what to call it LOL LPHV? Who would want low pressure? LOL
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Forgot to mention - The M-57 HV pump uses 2.92 HP at 7,500 rpm. The parasitic torque is fairly linear, rising only slightly as rpm goes up. It's a little over 2 ft-lb at the crank.
Note that this parasitic loss includes the crossed gears that drive the pump. They're pretty inefficient, but that is how it's done in our FE's.
Nice work! When you reference RPM, are you referring to pump RPM or crankshaft RPM?
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Neato Mr Bill! 8) M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!
Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?
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There you go Brent . But when you factor in 5-7K rods and crank and perhaps another 6K in block.... That grand doesnt feel so bad That aerated oil deal can keep a man awake at night.
Conley would you be inclined to give the Titan a spin if someone were to send you one ?
High flow dynamics seems to be the flavor that the 385 boys like.
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Nice work! When you reference RPM, are you referring to pump RPM or crankshaft RPM?
Thanks! You guys are sure making cool eye candy as well!
I'm reporting everything in crankshaft rpm. I can't imagine a geroter pump being very happy at such a high input shaft speed :o
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Conley would you be inclined to give the Titan a spin if someone were to send you one ?
High flow dynamics seems to be the flavor that the 385 boys like.
I sure would! I'm sure we would all like to see how more you get for that kind of cash :)
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I'm reporting everything in crankshaft rpm. I can't imagine a geroter pump being very happy at such a high input shaft speed :o
As I have been made to understand the standard scrolls were intended to operate at say 3000 R.P.M. (pump speed), at something approaching 5000 R.P.M. be prepared for scroll to segment its' self! :o
Scott.
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Hmm - Interesting. Not sure on the Harley XR engine but it's possible that they wanted to slow the pump down at race rpm (for cavitation reasons) and that engine doesn't spend much time at idle. As for the 427, this wouldn't be the first time we discovered something that the old-timers already knew! On the original spin machine, I learned why the racers didn't generally use the adjustable SOHC adjusters. They would burn up if turning more than 30 seconds above 6,000 rpm.
I remember that one. I sent you a custom "double roller" T&D rocker I had them make and ran it along wit my preferred spring package - and stood by "hopin' and prayin'" that I had done the right thing.
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Dead heading a pump and causing the bypass or relief valve to recirc is one of the quickest ways short of a heating element to heat up an oil sump...........
I wouldn't "dead-head" these units at speed particularly H.V. units as I'm not under the impression that the by-pass circuit has the capacity for 100% of the flow volume of the pump; and something will give! :o
Scott.
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Neato Mr Bill! 8) M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!
Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?
Kevin - I'll have to check on the pickup tube. It's nothing special - stock replacement. I am seeing no pressure fluctuations that would indicate starvation though.
Also, running thicker oil will not cause a crazy increase in the load on the oil pump drive (unless you're cold starting it at 30 degrees LOL!) Thicker oil does knock the flow down, but load is tied to pressure. You'll be running in the higher end of the normal pressure range for sure. My tests show that the load torque doesn't move a huge amount in the normal pressure range - maybe 2X. If it was 5X more load then I could see trouble for the gears. Your wiped gear is a head-scratcher...
Are you running that steel gear on an iron cam? That'll cause big problems! I haven't heard of anybody wiping a steel gear in any reasonable amount of time...
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I wouldn't "dead-head" these units at speed particularly H.V. units as I'm not under the impression that the by-pass circuit has the capacity for 100% of the flow volume of the pump; and something will give! :o
Scott.
I can tell you that dead-heading my rig, even at idle, causes drive torque to peg and bad noises to emanate from lots of places. Scott is right - Very unhappy pump!
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I remember that one. I sent you a custom "double roller" T&D rocker I had them make and ran it along wit my preferred spring package - and stood by "hopin' and prayin'" that I had done the right thing.
Oh I remember that well! Here's a little trip down memory lane :) This is the same test rig with the SOHC head mounted, spinning that dual roller rocker arm up to 9,500 crankshaft rpm. You were "hopin' and prayin'" I was next to the thing getting ready to run!
https://youtu.be/5iR65BnOofs
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.......... I don't think we need the extra pressure in most cases,...........
I believe relative to the FE engine the higher pressures were instituted as obviously the oil gallery diameters and plumbing routeing although adequate for the original intentions suffered as engine speeds picked up; and then with the "cross-drilled" crankshaft plumbing, this proves to require greater pressure to overcome the centrifugal forces versus the standard crankshafts, or the more popular today "Straight-Shot" plumbing; so the quickest solution was to just increase the differential across the orifice so to say to increase flow volume within the same area, and overcome centrifugal force. :)
Scott.
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Neato Mr Bill! 8) M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!
Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?
If it was a steel distributor gear with a steel cam, a high volume pump won't kill it.
The biggest issue with distributor gears on Fords is the install height. Under no circumstances should you ever just line the hole up on the new gear and put the pin in. The holes vary from gear to gear and there's a specific install height that has to be held.
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A pump design that doesn't recirc bypass oil back into the suction of the pump and instead dumps it back into the sump will be less likely to aerate the oil..............
............attempting to being directly ingested by the pump. Absolutely! ;D
Put do keep in mind, that the sum of fluid that is within the capacity of the pumping volume, that proves to be in excess of the volume required, not being returned to the inlet side of the pump, is now a volume that must be drawn from the sump; and this increases the velocity rate and a greater pressure drop within the inlet or pick-up tube hence exasperating the potential for cavitation, again! :(
This probably one reason why the 427's received larger pick-up tubes as there appeared the "remote-bypass" in the rear of the block emptying to oil back into the pan. ;)
Scott.
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While I agree that the larger pickup tube is going to be better,the fact that the pump is bypassing indicates that flow is already excess to requirements.As flow requirement increases the bypass will shut and if requirement continues to increases beyond the capacity of the pump pressure will start to drop.This is why when bearing clearances open up enough oil pressure will start to drop,it is also why when years ago in a misguided attempt to restore oil pressure in a worn out engine I installed a HV oil pump it worked like a charm,but unfortunately the worn main bearings allowed the minor rear main seal leak to turn into a major one.
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I wouldn't "dead-head" these units at speed particularly H.V. units as I'm not under the impression that the by-pass circuit has the capacity for 100% of the flow volume of the pump; and something will give! :o
Scott.
I can tell you that dead-heading my rig, even at idle, causes drive torque to peg and bad noises to emanate from lots of places. Scott is right - Very unhappy pump!
Dead heading a pump and causing the bypass or relief valve to recirc is one of the quickest ways short of a heating element to heat up an oil sump...........
I wouldn't "dead-head" these units at speed particularly H.V. units as I'm not under the impression that the by-pass circuit has the capacity for 100% of the flow volume of the pump; and something will give! :o
Scott.
That would indicate that the bypass circuit does not have the capacity to recirc 100% that may be part of the aeration issue during bypass.
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That would indicate that the bypass circuit does not have the capacity to recirc 100% that may be part of the aeration issue during bypass.
Why would the bypass circuit need to have 100% capacity of the pump. Surely a engine would use some of the pumps capacity?
Trying to understand.
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Great work and contribution to the FE world! Thanks you!
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Great work and contribution to the FE world! Thanks you!
Thanks guys for the support! I'm not totally doing this out of the goodness of my heart though. It's needed to develop a new type of pump I'm working on. More on that in the near future.
In the meantime, it's great to share results on our current pump technology. I'm always amazed at what you can learn if you just start measuring stuff!
- Bill
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That would indicate that the bypass circuit does not have the capacity to recirc 100% that may be part of the aeration issue during bypass.
Why would the bypass circuit need to have 100% capacity of the pump. Surely a engine would use some of the pumps capacity?
Trying to understand.
In an application where you don't have to worry about the pump being deadheaded such as a car oil pump it doesn't.In applications such as a lube oil or hydraulic system for a peice of machinery or a large power unit that has lots of piping and manifolding with its attendant valves that uses a positive displacement pump there is a risk of a valve being closed inadvertantly and deadheading the pump which will cause an immediate pressure spike that could damage the pump or worse split the piping causing an extreme fire hazard.In those cases pump manufacturers will commonly build in a bypass/relief system into the pump that will recirc 100% of the capacity of the pump.
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This brings up the old argument of using hi volume oil pumps or not,while the car oil pump will never reach deadhead status as its capacity increasingly exceeds the flow requirements of the engine and the fact that the bypass circuit has a limited capacity,if the volume is high enough you can possibly reach the scenario he saw on his test rig where his drive torque spiked up which could eventually spiral or break the pump drive shaft.So if your engines flow requirements are high enough to require a hi volume pump then you have to do what you need to do,but if the flow requirements are well within the capability of a std. pump then use of a hi volume pump is not only a waste of power,but could also possibly be risky.
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Neato Mr Bill! 8) M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!
Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?
Kevin - I'll have to check on the pickup tube. It's nothing special - stock replacement. I am seeing no pressure fluctuations that would indicate starvation though.
Also, running thicker oil will not cause a crazy increase in the load on the oil pump drive (unless you're cold starting it at 30 degrees LOL!) Thicker oil does knock the flow down, but load is tied to pressure. You'll be running in the higher end of the normal pressure range for sure. My tests show that the load torque doesn't move a huge amount in the normal pressure range - maybe 2X. If it was 5X more load then I could see trouble for the gears. Your wiped gear is a head-scratcher...
Are you running that steel gear on an iron cam? That'll cause big problems! I haven't heard of anybody wiping a steel gear in any reasonable amount of time...
Maybe I shouldn't have described the gear as "roasted". It was more like "worn excessively". The teeth had a good .020 missing from their thickness. Backed my timing off a degree or so. Cam is a Bullet solid roller. I think the gear was a Crane. Went to 10W30 Royal Purple synthetic and things seem happier now. Bearings look better too.
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Neato Mr Bill! 8) M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!
Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?
If it was a steel distributor gear with a steel cam, a high volume pump won't kill it.
The biggest issue with distributor gears on Fords is the install height. Under no circumstances should you ever just line the hole up on the new gear and put the pin in. The holes vary from gear to gear and there's a specific install height that has to be held.
The gear was tight as hell but I pressed it to MSD's spec for the Pro Billet. Set it up in the Bridgeport and punched a completely new pin hole too. Even measured from the distributor pad to the gear pad in the block. Measured the distributor and had .010 clearance. I suspected the gear was soft when I drilled it. Seemed too easy. It was a NOS Crane piece I found on epay. I wish I knew somebody locally with a Rockwell checker. Cam is a Bullet solid roller btw.
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While I agree that the larger pickup tube is going to be better,................
Well, although the pick-up tube (system) ideally would be of say sufficient diameter so as to be capable of supplying fluid to the inlet of the pump at the pumps' greatest pumping rate without restriction or loss in pressure within, keep in mind that as the diameter and length of this increases, so does the pumping or say drawing effort required particularly if lifting function is required as say in a deep sump pan where one may attempt to have greater distance between the oil pool and the crankshaft and revolving components or rear sump pan where the P.U. tube is lengthen. This is also one of the reasons why the original O.E.M. engineering has the pump intended to be submerged below the oil pool level, and as we have tested, the pump delivery is affected notably as the oil level drops in the pan at speed. :o
Scott.
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Ironically me and a buddy of mine were having this conversation a few months back how this type of pump was prone to aerating oil and yet we all still get in line to buy and install them.
If I recall correctly, this "Gerotor" type pump design came from Caterpillar (tractor) of the 1920's - 30's, and it has proven to be, in my opinion a superior design at moderate speeds, those as intended by the O.E. for transportation vehicles; but as the engine R.P.M.'s have risen, particularly in the automotive racing endeavors, well it starts to become a problem.
This thread has brought up the issue with the re-injection of an oil volume within the pumps inlet and yes there is the issue of the high-pressure (relative to the pressure on the other side of the relief and in the area of the return) and heated oil being injected at an angle perpendicular to the appreciated flow volumes' intended path as this can depending on the ratios of intervention create significant turbulence. But this isn't the only issue, as with this oil volume comes vapor, little air bubbles compressed to the high pressure value and then released to the low pressure arena where they literally explode in dimension displacing the fluid volume causing, depending on the sum, perhaps even greater mayhem in causing interruption of homogeneous directional flow, creating an inefficient delivery. And this vapor expansion can be quite violent also leading to an upset of the by-pass valve causing it to fail to regulate as intended including failure to reacquire seating timely, this further being realized as a loss in delivery volume and resultant pressure. :o
This is particularly where the idea of a remote by-pass can be appreciated. ;)
Scott.
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First, way cool!
I have to wonder about using the fixed orifice. It seems to me the faster the engine turns the more oil it's going to be able to flow for a given pressure. Which makes me think getting into cavitation due to excessive bypass may not happen quite as easily as it appears here. At least with these oil pumps.
Also If your really bored :D I'm curious how much a stock filter would bypass if any when cold, full RPM, etc.
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Thank you Bill
I have a short 352 oil pump and a tall 391 oil pump if ya ever wish to test the differences
Should say, the bodies are shorter an taller than a normal pump for any that have not seen them
Ricky.
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First, way cool!
I have to wonder about using the fixed orifice. It seems to me the faster the engine turns the more oil it's going to be able to flow for a given pressure. Which makes me think getting into cavitation due to excessive bypass may not happen quite as easily as it appears here. At least with these oil pumps.
Also If your really bored :D I'm curious how much a stock filter would bypass if any when cold, full RPM, etc.
From what I understand, a fixed orifice is pretty standard for testing oil pumps. I'm also pretty sure the bearing clearances drive the oil flow a lot more than the surface speed. These change when the engine heats up. Sure the journal bearings will pull a bit more oil at higher rpm, but the side clearance leakage is a lot more than this at all speeds.
As for oil filters, that is a whole other thing. Those bypass mostly when the media gets clogged up. They also have primitive bypass valves that vary all over the place with pressure. I'm not really set up to look at those. It would probably require making clear filter housings and mounting the guts to watch the flow. Pretty big project...
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..........a 429CJ/SCJ dual entry oil pump?If so it would be interesting to see if it does the same thing.Maybe ford engineers addressed this issue with the next generation,but didn't see the payback for the FE since it was near the end of its life in cars.
I wasn't at the meetings at Ford Motor Co. and I didn't get the memo either, but my belief is that the 429CJ/SCJ dual entry pump was the first acknowledgement of another failed issue of the Gerotor pump as the speeds picked up, but also coupled to the introduction of the 1.1" versus the .875" length rotor & scroll desired for greater volume delivery due to the greater leakage area within this engine series even versus the FE.
One is often of the impression that the cavitation issue here is due to an insufficient pick-up tube delivery capacity, and although that often is a contributor, along with the previously discussed issue of the the by-pass retry effects, there is still more concern. The real "problem", as I see it anyway, with the Gerotor pump is the presents of 5-lobe scroll & 4-lobe rotor, in that the area being presented as each say chamber is presented to the inlet manifolding of the pump to be filled with fluid is to great as speed picks up for the time element allotted. At lower pump speeds it's O.K., the void presented by the rotor & scroll crosses the opening for the inlet plumbing system, oil flows in, but as the speed increases the time element decreases, the oil's mass precludes it's ability to fill the area so expediently and efficiently, and an additional pressure depression is realized within the pump body section it's self, this being something even less than that realized within the inlet system or pick-up tube. When the rotor & scroll was lengthen from the .875" to the 1.1" as supplied with the 385 series engines the engineers found the issue to be to great to ignore, and I can say from experience the 385 engines definitely display a tendency towards oil pressure loss at speed to a greater degree than even the FE.
With the "dual-inlet" the oil path thru the singular inlet flange is allowed access to both ends of the rotor & scroll chamber within the pump body, hence this effectively shortening the appeared length or distance the oil from either side is required to travel to fill and volume to pass in the allotted time, perhaps effectively doubling this filling rate, well probably not, but at least more efficiently all the same. And I believe this to be of good intention, but production of these have been discontinued with no mention of the change. :(
And then there is the problem with the fact that the chamber voids to be filled are presented in an interrupted or start-stop effect. This means that there isn't just a constant drawing of the oil from the sump, but rather the fluid must accelerate from a standstill to the velocity intended/required to fill the pump rotor & scroll chamber presented then this area is closed, the oil (with "bubbles"!) with perhaps inertia compresses against the blocked passage and even at times with synchronization reverses flow direction, then must be influenced with the next pump chamber void to reverse again! This is probably why one witnessed the "bubbles" exiting the P.U. tube submerged in the effective sump. :o
Scott.
And a fixed orifice bleed won't work as the pumps' delivery rate is not constant, even with R.P.M.s (yeah. I know it's a constant displacement unit), and the engines' bleed rates aren't either! So this requires a dynamic regulation function. ;)
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The crank by it self must "pump" a bit. The centrifugal force on the
oil in the crank from mains out to the crankpins must move a lot
of oil on high rpm
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Conley would you be inclined to give the Titan a spin if someone were to send you one ?
High flow dynamics seems to be the flavor that the 385 boys like.
I sure would! I'm sure we would all like to see how more you get for that kind of cash :)
I will contact them this week to see if I can get one . I wonder if the Rona has dissapeared all the high end oils pumps as well.................. :-\
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Great testing data and very interesting results, Bill. On the dyno I regularly see the oil pressure dropping a bit as the engine exceeds 5500 RPM or so, and the air entrained in the oil when the bypass opens could certainly be a contributing factor. I also recall seeing an Engine Masters episode where they saw the same thing, and reduced the problem by reducing the amount of oil in the pan, the conclusion being that windage from the crank was whipping the oil into a froth and that was causing reduced oil pressure.
Never saw anything like that when I had the dry sump system on my big SOHC; that tank really seems to work. I wonder if you could block the bypass on the stock pump, put a tap in the feed into the oil filter adapter with a pressure relief valve, and then cycle the bypass from that relief valve through a mini dry sump tank and back to the pan. If that would work, it would at least reduce or eliminate the bubbles in the oil going back to the pan...
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Hey guys - little update. I ended up getting a Melling M-57B standard volume pump with the high pressure spring. It seemed to run a heck of a lot smoother than that HV pump, and produced nice flow / pressure with no bypassing or aeration. In fact, it made more pressure at higher rpm than that HV pump curve I posted :o :o Something is wrong...
I was a bit confused so I ran the HV pump again tonight, right after the M-57B. The HV didn't really cavitate as much this time, but flow was down significantly. It also made some strange sounds at higher rpm. I took the pump apart and there is scoring on the rotors and the bottom plate. It seems that I managed to hurt it. I had been running the pump a lot while developing / debugging the rig. I did change the oil a few times, but something seems to have gotten in there.
To be absolutely fair, I'm going to get a new M-57 HV pump this week and run it again. I want to feel comfortable that I'm getting consistent data here. Them's the breaks when trying to learn new things!
- Bill
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There are always unexpected setbacks when doing new engineering work. Ask me how I know this ;D
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Bill, the work that you're doing, and the fact that you choose to report it here are two of the reasons that this board is so head and shoulders above others on the internet. I thank you and salute you!!
KS
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Thanks for the kind words, Ken. All of you guys have created a rare camaraderie here! I'm happy to be a part of the underdog FE community :)
Edit: Jay, this "setback" for me is a $65.00 pump. Somehow I think I'll find the will to carry on LOL! Oh - and folks should check out my long time sig line below. That says it all about engineering new stuff...
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Ironically me and a buddy of mine were having this conversation a few months back how this type of pump was prone to aerating oil and yet we all still get in line to buy and install them.
If I recall correctly, this "Gerotor" type pump design came from Caterpillar (tractor) of the 1920's - 30's, and it has proven to be, in my opinion a superior design at moderate speeds, those as intended by the O.E. for transportation vehicles; but as the engine R.P.M.'s have risen, particularly in the automotive racing endeavors, well it starts to become a problem.
This thread has brought up the issue with the re-injection of an oil volume within the pumps inlet and yes there is the issue of the high-pressure (relative to the pressure on the other side of the relief and in the area of the return) and heated oil being injected at an angle perpendicular to the appreciated flow volumes' intended path as this can depending on the ratios of intervention create significant turbulence. But this isn't the only issue, as with this oil volume comes vapor, little air bubbles compressed to the high pressure value and then released to the low pressure arena where they literally explode in dimension displacing the fluid volume causing, depending on the sum, perhaps even greater mayhem in causing interruption of homogeneous directional flow, creating an inefficient delivery. And this vapor expansion can be quite violent also leading to an upset of the by-pass valve causing it to fail to regulate as intended including failure to reacquire seating timely, this further being realized as a loss in delivery volume and resultant pressure. :o
This is particularly where the idea of a remote by-pass can be appreciated. ;)
Scott.
You bring up a very good point about the volatility of the oil creating vapor bubbles,the turbulent conditions at the suction of the pump during bypass would be conducive to it.It will be interesting to see what the results are of the retest with the new pump will be.
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Hey guys - little update. I ended up getting a Melling M-57B standard volume pump with the high pressure spring. It seemed to run a heck of a lot smoother than that HV pump, and produced nice flow / pressure with no bypassing or aeration. In fact, it made more pressure at higher rpm than that HV pump curve I posted :o :o Something is wrong...
I was a bit confused so I ran the HV pump again tonight, right after the M-57B. The HV didn't really cavitate as much this time, but flow was down significantly. It also made some strange sounds at higher rpm. I took the pump apart and there is scoring on the rotors and the bottom plate. It seems that I managed to hurt it. I had been running the pump a lot while developing / debugging the rig. I did change the oil a few times, but something seems to have gotten in there.
To be absolutely fair, I'm going to get a new M-57 HV pump this week and run it again. I want to feel comfortable that I'm getting consistent data here. Them's the breaks when trying to learn new things!
- Bill
Bill did you ever see any fluctuation in pressure while this was happening?I could see the decrease in flow on the graph you posted but couldn't see a noticeable change in pressure on the graph.Is you pressure indication dampened or undampened?I ask because lacking a flowmeter and a way to have visible indication is there any indication that would show up on the pressure gage to tell that this is happening?After this happened was there a layer of visibly aerated oil in the sump?If so do you think it would show up on a dipstick?I'm looking forward to the results of your retest with the new pump,this can be very helpful in pinpointing this type of oiling problem.
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Hey guys - little update. I ended up getting a Melling M-57B standard volume pump with the high pressure spring. It seemed to run a heck of a lot smoother than that HV pump, and produced nice flow / pressure with no bypassing or aeration. In fact, it made more pressure at higher rpm than that HV pump curve I posted :o :o Something is wrong...
I was a bit confused so I ran the HV pump again tonight, right after the M-57B. The HV didn't really cavitate as much this time, but flow was down significantly. It also made some strange sounds at higher rpm. I took the pump apart and there is scoring on the rotors and the bottom plate. It seems that I managed to hurt it. I had been running the pump a lot while developing / debugging the rig. I did change the oil a few times, but something seems to have gotten in there.
To be absolutely fair, I'm going to get a new M-57 HV pump this week and run it again. I want to feel comfortable that I'm getting consistent data here. Them's the breaks when trying to learn new things!
- Bill
A problem i had noticed on all Mellings pumps, The bottomplate is all to soft,just a piece of mild steel i allways disasemble the pumps and the bottom
plate shows scoring already then, before install ??? And take for example a Mercedes oilpump. When the engine need a rebuild
there is not a sign of wear on the bottom plate. When we still had the bolt factory here in town i made new bottom plates and let them heat treat and
flatgrind the bottom plates, problem solved. But as all the useful industri we had in town it is al gone
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On the dyno I regularly see the oil pressure dropping a bit as the engine exceeds 5500 RPM or so...
Jay, I caught this comment and I'm wondering where the difference would be? Do you think dyno acceleration rate would have anything to do with it?
This is a M57B pump:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50801945432_98f5826eba_z.jpg)
This is an M57HV (ignore the horrible A/F imbalance that we were working on):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50122715708_19bc3fa3f8_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48568404102_30cca00623_z.jpg)
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Brent, I only see it on the real high HP engines, guess I should've said that. On all the dyno mules I tested for my book, it never showed up, but when I started doing 700+ HP stuff it appeared. That was also mostly larger engines with vacuum pumps. I'm inclined to think that the longer strokes will whip the oil in the pan up more, and that aeration of the oil is the culprit. The vacuum pump would add to the problem. Could be other stuff too, including an oil level in the pan that is too high; that's what the Engine Master's episode had concluded. I'm seeing it on the dyno mule I'm running now, and am running 7 quarts of oil in the big Milodon pan. I just drained the oil and cut the filter apart yesterday, and everything looked perfect, so I'm not really worried about it. I'm actually a little gun shy about running less oil, but it could be that would help...
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It would be interesting to see how foaming additives would work. High pressure oil over fuel diesel injectors required a special additive package to be able to control it. Easy to spend your money, but might be worth seeing what an off the shelf modern diesel oil does if it exists after the pump swap
Of course, it may not matter either as the crank may not even notice the bubbles as it gets pushed through, as long as the total oil clearance can maintain clearances at the bearing, but cool stuff.
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]Bill did you ever see any fluctuation in pressure while this was happening?I could see the decrease in flow on the graph you posted but couldn't see a noticeable change in pressure on the graph.Is you pressure indication dampened or undampened?I ask because lacking a flowmeter and a way to have visible indication is there any indication that would show up on the pressure gage to tell that this is happening?After this happened was there a layer of visibly aerated oil in the sump?If so do you think it would show up on a dipstick?I'm looking forward to the results of your retest with the new pump,this can be very helpful in pinpointing this type of oiling problem.
John I am using a damped pressure gauge, which could have been hiding pressure fluctuations. I'm also seeing indications that there may have been something wrong with the original machining of this HV pump. The bottom plate has a pretty good gouge in it (can catch it with a nail), but it's only on one side of the center rotor. That tells me that the bottom plate isn't square to the rotor! The "Heo - hardened" bottom plate couldn't handle it :D
I'll post up some pictures later today. The new HV pump will arrive in a few days and I'll re-run the test.
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Bill, please forgive me for interjecting ancient history into a contemporary conversation but is it, remotely, possible that the witness marks you see on the HV cover plate might be evidence of plate deflection vs. questionable machining? A bit of history, you decide relevance; in '66 when I received my first "Frankenstein" HV pump from H&M it was a standard volume, aluminum housing fitted with FT gears, pass. car drive and, as such, required a machined flat spacer to establish proper clearance for the cover(s). This is where the assembly deviated form present-day thinking; the finished pump was fitted with 2 stacked cover plates bolted to the housing with longer bolts. I never saw the stacked cover plates on anyone else's HV pumps which seems to suggest that, possibly, H&M may have had some proprietary engineering data suggesting cover deflection under certain race conditions. Melling stepped into the market as a supplier of ready-made HV pumps with a single cover plate and quickly became the accepted replacement for FE's. I realize that doubling the cover plates isn't a very elegant solution but it certainly seems it would provide a modicum of stiffness if, in fact, that is a problem. Thanks for your interest and educated approaches to solving our FE problems.
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I wonder if Mr. Garifo is following along. Love to hear a tidbit or two from him, especially regarding his findings as to questionable machining of pumps out there on the market. He see’s a heck of a lot more pumps than we do.
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I don’t know about everyone else but I’m interested in volume at a given psi with all the various Melling pumps versus the blueprinted ones. The suspect M57HV makes me wonder....
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Hey Bill, very nice work!! We have been making the inlet and pick-up tube bigger for a long time on high revving race pumps. I think it helps with the cavitation. It will also take less power to turn it. It would be neat to see if it shows verifiable returns. I just did it with "feeling" the resistance on my drill motor and observing bearings over time, and I don't have bearing trouble. I have wondered if an external bypass feature would help.......similar to the return line on EFI, as long as the supply is healthy. Very interesting!!
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This is one method that I have been experimenting with for dyno testing different pressures vs horsepower loss or gain. I also open up the oil passages, blend them with as smooth a radius as possible without weakening the pump housing, polish the gears, remove any excess housing clearances, and loc-tite the bolts. With this modification, I can move the by-pass plunger spring up to ~.400" travel. Joe-JDC
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The pressure distribution on the oil pump will side load the rotors - causing one sided wear. Melling addressed the issue with some of their SBC race pumps by extending the shaft into the cover.
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Bill, please forgive me for interjecting ancient history into a contemporary conversation but is it, remotely, possible that the witness marks you see on the HV cover plate might be evidence of plate deflection vs. questionable machining? A bit of history, you decide relevance; in '66 when I received my first "Frankenstein" HV pump from H&M it was a standard volume, aluminum housing fitted with FT gears, pass. car drive and, as such, required a machined flat spacer to establish proper clearance for the cover(s). This is where the assembly deviated form present-day thinking; the finished pump was fitted with 2 stacked cover plates bolted to the housing with longer bolts. I never saw the stacked cover plates on anyone else's HV pumps which seems to suggest that, possibly, H&M may have had some proprietary engineering data suggesting cover deflection under certain race conditions. Melling stepped into the market as a supplier of ready-made HV pumps with a single cover plate and quickly became the accepted replacement for FE's. I realize that doubling the cover plates isn't a very elegant solution but it certainly seems it would provide a modicum of stiffness if, in fact, that is a problem. Thanks for your interest and educated approaches to solving our FE problems.
Very good point,and to add to it Holman Moody evidently thought enough of this issue to engineer a new bottom plate for their later kits I've seen them and they are round and thicker than normal in the middle and the outer perimeter has an extremely thick flange machined into it.
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The pressure distribution on the oil pump will side load the rotors - causing one sided wear. Melling addressed the issue with some of their SBC race pumps by extending the shaft into the cover.
this wouldn't be hard to do, if there was a source of long drive shafts.
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The pressure distribution on the oil pump will side load the rotors - causing one sided wear. Melling addressed the issue with some of their SBC race pumps by extending the shaft into the cover.
This is A LOT of wear! That gouge is about 0.012" deep. The rotor is also noticeably loose in its bore compared to the M-57B pump I just tested. At first I thought it was squareness of the pump bottom surface relative to the input shaft bore, but I was checking relative to a wonky bore. Clearly this pump is toast. You can move the inner rotor back and forth against the outer rotor, which explains the funny noises I heard. Have to figure out why...
(https://i.ibb.co/181BKGf/IMG-6029.jpg)
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This is one method that I have been experimenting with for dyno testing different pressures vs horsepower loss or gain. I also open up the oil passages, blend them with as smooth a radius as possible without weakening the pump housing, polish the gears, remove any excess housing clearances, and loc-tite the bolts. With this modification, I can move the by-pass plunger up to ~.400" travel. Joe-JDC
Joe - That's pretty sweet! I can see that these pumps can use plenty of detailing...
- Bill
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Hey Bill, very nice work!! We have been making the inlet and pick-up tube bigger for a long time on high revving race pumps. I think it helps with the cavitation. It will also take less power to turn it. It would be neat to see if it shows verifiable returns. I just did it with "feeling" the resistance on my drill motor and observing bearings over time, and I don't have bearing trouble. I have wondered if an external bypass feature would help.......similar to the return line on EFI, as long as the supply is healthy. Very interesting!!
Blair -
Anything you can do to reduce inlet restriction is a good thing. I've also been discussing the "timing" of inlet and outlet ports with Mike Brunson. It looks like there is some gold to be mined there, as you must know. I'm going to be looking further into this...
- Bill
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Sounds like we have designed a super duty FE oil pump by committee...
An extended shaft working through an extra thick hardened cover. With revised inlet port locations, a much larger inlet path, and an external bypass.
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Bill -- Nice setup. I go away for the weekend and I miss posting. I have seen alot of this stuff . There are fixes to some and not so much for others. Let me tackle a couple of these. (1) Cover plate wear: This is from the sharp edges of the "out of the box" pump when the gears side load. Fix is to better prep things, ie, Me. And or change the center gear and cover plate to the supported version like Barry R mention. Melling has a ton of interchangeability in Ford parts. I tried years ago to get the parts from them, but they refused and threatened Me that I was becoming a competitor. I even tried to order a private label through them, but got refused. I have made better the way I and you guys deserve. But I can only make 1 or 2 a year as the exact spare parts I need get recycled, since Melling wont supply me. (2) Foaming: bypassing will do this. Like Jay said. Don't run constant 7000 rpm right at the bypass zone. If so change the spring and or more distance. Like Cobra plumbing through remotes and oil coolers and back, will get rid of enough before hitting the bearings. sleep at night.
Doug aka pumpbldr
Precision Oil Pumps
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Some of this could be made as a drop in . I am sitting here looking at the mill. A 1/2 cover with a receiver socket in it to receive a longer stud coming out of the center of the rotor . That would solve that part of it pretty quick. Wouldnt need a longer drive shaft or anything other than whats already offered.
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Bill, please forgive me for interjecting ancient history into a contemporary conversation but is it, remotely, possible that the witness marks you see on the HV cover plate might be evidence of plate deflection vs. questionable machining? A bit of history, you decide relevance; in '66 when I received my first "Frankenstein" HV pump from H&M it was a standard volume, aluminum housing fitted with FT gears, pass. car drive and, as such, required a machined flat spacer to establish proper clearance for the cover(s). This is where the assembly deviated form present-day thinking; the finished pump was fitted with 2 stacked cover plates bolted to the housing with longer bolts. I never saw the stacked cover plates on anyone else's HV pumps which seems to suggest that, possibly, H&M may have had some proprietary engineering data suggesting cover deflection under certain race conditions. Melling stepped into the market as a supplier of ready-made HV pumps with a single cover plate and quickly became the accepted replacement for FE's. I realize that doubling the cover plates isn't a very elegant solution but it certainly seems it would provide a modicum of stiffness if, in fact, that is a problem. Thanks for your interest and educated approaches to solving our FE problems.
Back in the late '60s, when I was working at T&C Livonia, those of us with a drag-race interest and working on FEs routinely used a rebuild kit for an FT for its 'deeper' guts and made an extension plate from a cut-off section of another pump body. We also used the cover plates from both pumps and longer bolts to hold things together. Several departments were called on for 'government work' to do such things as polish gears, lap the spacers and so on. Uncle Henry was very good to us. :)
KS
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Bill -- Nice setup. I go away for the weekend and I miss posting. I have seen alot of this stuff ...
Doug - Great to hear from an expert. Your confirmation of these issues gives me confidence during this early phase of stumbling. I'll keep plugging away and posting what I find. Thanks!
- Bill
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Some of this could be made as a drop in . I am sitting here looking at the mill. A 1/2 cover with a receiver socket in it to receive a longer stud coming out of the center of the rotor . That would solve that part of it pretty quick. Wouldnt need a longer drive shaft or anything other than whats already offered.
It may come to something like that. I do have a couple of tricks that I want to try first :)
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The pressure distribution on the oil pump will side load the rotors - causing one sided wear. Melling addressed the issue with some of their SBC race pumps by extending the shaft into the cover.
This is A LOT of wear! That gouge is about 0.012" deep. The rotor is also noticeably loose in its bore compared to the M-57B pump I just tested. At first I thought it was squareness of the pump bottom surface relative to the input shaft bore, but I was checking relative to a wonky bore. Clearly this pump is toast. You can move the inner rotor back and forth against the outer rotor, which explains the funny noises I heard. Have to figure out why...
(https://i.ibb.co/181BKGf/IMG-6029.jpg)
Never had a melling pump that was square machined :( twist a new one by hand without oil, open it up and
you see that the rotor scratched the cover in one spot....The pic you show here is what i found in every melling
pump i opened up. In my eyes they are junk....but whats the alternativ
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I wonder if you could block the bypass on the stock pump, put a tap in the feed into the oil filter adapter with a pressure relief valve,
Yep, a remote by-pass can be plumbed a number of ways defeating the requirement at the pump itself. ;)
.....and then cycle the bypass from that relief valve through a mini dry sump tank and back to the pan. If that would work, it would at least reduce or eliminate the bubbles in the oil going back to the pan...
The remote sump tank is fine, particularly in instances where the existing oil pan sump section is of questionable execution or capacity, but solely as such is perhaps excessive complication as this execution would probably involve an increased oil volume it would probably be that that lent itself to the greatest value as the cycle rate of the total oil volume would be reduced, this presenting the greater opportunity from the vapor to self purge, which is one of the intentions of the typical oil sump (pan), but still perhaps one will form "stages" of separation.
And as stated previously, and oil reservoir that is greater in vertical dimension will do better at vapor separation as the heavier oil liquid will sink as the lighter vapors will rise, and with a greater volume of material reducing the cycle rate, as such permitting a greater time element this promoting a more thorough result; all this assuming you are drawing from the bottom of course. :)
Scott.
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Tried calling Titan and got a message saying they are out until after the holidays.... Sent a mail inquiring about the pump.
Now as far as this melling goes.... I guess this is just one of those things you never really think about. Or I hadnt at least , but I have one torn down here on the bench now and the design on this thing is garbage honestly. I suppose the price does indeed reflect what you are getting but from an engineering standpoint its horrible.
This unsupported end is the worst of it all and so easy to fix honestly...
Yeah so now I am ordering a 5/16 Rotary Broach , Thanks Conley , this is all your fault ya know... 8)
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Thanks Conley , this is all your fault ya know... 8)
LOL
I can just see the suits at Melling. Our FE sales were great then all the sudden pfft! ;D
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Yeah im not trying to be mean , I am told that I am "Brash" on a regular basis . These things have been working for many years and doing what they do , But if your looking for issues you gotta start right there . There is no way in hell that thing doesnt cause cavitation just flopping around loose in there like that.... No flippin way... I mean its fairly tight in the upper sleeve that supports it but fairly tight probably turns into a sloppy mess when this thing is at full load in the upper RPM range. Just the nature of how it works will make it start bouncing...
But yeah , its all his fault....
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Would a spur gear pump work any better?
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Would a spur gear pump work any better?
I don't think so but, maybe a vane pump?
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A problem i had noticed on all Mellings pumps, The bottomplate is all to soft,just a piece of mild steel......................When we still had the bolt factory here in town i made new bottom plates and let them heat treat and flatgrind the bottom plates, problem solved.
Note that different applications may be of a steel stamping while others may be of a casting. We hand lap to aid in squaring and establishing flat the bottom of the pump bodies and the cover plates, along with the rotor & scroll. We have in some applications had the plates nitrited to reduce the galling (but our local heat-treating establishment has closed-up! :( ) and yes as stated have previously doubled them up with say a non-treated backup (now you have to surface the first plate on both sides!) and longer bolts (check pan clearance!) But this was mostly for the endurance engines or when one is requiring an increased pressure (100 P.S.I.+) application. I never established, that at standard pressures, for fact that the covers were bowing significantly, as on observations perhaps the most one was accomplishing was perhaps reducing the oil seepage rate, but we were trying to "cover" all the bases so to speak, and I agree in that that thin little plate sure doesn't look to impressive. :o
Scott.
This is A LOT of wear! That gouge is about 0.012" deep. The rotor is also noticeably loose in its bore compared to the M-57B pump I just tested. At first I thought it was squareness of the pump bottom surface relative to the input shaft bore, but I was checking relative to a wonky bore. Clearly this pump is toast. You can move the inner rotor back and forth against the outer rotor, which explains the funny noises I heard. Have to figure out why...
(https://i.ibb.co/181BKGf/IMG-6029.jpg)
I believe you mentioned that you "dead-headed" pump in testing - that will do what your looking at, for sure! ;)
............is it, remotely, possible that the witness marks you see on the HV cover plate might be evidence of plate deflection vs. questionable machining?
I believe although all fault often cannot be placed on a singular door step, and there maybe "some" defection in the plate, thou we have witnessed no significant change in this wear pattern with heavier covers, and since this wear pattern is (in my experience) most always most appreciable on the high pressure side in rotation of the rotor & scroll to me this indicating that as the rotor & scroll is attempting to force oil upward the same force is attempting to drive them out the bottom, and since there is clearance about the cicumference of the scroll and the locating shaft of the rotor coupled to an end-thrust in both to the housing and cover, these are allowed to cock in their relationships in reaction to the load. :)
Also the 385 series engine is another application where the rotor shaft extends in to the cover. ;)
Scott.
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But yeah , its all his fault....
Glad to be of service ;D
Seriously, I got interested in oil pumps precisely for this reason. The technology has stagnated - been on autopilot for decades. Yes Frank, a vane pump will work better but they are very expensive and delicate. Some high-end engines are using those now.
This will be interesting to see play out. I’ve got some of my own ideas in the works. I’m also interested to see what that rotary broach produces!
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Scott - I did briefly dead-head the pump at low speed a couple of times, while calibrating my torque load cell. I also noticed a pretty good scar on the pump body bore, indicating something got ingested. I’m not going to totally blame the pump design. I may be just as much to blame!
New pump coming soon. Then we’ll see where we are.
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Would a spur gear pump work any better?
Royce, from what I understand spur gear pumps have significantly less capacity, especially at lower rpm. I read that this is the reason the manufacturers have gone away from them.
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Would a spur gear pump work any better?
Many feel so! But they won't draw as well, this due to the lack of the previously discussed larger chamber pressure depressions being presented as in the Gerotor pump; and they beat and foam the oil to a greater degree also.
But they aren't as tendent to locking when plagued with the ingestion of foreign particulate, but once such happens they will continue to self-disintegrate polluting the oil supplied with their own particulate, but if on the late lap of the 500 miler and something gives up in your engine, the pump might consume it, spit it out, and keep going a little bit longer. ::)
Scott.
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http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3977.msg42219#msg42219
Scroll down to se my new pump not installed yet and already scored and not
machined in a right angle.
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A problem i had noticed on all Mellings pumps, The bottomplate is all to soft,just a piece of mild steel......................When we still had the bolt factory here in town i made new bottom plates and let them heat treat and flatgrind the bottom plates, problem solved.
Note that different applications may be of a steel stamping while others may be of a casting. We hand lap to aid in squaring and establishing flat the bottom of the pump bodies and the cover plates, along with the rotor & scroll. We have in some applications had the plates nitrited to reduce the galling (but our local heat-treating establishment has closed-up! :( ) and yes as stated have previously doubled them up with say a non-treated backup (now you have to surface the first plate on both sides!) and longer bolts (check pan clearance!) But this was mostly for the endurance engines or when one is requiring an increased pressure (100 P.S.I.+) application. I never established, that at standard pressures, for fact that the covers were bowing significantly, as on observations perhaps the most one was accomplishing was perhaps reducing the oil seepage rate, but we were trying to "cover" all the bases so to speak, and I agree in that that thin little plate sure doesn't look to impressive. :o
Scott.
This is A LOT of wear! That gouge is about 0.012" deep. The rotor is also noticeably loose in its bore compared to the M-57B pump I just tested. At first I thought it was squareness of the pump bottom surface relative to the input shaft bore, but I was checking relative to a wonky bore. Clearly this pump is toast. You can move the inner rotor back and forth against the outer rotor, which explains the funny noises I heard. Have to figure out why...
(https://i.ibb.co/181BKGf/IMG-6029.jpg)
I believe you mentioned that you "dead-headed" pump in testing - that will do what your looking at, for sure! ;)
............is it, remotely, possible that the witness marks you see on the HV cover plate might be evidence of plate deflection vs. questionable machining?
I believe although all fault often cannot be placed on a singular door step, and there maybe "some" defection in the plate, thou we have witnessed no significant change in this wear pattern with heavier covers, and since this wear pattern is (in my experience) most always most appreciable on the high pressure side in rotation of the rotor & scroll to me this indicating that as the rotor & scroll is attempting to force oil upward the same force is attempting to drive them out the bottom, and since there is clearance about the cicumference of the scroll and the locating shaft of the rotor coupled to an end-thrust in both to the housing and cover, these are allowed to cock in their relationships in reaction to the load. :)
Also the 385 series engine is another application where the rotor shaft extends in to the cover. ;)
Scott.
When i say to soft metal in the cover i don't talk about it bowing of the pressure but to soft so
the rotor galling the cover. The reason i used to make a thicker cover was to minimice the warpage
from heat treating. I don't know the terminology in English, but you "carb" the surface to get a really
hard surface then grind it therefor you cant have much warpage because the hardness just go so deep
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Would a spur gear pump work any better?
It is the quality on the pump thats wrong not the type
i have opened Mercedes pumps that had 450000 miles
under the belt and not a scratch on the endcover
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http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3977.msg42219#msg42219
Scroll down to se my new pump not installed yet and already scored and not
machined in a right angle.
Yes Heo - That is what the new M-57B standard volume pump looks like after five minutes of run time. To me that is normal and good. No machined groove!
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You can hand lap and square up and enlarge and smooth all you want , that rotor is still going to have an unsupported side load that is just made worse by its own design. It is indeed its own worse enemy . Having 4 lobes you are going to get that pop pop pop pop over and over pushing away from the load and cocking the shaft and rotor at a frequency which I am gonna say will help with cavitation.
The fix here seems simple if the dimms on the pumps are consistent . Say does one cover plate bolt onto 10 other pumps with no alignment issues . There is really no register for that cover and that is an issue in itself . From just some quick measurements it looks like the rotor shaft should be lengthened to around 3" giving it 3/4" sticking out the bottom of the rotor to then plug into a bushing or bearing in the 3/4" cover . Of course it would only need to be 3/4 in the area of the shaft and the rest could be milled off leaving a protrusion in the exterior of the cover.
Im just thinking out loud here as I gather up scrap . The rotor shouldnt be coming in contact with the cover at all and the cover material shouldnt matter as long as it doesnt bow.
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http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3977.msg42219#msg42219
Scroll down to se my new pump not installed yet and already scored and not
machined in a right angle.
Yes Heo - That is what the new M-57B standard volume pump looks like after five minutes of run time. To me that is normal and good. No machined groove!
yes but that pump is not instaled yet only twisted by hand and scratches that snag your nail
If you take a file to the cover, it files just like cold drawn sheetmetal. But take many oem pumpcovers
a file almost dont leave a mark on the cover or the gears/rotor. I have a Mellings Cleveland pump
out in the shop, totaly toast. Cars total milage 50000 miles original FE freeze cracked in 74 when
Ford Put in a 400 Cleveland. Someone put in a Melling HV pump after that and the car have
not been driven sine early 80s so give it 30000 miles and totaly toast...i shall take a file to the
gears tomorrow and se. Had been interesting to heat treat a cover and gears and test it in the OP dyno
But since the bolt factory is gone i cant suply you with a set
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Thanks Heo! I actually have some tool steel and a CNC milling machine. Could be of some use, especially as the ideas keep popping out about a pilot-supported rotor.
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Man you have a CNC machine right there . Make some really gourmet stuff and do a one piece rotor with shaft . Stick it in the lathe after and run the broach in there to get the hex and you are done. Then whip up a fat bottom plate with a bearing or bushing and you are a millionaire...... 8)
Attached is a cover from an HV that had maybe 15 passes on it . Came out of a running CJ with good mains and rods and aside from the rear cam bearings being screwy it was fine . That cover doesnt look fine...
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No that cover doesn’t look so hot... As for manufacturing kits for oil pumps, I don’t see enough demand to justify the cost and time. I make my living designing stuff. Every time I try to make things, I end up making Home Depot greeter wages!
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LOL , thats the suffering for the greater good man......THink about how many lives you would improve !!!! 8)
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You can hand lap and square up and enlarge and smooth all you want , that rotor is still going to have an unsupported side load that is just made worse by its own design. It is indeed its own worse enemy . Having 4 lobes you are going to get that pop pop pop pop over and over pushing away from the load and cocking the shaft and rotor at a frequency which I am gonna say will help with cavitation.I have recently worked on 3 different pumps. Aluminum 302, Melling 302 and a melling FE. Dimensionally the aluminum pump was best. The cast iron pumps, were off up to .0015 in depth, side to side. I use a depth mic and measure 4 places. Then square them up with a bench stone and make sure that they are no more than .003 end clearance. I took the alum one down to min .0015. All the covers were cast iron and I resurface them.
The fix here seems simple if the dimms on the pumps are consistent . Say does one cover plate bolt onto 10 other pumps with no alignment issues . There is really no register for that cover and that is an issue in itself . From just some quick measurements it looks like the rotor shaft should be lengthened to around 3" giving it 3/4" sticking out the bottom of the rotor to then plug into a bushing or bearing in the 3/4" cover . Of course it would only need to be 3/4 in the area of the shaft and the rest could be milled off leaving a protrusion in the exterior of the cover.
Im just thinking out loud here as I gather up scrap . The rotor shouldnt be coming in contact with the cover at all and the cover material shouldnt matter as long as it doesnt bow.
This is basically what I would also do but, I don't think the shaft would need to be longer than 1/2". Aluminum is a pretty good bearing material so, I would first let it run with .001 clearance in the cover and see how that holds up. Replace with bronze if it doesn't.
With the support you will need 2 dowel pins but, there is no room to put them in the housing. What you can do in that case, is use 5/16 shoulder bolts (1/4x20 thread), in 2 screw holes, inline with the thrust direction and use a size for size fit. Not a big expense to try it out.
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Correct and that would make the shaft 3" overall in length , its roughly 2.5" now . That is , if you were doing just a shaft instead of a one piece billet rotor.. I am hacking on a 3/4" hunk of AL right now.
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I am hacking on a 3/4" hunk of AL right now.
Ill be curious to see what you come up with 8)
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No that cover doesn’t look so hot... As for manufacturing kits for oil pumps, I don’t see enough demand to justify the cost and time. I make my living designing stuff. Every time I try to make things, I end up making Home Depot greeter wages!
A friend, who happens to Crew Chief for me at the races, always says, "why would I want to pay Summit $50.00 for that, when I can make one in 8 hours?"
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When i say to soft metal in the cover i don't talk about it bowing of the pressure but to soft so
the rotor galling the cover. The reason i used to make a thicker cover was to minimice the warpage
from heat treating. I don't know the terminology in English, but you "carb" the surface to get a really
hard surface then grind it therefor you cant have much warpage because the hardness just go so deep
No argument here, and having the standard production pieces nitrited worked well for us, as we didn't have to manufacture anything and I didn't have to explain why we needed ex-number of more dollars because ..........! I would lap them flat, send them out for nitriting and then re-lap them down again when returned generally not warped excessively as long as the heat-treater individually hung them and didn't just throw them in the bottom of the basket and pile other stuff on top. I would always double-up on the plates when incorporating the nitrited plates on pump assembly if only because of fear that the these pieces might have become to brittle (as these would be batched with other materials being treated simultaneously and being small/thin relative to much of the rest and no real metallurgy inspection I feared they might have become perhaps a little "over-cooked"! :-\ ) and perhaps might fail (crack) if not for an additional support provided by the more malleable standard piece; which most commonly where used "take-offs" from pumps being discarded, and I always scalped them before scrapping the rest.
But back in the hey-day of the FE (and even currently) it had/has not been unpopular to shim the bypass springs in order to provide 110-120 lbs. of pressure, this even at times at operating temperature in competition, (you wouldn't rev. the engine on a cold start-up as the oil filter would at minimum " blow-a-gasket! :o ) and I believe this was felt by some in the time to create a force factor that could actually warp the cover, this leading to an unappreciated external pump leakage loss, and an end clearance increase between the rotor & scroll and the upper housing one or both leading to a realized pressure loss; hence the previous statement by another concerning an experience with a product from Holman/Moody "in-the-day" (who may have actually established benefit, versus myself who was only following the "monkey-see-monkey-do" engineering process ::) ), of the practice to double-up on the covers as a cheap quick fix, and this observation leading to the fabrication later by the better financed individules of sturdier units, which I have seen in both steel and aluminum. :)
Scott.
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The fix here seems simple if the dimms on the pumps are consistent . Say does one cover plate bolt onto 10 other pumps with no alignment issues . There is really no register for that cover and that is an issue in itself . From just some quick measurements it looks like the rotor shaft should be lengthened to around 3" giving it 3/4" sticking out the bottom of the rotor to then plug into a bushing or bearing in the 3/4" cover . Of course it would only need to be 3/4 in the area of the shaft and the rest could be milled off leaving a protrusion in the exterior of the cover.
Im just thinking out loud here as I gather up scrap . The rotor shouldnt be coming in contact with the cover at all and the cover material shouldnt matter as long as it doesnt bow.
The pumps have been in my experience relative consistent in that which the manufacturer feels is important, and as there is no alignment instrument for the covers beyond of limitations of the bolt holes versus the fasteners the covers swap about just fine. On the units which due exhibit the extended shaft protrusion into the cover it is that shaft to cover relationship that locates the cover as it is manufactured, this for at least the 385 series engine applications as I'm aware. But this is less than ideal as upon assembly of these units, one snugs the cover fasteners and then bumps it about establishing the freest turning of the rotor & scroll then torques the fasteners and rechecks the turning effort again. Is this truly a proper endeavor in locating engineering? Well probably better than nothing, but truly registering cover and then boring the shaft support in the cover with tooling located off the existing housing shaft bore would be better, and would also make each cover unique to each pump housing.
Note that although utilizing the bolt shank for alignment sounds good for something such as furniture making, if you actually measure closely, these will rarely be truly concentric with the turning thread in the hole, this at least not to the accuracy I think we are considering here anyway. ;) And then the question of how critical has the manufacturer been in the location of the threaded holes in the pump body, somehow I doubt their positions of relative consistency to one another in the singular example in comparison to other examples would prove overly impressive as there is no need for such a critical dimension in the manufacturers' engineering; but this again may only be an indicator if utilized of how each cover to pump body would prove unique. :)
Scott.
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[
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There is indeed one unused hole that could be used to register the thing but not much else thats reliable. Pinning would of course make them unique unless a fixture was made . I have a huge hunk of cover sitting here now I just have to make a drill guide on the lathe for the center hole then decide on making the new rotor shaft all the same OD or make the bottom larger so when the rotor is pressed down it stops at the desired depth. . This one of course will get its four holes punched in to match the cover I have and then bolted down and the center hole for the shaft bored.
I take it the consensus on cover clearance for the rotor is just shy of touching ?
Its still a bit rough... But it will smooth out
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[/quote]
When i say to soft metal in the cover i don't talk about it bowing of the pressure but to soft so
the rotor galling the cover. The reason i used to make a thicker cover was to minimice the warpage
from heat treating. I don't know the terminology in English, but you "carb" the surface to get a really
hard surface then grind it therefor you cant have much warpage because the hardness just go so deep
[/quote]Are you talking about carburizing?I believe thats the process where its heated with a oxy aceteline torch and then they cut the oxygen back and play the sooty flame over the surface?
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When i say to soft metal in the cover i don't talk about it bowing of the pressure but to soft so
the rotor galling the cover. The reason i used to make a thicker cover was to minimice the warpage
from heat treating. I don't know the terminology in English, but you "carb" the surface to get a really
hard surface then grind it therefor you cant have much warpage because the hardness just go so deep
[/quote]Are you talking about carburizing?I believe thats the process where its heated with a oxy aceteline torch and then they cut the oxygen back and play the sooty flame over the surface?
[/quote]
Yes you can do it by hand that way. At the boltfactory it was done in owens with a high carb atmosphere on selftaping screws
and things like that that needed a hard surface
You can also heat the object orange, rub it with Cow hooves and quench in water. Thats the old blacksmith way,and it does not smell like strawberries. The burning hooves carburize the surface. It is most practical to remove hooves from the cow first ;D
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"You can also heat the object orange, rub it with Cow hooves and quench in water. Thats the old blacksmith way,and it does not smell like strawberries. The burning hooves carburize the surface. It is most practical to remove hooves from the cow first "
I tried that method once, cow kept kicking me. Now I feel stupid.
That's funny Heo !
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Slight difference between the two.
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You can also heat the object orange, rub it with Cow hooves and quench in water. Thats the old blacksmith way,and it does not smell like strawberries. The burning hooves carburize the surface. It is most practical to remove hooves from the cow first ;D
I think you have just won the internet!
It's gonna take me at least a couple hours to get over that one... ;D ;D ;D
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Actually if you look at an old gunsmithing book on how case hardening is done, you put strips of leather around the part then heat it in a sealed container.. Now a cow hoof.. That must be a Scandinavian thing lol.. I'll ask some of the old Swede blacksmiths around here about that
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I think you have just won the internet!
That one made me spit up my coffee a little bit :D
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Do you remove all 4 hooves at the same time, so they don’t limp?
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Actually if you look at an old gunsmithing book on how case hardening is done, you put strips of leather around the part then heat it in a sealed container.. Now a cow hoof.. That must be a Scandinavian thing lol.. I'll ask some of the old Swede blacksmiths around here about that
Well there is several ways to carb the surface. I come from a long line of blacksmiths so
i have some literature and mouth to mouth learned tricks but dont want to take this tread
hostage with that. But here is one, the perfeckt aneal temperature for a spring is when
you rub a piece of birsch against the spring and it feels slippery
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Do you remove all 4 hooves at the same time, so they don’t limp?
Well i usualy start with removing life from the cow ;)
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You can also heat the object orange, rub it with Cow hooves and quench in water. Thats the old blacksmith way,and it does not smell like strawberries. The burning hooves carburize the surface. It is most practical to remove hooves from the cow first ;D
I think you have just won the internet!
It's gonna take me at least a couple hours to get over that one... ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That's some funny stuff,but it's also kind of cool it makes you wonder what kind of stuff they tried to use to treat metal in the old days,and how did they find out about it by accident or trial and error?
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That's some funny stuff,but it's also kind of cool it makes you wonder what kind of stuff they tried to use to treat metal in the old days,and how did they find out about it by accident or trial and error?
I have thoght that way through the years, How and why did they found out
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Yet more reasons to just read every single post on this forum- it'll make me think and learn something every time. I truly appreciate the access and shared knowledge here!!
It seems to me that you'll always end up with scarring on the cover from the main shaft and rotor just due to gravity being on at all times. Would it be possible to spring load the extended shaft to alleviate the weight of the rotor onto the cover? Maybe a Torrington in the cover? Maybe an ever so slight helical cut to the rotor as to create "lift" inside the pump so these rotating parts don't drag? What about a small groove on the main shaft with clip or pin to hold it up off the cover?
I also wondered about trying different progressive rate springs on the bypass.
Bill, have you tested it with a longer rear sump pickup yet? It'd be interesting to see different i.d. and length pickup tubes too.
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Jeff -
I'd have to totally tear up my test rig in order to test a long pickup tube. If you check out the photos in my first post, the pump drive fixture is designed to surround a reservoir pan and hold the pump / pickup in that space. I guess it would be possible to put a really long reservoir pan on there to handle the long pickup.
I never intended to look at the effects of long pickups. The real purpose of this rig is to develop an advanced pump design I'm working on. That uses a standard front sump pickup for now. The testing of production pumps provides a baseline to measure my new pump against. Sharing these results is a bonus!
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This needs some cleanup but this is the gist of it.
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Sweet! How hard was it to bore into that rotor? Looking good :D
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Oddly enough that shaft is like butter... I was shocked at how soft it is....Doing it in that fashion isnt what you would do long term of course but for these purposes it should work just fine . I dont think it will explode on you. 8)
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Good to know :) It will be interesting to see how much you can reduce deflection with that setup. I wonder how easy it will be to get everything centered up before cinching the cover bolts down.
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I understand that this is what you are supposed to say , but , I dont think this thing can or will hit the cover any longer or deflect. This one will be dead centered as I will do these four cover bolt holes and then once they are installed use a drill guide I am making to go right down main street and drill the hole for the bushing using the upper bore to locate it.
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Well, late to this party, but thinking out loud, some questions that I have always wondered about:
1. Inlet shape of the pickup tube bell. A vortex forms at the entry which can entrain air into the oil.
There were some articles years ago about using a square shaped pickup as some aftermarket oil pan manufacturers use.
The Chevy LS (sorry about that) has an oval shaped inlet.
2. Does a gerotor oil pump create harmonics which backfeed to the distributor and cause spark scatter?
3. Wondering how closely the 429CJ dual entry oil pump cover fits the FE pump.
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You can also heat the object orange, rub it with Cow hooves and quench in water. Thats the old blacksmith way,and it does not smell like strawberries. The burning hooves carburize the surface. It is most practical to remove hooves from the cow first ;D
LOL, I knew this thread was going to get good. You can always count on Heo! ;D
When it comes to metals and heat treating, Japanese sword makers had incredible knowledge centuries ago that we still can't figure out today. Scientists have been researching that stuff for decades...to no avail. The closest anyone came to matching the hardness and pliability of certain 'established gold standards' in vintage Katana making was an American farmer who did the stuff as a hobby. After 20 something years, he came across a process that he thought was as close as anyone had gotten. After a very in-depth investigation, the scientists agreed. The process was very long and drawn out, using old methods of ceramic pottery in coal fired kilns, and requiring multiple heat treatments (with certain additives added at very specific times and temps) that nobody, short of a mental patient, could dream of. There was a very good 2 hour documentation made just on his processes, but I never saved the link.
Not that any of that has anything to add to this thread ::)
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OK so now you are going into either A" Using a good sharp Katana so take the life out of a cow or
B: Using a good sharp Katana to cleave the hooves from said cow...
Or both I guess.
Which begs the Question , Did it have to be a cow and not a bull ?
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1. Inlet shape of the pickup tube bell. A vortex forms at the entry which can entrain air into the oil.
There is probably something significant to that comment.
A lot of (most?) aftermarket oil pickups seem to use a square or rectangular inlet and sometimes use a piece of perforated sheet metal instead of a screen. Yet I cannot remember ever seeing an OEM pickup as being anything other than round with a fairly open mesh screen.
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Oh- my - gawd,
So just when I thought this epic post by an epic guy on this epic forum couldn’t get any better,
Ya had to go and throw in the cow hooves.
This is, without doubt, the best forum on the internet.
So, I haven’t had a chance to catch up on this thread, but I’m wondering if anyone has brought up the new Ford 7.3L oil pump? Looks like a small version on the oil pump used in the GM 700r4 trans.
But what’s cool about the Ford pump is that it’s a variable displacement pump. Seems like a really good idea. Would be super cool if someone could adapt that style pump to use in any old engine.
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But what’s cool about the Ford pump is that it’s a variable displacement pump. Seems like a really good idea. Would be super cool if someone could adapt that style pump to use in any old engine.
Joey - Stay tuned. That is a vane-type pump which is fairly expensive and not as tough as a geroter pump. You do hear Brian Wolfe touting the benefits of variable displacement oil pumps in the video though. They were able to hit their fuel economy targets without resorting to cylinder deactivation, simply by going to a variable displacement oil pump! Clearly it's worth something...
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Oh - Heo, Let's hope the cows aren't reading this Forum!
(http://www.koihosting.com/images/articles/img67-1.jpg)
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To be fair , thats a Bull , we arent clear on if they are safe or not.....
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OK so now you are going into either A" Using a good sharp Katana so take the life out of a cow or
B: Using a good sharp Katana to cleave the hooves from said cow...
Or both I guess.
Which begs the Question , Did it have to be a cow and not a bull ?
I guess its safe with a bull ;D....
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Oh - Heo, Let's hope the cows aren't reading this Forum!
(http://www.koihosting.com/images/articles/img67-1.jpg)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bill i almost got killed by a cow once. So maybe they know. It had escaped and me and dad catch ed it and wrestled it down
and while i held it by the horns my dad was to put on the "harness" on the head of it when i slipped in the mud
and it felt i let of the grip so it raised from the ground headbutted me to the ground, me holding the horns, and it put its weight on my chest i heard the ribs snap crackle and pop. Dad found a screwdriver in his pocket that he stabbed the cow behind the ear with to make it let go of me. there was tracks in the mud where the cow had dragged me around , several ribs broken and a dead cow
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I'm only familiar with the vane pump, because for 2 years (64-65), I was a automatic trans mechanic, before I got drafted.
They are a good simple pump and were used in the original Hydromatic and the horrible Jetway, dual coupling, piece of crap.
I have always like the Hydro and with small changes, they used it in the 2 1/2 ton Army truck, behind 302-6's. B&M also became famous with it.
I looked up the variable displacement oil pumps and it seems pretty simple, the pressure works against a spring, moving the vane housing and reducing the offset that causes the displacement differential.
I think they are a good style pump. Diffidently not a new design and very reliable.
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Safe to say that now the FE forum is squarely in the cross hairs of PETA , I sure hope Pamela Anderson isnt reading this thread.....
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To be fair , thats a Bull , we arent clear on if they are safe or not.....
Big udder and tits on that 'bull'
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1. Inlet shape of the pickup tube bell. A vortex forms at the entry which can entrain air into the oil.
There is probably something significant to that comment.
A lot of (most?) aftermarket oil pickups seem to use a square or rectangular inlet and sometimes use a piece of perforated sheet metal instead of a screen. Yet I cannot remember ever seeing an OEM pickup as being anything other than round with a fairly open mesh screen.
Do you think there is any difference in how the tube enters the pickup screen ie from the top like the earlier FE's including the 427 or from the side like most of the later FE's?Since most of the top entry entry tubes extend nearly to the screen I can't imagine there would be much effect like a funnel,the side entry tubes I've seen with both straight cut and slash cut ends,I would think the slash cut would be better but that's just speculation.
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Sounds to me like Mr. Bill needs to get his tuckus to work on an oil pump pickup test fixture
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Barry - Any other ideas on how to spend my money LOL??!! You don't want to compete with my wife...
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To be fair , thats a Bull , we arent clear on if they are safe or not.....
Big udder and tits on that 'bull'
Must be one of those modern, trans gender, bulls! Maybe it's why one horn drops down?
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I guess they have pills for that now.
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To be fair , thats a Bull , we arent clear on if they are safe or not.....
Big udder and tits on that 'bull'
Must be one of those modern, trans gender, bulls! Maybe it's why one horn drops down?
You liable to find "herm" in male, female or family toilet.
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To be fair , thats a Bull , we arent clear on if they are safe or not.....
If that is a bull it has some interesting “parts”.
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Getting to to oil pumps, when I was playing with 272-312 Ford Y Blocks 50 ish years ago, I seem to recall the earlier Y blocks used a oil pump with GM style straight spur gears, and the gear driven by the distributor, had a round stub on the bottom that fit into a hole in the thick cast iron lower cover. Around 1957, I believe, Ford switched to a gerotor style oil pump, with a thin, flat steel plate, like the FE, small block, and other Ford pushrod engines for decades afterwards, and no more lower support stub. I wonder if the engineers considered the gerotor pump more efficient, or if it was for reduced noise, since the Y Block oil pumps were mounted on the outside of the engine, at the rear, not far from the firewall.
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Here's a link from 2016 on the other forum, wherein I posted pics of my "oddball" straight gear FE pump. Eventually "Pumpbuilder" Doug weighed in to i.d. it as an early TRW hi-volume effort and it utilized the gears and cover from the Y-block. Unfortunately the pics are no longer viewable (damned Photobucket). Randy M
https://www.fordfe.com/viewtopic.php?f=74182&t=106861&p=985887&hilit=trw+oil+pump#p985887
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Getting to to oil pumps,.............. I wonder if the engineers considered the gerotor pump more efficient, .....................
In most of the considered important by the O.E.M. responsibilities of pumping, yes! :)
Scott.
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Safe to say that now the FE forum is squarely in the cross hairs of PETA , I sure hope Pamela Anderson isnt reading this thread.....
Hmmmm....... Funny you mention Pamela when talking about making things harder :D
she is known to have that effect. Not necessarily by rubbing her hoofs against it, but i guess
that worked to, for someone
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https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/02/04/video-ford-7-3l-godzilla-engine-overview-part-2-camshaft-valve-train-oil-pump/
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You guys are just cracking me up!! This is the first I've heard of transgender cows. LMAO!! This sounds a lot like the color casehardening that gunsmiths do. They put the metal parts into a container with bone and charcoal, heat it, hold it at a particular temperature, then quench the parts. As I understand it, it forces carbon into the surface of the metal, hardening it for a depth of several thousandths of an inch. I grew up in a farming area, cows are nothing to mess with. They're not nearly as laid back and mellow as a lot of people think.
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Safe to say that now the FE forum is squarely in the cross hairs of PETA , I sure hope Pamela Anderson isnt reading this thread.....
Hmmmm....... Funny you mention Pamela when talking about making things harder :D
she is known to have that effect. Not necessarily by rubbing her hoofs against it, but i guess
that worked to, for someone
Back in the day, Pamela's udders were almost as big as that "bull"'s. She and Tommy Lee lived in the next town over from me. Sightings were pretty common. She had substantial lower back muscles.
Anyway, back to oil pumps! I'll post up some new data later today.
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Not a problem if you happen to have a good sharp Katana......
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https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/02/04/video-ford-7-3l-godzilla-engine-overview-part-2-camshaft-valve-train-oil-pump/
They have to be shitting us! A complicated oil pump, designed primarily to help fuel mileage?
Geez, as noted early on with the dyno test, it takes less than 3 hp (!) to drive a FE pump at high rpms. Yikes, how much more hp could a variable vane pump save in this new design? 1 hp maybe? Have the engineers totally used up all other possibilities to increase mpg where now they have to design a pump that looks like it won't go 100k miles, if that? Would not say taking the barn-door frontal area of most F-series trucks a making them a lot more aerodynamic offer much greater gains? Foolish I say.
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Yep , if you have spent enough time working on these newer Fords you can take one look at that thing and see a PITA failure written all over it.....Its like they take the things they know will fail just above 100K miles and use them over and over again without update....
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https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/02/04/video-ford-7-3l-godzilla-engine-overview-part-2-camshaft-valve-train-oil-pump/
They have to be shitting us! A complicated oil pump, designed primarily to help fuel mileage?
You guys would be amazed how much fuel economy benefit there is from reducing parasitic horsepower. I'm pretty sure the 7.3L pump is bigger, and running harder to handle the variable valve timing actuators. It would be using more than a few HP if running at full pressure all of the time. At steady-state cruise with the valve timing set, they can dial down the pressure to less than half. That would save at least a couple HP, which would help the EPA number substantially. Wolfe said the economy gain was enough that they didn't have to use a cylinder deactivation system. Now THOSE are complicated systems so I'd call this a win.
Oh - That variable pump is not just adjusted by the spring. The chamber above the arm is fed with oil controlled by a solenoid valve. (See the little wiper seal on the end of the arm?) The oil pressure pushes the arm down, and when the solenoid valve reduces the oil, the spring returns the arm back up. This is a fail-safe too, in case the electronics or solenoid fail. The spring will just push the arm all the way up and it becomes a full-flow pump.
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Yes , and if you have worked on these things since they came out you already know the rock solid performance Ford has had out of all of these oil pressure controlled systems...
Combine these systems with mas produced components designed more with the bottom line in mind and ladies and gentlemen . I give you the Ford 3 valve phaser tick....Or the chain slap , or the burned up followers or locked up cam on passengers side.....
The systems are great when you throw good parts at them . But out of the box.......... Its a mess.....
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Do you guys realize that some of the new F-150 Ford pickup trucks have louvers in the front grill area that is variable at different speeds to control engine temperature, and aerodynamics of the frontal area? The added weight of the controller, louvers, electronics, and space required makes it seem to be a detriment to fuel mileage, but it is there. Does it help mileage? At highway speeds, the Roush 650 hp engine gets 25 mpg here in TX, NM, CO with two people, complete engine as removed from dyno in truck bed, with luggage, etc. The front of that truck is very aerodynamic with the louvers closed at 75 MPH. Joe-JDC
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Oil pressure management has been around for years. Cummins, and I'm sure the others, Detroit and Cat used similar oil volume and pressure limitations. On Cummins [the only diesel I had 1st hand experience with] they went to a smaller gear pump that reduced the volume as well as a lighter relief spring that limited oil pressure to about 40 lbs. cold and hot. It was a tough transition for me to make as I was accustom to the typical 60-65 lbs o/p hot, running. Cummins put a lot of research into how little the typical 855 cu/in 'N'series engines required for adequate oiling. IIRC they claimed a 2-3% mpg fuel savings over the old design. This was back in the 70s-early 80s where they were just starting to scratch for each and every mpg they could find. In the beginning it was hard for me to watch the oil pressure gauge as it would drop to 32-33 lbs at 18-1900 rpm on a hard pull, loaded up a long grade on a hot day.
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Oil pressure management has been around for years. Cummins, and I'm sure the others, Detroit and Cat used similar oil volume and pressure limitations. On Cummins [the only diesel I had 1st hand experience with] they went to a smaller gear pump that reduced the volume as well as a lighter relief spring that limited oil pressure to about 40 lbs. cold and hot. It was a tough transition for me to make as I was accustom to the typical 60-65 lbs o/p hot, running. Cummins put a lot of research into how little the typical 855 cu/in 'N'series engines required for adequate oiling. IIRC they claimed a 2-3% mpg fuel savings over the old design. This was back in the 70s-early 80s where they were just starting to scratch for each and every mpg they could find. In the beginning it was hard for me to watch the oil pressure gauge as it would drop to 32-33 lbs at 18-1900 rpm on a hard pull, loaded up a long grade on a hot day.
The biggest reason Cummins switched to the lower oil pressure on the 855's was as part of a switch to the low flow cooling engines. They had the right idea, but the concept was poorly executed and had reliability issues which led the reputation all the 88NT version of the engines had. This culminated in the now infamous 444 engine which was aimed at taking market share away from Cat's 3406 425HP truck engines. The idea was to control oil and coolant flow to maintain max operating temps, but due to the complicated way Cummins achieved it, there were always problems. Especially as the engines aged, a common failure was the internal lower rad baffle failing which would lead to low oil pressure and then overheating, among other issues.
Interestly tho, Cummins work with the low flow engines led later on to most truck engines going to a simplified version of that concept but done more reliably in the thermostat housings. Cat truck engines and Series 60's had the best version of that in my opinion.
Cummins did try some additional engine oil flow control only measures on the M11 and ISM's that did work, but people screwed with that stuff without understanding how it work and wiped out a lot of crankshafts. The viscosity valve in the block is NOT a relief valve!
I think from the research I've seen lately, that the variable oil pump/flow is less about pump drive HP loss, than the loss created by excess oil throughout the engine. If you don't need all that oil on parts at cruise then leave it in the pan. On fuel flow tests I've seen (SwRI) it is an measurable and repeatable gain. I'm just not sure I'm excited about the potential problems when the system fails for a few tenths of a mpg.
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Here's some new data to stir things up! I got a new M-57 B standard volume high pressure pump from Doug Garifo. I also got a new M-57 HV pump that is pure stock - not blueprinted. (As you guys know, the original blueprinted HV pump got toasted. I'm pretty sure it ingested something while I was shaking down the test rig...)
Here's what the pressure and flow look like for the two pumps. What??? That's bass-ackwards! The M-57 B actually makes more flow and pressure than the M-57 HV, except at very low rpm. The M-57 B is also more efficient, using about 0.5 less HP at 7,500 rpm.
Here are the charts:
(https://i.ibb.co/Fxzd6s2/Melling-M-57-HV-and-M-57-B-Flow.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/x7jpfcp/Melling-M-57-HV-and-M-57-B-Pressure.png)
I am confident that this data is correct, because I ran the tests back-to-back on the same fresh oil with the instruments on and at the same calibration. I even re-ran to make sure!
Why is this so? I have a few ideas:
- The M-57 B is blueprinted by Doug and the M-57 HV is not. Note that this M-57 HV is down on flow quite a bit from the previous HV pump that was blueprinted by Doug.
- The HV pump may be suffering from bad port timing. In other words, the inlet and outlet ports may not be in the exact correct positions for optimal flow. Mike Brunson turned me on to this from an old-time speed shop that "times" pumps in his hometown.
- You guys may be right about the pump pickup. It's a stock 1/2" front sump pickup. Maybe the HV pump is drawing on it too hard and flow is stalling.
I inspected the bottom covers on both pumps and they are fine. Here's the M-57 B. It just has polishing and a few very light scratches. There is no real material loss and the oil stayed clean:
(https://i.ibb.co/GQGQ6rh/IMG-6036.jpg)
Here's the stock M-57 HV cover plate. I noticed that it has a blue color! I was hoping that it got the cow-hoof heat treat, but alas it nicks with a file just as easily as the other covers. Must just be a thin surface treatment. This one is also in really good shape with just a bit of polish:
(https://i.ibb.co/vYTbjy5/IMG-6037.jpg)
Yes the HV pump did show cavitation when it was bypassing. This one has a tighter spring - bypassing at about 92 psi. There are bubbles in the oil after it ran, but not as severe as before. The flow and pressure loss on the curves is not as severe either. This may have a lot to do with this HV pump being a lot healthier than the old one:
(https://i.ibb.co/hHjY9NC/IMG-6035.jpg)
So flame away! I'm wondering about the pickup tube, but it may take some effort to source a better one...
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Looks like Doug's pumps are worth the extra money to me.
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Do you guys realize that some of the new F-150 Ford pickup trucks have louvers in the front grill area that is variable at different speeds to control engine temperature, and aerodynamics of the frontal area? The added weight of the controller, louvers, electronics, and space required makes it seem to be a detriment to fuel mileage, but it is there. Does it help mileage? At highway speeds, the Roush 650 hp engine gets 25 mpg here in TX, NM, CO with two people, complete engine as removed from dyno in truck bed, with luggage, etc. The front of that truck is very aerodynamic with the louvers closed at 75 MPH. Joe-JDC
Did not know that joe and that is very interesting. Still, if as noted below even a 1 hp is worth the effort, how about a full underbody tray for the F-series truck ala' cars like my Audi S5 turbo coupe? That tray is there solely to smooth airflow at highway speeds per Audi.
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delete
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Would like to see what a larger tube pickup would do
Ricky.
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All of the contact is still to that one side of the pump (Understandably) . If the rotor cocks as it gets loaded then obviously its no longer square to the outer ring.If the two are not square to one another or they chatter then what happens ? By design it will just keep doing this. Thicker oil higher load more deflection....
That bottom one absolutely looks better tho... The hooves take care of business ...
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Yes , and if you have worked on these things since they came out you already know the rock solid performance Ford has had out of all of these oil pressure controlled systems...
Combine these systems with mas produced components designed more with the bottom line in mind and ladies and gentlemen . I give you the Ford 3 valve phaser tick....Or the chain slap , or the burned up followers or locked up cam on passengers side.....
The systems are great when you throw good parts at them . But out of the box.......... Its a mess.....
Oh, and don't forget another infamous Ford engineering failure, spark plug threads pulling out of a V-8's head, maybe not all eight but often 2-3. Good times!
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Here's some new data to stir things up! I got a new M-57 B standard volume high pressure pump from Doug Garifo. I also got a new M-57 HV pump that is pure stock - not blueprinted. (As you guys know, the original blueprinted HV pump got toasted. I'm pretty sure it ingested something while I was shaking down the test rig...)
Here's what the pressure and flow look like for the two pumps. What??? That's bass-ackwards! The M-57 B actually makes more flow and pressure than the M-57 HV, except at very low rpm. The M-57 B is also more efficient, using about 0.5 less HP at 7,500 rpm.
Here are the charts:
(https://i.ibb.co/Fxzd6s2/Melling-M-57-HV-and-M-57-B-Flow.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/x7jpfcp/Melling-M-57-HV-and-M-57-B-Pressure.png)
I am confident that this data is correct, because I ran the tests back-to-back on the same fresh oil with the instruments on and at the same calibration. I even re-ran to make sure!
Why is this so? I have a few ideas:
- The M-57 B is blueprinted by Doug and the M-57 HV is not. Note that this M-57 HV is down on flow quite a bit from the previous HV pump that was blueprinted by Doug.
- The HV pump may be suffering from bad port timing. In other words, the inlet and outlet ports may not be in the exact correct positions for optimal flow. Mike Brunson turned me on to this from an old-time speed shop that "times" pumps in his hometown.
- You guys may be right about the pump pickup. It's a stock 1/2" front sump pickup. Maybe the HV pump is drawing on it too hard and flow is stalling.
I inspected the bottom covers on both pumps and they are fine. Here's the M-57 B. It just has polishing and a few very light scratches. There is no real material loss and the oil stayed clean:
(https://i.ibb.co/GQGQ6rh/IMG-6036.jpg)
Here's the stock M-57 HV cover plate. I noticed that it has a blue color! I was hoping that it got the cow-hoof heat treat, but alas it nicks with a file just as easily as the other covers. Must just be a thin surface treatment. This one is also in really good shape with just a bit of polish:
(https://i.ibb.co/vYTbjy5/IMG-6037.jpg)
Yes the HV pump did show cavitation when it was bypassing. This one has a tighter spring - bypassing at about 92 psi. There are bubbles in the oil after it ran, but not as severe as before. The flow and pressure loss on the curves is not as severe either. This may have a lot to do with this HV pump being a lot healthier than the old one:
(https://i.ibb.co/hHjY9NC/IMG-6035.jpg)
So flame away! I'm wondering about the pickup tube, but it may take some effort to source a better one...
Excellent data! I use a lot of the B pumps, love them.
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Could you put a pressure/vacuum sensor in the pump inlet tube to measure inlet side effects?
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Could you put a pressure/vacuum sensor in the pump inlet tube to measure inlet side effects?
Hi Barry - That just might be worthwhile. I see there are some reasonably priced solutions out there. There are a couple of things in the queue first, but the pickup question has my interest.
- Bill
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I remember back in the late 70's and 80's when you had to put a HV in everything B pumps were actually hard to find,you had to special order it,if you were lucky they could find one at another store that someone ordered thinking it was a HV.
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Here are the charts:
(https://i.ibb.co/Fxzd6s2/Melling-M-57-HV-and-M-57-B-Flow.png)
Yes the HV pump did show cavitation when it was bypassing.
Sorry if I wasn't paying attention but by what observation did you utilize to determine the point at which the pump was bypassing? ???
Scott.
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Sorry if I wasn't paying attention but by what observation did you utilize to determine the point at which the pump was bypassing? ???
Scott.
The pressure peaks and the needle starts a small rapid fluctuation. Flow starts rolling over as well.
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Conley , Sorry if I missed this before but did you try upping the by pass pressure to see if everything moved up with it ??
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Conley , Sorry if I missed this before but did you try upping the by pass pressure to see if everything moved up with it ??
I haven't taken any of the pumps apart to shim the bypass springs, but it's clear that this would move the bypass pressure up. The M-57 B has a stiffer spring. It went up to 100 psi at 7,500 rpm and never hit bypass pressure. The second HV pump happened to have a bit stiffer spring from the factory. That one bypassed at 92 psi where the first one bypassed at 86 psi. Shimming the spring in the HV pump would certainly improve things.
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I guess my point is , is bypass the only point where you see air introduced into the system ? And verifying it by then altering the characteristics of the one pump to then alter the time that cavitation begins ?
Yes we can say that another pump performs differently but havnt completely isolated the air to a certain event if that indeed can be done.
Part of the reason I ask this is the 427 system which has always been odd to me . Was Ford on to something by putting that bypass back there in the block ? Am I late for the party in that ? It was brought up but I cannot remember if that bypass opens before the pump by pass or after. If before was that to prevent in part whats happening on your test fixture ?
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In theory, it doesn't matter where the bypass is. Whenever another discharge is opened, the vacuum on the suction side of the pump drops. If it drops too far, cavitation ensues.
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Comments on last two post before mine....
So unloading the pump,opening the bypass, creates a point that FLOW demand rises as it is trying to restore pressure . If the inlet is restrictive or cannot feed that demand then cavitation follows until the system (inlet flow?) is restored?
Early in the post it was by pass back into the inlet causing bubbles in the outlet side. That would make the side oiler relief logical (and a BOSS 302 racer I know system make sense) but any bypass opening can cause the same problem?
Back in 03 the thing to do was replace the dummy gauge in the 03 Marauder with a real one, then marvel, (or be terrified) by how much the pressure moved with 5w20 oil. I know the low viscosity oil was driven by mileage but still I don’t recall any pressure higher than what I remember to be a 20f start after a 12hour cold soak,it pegged the 100psi gauge at 2000 rpm but was well off 100psi in minutes.
I know,or think,the pump needs to supply all the leaks in the system with some left over. Isn’t high pressure a measure of excess oil flow? The relief should only open in the extreme,such as cold start ,high rpm,but not warm operation/ high rpm? Or do we want a number,say at 7000rpm,that does not exceed X?
It seems if pump cavitation happens anytime the relief opens our goal should be to operate well out of that limit,only using the relief to prevent blowing the filter off or breaking the pump drive.
A year or so back I tried to ask a question that got no reply about oil viscosity and oil temp. Early in my cars restored life I cleaned it a lot,kept it car show ready because that what I was doing. As the season changed I noticed the ol 20w50 was showing 80-100 psi for most of my 6 mile drive home in the evening. The oil pan was uncomfortably warm as I did my pre show clean up (Friday about 11pm) I switched to 10w30 and even with warm evening temps,70f ish, the pan was very cool (?) oil pressure still peaked around 100 on start but settled to about 70psi at 2200 ,just normal driving nothing extreme. By pass heating the oil,or the oil getting forced past tight clearances?
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Back in 03 the thing to do was replace the dummy gauge in the 03 Marauder with a real one, then marvel, (or be terrified) by how much the pressure moved with 5w20 oil. I know the low viscosity oil was driven by mileage but still I don’t recall any pressure higher than what I remember to be a 20f start after a 12hour cold soak,it pegged the 100psi gauge at 2000 rpm but was well off 100psi in minutes.
The 5W20 oil is dictated by bearing clearances. All-aluminum engines need tighter main bearing clearances so that when the engine gets hot, it doesn't lose significant oil pressure.
Your all-aluminum 4.6L DOHC in that 2003 Marauder probably had main bearing clearances at around .001-.0015". If an oil with higher viscosity was used in colder climates, the bearings could be starved.
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Thats kind of the second thing I was getting at . If the relief wasnt opening or was pushed higher , would the cavitation then be stopped all together ? I dont think it would but who knows. If it indeed did stop then we know that the relief dumping back into the inlet needs to go... We may know that already honestly.
In either case it seems that killing the pump relief all together and creating another fuse in the system that dumps back in another location is a better idea...I am putting together a step child 427 right now that doesnt have the side oiler valve in it but however has been made into a side oiler and will spend some time on a dyno so I want to play with this a bit.
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Back in 03 the thing to do was replace the dummy gauge in the 03 Marauder with a real one, then marvel, (or be terrified) by how much the pressure moved with 5w20 oil. I know the low viscosity oil was driven by mileage but still I don’t recall any pressure higher than what I remember to be a 20f start after a 12hour cold soak,it pegged the 100psi gauge at 2000 rpm but was well off 100psi in minutes.
The 5W20 oil is dictated by bearing clearances. All-aluminum engines need tighter main bearing clearances so that when the engine gets hot, it doesn't lose significant oil pressure.
Your all-aluminum 4.6L DOHC in that 2003 Marauder probably had main bearing clearances at around .001-.0015". If an oil with higher viscosity was used in colder climates, the bearings could be starved.
Brent I understand the logic behind this and believe me ive been told by engine builders time and time again this is the case . But im here to tell you that ive run a teksid based 4 valves with stock clearances with Royal Purple 20/50 for thousand upon thousands of laps without a single failure . Im talking hours on end at 4000 to 7500....
Of course I never had to start it in February in canada either.... 8)
I only say this because there is no blanket rule for those....
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Back in 03 the thing to do was replace the dummy gauge in the 03 Marauder with a real one, then marvel, (or be terrified) by how much the pressure moved with 5w20 oil. I know the low viscosity oil was driven by mileage but still I don’t recall any pressure higher than what I remember to be a 20f start after a 12hour cold soak,it pegged the 100psi gauge at 2000 rpm but was well off 100psi in minutes.
The 5W20 oil is dictated by bearing clearances. All-aluminum engines need tighter main bearing clearances so that when the engine gets hot, it doesn't lose significant oil pressure.
Your all-aluminum 4.6L DOHC in that 2003 Marauder probably had main bearing clearances at around .001-.0015". If an oil with higher viscosity was used in colder climates, the bearings could be starved.
Brent I understand the logic behind this and believe me ive been told by engine builders time and time again this is the case . But im here to tell you that ive run a teksid based 4 valves with stock clearances with Royal Purple 20/50 for thousand upon thousands of laps without a single failure . Im talking hours on end at 4000 to 7500....
Of course I never had to start it in February in canada either.... 8)
I only say this because there is no blanket rule for those....
Sure, but there’s a big difference between a factory stock engine in a Mercury that has to be all-climate, and a race engine.
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Race engine , man I was in a class where its gotta be "Stock"..... No race engines here man..... ::)
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Race engine , man I was in a class where its gotta be "Stock"..... No race engines here man..... ::)
Yeah I’ve seen classes like that. An eye roll emoji is appropriate.
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Looking at my gauges during a test run, I see a HUGE difference in oil flow vs temperature. On first startup, at 60 degrees or so, the flow is less than half that at 200 degrees and cold pressure is way higher at a given rpm. We all know the pressure thing, but flow was an eye-opener for me.
That reminds me of an old guy I once met who flew a restored P-51. His big thing was to wait until the engine came up to full temperature before applying takeoff power. His patience was rewarded over the years by much longer intervals between $$$ engine rebuilds.
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My DOHC 5.7 V-8 requires 0-20W synthetic oil. I would never consider running 10W-40, or 10W-50 in it. My son put Royal Purple in my '86GT after I changed it to a 383W, and it used oil from that time until we changed back to 10w-30. I will never use RP oil again. Your experience is totally different from mine. Joe-JDC
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Well , look at it this way , in reverse . Its August and its 102 outside . You are about to run 100 laps just as hard as that engine will run. I know I am about to open the "Lubricity" door and all that but do you really think running water in the crank case is a good idea ? Thats what your going to end up with after 100 laps at those RPMs in the heat of summer. Engines getting a bit warm ? Well its gonna have to get over that....
I Do run the lighter oils in the street modulars I have around but if its going to the show its getting changed every week with new 20/50 royal purple.At one point I had 5 cars in the class all with similar setups and all with the same maintenance and if the planets were aligned we usually held the top 5 .
Im talking about the worst punishment in the worst environment you can think of .
I cut a hose once and lost all the water with I think it was 8 laps to go or so and I had no choice but to go .When I lifted after the checker the car just shut off. The heads didnt care for it but I used that complete bottom end in another car later on and it was nearly perfect when I tore it down....
The question here is whats the thing used for ? What I was saying is that the oil choice and not using the heavy oils is not a blanket statement.
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Absolutely Conley , getting them up to temp is of utmost importance...
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The question here is whats the thing used for ? What I was saying is that the oil choice and not using the heavy oils is not a blanket statement.
For a modern passenger car that can see anything from Minnesota to Texas, I think it is a blanket statement. Otherwise, the OEM manufacturer wouldn't have spent millions of dollars on bearing clearance and oil viscosity R&D. Remember, the OEM urges the general population to start their car, give it a few seconds for oil to get to the top end, then drive off. Long gone are the days of carefully letting a car warm-up, because now everyone is scared of emissions.
What you have described in your scenario is such an extremely narrow slice of the pie. What Lance described is certainly because of the block material, bearing clearances, and what the manufacturers have deemed a general oil viscosity for a modern passenger car.
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Now that the subject of oil pump function in newer design engines has come up I'd like to bring up the cover deflection issue experienced by the crank-driven design common today in many brands. I am amazed that the covers commonly deflect enough during high rpm/demand to allow copious quantities of oil to escape the pressurized system - a Fred Flintstone relief valve? How could this not have been considered a defect during the design process? It shakes my confidence in modern design logic.
Randy M
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Well Brent you would be shocked at the amount of "Engine builders" that blanket the entire platform with that oil for all of those Manufacturers reasons. Fire and Brimstone will rain down on you from above if you put that 20-50 in there !!
I figure most of what we are talking about here isnt riding down to the corner to get groceries . If so Conley wouldnt have started this mess......
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At an EMC event I was making repeated pull after pull just playing around with stuff after locking down three decent ones. As we reached the end of the session the oil temperature was getting over 200 F. The guy from Amsoil was looking on and commented that this was the first engine he had seem where temperature was getting into a good operating range...
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At an EMC event I was making repeated pull after pull just playing around with stuff after locking down three decent ones. As we reached the end of the session the oil temperature was getting over 200 F. The guy from Amsoil was looking on and commented that this was the first engine he had seem where temperature was getting into a good operating range...
Hard to get oil hot on the dyno unless you purposely try to do it. I know most of my dyno sessions get the oil up only to the 170-180° range. I have gotten to 200-210°, but it has been on cam breakins during the warmer months.
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What surprises me is that with your testing, that the oil pump only requires 2.9hp to operate at 7500 rpm, but in dozens if not hundreds of dyno sessions, I have seen the horsepower change as much as 18-20 hp with temperature and viscosity and fresh oil changes. Granted some of that was taking out a half quart from the pan, but even with the required 5 quarts minimum, we were seeing 8-10 hp difference between 10W-30 and 5W-20 weights. What was ideal was low water temperature, and high oil temperature for best hp numbers. Joe-JDC
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What surprises me is that with your testing, that the oil pump only requires 2.9hp to operate at 7500 rpm ...
Joe - I'm confident that this number is at least in the ballpark. The drive motor for the test rig is only 5 HP, and it starts/runs easily so far for all of the pumps I've tested.
Now if I was to roll the test rig outside Jay's shop in Minnesota right now and attempt a cold start, the drive motor would throw up a white flag ;D
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Comments on last two post before mine....
So unloading the pump,opening the bypass, creates a point that FLOW demand rises as it is trying to restore pressure . If the inlet is restrictive or cannot feed that demand then cavitation follows until the system (inlet flow?) is restored?
Early in the post it was by pass back into the inlet causing bubbles in the outlet side. That would make the side oiler relief logical (and a BOSS 302 racer I know system make sense) but any bypass opening can cause the same problem?
The flow rising to restore pressure and causing cavitation scenario you describe is accurate for non positive displacement pumps,but for positive displacement pumps the flow is going to remain at a fixed flow rate regardless of flow demand for a given pump speed, any flow fluctuations at a constant speed will be due to compressibility of the medium ie as flow demand increases and pressure drops the compressed medium will re expand causing a temporary increase in indicated flow.If the inlet is sized to provide sufficient flow for the pumps rated capacity at maximum speed then there will be no cavitation however if the inlet is sized to provide sufficient flow at a speed less than the pump is capable of being turned at some point above that rated speed cavitation will begin.If flow demand never exceeds a pumps capacity at any given speed pressure will remain at or near the bypass pressure with minimal bypass flow,however if flow demand exceeds pump output at a given speed pressure will begin to drop and if flow demand never comes close to pump output at any speed bypass flow continues to increase until it either matches the excess flow of the pump output or exceeds the flow capacity of the bypass circuit in which case discharge pressure continues to increase.Provided nothing breaks as pressure increases flow will be forced to increase thru those bearing clearances until equilibrium is reached.
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Yeah I read that about 14 times and it makes plenty of sense . So in theory . Much like a return Fuel system if a regulator of sorts (Like the 427 valve) was in place and for lack of a better word "Tuned" to the the specific flow demands of an engine along with the pumps capability then you could achieve that equilibrium ?
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Yeah I read that about 14 times and it makes plenty of sense . So in theory . Much like a return Fuel system if a regulator of sorts (Like the 427 valve) was in place and for lack of a better word "Tuned" to the the specific flow demands of an engine along with the pumps capability then you could achieve that equilibrium ?
Something like that,I'm not up on how that variable volume oil pump on the new 7.3 works,but that would be the best answer to how to supply the needed oil while minimizing pumping losses,Fords on the right track there it just remains to be seen if they can make it reliable,then it would be more like a returnless fuel system.Sounds kind of scary when put in those terms huh?
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Light bulb on!
So 351c/460 have the oil pressure sensor at the rear or lowest pressure point of the engine it we put the oil pressure regulator at that point and returned that oil to the pan would we then have more consistent pressure at all point? Maybe a supper high relief at the pump as a fail safe,or not.
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I believe thats what they were thinking with the in block relief valve with the HP blocks,it being at the end of the oil circuit,if I remember correctly the relief in the back of the block was set at around 80-85 psi and the in pump bypass was set at around 100-105 psi.I'm thinking they wanted to make sure they didn't have issues like this in the middle of a 500 mile race,this strategy may have driven the development of the thick shell hi pressure oil filters too,I know purolator,fram and baldwin all had versions,Holman Moody's thick shell filters were just relabeled Purolators.
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I believe thats what they were thinking with the in block relief valve with the HP blocks,it being at the end of the oil circuit,if I remember correctly the relief in the back of the block was set at around 80-85 psi and the in pump bypass was set at around 100-105 psi.I'm thinking they wanted to make sure they didn't have issues like this in the middle of a 500 mile race,this strategy may have driven the development of the thick shell hi pressure oil filters too,I know purolator,fram and baldwin all had versions,Holman Moody's thick shell filters were just relabeled Purolators.
Yes, that is how Ford advertised the advantage of that feature. With that valve in the block , it assured that there would be at least 85 lb at the end of the main gallery, to feed everything.
My '63 LR would peg the 120 lb gauge, when cold, with Valvoline 20/50
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Sorry if I wasn't paying attention but by what observation did you utilize to determine the point at which the pump was bypassing? ???
Scott.
The pressure peaks and the needle starts a small rapid fluctuation. Flow starts rolling over as well.
Not to beg the question, but although your description would be consistent for a cavitation event, and we have implied that this bypassing process may prove to be a contributing factor to such, clinically we haven't established such, really; even though you are likely correct? ???
Scott.
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Not to beg the question, but although your description would be consistent for a cavitation event, and we have implied that this bypassing process may prove to be a contributing factor to such, clinically we haven't established such, really; even though you are likely correct? ???
Scott.
Scott - I don't have any other explanation. The air bubbles appear in the oil only when the pressure hits the bypass region of the "85 psi" standard pressure spring on the HV pump. (On the two pumps I tested, that was 86 and 92 psi.) With the M-57 B pump and its higher pressure spring, there were no bubbles in the oil as the pressure passes through and above this range.
It would be quite a coincidence if the bypass and cavitation bubbles, appearing at the same time in the test, were unrelated.
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Here are the charts:
(https://i.ibb.co/Fxzd6s2/Melling-M-57-HV-and-M-57-B-Flow.png)
For clarification, do you have any conclusions concerning the delivery loss which appears on both pumps at say something over 5000 R.P.M.s and at 5 to 5.5 flow rate? Perhaps this is the bypass event starting but before the greater cavitation scenario as you have indicated? ???
Again, sorry if I missed this being covered previously. :)
Scott.
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I was waiting for somebody to pick up on that. I was a bit puzzled by the dip in that rpm range on both tests, so I re-ran a couple of times to verify.
This could be an effect from the "small" 1/2 inch pickup tube - maybe a vortex, resonance, or ?? I honestly don't know. There was no bubbling of the oil to indicate cavitation in either pump during these dips. Note that the pressures in that rpm range on both pumps are below the advertised bypass spring ratings.
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Not to beg the question, but although your description would be consistent for a cavitation event, and we have implied that this bypassing process may prove to be a contributing factor to such, clinically we haven't established such, really; even though you are likely correct? ???
Scott.
Scott - I don't have any other explanation. The air bubbles appear in the oil only when the pressure hits the bypass region of the "85 psi" standard pressure spring on the HV pump. (On the two pumps I tested, that was 86 and 92 psi.) With the M-57 B pump and its higher pressure spring, there were no bubbles in the oil as the pressure passes through and above this range.
It would be quite a coincidence if the bypass and cavitation bubbles, appearing at the same time in the test, were unrelated.
This is what I was saying before . If you shim that HV spring and you drive the number up then you know 100%.... We also know without a shadow of a doubt that the bypass has to be moved from where it is...
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I was waiting for somebody to pick up on that. I was a bit puzzled by the dip in that rpm range on both tests, so I re-ran a couple of times to verify.
This could be an effect from the "small" 1/2 inch pickup tube - maybe a vortex, resonance, or ?? I honestly don't know. There was no bubbling of the oil to indicate cavitation in either pump during these dips. Note that the pressures in that rpm range on both pumps are below the advertised bypass spring ratings.
Bill if your concerned the 1/2 " pickup is too small,while I know FE 5/8" pickups are hard to find,302 5/8"pickups are more available and will bolt up,I think the Boss 302 pickup is currently out of stock but the mustang II 302 pickup and 351W pickups are also the larger tubing.
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Thanks John! I'll look into one of the small-block pickups :)
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Solely for testing, one could fabricate a stop for the bypass spool-valve in order to limit the variable of its' operation to aid in conclusions as to the point of function.
One example of how a test instrument can be made if the P.U. tube flange provision is insufficient for such, is with a piece of steel flat-stock (maybe 3/8" in thickness) sandwiched between the P.U. tube flange and the pump bolt flange face, this mirroring the pump flange face with the matching two retention bolt holes and oil pathway orifice, but also incorporating a threaded hole (say 5/16" x 24T.) centered over the bypass plug & boring, in order to receive a threaded bolt or rod of a length permitting it to contact the hollow bodied spool-valve thereby not permitting it's movement. This threaded fixture would pass thru a hole punched in the plug of reasonably close fitment, though not critical as any sealing requirement will be accomplished by the relationship of the gasketed surfaces of the flange, and the retention of the plug is only to retain the spring & valve for convenience and to provide for the installed height of the spring if other testing requiring (such as perhaps providing for a travel limit value to the valve to reduce a rebound inertia travel value in it's operation? provide a metering effect of the bypass orifice by reducing the maximum exposure, or other valve movement observation opportunities?) or the plug & spring could just be deleted for this test. Some trimming of the P.U. tube flange, again if its' not suitable for this use it's self this eliminating the need of the separate plate, may be required for clearance of this threaded bolt/rod and preferably with a locking nut feature.
A variable is introduced with the additional transitions created by the stacking in the oil feed pathway so one would want to limit the dimensional changes of these as much as possible. :)
And this is intended as a tool with perhaps further or other pump testing possibilities, otherwise maybe more work than it's worth? :-\ Or you could just whittle out a wooden plug and pound it in! ::)
Scott.
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I would think that along those same lines the piece that is being made to go between the pickup flange and the pump could have a sleeve that extended into the bore and blocked the original opening . At taht point you could move the bypass out of there all together and make the adjustable one external to the pump.
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This is one method that I have been experimenting with for dyno testing different pressures vs horsepower loss or gain. I also open up the oil passages, blend them with as smooth a radius as possible without weakening the pump housing, polish the gears, remove any excess housing clearances, and loc-tite the bolts. With this modification, I can move the by-pass plunger spring up to ~.400" travel. Joe-JDC
(https://i.ibb.co/ZHZBzHC/IMG-6639.jpg)
Joe's post shows an interesting modification for manipulating the bypass plunger. Right now I'm fully busy with the test rig developing some new stuff. I'll be showing that over the next few weeks!
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If you do the variable spring tension modification like I pictured, you will need a grade 8 or better washer to fit at the end of the spring so the bolt threads will not slip into the inside of the spring. I used two so they would have less friction, and not cup. My washers are ~.015" thick. I also milled the inside of the plug for the additional washer thickness and for the spring to relax even more to lower the final bypass pressure. I was attempting to find what lowering the operating pressure at WOT would do, and if there would be a horespower difference that was measurable. I also was trying to see just how much oil would be used out of the pan with different pressures. Once you get started with these mind games, you can lose yourself in testing to infinite variables. LOL Joe-JDC
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So what have we learned so far???
- It’s a probably a good idea to case harden the oil pump end plate and using a thicker plate or doubling up the end plate with longer bolts might be a good idea as well?
- Purchasing a “blueprinted” oil pump (ie. Precision Oil Pumps) actually helps increase flow and is probably worth doing?
- Running a slightly higher than standard relief setting is a good way to move the cavitation problem up the RPM range thus minimizing chance of it happening?
- HV pumps are not required in the vast majority of engine builds.
- Using the relief at the back of a SideOiler block as your primary relief and setting the relief inside the oil pump 10 psi higher may be a good idea?
Agree? Disagree?
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I would agree with most of that . Also I am throwing a question out there to you guys that have been in this for a very long time and seen it I think its relative .
The oil filter issue Who has had these things split on them ? At what kind of pressures did they do this and where exactly in the filter did it split ? Aside from the H&M filter what was the work around for these issues ?
My 66 fast back had a high revving small block in it and the original owner had transformed it into a mini gasser way back when . His family members reference it "Exploding" oil filters among other 4 speed related items but no one has any detailed info on that.
Ive never had one cone apart and I have always run the fram of the FL-1A with never any more than about 80 PSI.
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I would agree with most of that . Also I am throwing a question out there to you guys that have been in this for a very long time and seen it I think its relative .
The oil filter issue Who has had these things split on them ? At what kind of pressures did they do this and where exactly in the filter did it split ? Aside from the H&M filter what was the work around for these issues ?
My 66 fast back had a high revving small block in it and the original owner had transformed it into a mini gasser way back when . His family members reference it "Exploding" oil filters among other 4 speed related items but no one has any detailed info on that.
Ive never had one cone apart and I have always run the fram of the FL-1A with never any more than about 80 PSI.
It would take about 120 psi to explode a good filter. They will start to bulge a little under that.
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I can't say what might happen on a street engine, that runs for long periods but, the 427 LR I was running, in 1969, was a roller cam, drag race, race engine, so it ran for short periods. As I stated, somewhere above, on 20-50 Valvoline, it pegged the 120 lb gauge, when cold and ran in the 80's warm. I only used Fram filters in those days and never blew one but, there were warnings about that, in those days. Also, I never saw or heard of anyone blowing one at the track.
Since the 427 has always had the block relief valve, I would think that there would be more info about the high, cold pressures, related to the 427, on this forum.
Did the original 427 oil pumps have higher pressure relief valves and no one makes them any more?
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I will never use Fram oil filters again. After 2 filter failures you kinda get the message that their Q/C is not up to par. They didn't bulge, due to high oil pressure as I am not a big fan of ultra high oil pressure as once was believed that FEs needed 100+lbs to live. I aim for 60-65lbs hot/running to be sufficient. The Fram failures I experienced were in the internal bypass that caused a 25-30 lb loss of pressure under all conditions, cold, hot, made no difference. The filters just didn't flow properly.
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I'm not advocating high oil pressures. Even in '69, the standard for oil pressure was 10 lb per 1000 rpm. That puts the FE at about 70 lb max.
Today, the standard is more like 50-60 lb at any rpm for various reasons, compared to the old days. I still like to err on the high side though.
I was just stating what it was 50 years ago and the tracks didn't seem to be cover with oil, from busted filters.
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Im just looking for personal stories just like these as I think it does relate to the thread , not trying to hijack it Bill , Just learning a few things myself. Ive always kept mine in the 70s-80s but have been considering going higher the next time around just out of knowledge ive gained over the years with other things.
I havnt dealt with them until now but it would seem that this system in the 427 was a big advantage over its FE brethren and seems overlooked or atleast not spot lighted...
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Im just looking for personal stories just like these as I think it does relate to the thread , not trying to hijack it Bill , Just learning a few things myself. Ive always kept mine in the 70s-80s but have been considering going higher the next time around just out of knowledge ive gained over the years with other things.
I havnt dealt with them until now but it would seem that this system in the 427 was a big advantage over its FE brethren and seems overlooked or atleast not spot lighted...
From what I've seen over the years, 70's-80's is all you need and a lot of time, you don't even need that much. 75psi will cover your hindend to 8000 rpm on a properly spec'd combination.
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wix 51515r rated flow 28 gpm nitrile gasket 300 degree operating temp-- up to 500..burst psi the case is chunky / steel tube center/ anti-drain back valve only one for oldiron building/race fe since early 60s oem iron hirise head/block 10.5 pump gas 670hp iron hp coming!
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Im just looking for personal stories just like these as I think it does relate to the thread , not trying to hijack it Bill , Just learning a few things myself. Ive always kept mine in the 70s-80s but have been considering going higher the next time around just out of knowledge ive gained over the years with other things.
I havnt dealt with them until now but it would seem that this system in the 427 was a big advantage over its FE brethren and seems overlooked or atleast not spot lighted...
From what I've seen over the years, 70's-80's is all you need and a lot of time, you don't even need that much. 75psi will cover your hindend to 8000 rpm on a properly spec'd combination.
From the engine design side, I agree with this. Bearings create their own film pressure. You just need a full oil supply at slightly above zero psi to let them do their thing. What the excess pressure does is create leakage flow out the sides. This carries away heat - very important at high loads! The engine builder guys will tell you that side clearance is important. This is the reason.
If you don't believe me, Google Reynolds Equation and journal bearing lubrication. If you can get through that, you're a hero! The upshot is that a journal bearing pulls oil into a "wedge" area of high pressure (can be > 3000 psi in an engine).
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Side clearance is a really obscure topic - or so it seems. I have run some really tight (.007) without apparent ill effect. Race applications with piston guided rods have run at over .125. One guy I respect likes about four times the bearing clearance as a minimum.
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I would agree with most of that . Also I am throwing a question out there to you guys that have been in this for a very long time and seen it I think its relative .
The oil filter issue Who has had these things split on them ? At what kind of pressures did they do this and where exactly in the filter did it split ? Aside from the H&M filter what was the work around for these issues ?
My 66 fast back had a high revving small block in it and the original owner had transformed it into a mini gasser way back when . His family members reference it "Exploding" oil filters among other 4 speed related items but no one has any detailed info on that.
Ive never had one cone apart and I have always run the fram of the FL-1A with never any more than about 80 PSI.
Any good quality filter should be up to the hot pressures normally encountered,it is the cold start spikes that you have to worry about,damage may not be an immediate burst but a weakening of the shell crimp that may leak later.The thick shell filters such as the old H/M piece and the purolator it was relabeled from as well as the mentioned Wix r filters and Baldwin B253 have a burst pressure of 350-600 psi due to the thicker shells and backplates allowing a stronger crimp joint.The work around would be to have a preheater to warm the oil before starts.I believe the nascar teams choice of them was more around making things as bullet proof as possible to prevent a possible failure in the middle of a 500 mile race than due to the oil pressure they run.
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It sure would be nice to understand all you ''mad FE scientists'' !
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OK , I am going to bring something up and I dont want to hear any SH@#$ . It was the craziest thing I had seen or heard of at the time and it made me think all sorts of things about engines.
So I am sitting on the beach in Daytona doing my best to become a retired Bum and this Canadian company kept bugging me about coming to work on a few projects up here in MD which is my home town.
Well finally they threw the kinda money you cant turn down and I begrudgingly came back up the road. THis was about 6 years and two natural gas fired plants . Yeah I know it sounds irrelative .
So each of these plants have two turbines in them that seem about as long as half a foot ball field . These things are mammoth . They came in by boat and we had roads closed and all kinds of the serious moving equipment to bring these things in . I forget what the lift was on them but it was pretty insane . So big . Huge.
Power plants arent my thing but its a huge machine so I would go out and look and try to figure out how this thing works as it was going together . Well when they started unwrapping these turbines and making the support sytems for them I saw that it had bearing surfaces . Like Crankshaft bearings. ANd for the life of me I could not figure out how those bearings would last any time at all with that kind of weight on them . I mean these turbines are rolling when this thing is turned up . Its not a slow speed operation . SO then the oiling systems started coming up and being put together and I had a guy who was well versed in the whole thing give me the 411 on how this thing doesnt fly apart in like an hour.
Anyhow long story long . Before the turbines even start to spin up the oiling systems run and pressure builds . The Turbine is then floated with oil pressure and then thats how the bearings which I swear to god just look like huge main bearings survive...
SO then I start thinking about this whole oil film thing and cars etc etc etc.... SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....
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SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....
I'm gunna have a stab at none. The oil pressure is there merely to keep up replenishment of the hydrodynamic wedge as it is lost through clearances......of course I could be wrong.
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I would agree but just a tiny tiny bit of hydraulic power can overcome quite a bit of mechanical force...
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SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....
I'm gunna have a stab at none. The oil pressure is there merely to keep up replenishment of the hydrodynamic wedge as it is lost through clearances......of course I could be wrong.
Ding Ding Ding! Winner :D The hydrodynamic wedge does leak out. The extra flow also carries away A LOT of heat that would destroy the bearing in short order.
I almost started my career at GE Steam Turbine Division, but then I got the opportunity to go to Ford. Yeah I bet those big bearings do need to float the machine a bit at startup, but once it's running the wedge will be self-sustaining. They're cool machines, but not very exciting to work on. The drawings they showed me during my interview were all at least 60 years old :o
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One thing I have never agreed with, is the insistence by some that the hot tip was to plug and disable the rear pressure relief on the hipo blocks, and let the pump bypass handle everything. Ford spent a lot of money developing that setup, and it always made sense to me, it doesn't by pass until good pressure gets to the end of the system, and allows for a somewhat (but far from exact) consistent pressure- why would you want to disable it? How is it possibly better without the rear relief? I remember Bobby bitching about it (imagine that lol), blamed it for blowing a filter- but the filter is at the beginning of the system, by the pump bypass, not at the end of the system
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Maybe off topic a little but a story about the in block bypass.
I had to rebuild my tunnel port due to a spun rod bearing at a Bakersfield race. Because I needed to regrind the crank I went ahead and offset it to 3.99 stroke with a 2.20 journal and ordered BBC rods and new pistons. Since I was going to get the block bored to a BBC 4.250 I took the block to a noted West Coast shop that builds stock and super-stock motors (mostly Chev.) for the machine work. The block was finished and it looked great, everything was done to the right dimensions and the block was cleaned and painted and ready to assemble. I found myself being pressed for time because I had a Winternationals entry paid in super-gas and I needed to get the car running. After finishing up without a lot a time to spare I fired up the motor in the garage and only ran it a few minutes. It sounded great and and the oil pressure was up around normal cold idle about 60psi+ (20/50 Valvoline)
I loaded up and took it to Pomona and got set up in the pits. Firing up the car I headed to tech, as I was driving to the tech lane i noticed the oil pressure started falling! oh oh. I turned around and headed back to my pit. I checked the oil, pulled the distributor and a valve cover and spun the oil pump. It had oil to the rockers. Fired it up again and watched it go almost to zero. Took it home to figure it out and found the bypass valve and spring in backward. (Chevy guys) with cold oil it couldn't leak out all of it and still built pressure, as it warmed the oil flowed out and pressure fell, luckily I didn't hurt anything.
All was well after turning it around.
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On the subject of by pass,or pressure relief are they the same as a regulator?
If the regulator is at the end of the system wouldn’t all the fluid prior to it be the set pressure?
With a pump by pass wouldn’t gallery pressure drop after the highest restriction ?
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Do the aftermarket blocks use the factory style relief valve?
I have not owned one "yet".
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Do the aftermarket blocks use the factory style relief valve?
I have not owned one "yet".
No sir.
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Gonna throw this on the "pump" in the next few days. Thanks to a tip I got here, I was able to score a small block Ford 5/8" pickup. It should bolt up.
(https://i.ibb.co/T0JzWfW/IMG-6067.jpg)
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OK , I am going to bring something up and I dont want to hear any SH@#$ . It was the craziest thing I had seen or heard of at the time and it made me think all sorts of things about engines.
So I am sitting on the beach in Daytona doing my best to become a retired Bum and this Canadian company kept bugging me about coming to work on a few projects up here in MD which is my home town.
Well finally they threw the kinda money you cant turn down and I begrudgingly came back up the road. THis was about 6 years and two natural gas fired plants . Yeah I know it sounds irrelative .
So each of these plants have two turbines in them that seem about as long as half a foot ball field . These things are mammoth . They came in by boat and we had roads closed and all kinds of the serious moving equipment to bring these things in . I forget what the lift was on them but it was pretty insane . So big . Huge.
Power plants arent my thing but its a huge machine so I would go out and look and try to figure out how this thing works as it was going together . Well when they started unwrapping these turbines and making the support sytems for them I saw that it had bearing surfaces . Like Crankshaft bearings. ANd for the life of me I could not figure out how those bearings would last any time at all with that kind of weight on them . I mean these turbines are rolling when this thing is turned up . Its not a slow speed operation . SO then the oiling systems started coming up and being put together and I had a guy who was well versed in the whole thing give me the 411 on how this thing doesnt fly apart in like an hour.
Anyhow long story long . Before the turbines even start to spin up the oiling systems run and pressure builds . The Turbine is then floated with oil pressure and then thats how the bearings which I swear to god just look like huge main bearings survive...
SO then I start thinking about this whole oil film thing and cars etc etc etc.... SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....
While the oil wedge prevents metal to metal contact during run,during the initial roll the pressurized oil is needed to support the rotating element until the oil wedge is formed.The journal bearings you describe are commonly used in steam turbines and large electric motors and generators.In the Navy they are used on both the main propulsion turbines and the ship service turbine generators ,at the paper mill I worked at,they were used in the 25,000 hp electric motors for the refiners,if they are run continuously with an oil supply they will show almost no wear even after years of use,99.999% of wear happens at the initial roll and even a momentary loss of oil film will wipe the bearing.The most surprising thing about them is the ease that they can be changed with the correct tools.
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Yeah not much to that . The very end had a tower and that was about as you would expect it to be . The center supports were a bit more hard to get at but not bad. Each had an oil system with many many drums of oil that went into each. In fact that pipping and the pumps and the controls took up much of the floor space around the turbine at ground level.
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Gonna throw this on the "pump" in the next few days. Thanks to a tip I got here, I was able to score a small block Ford 5/8" pickup. It should bolt up.
(https://i.ibb.co/T0JzWfW/IMG-6067.jpg)
Hi guys - I just finished running the 5/8" pickup with the Melling M-57 HV and Melling M-57 B pumps. The real difference I see is that the bigger pickup seems to help with that pressure "dip" we saw on the M-57 B standard volume pump. This curve shows slightly higher pressure across the board with the big pickup, but I'm not convinced that's real. There is likely a run-to-run difference in the orifice valve position on the rig that would account for that.
(https://i.ibb.co/hRNxWTX/Melling-M-57-B-Pressure-Stock-and-Big-Pickup.png)
You can see the difference in that pressure "dip" area. Perhaps there was some kind of turbulence or resonance that's more pronounced with the stock pickup. Here's the HV pump. You can see that the curves are almost laying on top of each other. For some reason this time the bypass valve decided to open at 94 psi instead of 92 psi. I can't explain that with the changing of the pickup!
(https://i.ibb.co/BcPKcRN/Melling-M-57-HV-Pressure-Stock-and-Big-Pickup.png)
Any insight or discussion would be appreciated. I would say that the bigger pickup can only help, and in the case of the standard volume M-57 B it seems to smooth out a higher rpm pressure dip.
Again I attached the curve images so you can open them up and better see them. The flow curves look very similar so I figured they'd be redundant.
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My first concern was the pressure would actually drop with the larger tubing. Glad to see it did not. Great information. Joe-JDC
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94/92 = 2 psi difference = 2.17% difference, likely within a 98% confidence interval. I'd ignore this minimal difference or run the test 2 more times....and average all 3. If so, I'll bet the difference would drop to maybe 1 psi, maybe even less. JMO.
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My first concern was the pressure would actually drop with the larger tubing. Glad to see it did not. Great information. Joe-JDC
Why would it drop? I'm not as sharp as most guys here, but it seems like this is a simple case of supply vs demand. Especially at higher pump speeds, if the pump is meeting a restriction on the suction side(such as a small pickup tube), then it would seem as a larger diameter pickup would be beneficial. Can the pickup tube be too large? Like 3/4"? The inlet to the pump should be suited to match the upsizing I would assume, or there is still a bottleneck. I would think unless you start sucking air at some point, the more available(oil through pickup), the better. This may not always be needed though, as with milder builds/lower rpm/thinner oils. Wouldn't an analogy of trying to suck air through a coffee stirrer and then again through a regular straw be the same principal?
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For some reason this time the bypass valve decided to open at 94 psi instead of 92 psi. I can't explain that with the changing of the pickup!
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If the pump is bypassing internally wouldn't the smaller pickup showing a restriction cause a bit of pull on the back side of relief valve possibly?
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For some reason this time the bypass valve decided to open at 94 psi instead of 92 psi. I can't explain that with the changing of the pickup!
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If the pump is bypassing internally wouldn't the smaller pickup showing a restriction cause a bit of pull on the back side of relief valve possibly?
I think the rear of the bypass valve is not exposed to suction-side pressure. It just seems to be a closed chamber with a spring and cup plug. If that's the case, the suction pressure would have little effect.
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Would like to see what what would happen if the oil supply to the pump was above the pump
Ricky.
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Would like to see what what would happen if the oil supply to the pump was above the pump
Ricky.
Probably not much, except that the pump would stay primed and pressure would come up much faster on startup. In order to add 1 psi to the static output pressure, the oil supply would have to be about 30 inches above the pump. (That's from the density of a column of oil - gauge pressure at the bottom of the column.)
In reality a lot of the pressure loss is from pipe flow friction in the passages. This gets worse as the flow rate goes up.
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Would like to see what what would happen if the oil supply to the pump was above the pump
Ricky.
NPSH doesn't affect positive displacement pumps nearly as much as it does centrifugal pumps.
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Have you run the pump up to 8500? Just curious, as there are guys that take them that high, will it just flat-line or will it start to drop or dip at some point higher than shown (7500)?
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Have you run the pump up to 8500? Just curious, as there are guys that take them that high, will it just flat-line or will it start to drop or dip at some point higher than shown (7500)?
I think the M-57 B will keep going for a bit, while the M-57 HV will just keep bypassing (flow slowly dropping off as it aerates the oil).
Next time I get a chance I'll pull the M-57 B up to 8,500. It should do fine up there.
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Would like to see what what would happen if the oil supply to the pump was above the pump
Ricky.
Probably not much,
The comparison would be as to the fluid level of the sump to the pump position; in the typical Ford V8 with the oil pump submerged in the sump the pump receives oil readily, and generally remains primed for restarts, but removing the pump from this position such as higher timing cover or external block mountings then the changes in the relation of the reservoir fluid level may have dramatic effects. ;)
A time ago we did some testing work for an oil pump manufacture who's product was not accomplishing that which they claimed; we were at a loggerhead as our definitive results as mounted to the engine just were not as their "engineers" had reaped from their test stand! In passing I asked: so, where is the oil reservoir in relation to the pump mounting on your testing fixture? Answer: several feet above the pump, by this won't make any difference as this is a positive displacement pump design. I said well, why don't you move the oil volume down to the level of the pump, and with further testing even below as is required in some installations and watch what happens! Their engineer called me back and stated that with those changes their results mirrored ours! Sorry. ::)
Scott.
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I would say that pump was having trouble keeping a prime. Perhaps a leak in the pickup path somewhere? Millions of production geroter pumps run just fine sitting above the oil bath. On my test rig, the pumps are not in the oil bath and they pull up pressure quickly.
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I would say that pump was having trouble keeping a prime. Perhaps a leak in the pickup path somewhere?
If this is response to my previous post?.................then nope!
We also did repeated testing of the "ideal" diameter for this pick-up path, and note that it must be established just exactly how much oil is being distributed but for say something around eight gallons per minute as this is an approachable sum for a somewhat "lose" big block, and finding that 1/2" I.D. sufficient for up to say 8" approx., then 5/8" for longer distances which should cover most in the pan installations, for external pump installations -12 hose for reasonable runs in the engine compartment with no real benefit for -16 hose unless running the length of the chassis distances (though we have chosen otherwise in some instances), say dry-sump reservoir mounted in the trunk with perhaps limited drop in elevation. But, definitely avoid having to "lift" the oil to the pump inlet! ;)
And, if pumping in excess of say eight gallons or more per minute, those little boxes with the perforated steel sheet "screen" mounted on the end of the P.U. tubes really.......... "sucks"! ::)
Also for many, one needs to reconsider just how close one thinks the P.U. inlet should be to the bottom of the pan. :-\
Remember, one does want to avoid creating an excessive pressure drop in this inlet path, even if the pump is able to maintain the outlet sum, as there will be a loss in the quality of the delivery.
And also, there are many other variables not present within a test stand versus mounted to functioning engine that at times muddies the water so to speak, much as with air flow numbers from a flow bench versus which cylinder head that actually made more power. This doesn't negate the observation and value of the endeavor, and I do really appreciate this thread looking forward to the observations and discoveries being presented thru what many might not realize is a great sum of effort by Mr. Conley, but still, it may prove frustrating when one experience doesn't mirror another other. :)
Scott.
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While NPSH(oil above suction of the pump) shouldn't have a major effect on the positive displacement pump performance it will minimize if not eliminate the effect of any air leakage into the suction side of the pump.The typical mass produced bolt on oil pickup tube with thin paper gasket and sweated on flange hardly qualify as the most reliable method of air tight joint,while they obviously work well enough for the majority of rigs out there,every time I installed one I wondered about how much air leaks in there.The more modern engine oil systems with their o-ring sealed joints appear that they would be better,but then how much cost does that add.While minor leaks on the pressure side just eats into the excess capacity of the pump air into the suction can have a major effect on pump performance.
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While NPSH(oil above suction of the pump) shouldn't have a major effect on the positive displacement pump performance it will minimize if not eliminate the effect of any air leakage into the suction side of the pump...
This was my point. If a positive displacement pump is seeing strong output changes from a few inches variation in the input head pressure, there's a problem. That problem typically involves input side air leakage.
Think about it. The pump is an inch above the oil bath, and is not delivering as expected. You move the pump down an inch and suddenly all is well. If that inch of suction-side static pressure head made the difference, then moving the pump up another inch away from the oil would make it twice as bad. My years of experience (and graduate level study of hydraulics) do not support this. The only difference is that the inlet side is submerged and can no longer leak.
Now if we're talking about non-positive displacement pumps, all bets are off. They will be affected by changes in inlet head pressure. In fact, the definition of a true positive displacement pump is one where flow is independent of pressure.
That's the key term. Flow is independent of pressure. A geroter pump is almost a true positive displacement pump, because there is slight leakage. For our purposes and at the speeds we run our pumps, they can be treated as truly positive displacement. It takes large pressure changes (many psi) to have a noticeable effect on flow. I have seen this on my test rig when I adjust the orifice valve. A slight change in inlet side static pressure head (<< 1 psi) will not create a measurable change in output. Of course, you need to have sufficient flow capacity to the inlet (pipe size).
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While NPSH(oil above suction of the pump) shouldn't have a major effect on the positive displacement pump performance it will minimize if not eliminate the effect of any air leakage into the suction side of the pump.
This was my point. If a positive displacement pump is seeing strong output changes from a few inches variation in the input head pressure, there's a problem. That problem typically involves input side air leakage.
Though not exactly the same effect, but there seems to apparently be the unconsidered fact that an air leakage in a functioning engine is not required as described as the oil is generally already well aerated at the point of ingestion at the siphon tube entrance, this greatly instilled with not only the pumping and by-passing as witnessed and described previously in this thread with it's negative effect on the pumping efficiency, but also the rest of the path required for the oils' return to the pan, and the sum of aeration varies greatly with operating conditions that the engine subjected to.
This consideration is probably the greatest value in the increased capacity oil pans' purpose. Think about it, if your pumping say as much as eight gallons a minute from a less than two gallon reservoir how much time is being allotted for de-aeration? And have you witnessed the appearance of the oil after its' tortuous route? :o
And this is one of the reasons one doesn't want to draw to hard on the siphon tube as these little air bubbles expand in area as the pressure drops this displacing the wanted liquid volume, and compromises the pumps capabilities and further upsets the bypass function and effect. :)
Scott.
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While I agree that entrained air can cause flow and pressure fluctuations ,I don't believe it will cause a catastrophic temporary loss of flow like ingestion of free air.If all the entrained air was able to somehow overcome the surface tension of the oil and merge into one big bubble it would have the same effect but fortunately thats not the case.What would be interesting would be to observe the visual appearance of the oil in the sump while monitoring the appearance of the oil under pressure in an extended run to see if when oil in the sump starts to appear aerated at what point does the pressurized oil start to appear aerated,and when and if this happens what does flow and pressure do.
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Hello,
I joined just so I could post in this thread. What a great "dyno" test stand. Mad skills and knowledge to put that together.
I didn't read every post, so sorry if this has been asked and answered:
What viscosity oil did you use in the testing, and have you heated the oil up to 180* or so and run it ?
It might be interesting to see what a pump would do with 10-40 vs 20-50 with the oil temp at 180*. Also a "dino" oil and a synthetic oil of the same viscosity. Over the years I've run several engines back to back with conventional oil vs Mobil 1. From 342", 351, 512, 565 (current engine 950 hp single 1,050) the least I've seen was 8 hp - the most 15.
Anyway .... GREAT DEAL !!!
Jon
I have a Stroker (4.25 x 3.98) project I'm working on with Barry's MR heads. Hopefully it will be together this year. I'll post up about it later. I have a lot of reading to catch up to on my FE stuff.
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Jon - Welcome aboard and thanks for the kind words!
All test runs were done with 10W-30 conventional oil at 200 deg F. Simply running the rig up to speed for several minutes will heat the oil to that temperature. That gives you an idea of how much heat is generated by 2+ HP of parasitic load.
Yeah it would be interesting to compare conventional and synthetic oils of different viscosities. Right now I've got the rig tied up for a couple of more months to develop a new pump design. (The new pump is the reason I built the rig in the first place, and I'll share that work here in due time!)
A study of different oils will be interesting, but time-consuming. I have to drain and purge the oil completely with every change. Being a big fan of Mobil-1 though, it would be cool to see how the viscosity holds up with temperature.
Again, glad to have you here Jon!
- Bill
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Gerry - I think it's the time sitting still in the dry sump tank is key to getting air out. There would be so little time sitting in the filter that I don't think we'll see much of an effect.
Sorry if this re-hashes something you've already covered. I apologize in advance. And thanks for the info in the above post.
Is it just the time that matters ?
If oil has has pass thru something like 12-16 micron filter would that not "squeeze" some of the air out of the oil ?
This is a Baldwin Cummings filter I adapted for the boat 8 years ago. It flows 24 gpm at 10 psi with a 12 micron element.
It flows 10 gpm at just 3 psi.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/aa150/Sleepercp/(edited)%205652013_zpsdfd6c271.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Sleepercp/a/a4b9730f-1f83-4990-bb60-b95f34e9ea17/p/d6230549-9f36-4ff2-ac55-abd6e96cdde9)
After the rebuild this year I might be switching back to the dual B253's ( 18 micons flow 12 gpm at 5 psi):
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Engine%20stuff/.highres/oilfilters.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Sleepercp/a/e270eea0-14be-4a48-9b63-bd20c16995a2/p/3d0549d1-5d10-4f05-b062-10b3cee7e462)
The Cummings filter does not have a bypass. Still makes me nervous after 8 years of running it .... lol
Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.
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Jon -
From my experience and everything I have read, a filter isn't going to be effective for removing entrained air. The hydraulics guys use centrifugal separators to force the air out at high velocity. Some dry sump reservoirs use a tangential (swirling) return to help accomplish the same thing.
I've never seen a filter used successfully. The air has nowhere to go if the bubbles get blocked, since there is only oil inside. I would think the bubbles would get broken up further until they can pass through the media. The air would have to stay in the oil. Tanks or separators allow the air bubbles to escape from the oil and stay away.
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That makes sense.
Thanks.
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Jon -
.............. a filter isn't going to be effective for removing entrained air.
I've never seen a filter used successfully. The air has nowhere to go if the bubbles get blocked, since there is only oil inside. I would think the bubbles would get broken up further until they can pass through the media. The air would have to stay in the oil.
Agreed. Once air is entrained on the high pressure side there isn't going to be any opportunity to remove it until after it's release into the free area of the crankcase.
But for thought, filter media can be used to aid in the removal of oil from air, as in vane or rotary-screw air compressors' oil-air separators mounted post the compressed-air-ends. ???
Scott.