Author Topic: Big intake valve in small bore.  (Read 12624 times)

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jayb

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 08:51:00 AM »
I'm not convinced that the biggest valve that will fit is always the best, Jay.  But, I'm not a cylinder head porter, and I do believe flow numbers are meaningful, especially if tested on a bore tube that matches the cylinder bore.  And like you said there are other considerations like shrouding, notching, and leaving room for an effective exhaust valve. 

In general, it seems like the trend is towards using the available space for a larger intake valve and a smaller exhaust valve.  At least compared to 20 years ago.

paulie

Paulie, I didn't mean to suggest that the biggest valve that you can make fit is always the best approach.  What I was trying to say was the biggest valve that results in a meaningful flow increase over the next smaller size is the best way to go.  This is why I buy single valves of different sizes and have my local shop flow test them on test ports before I make a decision on the valve size.  For what its worth, I have not seen one case where the bigger valve did not provide a meaningful increase in flow.  But, bear in mind that I always try to run the maximum bore size on my max effort engines, like the high riser (4.375" bore) and the SOHC (4.500" bore).  I doubt that a 2.300" intake valve would work well on a 390 bore size.

One other comment is that I believe you are correct regarding the trend towards bigger intakes and smaller exhaust valves.  On my SOHC, I'm leaving the 1.900" exhaust valve in place while increasing the size of the intake on my new heads.  My tests over the summer with header primary tube sizes really convinced me that smaller is better there, so sticking with a smaller exhaust valve and increasing the size of the intake to maximize flow makes a lot of sense to me.  I still can't believe that my SOHC made nearly 1000 HP with 2" OD primary tubes on the headers. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2015, 01:58:28 PM »
This is out of left field and has little to add to the conversation, but regarding the SOHC, it would be cool to see a redesigned head using 2 intakes and 2 exhaust valves. Since its a proven design in all modern performance engines to keep velocity high and retain lots of flow with more moderate lifts, and there's certainly enough room, it would be a pretty impressive set-up I'd think. Of course reality of design and development costs makes it an impossibility, but it would still be cool.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

gordonr390

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2015, 02:57:08 PM »
    Most anytime increasing compression considerably and running a cam with an earlier ex opening time with stock sized exhaust valves you probably are leaving power on the table. The stock exhaust valve sizing was engineered around a later opening and earlier closing in the effort to evacuate the exhaust gases for a larger combustion area as compared to a small combustion area (high comp)with an exhaust that opens earlier and stays open longer. To take advantage of the blow down circuit and keep ex speeds up the ex valve and seat should be smaller. Possibly with a larger choke %.


   

plovett

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2015, 07:30:02 PM »
I'm not convinced that the biggest valve that will fit is always the best, Jay.  But, I'm not a cylinder head porter, and I do believe flow numbers are meaningful, especially if tested on a bore tube that matches the cylinder bore.  And like you said there are other considerations like shrouding, notching, and leaving room for an effective exhaust valve. 

In general, it seems like the trend is towards using the available space for a larger intake valve and a smaller exhaust valve.  At least compared to 20 years ago.

paulie

Paulie, I didn't mean to suggest that the biggest valve that you can make fit is always the best approach.  What I was trying to say was the biggest valve that results in a meaningful flow increase over the next smaller size is the best way to go.  This is why I buy single valves of different sizes and have my local shop flow test them on test ports before I make a decision on the valve size.  For what its worth, I have not seen one case where the bigger valve did not provide a meaningful increase in flow.  But, bear in mind that I always try to run the maximum bore size on my max effort engines, like the high riser (4.375" bore) and the SOHC (4.500" bore).  I doubt that a 2.300" intake valve would work well on a 390 bore size.

One other comment is that I believe you are correct regarding the trend towards bigger intakes and smaller exhaust valves.  On my SOHC, I'm leaving the 1.900" exhaust valve in place while increasing the size of the intake on my new heads.  My tests over the summer with header primary tube sizes really convinced me that smaller is better there, so sticking with a smaller exhaust valve and increasing the size of the intake to maximize flow makes a lot of sense to me.  I still can't believe that my SOHC made nearly 1000 HP with 2" OD primary tubes on the headers.

I'm with ya on the big valve thing, Jay.   I know you have some big bore motors.   I would too, if I could swing it.   :'(

That's interesting about the exhaust sizing, both valves and header primaries.  It's not that the exhaust is not important, but I think in general it's less critical to have it optimized than the intake side.  385 series Fords have horrible factory exhaust ports, but very capable intake ports, and they easily run with BBC's despite the BBC's much better exhaust ports.    I guess I feel like if your exhaust port/valve/header is off of optimum by say, 20%, it only affects the power by 5%.  But if your intake port/valve/manifold is off of optimum by 20% it affects the power by 20%.  I'm making up numbers and speaking in generalizations, but that's kind of how I feel.

I wonder if testing exhaust ports at a different vacuum than the intake ports would be beneficial?  The exhaust port is helped by all that combustion pressure so maybe testing it at 28" is not the best way.  Maybe testing exhaust ports at a higher vacuum would give a clearer picture of it's capabilities.  Heck, I believe even intake ports see a much greater maximum pressure differential than 28".

JMO,

paulie

plovett

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2015, 07:43:53 PM »
Paulie...

I suppose I used the wrong choice of words, or interpreted the OP's question incorrectly.

Let me rephrase.

I have never seen where a 2.190" valve has been a detriment to flow on this particular bore size and engine scenario.  Ratios and percentages are nice to look at, but if you're going to look at any, look at the valve vs throat ratio and the intake flow vs exhaust flow ratio. 

As for low and mid lift flow numbers, the valve job has just as much to do with this than anything else.   The primary angle is key here.  You are correct that the low lift numbers help everywhere.  As soon as you crack the valve open, you want stuff to start moving.

I'm following you, Brent.  And I trust your experience.  I'm kind of anal retentive when it comes to cylinder heads, yet I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that my current heads don't have an "optimum" valve size.  I also understand that it might not be cost or time effective to test a cylinder head with 3 different intake valves with just very small size differences.

I totally agree about the importance of valve jobs. 

Do you have a valve to throat ratio range that you like?   

paulie

plovett

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2015, 07:46:19 PM »
This is out of left field and has little to add to the conversation, but regarding the SOHC, it would be cool to see a redesigned head using 2 intakes and 2 exhaust valves. Since its a proven design in all modern performance engines to keep velocity high and retain lots of flow with more moderate lifts, and there's certainly enough room, it would be a pretty impressive set-up I'd think. Of course reality of design and development costs makes it an impossibility, but it would still be cool.

Didn't Ford have 3 valve OHC 427?  At least a prototype?  The "Caliope"?

paulie

Nightmist66

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2015, 08:38:48 PM »
This is out of left field and has little to add to the conversation, but regarding the SOHC, it would be cool to see a redesigned head using 2 intakes and 2 exhaust valves. Since its a proven design in all modern performance engines to keep velocity high and retain lots of flow with more moderate lifts, and there's certainly enough room, it would be a pretty impressive set-up I'd think. Of course reality of design and development costs makes it an impossibility, but it would still be cool.

Didn't Ford have 3 valve OHC 427?  At least a prototype?  The "Caliope"?

paulie
[/quote]

The Caliope had two camshafts in the block, vertically stacked.

http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/exotics.html

Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Nightmist66

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015, 09:18:38 PM »
This is out of left field and has little to add to the conversation, but regarding the SOHC, it would be cool to see a redesigned head using 2 intakes and 2 exhaust valves. Since its a proven design in all modern performance engines to keep velocity high and retain lots of flow with more moderate lifts, and there's certainly enough room, it would be a pretty impressive set-up I'd think. Of course reality of design and development costs makes it an impossibility, but it would still be cool.

I'm always in left field, so I'll join you on this one. There was a company called Dominion that made 32V heads for both the sbc and sbf.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-9810-dominion-four-valve-cylinder-head-performance-test/

The SBF:


Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

ChiefDanGeorge

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2015, 05:45:08 AM »
An interesting Drive video about exhausts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTARjxiqlo
Much more complicated than my simple brain thought.

cjshaker

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2015, 08:54:34 AM »
This is out of left field and has little to add to the conversation, but regarding the SOHC, it would be cool to see a redesigned head using 2 intakes and 2 exhaust valves. Since its a proven design in all modern performance engines to keep velocity high and retain lots of flow with more moderate lifts, and there's certainly enough room, it would be a pretty impressive set-up I'd think. Of course reality of design and development costs makes it an impossibility, but it would still be cool.

Didn't Ford have 3 valve OHC 427?  At least a prototype?  The "Caliope"?

paulie

Yes, but the issue with that engine was it still used the cam-in-block design. Since the SOHC is an overhead design, it would be much easier to take advantage of it. There was a dual overhead cam 427 Cammer dragster that was posted here some time back that would have been an even bigger advantage and easier to adapt during the development process. I guess that's getting a little in the 'exotic' area though and way off base. That DOHC Cammer was pretty cool though.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

jayb

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2015, 10:36:08 AM »
    Most anytime increasing compression considerably and running a cam with an earlier ex opening time with stock sized exhaust valves you probably are leaving power on the table. The stock exhaust valve sizing was engineered around a later opening and earlier closing in the effort to evacuate the exhaust gases for a larger combustion area as compared to a small combustion area (high comp)with an exhaust that opens earlier and stays open longer. To take advantage of the blow down circuit and keep ex speeds up the ex valve and seat should be smaller. Possibly with a larger choke %.

That is a very insightful comment.  Never thought about it that way...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

gordonr390

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2015, 07:14:48 PM »
    Most anytime increasing compression considerably and running a cam with an earlier ex opening time with stock sized exhaust valves you probably are leaving power on the table. The stock exhaust valve sizing was engineered around a later opening and earlier closing in the effort to evacuate the exhaust gases for a larger combustion area as compared to a small combustion area (high comp)with an exhaust that opens earlier and stays open longer. To take advantage of the blow down circuit and keep ex speeds up the ex valve and seat should be smaller. Possibly with a larger choke %.

That is a very insightful comment.  Never thought about it that way...


Thanks for the kind comment "jayb".

fekbmax

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2015, 09:13:48 AM »
OK so here's my situation.
 I have the set of Kuntz/cnc heads that are pretty much ready to just be put together, they were done with the 2.250 valve and the ultimate plans for these heads are for the pond block engine I will be starting on in the late fall early winter next year. I would really like to make the FE reunion in April/16  though with my garden engine and if I could someway use these heads it would make it much more of a possibility that I would be able to be ready with the garden test mule engine by then.  As Brent said, a 2.200 will work just fine. Now how about a 2.250 ? I know its maybe not the best idea as far as flow and optimal performance but I have bolted up the heads torqued with a thin shim gasket and I know the 2.250 valve also physically fits al be it very close but I does fit. My question is this,
Should I go with it with the 2.250 valves, ? If they will work I only need to open up my valve relief's in the pistons slightly, an easy task.
 Should I pop some oversized seats in and stick the 2.150's back in ,? Would that be messing the head up to much and making it to when I went back to the 2.250's that I had adversely hurt the original work that had been done ? I know there would be some blending that needed done on the back side but that wouldn't be a huge problem.
I'm just throwing around things in my head and would much rather get some of you guys opinion's before I make a decision.
The $cost$ and time saved by changing valves is way less than all the work that still needs to be done to get the old Dove heads together and ready for the test mule .
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

jayb

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2015, 10:18:07 AM »
If you've got the heads ready to go with the big valves, and they fit without any clearance issues, I'd go ahead with those.  They may not be ideal for your existing combination, but I doubt that they will hurt it any...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ScotiaFE

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Re: Big intake valve in small bore.
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2015, 10:19:56 AM »
The seats will not just pop out and in and back out and then back in.
There will be cutting and fitting and time consuming machine time.
Unless you have the machine to do it, then disregard. ;)