Solid roller lifters worth it in a street car?

[drdano]

I've got a new long block 428 I'm assembling that is very similar to the 410hp 428 dyno mule in Jays book with the following exceptions: 282s cam with regular solid lifters, C4AE-G heads with good bowl work and 3-angle, unported RPM intake, comp roller rockers.  The rest of the forged internals and +0.030 bore is the same more or less. 

I'm wondering if a move to solid roller lifters would have any real power benefit on this motor, or is it really not worth the cost?  Would the comp valve springs need changed if moving to a roller lifter, or are the ones matched to the cam good with rollers as well?

Finally, has anyone got any good data for a brand of lifter that has a decent life expectancy in a street car?  Crower, Comp Endure-x, Je$$el?

[jayb]

You know, of course, that you can't run roller lifters on that 282S cam, right?  Roller cams are different than flat tappet cams.

If you are considering a change to a roller cam, I'd recommend Crower for the lifters.  Since you will be running on the street, get the HIPPO option, which pressure feeds the needle bearings in the roller wheels of the lifter, making them long lasting on the street.  I can't say that I've ever worn out a Crower roller lifter.  For the cam you are going to select for that motor, it will probably be a pretty mild roller cam, but you will still need different springs than the flat tappet cam, and be sure the rest of your valvetrain is up to snuff, including end stands for the rocker shafts.

[drdano]

Ah, that's right.  Total brain fart on my behalf, thanks for the correction.  Valve train wise, it has FPP hardened shafts, ARP studs, Comp 1046 rockers and billet stands with end stand supports.

I'll look into what mechanical roller cams they offer and see if one might fit the bill for what I've got.  The Grinch gave us Who's some xmas spending cash for selling our souls to the company this year, figured I'd see if there was a good place to invest that in the motor while it's apart.  Maybe there is somewhere else the money would be better spend in pursuit of more power?

[cammerfe]

I believe I read recently that there is an Isky solid roller lifter that uses a bushing instead of needle bearings. They are supposedly quite indestructable. If I were in the market, I'd at least look into this story.

Ken

[machoneman]

Why not use a hydraulic roller cam instead? Since your build isn't max effort, a hydro roller would allow good hp and the benefit of installing it and forgetting it. With any solid roller cam, one would be wise to regularly pop the covers to check valve lash which I'll be the first to admit was fun when I was in my twenties. Now it would be a pain the butt for sure!

The Isky idea sounds good too but I know of no one who has run them and few references show up in muscle car blogs. No idea on the cost either.

http://www.iskycams.com/RedZoneAdLR.pdf

[afret]

Looks like Lunati has a high RPM hydraulic roller lifter listed in their 2012 catalog.  Might be worth a look if you want to try a hydraulic roller.

[Barry_R]

If you're gonna spend the engine's life under 6000 a hydraulic roller is a better choice than a solid one.

[Ford428CJ]

With any solid roller cam, one would be wise to regularly pop the covers to check valve lash which I'll be the first to admit was fun when I was in my twenties. Now it would be a pain the butt for sure!

The Isky idea sounds good too but I know of no one who has run them and few references show up in muscle car blogs. No idea on the cost either.

http://www.iskycams.com/RedZoneAdLR.pdf

I had the old school Crower Solid Roller Lifters and drove my 428 as a daily driver. I went a 1 1/2 to almost 2 years before adjusting again! That also includes a 4,000mile round trip during that same time too. Longs as you have a good valve train set-up.... It shouldn't be an issue really. JMHO

[jayb]

I'll second what Wes said about the solid rollers; if you have a decent valvetrain and a fairly mild roller cam, regular adjustments are few and far between.  Also, my experience with hydraulic rollers was not a pleasant one, although it has been about six years since I've run them.  On the dyno I saw inconsistencies in the HP and torque curves starting as low as 5000 RPM with the hydraulic rollers, and first time through with the engine the valvetrain was done by 5500 RPM.  On my third trip back to the dyno with this setup, after increasing the valve spring seat pressure a bunch, I was able to go to 6200 with the hydraulic rollers.  But it was a chore getting this sorted out.

My hydraulic rollers were Crane's and of course there are other brands available now that may be better.  Also, looking at Barry's data from several recent hydraulic roller builds, it sounds like the setup is indeed sorted out to at least 6000 RPM.  My advice would be to make sure you contact somebody who knows what they are doing (like Barry) if you are going to run hydraulic roller lifters; otherwise, you may be disappointed in the results.

And now a question:  Back when I was running hydraulic roller lifters, there was no difference between hydraulic roller and solid roller cams; a roller cam could be used with either type of lifter.  Has that changed now?  Are there cam profiles that REQUIRE the use of a hydraulic roller lifter?

[RICK LAKE]

DrDano DANO Here's my thoughts and small amount of knowledge on this idea,
If you want to run solid lifters fine, Adjustments should only needed to be done once a year and then just a check with good parts.
like any motor built, matching camshaft,lifters, compression, carb, valve springs, exhaust, and fuel are needed toget max power.
RPM range and limit, IMP biggest issues of all. If you are going with a street motor than will get some 5,000 rpm and above to 6,000
shifting but spend 95% of the time cruising in the idle to 3,000 rpms, there is no reason for solids. Solids also take a beating at idle of a motor.
This is where the most damage is done. We call it valve lash, I call it hammering. The oil if in the proper locate on the camshaft lobe helps cushion
the valve lash. At idle you have low pressure and less splash to help lube the valve train. On some motors we used to but .010" grroove in the bores of the lifters to have a drip of oil hit the lobe on the camshaft before the roller of the lifter hit the same mark. This did help extend the life of the solids.
 I think that you also need to look at valve springs and how must pressure you really needs verses what the motor wants for a max rpm. I have been running beehive springs for 12 years. No failures of the valve springs with a .587-.607" lift hydro roller camshaft. At max lift my pressure is 362 and still will turn the motor to 6,200 max. I do get a float at 5,800 rpms but have stopped the major power drop by limiting the plunger in the lifters to be depressed only .015". When the motor is hot, I have about .003" of plunger depression, just enough to stop clicking of rocker and pushrods.  The lifters pump up and the power doesn't fall off as quick. I do run HVHP oil pump with 100# spring. The high oil pressure turn the hydro lifters into almost a solid setup without going solid. If you are looking for every last HP, not TORQUE go solid and don't let the car idle. A 30-40 oil pressure with a hot motor would also be a good idea. I know some guys are idling their motor with 10 psi and thats for the bottom end, I doubt there is any pressure but a dribble going to the rocker arms. I don't know about how good it is to swap a hydro lifter on to a solid lifter camshaft. I have heard stories both ways for good and bad. Due to some of the breakin and oil problems, can't be 90% sure on this topic. Rick L. P.s good luck with setup

[drdano]

Here is a breakdown of the engine and car.  What I'd like is some recommendations for solid roller cam and hydraulic roller cam and matching lifters, if you all would be so kind:

'62 Galaxie wagon
~4200lbs or so according to literature I've read, never had it actually weighed
4.11 9" rear gear, 4 pinion posi
26" tall tire (may go bigger slightly in the rear down the road)
TKO600 5-speed
428 +.030
TRW L2303 Forged pistons, 10.3:1 CR my machinist says
C4AE-G heads, nicely pocket ported, good 3-angle with CJ valves
FRP moly shafts, 1046 Comp roller rockers, ARP rocker studs, billet stands and supports (you are going to send those back to me, right Barry?    )
Sanderson Shorty Headers
2.5" exhaust with 3" x-pipe, 2.5" porter steel pack mufflers (probably soon to be replaced by magnaflows or dynaflow)
750 quadrajet with ported 4 hole 1" spacer ( may upgrade to 800 unit with this motor if it wants it)
Unported Edel RPM intake (may port it, dunno yet)
Duraspark dizzy, CDI ignition, Blaster 2 coil


Car will mostly be around town thrashing, canyon cruising and a few longer trips each year out of town to places like Bonneville for Speed Week.  I'd like to occasionally take the car to the drag strip for some entertainment, I know it will be a slow barge, but what the hell.  Just good all around hot rod.  I seriously don't mind adjusting lifters, been there done that with my old y-block and it was fun. 

So lets hear the recommendations.  I've seen Jay suggests the Crower HiPPo lifters for the solids, what matching cam would work good?

[jayb]

For that combination you'd want a lot of midrange, so I'd be looking at a Comp Cams high energy street roller profile.  Their lobe 1476 has duration of 244@ .050", and .641" lift with the FE rocker ratio.  Advertised duration is 288.  I'd probably use that lobe on both intake and exhaust, with a 110 degree lobe separation, and degree the cam in so the intake centerline is at 105.  This will give you about 8:1 DCR, which should be safe for pump gas with your iron heads and still make good power.

One thing I would be careful of is a guess on your static compression ratio.  Get the data on that, don't just trust what your machinist says.  Have the chambers cc'd so that you know their volume, and get the data on the pistons so you know how many ccs are in the eyebrows or dish.  You need to be confident of your compression ratio if you are going to pick the right cam.

[drdano]

Jay, Would that 1476 cam be a solid or hydraulic roller cam?  The info I read on the TRW pistons is -10.3cc for the dish and 4 valve reliefs, does that sound about right?  They were not machined in the dish, so they should be close to out of the box.  I can CC the heads easy enough, I'll see about doing that this week.  I'm also at 5000' elevation, does that change anything?

[jayb]

Your hydraulic or solid roller cam question gets back to my cam question from earlier in the thread.  Back when I was experimenting with hydraulic roller cams, they were the same as the solid cams in terms of ramps, which is where you normally would see a difference between a solid and hydraulic cam.  As far as I know they are still the same, so any roller cam can work with either a hydraulic roller lifter or a solid roller lifter.  Perhaps something has changed on this now, but if you look at the lobe catalog from Comp cams, they don't list any roller cam as a solid or a hydraulic.  They list hydraulic flat tappet lobes, solid flat tappet lobes, and roller lobes, and that's it.

At 5000 feet you have less atmospheric pressure, so you will make less HP than you would at sea level.  But in terms of selecting the cam, unless you are targeting a specific power number, I don't think it will make a difference.  If you decide to increase duration over what you would select at sea level, you will make more power, but I would think that you would also be subject to the downside of the increased duration, from a drivability perspective.  Being at 900 feet I don't have a lot of high altitude experience; maybe there's some rule of thumb that others use for this?

[Ford428CJ]

A little insight to my roller cam living. First off, mine spent a lot of time driving and idling around town. Here is a trick for solids living out on the street!

1) Setting up the block for running Hydro lifters. Do not restricted the oil galley to the lifters!

2) Run your lash tight! I would set mine cold with Iron Heads with .014In and .016Ex with aluminum rockers.

3) A good valve train. I ran Comp Roller Rockers with FPP end stands and a good set of push rods. Works well with a small roller set-up.

I had a TON of street miles on mine.... By the thousands. Thats no joke! My cam was .565lift on a 110. Dur @.050 was 228 & 234. Small but worked very well in a heavy car or a 4 wheel drive! JMHO