So finally fixed my noisy 445!

[My427stang]

If you end up needing a new block are you considering using your Probe pistons and fitting the block to them?  Just wondering.  I'm glad you definitively found the issue.

paulie

Great detective work Ross, sounds like you found the problem.  Have you thought about just getting a new block and getting it machined to fit the pistons you have?

Paulie,Jay,  I have to decide the plan for the engine.  I am torn between a resurrection of what it was and delaying for a small centrifugal blower and FITech at the end of the summer.  The truck has a fresh little 9.5 390 with a SM and 750 in it now, runs great, and really needs disc brakes up front and some rear traction control & less spring out back first.

I have a standard bore 390 block If you need it, never been re-worked, still has the factory head gasket pattern in the top of the deck. I was going to post it on Craigslist this week.

If that sounds interesting, you have my email.

Thanks!  I will email you, might go that route

[2ndgear]

Crazy thought Ross
What if a guy would harblock the block up to the water pump holes without the heads(torque plate) on and then will the clearances stay there once you put the heads back on? On the other hand when a guy harblocks a block does he do it with the torque plate in place? If so, what happens when you remove the torque plate? If every thing stays the same after it is harblock then would a guy need to retorque plate the block to bore it again with the harblock already installed? In your pickup it would not run nearly as hot as in a mustang because of the room under the hood. If a guy wanted to get crazy could you kneer just the couple of the loose pistons? I am just trying to learn and sorry if this is off base.

[My427stang]

Crazy thought Ross
What if a guy would harblock the block up to the water pump holes without the heads(torque plate) on and then will the clearances stay there once you put the heads back on? On the other hand when a guy harblocks a block does he do it with the torque plate in place? If so, what happens when you remove the torque plate? If every thing stays the same after it is harblock then would a guy need to retorque plate the block to bore it again with the harblock already installed? In your pickup it would not run nearly as hot as in a mustang because of the room under the hood. If a guy wanted to get crazy could you kneer just the couple of the loose pistons? I am just trying to learn and sorry if this is off base.

It's not crazy, but I think this block was prepped without a torque plate and that is the only issue, assuming it sonic checks good.

The hard block wouldn't hurt, but, I would expect the guy would hardblock it, then torque plate hone and it'd stay in one place.

The base of the cylinders having a little hard block shouldn't make it run hot, but not sure it's needed.   As far as knurling, I have certainly done it years ago, but the 2618 piston likely would wear pretty quick and I still wouldn't have a straight bore, causing rings to crap out pretty quick as well as lose power

In the end, should have not used the block, should have had one prepped properly, but it's a good learning tool because I only 1/2 cared about torque plates before.  I used them on the upper end stuff, and didn't worry about the mellow stuff.  I'll always use one now

[Barry_R]

... I only 1/2 cared about torque plates before.  I used them on the upper end stuff, and didn't worry about the mellow stuff.  I'll always use one now

Another conversion!
Can I get an amen!

[machoneman]

Amen! Hah!

Here's my now 15 year old post from the old 351C Net 54 Forum on thin walls, the Chinese Lantern effect and odd bore marks. Point is, loose wall clearances can produce the odd bottom-of-cylinder marks that My427stang showed us. Big fan of torque plates here on any, even low-po builds.


August 25 2003, 9:52 PM

that's a new one to me. The "Chinese lantern" effect is most apparent near the top of the bores in overbored 351C's. Thinned walls, head bolt torque and heat create a lantern pattern of small checks or boxes. This also usually occurs in the pin bore areas (where 12 o'clock is top of bore towards intake side, bore marks show up at the 2-4 o'clock and 8-10 o'clock positions) since the thrust sides (piston skirts) are thicker and the pin bore areas between each cylinder are thinner to allow for water flow.

Although it's hard to tell, my guess is your picture shows the effects of pistons sitting in the same position for a long time. Note that the rough "Y" shape corresponds to the contact areas on a piston and its skirt, below the rings. However, if all the Y's are in the same position (say, down 2" in each bore) this can't be it since all eight can never stop in the same postion as long as they were hooked to a crank.

Is this a std. 4.00 bore block?
 
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glen
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63.155.4.148   

... I only 1/2 cared about torque plates before.  I used them on the upper end stuff, and didn't worry about the mellow stuff.  I'll always use one now

Another conversion!
Can I get an amen!

[My427stang]

... I only 1/2 cared about torque plates before.  I used them on the upper end stuff, and didn't worry about the mellow stuff.  I'll always use one now

Another conversion!
Can I get an amen!

ROFL!

I often wonder how some things ran as good as they did in my early years

[Lenz]

Gotta chime in and just say that this thread has been great from an educational standpoint.  It does make me wonder though, the more I read I would agree that I've been "fortunate" at least in the past by not experiencing any of the problems that garage build short cuts can produce.  I can appreciate the level of frustration and then patience it takes to get to the bottom of this.  The whole ordeal expresses the "never say die" attitude of a true motorhead.

[c6rod]

Ross, you're preaching to the choir on that one.

I pulled the 428 out of my '56 'Bird because I couldn't get it to run cool. Stuffed a 352 I built from my junk pile in it.

The little motor ran so well I never pulled it back out. Funny how burned out you can get trying to fix something that you just don't want to fix it again after you've "fixed" the problem.

Glad the 390 runs well. give it a rest for a while.

Off the subject of the noisy 445. I am considering putting an FE in a little Bird. Any info you can supply would be appreciated. Things like how you did the motor mounts, who made the headers etc. 
Thanks in advance

[jayb]

ROFL!

I often wonder how some things ran as good as they did in my early years

Ha!  In my early years, I wouldn't have known to listen for a noise like that, and would have probably figured that was the way it was supposed to sound with those new, high tech TRWs in there.  As long as it was going fast I would've been happy.  I'll bet going back 35 or 40 years, knowing what I know now, I'd have been horrified by the noises my engines were making LOL!

[Drew Pojedinec]

See Jay, this is the benefit of being partially deaf in certain ranges..... I just don't worry that much 
Just messing around, good job finally finding it (hopefully)

[wowens]

I used straight thru Thrush mufflers bolted to the headers with no tail pipes. My engines never pinged or rattled.  Now I am all most legally deaf.

[cjshaker]

First, good work finding what appears to have been the issue, Ross.
I'll admit it took me a while to warm to the idea that torque plates are a necessity, even argued about it with several guys back then. But then I saw some pictures that someone posted on the old forum, many years ago, of cylinders in the early stages of honing while using torque plates. I saw the high and low spots that appeared from the cylinders being pulled out of shape. It was pretty dramatic and very noticeable. That was enough to convince me.

I think the simplest solution is to drop a flathead in there. I've got several if you need one

[My427stang]

First, good work finding what appears to have been the issue, Ross.
I'll admit it took me a while to warm to the idea that torque plates are a necessity, even argued about it with several guys back then. But then I saw some pictures that someone posted on the old forum, many years ago, of cylinders in the early stages of honing while using torque plates. I saw the high and low spots that appeared from the cylinders being pulled out of shape. It was pretty dramatic and very noticeable. That was enough to convince me.

I think the simplest solution is to drop a flathead in there. I've got several if you need one

So here is the bad part, by slipping the bench build 390 in there, (cast zero deck pistons, CJ rods, cast iron 427 crank, stock D2s, 272 Crane, recurved Duraspark, Streetmaster, 750 vac sec) the truck fires up silently, runs well, not too fast but does OK, looks pretty and is happy on cheapo regular

If the engine bay was empty, I'd be in a hurry, now, I have all these parts sitting around and don't care that much LOL

I have half a mind ready to sell off the stroker parts or put on the shelf, slap the ported D2s on the little motor and put EFI and disc brakes on the truck.  The Mustang would sure be happy if I paid a little attention to it too!

[turbohunter]

Lot to be said for having a solid always ready truck.
Mustang prolly misses you and maybe a new project (he said with little devil horns)

[My427stang]

Lot to be said for having a solid always ready truck.
Mustang prolly misses you and maybe a new project (he said with little devil horns)

So those devil horns exist.  The problem is the next level of Mustang would be unnaturally aspirated and the right way to do that is build from scratch and put the 489 in the truck....

One disclaimer, hard to call my truck a truck anymore, my daily driver is a crew cab 4x4 diesel, the truck is just sort of a bench seat hell-raiser.  So, yes, hard to swap a good running engine out, but hard to keep it in there too LOL