FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on October 03, 2023, 07:07:13 AM
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Unless I've missed something, I haven't seen many builds being documented with Jay's cylinder heads. I thought I would throw this out there, as I have a build in progress, and it may generate some dialogue.
This has been a painful build in terms of wait times. Jay got me the heads, intake adapter, and rocker arms fairly quickly, but up until a few weeks ago, I had been waiting on the crankshaft for about 9 months. It's finally starting to come together.
The engine is 511 cubic inches, using a 4.375" bore and a 4.250" stroke. Block is a Shelby aluminum block, that has been honed with torque plates, sleeves set and decks squared up, mains align honed, and has had .904" bronze lifter bore bushings installed.
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Bryant made the crankshaft for me, as the customer requested a billet crankshaft. It was REM polished, which produces an almost mirror finish on all the journals, counterweights, etc. By the time it was all said and done, this ended up being a $5700 crankshaft.
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The rods are Callies Ultra I-Beams, in 6.800" length.
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Pistons are custom Diamond pieces. This will be a dry sump engine, so we are running vertical gas ports and we're using DLC coated Trend wrist pins with custom pin clearance.
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There's about $18000 in this picture.....
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I worked out a solid roller lobe that would be fairly easy on the valvetrain, but would also get me the lift I need to take advantage of the heads. This was made on a special round lobe core, in order to get the durations we need, the long LSA, and the .820" gross lift.
I'm using BAM pressure fed lifters, with a .904" diameter for a little extra valve action, stability, and strength. They have an offset pushrod cup on the intake lifter, which gives us a little better pushrod angle with Jay's heads.
Speaking of the heads....
These are a pair of Jay's castings that have been ported. I ordered some custom Ferrea titanium valves and even with a 2.300" valve head diameter and a much longer length than standard FE stuff, we are still under 96 grams on the weight. The exhaust valve weighs 74 grams. Both feature a bead lock groove and hardened tips.
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The valve springs are Manley NexTeks and we are using Manley spring locators, titanium retainers, and valve locks.
The flow numbers for the heads are as follows:
.100 80/54
.200 165/114
.300 245/174
.400 310/213
.500 356/240
.600 390/257
.700 415/268
.800 430/275
With the flat valve faces, the chambers measure about 61cc's. This helps out tremendously on having pistons made, as these pistons came up at 32cc dish, aiming for ~11:1 compression. This is a "street engine", so we didn't want to get carried away with compression.
We had initially given Diamond a copy of Jay's cylinder head solid models so that they could make pistons accordingly. Upon piston/valve clearance checks, I found that they didn't stick the valve relief eyebrows in the right spot. The valves get pretty close over the quench "rim" of the piston but we still have adequate piston/valve clearance, so I didn't modify them. I didn't want to lose the compression, nor did I want to wait on Diamond to make new ones or modify these. As parts are now trickling in, I want to keep the momentum up. So, if any of you guys decide to order pistons in the future from Diamond to work with Jay's heads, you may want to keep that info in your back pocket.
I have oil system parts inbound from Aviaid. Not too fond of their oil pans, they usually require a lot of modifications, but I absolutely love their dry sump pumps. They will pull 15 inches of vacuum very easily.
We will be using Jay's intake adapter, along with his cross-ram EFI setup. Plan is to send the engine to Jay for wiring and EFI fitment, then he will dyno at his place. Plans can change and if I can talk Jay into sending me a 2x4 or 1x4 carbureted intake, I may just spin it up here first.
Did a lot of valvetrain mock-up over the weekend. I usually spend a few hours on getting geometry correct. I found that the rocker mounting bar needs to be raised up about .120" in order to get the pattern right over the valve stem and I verified this with some mid-lift geometry checks. I keep a plethora of pushrods around, so I was also able to check out some pushrod/lifter/rocker arm clearance checks.
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Not a bad little pattern at all, considering we're sitting at about .800" lift here.
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Making progress.....have head gaskets and other parts on the way, so hope to show more later this week.
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Great work and very nice stuff Brent and Jay!
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That is a really nice build.
Looking forward for the dyno numbers for the street engine.
Be curious about it with 11-1 compression.
I will order one when I win the lottery.
Greg
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Fancy ........ Nice work Brent.
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Lots of nice parts there and the accompanying attention to detail of course.
What is the width of those intake ports? I realize it’s an apples to oranges comparison to Ford heads.
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Thanks for the build post Brent. Been waiting for a few of these to pop up. My set of heads should be available in a few weeks and I'll get my own thread going.
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That Crankshaft is so purdy it needs a clear oil pan
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Looking good Brent!
Nice to see a high $ FE build.
The components look fantastic.
I assume solid roller cam?
Cheers
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Lots of nice parts there and the accompanying attention to detail of course.
What is the width of those intake ports? I realize it’s an apples to oranges comparison to Ford heads.
1.550-1.560".
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Nice attention to detail. I saw the build.
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Is it too early to guess horsepower ?
I say 425... at 3000 .... and considerably more as the RPM goes up !
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Is it too early to guess horsepower ?
I say 425... at 3000 .... and considerably more as the RPM goes up !
I think it would be a decent time to start estimating. I have two builds going on with Jay's heads and the only real data I have is from his dyno mule.
If we compare this engine to his, we have:
*Same displacement.
*~15cfm more flow on the heads with this engine.
*Dry sump on this engine.
*Crossram EFI intake on this engine.
*11:1 compression on this engine compared to 13:1 on Jay's
*Added a little more duration split and lift on this cam as opposed to Jay's.
Pros for making horsepower: dry sump will add power, 15cfm more head will add power, camshaft tweaks should add power.
Cons for making horsepower: 11:1 vs 13:1 will suck power away, crossram EFI will take power away.
So, I'll just throw my hands up and say I don't really have a good feel on where it will go on power. Any data is good data though, so we shall find out.
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need sheet metal tunnel ram with (2) 1250 CFM dominators and 15 to 1 compression
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So, with the engine all together, $35,000?
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So, with the engine all together, $35,000?
My part of the build is probably that. Jay supplied a lot of the parts and was paid directly.
There was nothing cheap about any part of this build. Engine block was $8000, crank was $5700, rods were about $2400, pistons/pins/rings were ~$2000, it just keeps going. Even when you look at the dry sump kit, it's $2800-3000 for most of it, but you end up spending about $500-600 just on nice AN fittings and hoses. Adds up quick.
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Thanks. Now that is one high dollar engine for sure.
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This is certainly an FE engine.
Fairly Expensive.
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I have oil system parts inbound from Aviaid. Not too fond of their oil pans, they usually require a lot of modifications, but I absolutely love their dry sump pumps. They will pull 15 inches of vacuum very easily.
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I agree on the dry sump oil pan, I was very disappointed in the pan I received from them and sent it back. Ended up making my own,, then sold it lol so had to make another and sold that one to at the reunion so now I'm making a third which kinda works out because each time I have made some slight changes. I knew all those bread box oil pans I had would come in handy someday..
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The system that Dailey Engineering makes looks pretty sharp. Not sure if anyone on here has ever used one. I called kicking the tires on pricing before, as I recall it was $5K.
https://daileyengineering.com/ford/ford-fe-cammer/
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The system that Dailey Engineering makes looks pretty sharp. Not sure if anyone on here has ever used one. I called kicking the tires on pricing before, as I recall it was $5K.
https://daileyengineering.com/ford/ford-fe-cammer/
I've used them on SBFs. Don't really see the extra expense for them though. The only benefit is the pump mounts on top of the pan, but I don't see that being that big of a pro for the money involved.
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Next round....
Got the cylinder heads on, intake adapter scribed for port matching, and pushrod clearance checked.
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In Jay's instructions, he says to make sure that the special stud nut doesn't bottom out on the stud before the gasket is fully compressed. This is done by torquing the head down, then removing one nut at a time and using the depth gauge part of dial calipers to make sure that the distance from the end of the stud down to the washer is less than .800". I had a few close ones, but they were all under .800".
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Was also waiting on the rocker sub-bar shims from Jay. He sent them this past Monday and they took forever to get here. The reason why is because the contents was lost on the way and the box showed up empty. Thanks USPS.
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Not much to report, but had to take some things back apart (always a fun time). I'm using an Aviaid dry sump setup and pretty much everything interferes with the FE Power timing cover. The setup, if you use the passenger side mount, uses a couple of bolts from the passenger side of the timing cover and the FE Power cover is taller/thicker there. So, I had to send the pump and pump mount back and switch it to the driver's side.
In addition, Aviaid uses a sort of proprietary drive system, which uses a pulley that's been fabricated into the balancer spacer. Since the FE Power timing cover can use a SBF seal, there's a large boss that sticks out past the timing cover for that purpose. This interferes with the gear on the Aviaid spacer (can't push it on far enough), so I had to mill the boss down.
Making progress though, hope to have a lot more progress made this week. Jay sent me some rocker spacers so that I finalize the geometry and I've got everything there bolted down solid.
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Another update (fun stuff):
Got dry sump pump back from Aviaid. Had it switched to driver's side mount. They put the wrong thickness of pump body section in it, so it doesn't fit their driver's side pump mounting block. It was a full bolt hole off. Emails were ignored. Couldn't just drill and tap new holes because it would have broken into the existing holes, so I had to buy some aluminum studs, Loctite them in, then drill and tap new holes.
With the pump mounted up, two things then became glaringly obvious: 1. The pump pulley is dangerously close to the water pump inlet. Nothing I can do about that (Aviaid wanted me to cut the inlet off the pump), so I just decided to use an electric water pump. 2. The driver's side pump mount is sorta like a oil filter adapter, but it serves as a mount and an oil inlet with a -10 fitting. The -10 fitting is so close to the dry sump pump body that you can't hook a hose to it.
Tried to move forward with the electric water pump. Jay had adapters in stock, but CVR was out of pumps.
Luckily, I had sent a customer of mine a universal pump body several months ago and he wasn't using it, so I got it from him and will send him a new one when they become available again.
Good times.
I will tell you, Aviaid, IMO, makes one of the best dry sump pumps out there. IMO, it's a step above the Petersen pumps and will instantly pull about 15" of vacuum on the crankcase as soon as you fire the engine up, if it's sealed up good.
However, their mounting systems and oil pan fabrication techniques stink. Oil pan easily bolted up on the driver's side. None of the passenger side bolts would start in the block.
Oh well, onward and upward.
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So, must you make a pump spacer to allow the #10 line to be installed?
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So, must you make a pump spacer to allow the #10 line to be installed?
Can't do much there, or it throws off the C/L between the pump and the crank, then you get into trying to find different belts, shimming the pump, etc. The mounting block/inlet uses a 1/2" NPT fitting, so I think I can get an extended length 1/2" NPT to -10 AN adapter.
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I actively avoid Aviad stuff when possible. The Cobra pans seem OK as long as you don't mind redrilling half the mounting holes. I have a Cleveland pan that was so far off square (1/8" plus) that you could see it from across the room. Did not fit the car by over an inch. Called, send pictures, emailed them, and they told me it was the car and that I was wrong. Fixed it with a welder.
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745 peak hp. No idea at what rpm, ( not enough cam specs which is fine cuz then I can’t get it wrong)
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About got her finished up. Made up all of the AN hoses and primed the pump yesterday. Not a drop of oil from anywhere, so that's always a good sign. Showed about 90 psi on the gauge.
Running .904" diameter BAM solid roller lifters. Had to groove them as usual, just takes a few seconds with a Dremel and then you can get oil up through the pushrods.
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A couple of build notes:
1. I always try to use the biggest diameter pushrods that I can. In this case, a 7/16" heavy wall intake pushrod and a 1/2" heavy wall exhaust pushrod. There is plenty of clearance inside of the intake adapter itself, but the 1/2" exhaust pushrod basically touches the intake manifold bolt on the middle four cylinders. Will have to put the bolts on the lathe and turn down the threads in the middle of the bolt and then we'll have clearance.
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2. I'm running about 680 lbs of open spring load on this one. Turning it over, it feels like it's a lot more. Anytime I'm assembling an engine with over 600 lbs of spring load, I go from my standard 1/2" drive ratchet to my 24" 1/2" drive ratchet. Even with it, it turns over a little harder than what I'm used to. Engine had about 10 lb-ft of rotating drag without the rockers on, so there's not an issue with the engine itself, but in speaking with Jay, we both agreed that the intake rocker arm probably contributes to the extra load. There's a pretty big moment arm on the intake rocker, since it's offset so far.
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Completely lost contact with my customer, haven't heard from him since around the end of September, so fingers crossed that he will pop up soon....I'd like to get this one out the door.
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Hey Brent, nice job on the build. Sorry to hear the customer has ghosted you. Hopfuly he will be in touch with you soon.
Was wondering if it looked like there would be any possibility to run a 1/2" pushrod on the intake side as well with some doable modifications ? I'll be running some monster spring pressure's and had hoped to be able to use 1/2" dbl tapered across the board. Haven't made it that far with mock up yet, Haven't even had the engine unwrapped in a month or so due to my work schedule as of late but will be back on it soon as I got some off time built up for the holidays.
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I think you’ll just have to mock it up and see what it’s like for you, depending on how much port work you’ve done to the intake adapter. I think on mine, another .030” on one side would hit.
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Hey Brent, nice job on the build. Sorry to hear the customer has ghosted you. Hopfuly he will be in touch with you soon.
Was wondering if it looked like there would be any possibility to run a 1/2" pushrod on the intake side as well with some doable modifications ? I'll be running some monster spring pressure's and had hoped to be able to use 1/2" dbl tapered across the board. Haven't made it that far with mock up yet, Haven't even had the engine unwrapped in a month or so due to my work schedule as of late but will be back on it soon as I got some off time built up for the holidays.
Keith, I think a 1/2" intake pushrod with your intake adapter will be pretty tight. I may have a solution though. One of the things I discovered, with the help of one of my customers, is that when running a hydraulic roller lifter there was not enough pushrod clearance on the intake side. This is because the pushrod seat in the hydraulic roller lifters is about half an inch higher than the pushrod seat on a solid roller or flat tappet lifter. This put a little more angle on the intake pushrod, and caused an interference issue.
As a result of this I've designed a different port configuration on the intake adapter for hydraulic roller applications. The ports feature a small bump in the interior where the intake pushrod goes by, with a correspondingly deeper cut outside of the port for more pushrod clearance.
There's no reason that you couldn't use one of these intake adapters, which would provide additional clearance for 1/2" pushrods. The only downside is that the bumps on the interior of the ports reduce the port cross section in that area. Of course you would rather not have that, but its not a big difference from the standard intake adapters and you may want to consider it a tradeoff, depending on how important you think the larger diameter pushrod is.
Hope that helps - Jay
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Just an observation.
Why on earth would anyone need a 1/2" diameter pushrod with a hydro roller cam?
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Thanks for the info Jay. Unfortunately I have already put a good bit of work into the adapter I have, matching the intake side and cylinder head side up nicely so I'm probably gonna go with what I got. I'll get it mocked up this weekend and see what I have. Both trend and manton offer neck down (7/16×1/2) push rods so that could be an option.
Nothing to it but to do it. Thanks for the input guys.
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Just an observation.
Why on earth would anyone need a 1/2" diameter pushrod with a hydro roller cam?
Not sure who you're talking to, but my engine is a solid roller.
If you were talking to Jay, he didn't say a hydraulic roller needed a 1/2" pushrod, he's saying that he's making intake adapters for hydraulic roller engines because the pushrod angle is different on hydraulic roller lifters and it may help Keith out if he's having trouble fitting a 1/2" pushrod in his solid roller engine.
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Not sure who you're talking to, but my engine is a solid roller.
If you were talking to Jay, he didn't say a hydraulic roller needed a 1/2" pushrod, he's saying that he's making intake adapters for hydraulic roller engines because the pushrod angle is different on hydraulic roller lifters and it may help Keith out if he's having trouble fitting a 1/2" pushrod in his solid roller engine.
I certainly wasn't referencing your build - very nice build by the way.
Jays post mentioned more clearance for big push rods when running hydro rollers with his high port heads and manifold adapter. I had no idea people would use these highly capable and high flowing heads with a hydro roller.
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I’ve spec’d several hydraulic rollers for Jays customers with these heads. Even at .600-.650” lift, the heads do really well.
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I assume the hydro roller customers with Jay's heads are using titanium valves.
Love to see more of these builds (with Jay's heads)
Jay's dyno testing was very cool. Like to see others as well.
Are you dynoing the 511 with the FE Power heads?
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I assume the hydro roller customers with Jay's heads are using titanium valves.
Love to see more of these builds (with Jay's heads)
Jay's dyno testing was very cool. Like to see others as well.
Are you dynoing the 511 with the FE Power heads?
Stainless valves.
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I'm one of the deviants doing a build with Jay's heads and a hydraulic roller, and I agree that it perhaps doesn't make a ton of sense from almost any perspective. Except for coolness factor. Honestly though, the motor I built back in 2003 has e-brock heads that were ported to within an inch of their lives by an outfit that doesn't post here...couple that godawful port velocity with a lousy cam choice, and you get a lazy, frustrating engine. So Jay's heads, and especially his cross-ram intake gave me a great excuse for a do-over.
I've documented the entire build in pictures which I will post once I have the upper intake. Jay did revise the lower intake to accommodate the slight but significant intake pushrod angle difference secondary to the higher pushrod cup of hydraulic rollers. As always, Jay has been incredibly meticulous and responsive in resolving an issue that is unlikely to make up a large portion of his business.
And it fits perfectly.
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I'm one of the deviants doing a build with Jay's heads and a hydraulic roller, and I agree that it perhaps doesn't make a ton of sense from almost any perspective. Except for coolness factor. Honestly though, the motor I built back in 2003 has e-brock heads that were ported to within an inch of their lives by an outfit that doesn't post here...couple that godawful port velocity with a lousy cam choice, and you get a lazy, frustrating engine. So Jay's heads, and especially his cross-ram intake gave me a great excuse for a do-over.
I've documented the entire build in pictures which I will post once I have the upper intake. Jay did revise the lower intake to accommodate the slight but significant intake pushrod angle difference secondary to the higher pushrod cup of hydraulic rollers. As always, Jay has been incredibly meticulous and responsive in resolving an issue that is unlikely to make up a large portion of his business.
And it fits perfectly.
It actually makes a lot of sense. A head that flows ~370 cfm at just .600" lift makes for a great street head. Not only do you get performance, but you get to do it with a very mild camshaft. Takes less duration and less fuss.
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You have actually hit on one of the reasons why I did these heads. I wanted to be able to build a 600+HP 390 stroker engine with a very mild cam. I've got one here that I just haven't put together yet, but when I get a chance to do it I plan to start with a fairly strong cam, and then back the cam down in steps to see just how small I can go and still make 600 HP. Should be fun, and hopefully eye opening...
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You can put me in the deviant class also. Deviant with a purpose as Brent and Jay explained. My build is a ways off but looking forward to diving in.